• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

Status
Not open for further replies.

flyinfilipino

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
4,319
Location
North Carolina
There really aren't that many 3rd party characters who have a long history with Nintendo, just Megaman and Bomberman. That's two more for Smash 4, all we need. When Smash 5 rolls around, if there aren't any new series introduced, THEN we can get Sonic/Megaman more reps and add more 3rd party series like Castlevania and what not. Why then? The core series of Smash will all be heartily represented, there being no important/popular characters to add for the most part.
Why can't the rest of the core series (are you talking about adding K. Rool, Ridley, etc.?) and more third-party characters be added at the same time?

And once again, Snake proves that a long history with Nintendo is not necessary to get into Smash.
 

hippochinfat!!

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
1,814
Location
Toronto
For 3rd party they should just put in like every MGS character. You know what? Screw all the Nintendo characters, they should make a Metal Gear smash with every Metal Gear character in it. Even obscure characters from the first 2 games.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
Yes, there are "third party spots." Nintendo has to ask a different company each time they want to add a third party character. Why do you think we only got two (Heck, we almost didn't get Sonic)?
No, you don't get it.
Nintendo obviously doesn't ask anyone. There is no magic quota. Geno is 1st party in Sakurai's eyes so the only restriction in that case is rights.

Besides, Geno's from square, who have about a thousand other reps that would work better than him.
Yeah, but no one actually wants them. Here's the thing, "reps" was just as dumb when talking about Nintendo franchises as it is now. "Oh, Custom Robo needs a rep". No, it doesn't becuase no one likes Custom Robo that much. "We need a Square-Enix rep" No, we don't becuase there is no character who is popular from there. And while I'm at it

Megaman is the only third party who is popular. All others have low request and certainly not enough to actually be playable.
No, he's a retro character from one game where he wasn't the main character, and he's a third party, making it more difficult to include him. Why waste all the effort?
Because people want him. Ike is the main character from one game with 10 bazillion characters who are more original and probably more deserving then Ike. Why is Ike in? Because people like him!

This is a concept everyone missed. Most of the roster got in becuase people wanted them. ZSS, Pokemon Trainer, ROB and Snake were the only characters who were not highly requested. Geno has something over most characters. People asked for Sonic, and Sakurai went thought the trouble of adding him. Sonic was just insanely popular in one region, but Geno is very popular worldwide. He is one of the most requested characters. I don't think it's a problem.

Not to mention that while he was not the main character, he was just as important as the rest of your cast.

Ridley?:confused:

Anyway, how does a limited poll where the results are influenced by Sakurai have any bearing on popularity?
First of all, what is confusing? Geno is up there with Ridley. Trust me, Geno is pretty ****ing popular. Take a look at the poll done here a while back. That dude was requested a LOT.

Also, these are what the top 10 most popular characters were. It didn't come from the poll.

And? Mario is the main character of Mario RPG, and you CANNOT deny that. The game sold well? Mario's already in Brawl.
What is the point?
Ike is extremely important, as he's been the main character in 2 games. Geno's been the main character in 0. Lucas was the main in Mother 3.
Mother 3 sold 300k and was only in one region. Ike's games probably meet that. Geno was a major character in a game that had higher sales COMBINED.
Now, explain to me how an obscure retro character who's been a side-character in only one game compare to someone like Paper Mario, a relatively more famous character who's been the main in THREE GAMES, which are part of an ongoing series?
Again, Paper Mario isn't that popular. He is a minor character who people think is popular. Data shows he's not. Not to mention it contradicts yourself. Mario is already in Brawl.

Here are two point that summarize the entire thing
1)Since 64, all the characters added into Smash have been second bananans, obscure characters and villains. Olimar, Snake and Sonic are the exception to the rule. 64 had all the major Nintendo characters. All other characters will fall into one of these three groups. Marth is the odd ball as he is only obscure to us.
2)Popularity is the major determining factor. 9 of the top 10 most wanted characters (by Japanese fans) are in Brawl. There are a total of 16 characters, and Snake, ROB, ZSS and Pokemon Trainer were surprises, which is typical of a Smash game. The other were popular in the west (Sonic, Wario, Pit and I'm not sure who was last). As you can see, popular characters are what makes up the roster. So, if this is true, Geno is a sure bet.

Your argument is importance. Geno was a major character in his game. People REALLY want him. He can have a moveset. He hits the three pillars. The only one stopping him is Sakurai.
 

OmegaXXII

Fire Emblem Lord/ Trophy Hunter
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
21,469
Location
Houston, Texas!
For 3rd party they should just put in like every MGS character. You know what? Screw all the Nintendo characters, they should make a Metal Gear smash with every Metal Gear character in it. Even obscure characters from the first 2 games.
this would be like sweet, I can see it now Liquid Snake against Snake in the Underground Maintenance Base, but as fun as this sounds, NO.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
koopa cape located at the end of rainbow road
Paper Mario sales and reception:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_mario#Reception

Mario RPG sales and reception:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_mario_rpg#Reception

notice how paper mario got better reviews and sold more copies then mario rpg. So i guess that makes super mario rpg (and i guess geno too) less popular then paper mario.




On another note. As far as third-party characters go, i don't think they will go crazy and add 5,4,3 or even 2 more in the next smash. I think we should be happy if we even get one more thrid-party character.
 

PassWurD

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
434
Location
'Fore the day I die, I'ma touch the sky
Sorry that I don't use the quote button constantly, but my computer is extremely slow, and quick reply is much faster.

I only mentioned those villians because they were -some- of the most likely characters, and they were likely to be unlockable because they were villians and so that all the characters from the same series wouldn't be on the starting roster.

Those are the only villians I would consider adding, K. Rool, Black Shadow, Ridley, Mewtwo and -possibly- Bowser Jr. Do you think 5 newcomers is all we're getting for SSB4? Hardly. That's not exactly a wave of villians. My ideal roster of newcomers I think are likely (Everyone in Brawl returning, Ganon original moveset, Wolf original FS, Toon Link luigified):

36: New FE Lord
37: 5th Gen Pokemon
38: K. Rool
39: Black Shadow
40: Ridley
41: Mewtwo
42: Paper Mario/Bowser Jr.
43: Captain Rainbow/Other new series introduced before SSB4
44: Isaac/Other new series introducd before SSB4 (Isaac if his series gets a new game, otherwise old ray)
45: Ray 01/Other new series introducd before SSB4
46: Animal Crossing character
47: Retro character
48: "Shock" character
49: Megaman
50: Bomberman/Some other 3rd party character

If Mewtwo is coming back, than so is Roy :mad:
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
Paper Mario sales and reception:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_mario#Reception

Mario RPG sales and reception:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_mario_rpg#Reception

notice how paper mario got better reviews and sold more copies then mario rpg. So i guess that makes super mario rpg (and i guess geno too) less popular then paper mario.
You got me on the sales. My estimates for PM were much lower.

On another note. As far as third-party characters go, i don't think they will go crazy and add 5,4,3 or even 2 more in the next smash. I think we should be happy if we even get one more thrid-party character.
I agree, but, again, Sakurai doesn't count Geno as third party (he did come from a Mario game). He is exempt from the rules. He will be treated like a Nintendo character.
 

C.Olimar788

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
613
Location
Somewhere, most likely existent
If Mewtwo is coming back, than so is Roy :mad:
Why? Roy, quite frankly, was simply an advertisement in Melee. He had one Fire Emblem game, isn't particularly popular (any popularity he has is because of Melee pretty much) and isn't unique at all. We should get a unique third Fire Emblem character, not another swordsman, much less another swordsman who isn't even important at all.
 

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
8,998
Why? Roy, quite frankly, was simply an advertisement in Melee. He had one Fire Emblem game, isn't particularly popular (any popularity he has is because of Melee pretty much) and isn't unique at all. We should get a unique third Fire Emblem character, not another swordsman, much less another swordsman who isn't even important at all.
FE6 is quite popular. The inpopularity is a myth. Roy is also very important. He is by far the most important lord to the Elibe arc, so don't lie that he isn't important.
 

flyinfilipino

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
4,319
Location
North Carolina
On another note. As far as third-party characters go, i don't think they will go crazy and add 5,4,3 or even 2 more in the next smash. I think we should be happy if we even get one more thrid-party character.
The problem is that the pot of Nintendo All-Stars is running very low. Melee and Brawl have mostly been filling out the roster with sidekicks, rivals, and new installations of already representated series. Smash has never been all about representing every Nintendo-owned franchise. There are few "shoo-ins" left, and even most of those are debatable. Meanwhile, there are so many more characters that 3rd party companies can contribute, and this gate has already been opened in Brawl. This is the direction that I believe Smash is heading, as I don't believe it can continue being an addition of a healthy amount of Nintendo All-Stars any longer.
 

OmegaXXII

Fire Emblem Lord/ Trophy Hunter
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
21,469
Location
Houston, Texas!
I agree, but, again, Sakurai doesn't count Geno as third party (he did come from a Mario game). He is exempt from the rules. He will be treated like a Nintendo character.
oh, o_0, is that so? care to show me some proof where Sakurai stated this? because quite frankly Geno is partially owned by Square/Nintendo therefore he's technically a 3rd party character.
 

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
8,998
oh, o_0, is that so? care to show me some proof where Sakurai stated this? because quite frankly Geno is partially owned by Square/Nintendo therefore he's technically a 3rd party character.
Yeah, I would like to see some proof too, and not a fan-thread.
 

MasterWarlord

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
2,902
Location
Not wasting countless hours on a 10 man community
Adjectives:
1. Boring
2. Sexy
3. Intelligent
4. Lovable
5. Wild
6. Animated
7. Haphazard
8. Cute
9. Disturbing
10. Disgusting
11. Ugly
12. Beautiful
13. Gay
14. Manly
15. Hardworking
16. Common
17. Repetitive
18. Rare
19. Complicated
20. Bold
21. Clueless
22. Un-Natural
23. Awesome
24. Epic
25. Inspirational
26. Exciting
27. Lame
28. Believable
29. Religious
30. Unbelievable
31. Stereotypical
32. Overdone
33. Silly
34. ********
35. Idiotic
36. Special
37. Accomplished
38. Beastly
39. Heavy
40. Feminine
41. Social
42. Popular
43. Hated
44. Revolutionary
45. Creative
46. Delicious
47. Aged
48. Hot
49. Cool
50. Deadly
51. Dastardly
52. Fake
53. Bogus
54. Fresh
55. Mechanical
56. Organic
57. Evil
58. Good
59. Lawful
60. Chaotic
61. Broken
62. Powerful
63. Fast
64. Slow
65. Light
66. Dreamy
67. Visionary
68. Fascinating
69. Feral
70. Demonic
71. Extreme
72. Magical
73. Mystical
74. Unknown
75. Creepy
76. Neat
77. Clean
78. Furry
79. Sexual
80. Godly
81. Relaxing
82. Elitist
83. Kiddy
84. Casual
85. Competitive
86. Overrated
87. Underrated
88. Unique
89. Addictive
90. Sarcastic
91. Zany
92. Graceful
93. Controversial
94. Lustful
95. Greedy
96. Slothful
97. Prideful
98. Envious
99. Gluttonous
100. Wrathful
101. Corrupt
102. Warlordian
103. Organized
104. Overdetailed
105. Overpowered
106. Underpowered
107. Random
108. Retro
109. Nostalgic
110. Smelly
111. Romantic
112. Annoying
113. Immature
114. Flashy
115. Antagonistic
116. Predictable
117. Adorable
118. Satanic
119. Neglected
120. Dramatic


Cards:
1. MasterWarlord
2. Thrice
3. KingK.Rool
4. Junahu
5. Hyper_Ridley
6. MarthTrinity
7. BKupa666
8. Wizzerd
9. Darth Meanie
10. Chief Mendez
11. SirKibble
12. n88_2004
13. Neo Exdeath
14. SmashDaddy
15. Spadefox
16. PPL
17. Getocoolaid
18. Monkey D. AWESOME
19. Katapultar
20. Plorf
21. Kirbywizard
22. JOE!
23. wrkngclsshr
24. TWILTHERO
25. Flyinfilipino
26. Thrice
27. VX
28. Salvo_Fenris
29. Clownbot
30. Agidius
31. Chris Lionheart
32. Cheap Josh
33. Tanookie
34. Heoandreo
35. GreatclayMonkey
36. Commander Blitzkrieg
37. Sonic the Baron
38. MYM’r
39. UserShadow7989
40. cutter
41. Tirkaro
42. Kholdstare
43. Sundance
44. FRF
45. dancingfrogman
46. Koopakirby
47. Half_Silver28
48. Meadow
49. Cruxis
50. Iron Thorn
51. Heartz
52. Koj
53. goldwyvern
54. MYM
55. MYM 1
56. MYM 2
57. MYM 3
58. MYM 4
59. MYM 5
60. MYM 6
61. MYM 7
62. MYM 8
63. MYM 9
64. Kibble’s Mormon Mission
65. The Stadium
66. Smashboards
67. Mic_128
68. Zook
69. Sandbag Central
70. Detail Movement
71. Playstyle
72. Detail
73. Organization
74. Creativity
75. Balance
76. Roonahu
77. Mario
78. Luigi
79. Peach
80. Bowser
81. DK
82. Diddy
83. Yoshi
84. Wario
85. Link
86. Zelda
87. Sheik
88. Ganondorf
89. Samus
90. Zero Suit Samus
91. Ice Climbers
92. Mr. Game & Watch
93. ROB
94. Kirby
95. Meta Knight
96. King Dedede
97. Olimar
98. Fox
99. Falco
100. Wolf
101. Captain Falcon
102. Ness
103. Lucas
104. Marth
105. Ike
106. Pikachu
107. Pokemon Trainer
108. Squirtle
109. Ivysaur
110. Charizard
111. Jigglypuff
112. Lucario
113. Pit
114. Sonic
115. Snake
116. K. Rool (Character)
117. Ridley
118. Mewtwo
119. Krystal
120. Mendez’s Rib Shack
121. Little Mac
122. Doc Louis
123. Glass Joe
124. Von Kaiser
125. Disco Kid
126. King Hippo
127. Combos
128. Don Flamenco
129. Bear Hugger
130. Piston Hondo
131. Great Tiger
132. Aran Ryan
133. Soda Popinski
134. Bald Bull
135. Super Macho Man
136. Mr. Sandman
137. Donkey Kong Country
138. Super Mario Bros.
139. Punch-Out!!
140. Nintendo
141. Microsoft
142. Kinect
143. Rare
144. Retro
145. Megaman
146. Legend of Zelda
147. Metroid
148. Starfox
149. Anime
150. Manga
151. FullMetal Alchemist
152. Death Note
153. Yoshi’s Island
154. Code Geass
155. Tails
156. Knuckles
157. Robotnik
158. Waluigi
159. Homunculi
160. Axel Gear
161. Cutesy Beau
162. Original Characters
163. Street Fighter
164. Soul Calibur
165. Sony
166. Illbleed
167. Silent Hill
168. Albert Wesker
169. Wario Land
170. Kamek
171. M. Bison
172. Chun-Li
173. Ryu
174. Guile
175. Guile’s Theme
176. Dedede’s Theme
177. Kremlings
178. Koopas
179. Goombas
180. Bob-Ombs
181. Protoman
182. Bass
183. Dr. Wily
184. Roy
185. Pichu
186. Dr. Mario
187. Zoroark
188. Pokemon
189. Giovanni
190. Team Rocket
191. Gordos
192. Waddle Dees
193. Kraid
194. Hades
195. MYM Survivor
196. Story Modes
197. Playing God
198. Zangief
199. Ken
200. Mike Haggar
201. Cervantes
202. Nightmare
203. Ivy
204. The Count
205. Doppelori
206. Dark Bowser
207. The Koopalings
208. Dracula
209. Castlevania
210. Chef Kawasaki
211. Hype Trains
212. Sloth
213. Unsmash-ness
214. Robot Masters
215. Ryuk
216. L
217. Light
218. Paper Mario
219. Bowser Jr.
220. Fire Emblem
221. Fate/Stay Night
222. Sandshrew
223. caterpie
224. The Elves
225. Eeveelutions
226. Dingodile
227. Smady’s Proposal
228. One Day Pokesets
229. Joint Movesets
230. Onix
231. Valozarg
232. The Spy
233. Team Fortress 2
234. Heavy Weapons Guy
235. The Scout
236. Goo Chains
237. Mafia
238. Edward Elric
239. Alphonse Elric
240. Roy Mustang
241. Armstrong
242. Steven Stone
243. Metagross
244. SkylerOcon
245. In-Smashness
246. Raiden
247. Metal Gear Solid
248. Amy Rose
249. Rouge the Bat
250. Xat
251. Nutsy Boltsy
252. MYM Wiki
253. Magikarp
254. TAC
255. Chaos Emeralds
256. Electroplankton
257. Mach Rider
258. Jafar
259. Anne
260. Lemmy Koopa
261. Morton Koopa Jr.
262. Miles Edgeworth
263. Pegasus
264. Rocket Executive Hugo
265. Pokemon MYM Version
266. Pikmin
267. Dodongos
268. Morshu
269. CDI Zelda
270. Youtube Poops
271. Mudkip
272. Gwonam
273. Memes
274. Roomba
275. Boos
276. Raven
277. Teen Titans
278. Naruto
279. Xiaolin Showdown
280. Jack Spicer
281. Hannibal Bean
282. Omi
283. Joke Movesets
284. Creepypasta
285. Wii
286. Xbox 360
287. PS3
288. Warcraft
289. Arthas
290. Cairne Bloodhoof
291. Mario Kart
292. Mario Party
293. Crash Bandicoot
294. Spyro
295. Master Hand
296. One Piece
297. Nostalgia Critic
298. Angry Video Game Nerd
299. Skype
300. Heavyweight Male Antagonists
301. Lightweight Female Protagonists
302. Banjo Kazooie
303. Villains
304. Plot Devices
305. Blazblue
306. Taokaka
307. Youtube
308. Let’s Plays
309. Grunty
310. Duke Oliver
311. Gary Oak
312. The Top 50
313. MW Top 10s
314. MW Top 13s
315. The Sunday Recap
316. Subaru
317. Flowcharts
318. Videoman.EXE
319. Halo
320. Master Chief
321. Phoenix Wright
322. Mr. Potato Head
323. Octillery
324. Weezing
325. Extras
326. Trolls
327. Marvel
328. Capcom
329. Gold Lightan
330. Superman 64
331. E.T. Atari
332. Batman
333. The Joker
334. The Scarecrow
335. Superman
336. Lex Luthor
337. Deadpool
338. Gamefaqs
339. IGN
340. Planking
341. Star Wars
342. Darth Vader
343. Yoda
344. Wookies
345. Tekken
346. Namco
347. Giant Enemy Crabs
348. Iron Man
349. Romero
350. Richard
 

Thrillhouse-vh.

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
6,014
Location
The Bay
Paper Mario sales and reception:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_mario#Reception

Mario RPG sales and reception:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_mario_rpg#Reception

notice how paper mario got better reviews and sold more copies then mario rpg. So i guess that makes super mario rpg (and i guess geno too) less popular then paper mario..
Thank you guys for proving my point that Nintendo is selling out to the lowest common denominators of gamers and is basically a dying (I argue dead) company.

If this kind of stuff is what SSB4 would get filled with, it'd be better of not being made.
 

KoJ

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
317
No, you don't get it.
Nintendo obviously doesn't ask anyone. There is no magic quota. Geno is 1st party in Sakurai's eyes so the only restriction in that case is rights.
It is illegal for Sakurai to not have Square's permission. Square's permission will take as much effort, possibly more, than any other company's. There's nothing you can do about it.

Yeah, but no one actually wants them. Here's the thing, "reps" was just as dumb when talking about Nintendo franchises as it is now. "Oh, Custom Robo needs a rep". No, it doesn't becuase no one likes Custom Robo that much. "We need a Square-Enix rep" No, we don't becuase there is no character who is popular from there. And while I'm at it
Speak for yourself. Custom Robo is selling hot in Japan. It just isn't doing very well over here due to lack of games.

The part about Square Enix is hilarious, because Geno is OWNED by Square Enix.

Megaman is the only third party who is popular. All others have low request and certainly not enough to actually be playable.
*Cough* Bomberman *Cough*

Anyway, you just admitted Geno wasn't popular, since he's third party.

Because people want him. Ike is the main character from one game with 10 bazillion characters who are more original and probably more deserving then Ike. Why is Ike in? Because people like him!
Ike is the ****ing main character. Do you see any Legend of Zelda fanatics stating that Link will be replaced by a Deku shrub?

This is a concept everyone missed. Most of the roster got in becuase people wanted them. ZSS, Pokemon Trainer, ROB and Snake were the only characters who were not highly requested. Geno has something over most characters. People asked for Sonic, and Sakurai went thought the trouble of adding him. Sonic was just insanely popular in one region, but Geno is very popular worldwide. He is one of the most requested characters. I don't think it's a problem.
You are obviously delusional if you're comparing Sonic's popularity and sucess to that of a character in a RPG for the SNES.

Not to mention that while he was not the main character, he was just as important as the rest of your cast.
And? If Mario RPG was the only Mario game, only Mario would be in, because he's the ****ing main character.

First of all, what is confusing? Geno is up there with Ridley. Trust me, Geno is pretty ****ing popular. Take a look at the poll done here a while back. That dude was requested a LOT.
Geno is popular with the people who actually know who he is. Ridley is without a doubt the second most requested Smash character after Sonic, yet he didn't get in. Seriously, make a thread now that claims Geno is more popular than Ridley on this forum, I dare you.

Also, these are what the top 10 most popular characters were. It didn't come from the poll.
:laugh:

You don't know what you're talking about. Those 10 characters were the ones on Sakurai's poll, which was comprised of only a few people.

Mother 3 sold 300k and was only in one region. Ike's games probably meet that. Geno was a major character in a game that had higher sales COMBINED.
First of all, PATH OF RADIANCE AND RADIANT DAWN WERE RELEASED IN AMERICA! Now that we've got that down, are you saying that a character from an RPG on the SNES who no one knew about before that poll is more popular than the hero of two of the most famed games on the Gamecube/Wii?

And find proof for that sales bull**** at the end.

Again, Paper Mario isn't that popular. He is a minor character who people think is popular. Data shows he's not. Not to mention it contradicts yourself. Mario is already in Brawl.
Combined Sales of Paper Mario>>>>> Super Mario RPG sales

I want concrete proof outside of the Japanese poll that more people know about Geno than Paper Mario.

And if you think Paper Mario is Mario, you've got serious issues. You know, he has the whole paper abilities like rolling up, turning sideways to make himself 2-d, etc. Not to mention the hammer.

Here are two point that summarize the entire thing
1)Since 64, all the characters added into Smash have been second bananans, obscure characters and villains. Olimar, Snake and Sonic are the exception to the rule. 64 had all the major Nintendo characters. All other characters will fall into one of these three groups. Marth is the odd ball as he is only obscure to us.
Pokemon trainer, Ike, Lucas (Who wasn't obscure to us after Ness popularized Earthbound). Also, most of those characters were either appearing in a lot of games or main characters, with only Shiek (Due to being put in to make Zelda unique) as an exception.

2)Popularity is the major determining factor. 9 of the top 10 most wanted characters (by Japanese fans) are in Brawl. There are a total of 16 characters, and Snake, ROB, ZSS and Pokemon Trainer were surprises, which is typical of a Smash game. The other were popular in the west (Sonic, Wario, Pit and I'm not sure who was last). As you can see, popular characters are what makes up the roster. So, if this is true, Geno is a sure bet.
Pit was popular? Are you high?

Have you noticed how most of the characters are actually important or represent something important? Geno is neither of those.

Your argument is importance. Geno was a major character in his game. People REALLY want him. He can have a moveset. He hits the three pillars. The only one stopping him is Sakurai.
Importance also stretches to impact and the overall importance in game series (Both of which Mario RPG lacks). Geno is a one-off character from an old game in which he was not the main character. Do you expect to see, say, that goddess from Kid Icarus, because she was a major character in that game? No, because it was an old game that had no sequels and wasn't very important to Nintendo.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
koopa cape located at the end of rainbow road
as much as i love getting new characters, i wouldn't mind getting less new characters and better single player modes (especially a better subspace style story and more things to do when you play alone).

edit:
hemightbegiant: what the hell are you talking about dude? Nintendo is in no way dead. Although they are now catering more to the casual gamer then their hardcore oldschool fans, but thats to be expected cause thats where the money is at this point in time.
 

KoJ

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
317
Thank you guys for proving my point that Nintendo is selling out to the lowest common denominators of gamers and is basically a dying (I argue dead) company.

If this kind of stuff is what SSB4 would get filled with, it'd be better of not being made.
How the hell does one great game selling better than another great game prove your point?
 

Finding Waldo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
167
If they are to go through the trouble to put 3rd party characters, they might as well put Sephiroth in. Or Cloud Strife, because Sephiroth would have to be unfair.
 

MasterWarlord

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
2,902
Location
Not wasting countless hours on a 10 man community
IN MEMORY OF KOJ. . .



FATMAN

"Laugh and grow fat!"

***

*** BACKGROUND ***

A member of the Dead Cell organization, Fatman has joined the Brawl! He has built a reputation as the best bomber in existence, able to create and deploy explosives almost intantaneously. To counter his enormous weight, Fatman wears roller skates, which give him some much needed speed.

Fatman was part of the Sons of Liberty take over of Big Shell, a massive complex that hides many secrets. Fatman uses bombs, bombs, and more bombs to help his fellow terrorists, but he has an ulterior motive. He worked for the Patriots, shadowy figures who control the United States, and tested the agent Raiden for them. His reward was the chance to kill his former master, Peter Stillman.

Fatman has been obsessed with time all his life, and wishes to live forever by keeping his legend alive. He is a throughly unpleasant human being, so obsessed at a chance for personal glory that he never cared about killing his teacher.

*** STATS ***

Size: 7/10
He’s about normal human height, but his enormous bulk makes him fairly easy to hit.

Weight: 8/10
There’s a reason he’s called Fatman.

Walk: 2/10
Average fatty walk.

Run: 9/10
What? How’s he so fast? Well, Fatman’s roller skates allow him to zip along at extremely high speed. Be on your guard, as his appearance is desceptive. Although he is beaten by Sonic for the title of fastest character, he’s still a speed demon.)

Traction: 2/10
Because of his high speed and massive bulk, Fatman has extremely low traction. Enemies should use this to their advantage.

Power: 9.5/10
Few if any of Fatman's attacks go below average knockback, and he has a good share of massive knockback moves. Fatman is killer in this department.

Attack Speed: 2.75/10
Fatman naturally has very few fast attacks. While Fatman has the ocassional attack that isn't horrendously slow,

Range: 6.5/10
Fatman has a wide variety of bombs he can place about giving him good stage control, but lacks good projectiles. Fatman's melee range is above average, but it's not spectacular.

Priority: 8.5/10
With all his disjointed hitboxes and essentially 100% priority attacks, Fatman has no shortage of options for out priortizing his enemy.

First Jump: 1/10
Yeah, he’s not very athletic.

Second Jump: 3/10
Better, but still pretty pathetic.

Recovery: 2/10
Fatman's two jumps are terrible, his falling speed is horrendous, and while he can go up a decent vertical distance, it costs him 10%. Fatman will die fast when recovering. While his nair and bair can potentially help, they're extremely situational.

Fall Speed: 8/10
His strategy is mostly “down to earth".

Crouch: 4/10
Below average, but his crawl makes up for it.

Crawl: 10/10
Fatman's crawl is by far the most useful one in the game, there being actual point in using it.

Hover: No.
Wall jump: No.
Wall cling: No.
Glide: No.

*** BASIC ACTIONS/ANIMATIONS***

Standard Pose:
Fatman stands up straight with his arms out a bit to balance himself. Essentially the pose from his pic at the top of this moveset.

Idling:
Fatman loses his balance slightly, his skates moving about a little, before he extends out his arms fully and crouches down to regain balance, then rises back into his standard pose.

Walking:
Fatman slowly skates one foot in front of the other, extending out his arms to balance.

Running:
Fatman goes slightly faster, not having to balance anymore due to picking up speed.

Dashing:
Fatman doesn't instantly get up to running speed like a normal character. He at first does a running motion to gain momentum, then coasts forward, putting his arms behind him as he travels at a high speed. He slowly loses speed until he goes back to the first part of it. His running speed when coasting is on the heels of Sonic's, otherwise it's barely above Captain Falcon's.

Crouching/Crawling:
Fatman’s crawl merely has him crouch and bend slightly over. While it might seem only decent, the great thing about Fatman’s crawl is that it’s fast. To crawl, Fatman brings his arms back and starts moving his feet forward and back quickly, skating forward. His crawl is about the same speed as Bowser’s run, which is pretty amazing. Also, when Fatman ducks out of or into a dash or run, he will keep all the momentum gained from the move, allowing him to lose very little speed in the transition between standing and ducking, making him able to easily change from ducking to standing to ducking again in very little time.

First Jump:
Fatman doesn't crouch down at all simply due to how horrible this jump is. He just sort of springs up, barely getting off the ground.

Second Jump:
A bomb goes off in Fatman's coat, causing small explosion within it. The explosion is thankfully weak enough to not hurt him, but due to it being so weak it barely propells him up at all.

Shield:
Fatman takes out his gun and holds it with both hands, ready to fire, as the standard bubble shield forms around him.

Spot Dodge:
Fatman tilts backwards on his skates, nearly falling over, then rapidly flails his arms forward to get back up to standing. Think ROB's spot dodge, except Fatman feet are moving about considerably as well.

Forward Roll:
Fatman skates forward quickly, going into the background as he does so before coming back onto the playing field.

Backward Roll:
A bomb goes off in Fatman's coat that propells him backwards. It doesn't need to propell him back far, so this isn't bad like his second jump, and it's still weak enough to not hurt himself.

Air Dodge:
Standard leaning into the background.

Asleep:
Fatman sleeps in place, his head hanging down.

Dizzy:
Fatman holds one hand on his big bald head while he takes out a glass of wine and drinks out of it through a straw with his other, sounding drunk. Don't do drugs!

***

*** MOVESET ***

*** SPECIALS ***

Neutral Special - Time Bomb
Fatman’s signature move. He drops a time bomb on the ground, which immedietly starts beeping and counting down. This can be done when he’s running without slowing him down, so it’s great to use with his quick speed. This is also the only Neutral B-attack that can be used while dashing and running without stopping to perform the attack. The bomb is box shaped and about as wide as Olimar’s head. It’s about as tall as a pokeball. It’s also a ridiculously awesome weapon of destruction.

You see, the time bombs Fatman drops have a time limit, naturally, before they explode. It just so happens that the time limit for a normal bomb is 10 seconds. When it explodes, BOOM! It will create a bobomb size explosion, with C4 power. The explosion will damage anyone, even Fatman himself.

Attacking the bombs enough will cause them to fall apart, taking about 15% before kicking the bucket. However, Fatman can plant up to 4 bombs on the stage, making it incredibly hard to keep up. Since there’s about a second of time where Fatman can’t attack after he uses every bomb, this means you can lay 4 bombs in only about 5 ½ seconds. Powerful, eh? The amount of lag before the bomb is dropped is small, allowing for complex maneuvers using the bombs. By the way, there can only be 4 bombs on the stage, even if there are 4 Fatmans fighting.

When the bombs explode, they explode in a disjointed hitbox the size of Wario, doing 15% and above average knockback.

Side Special - Handgun Fire
Fatman pulls out his small handgun, turns towards the screen, aims it forward, and begins firing. Fatman bellows out "Outta my way!" every third time he uses the move. The handgun is an automatic, shooting a rapid stream of bullets forward horizontally for the next 2 seconds. The stream of fire can be aimed slightly up or down by pressing the control stick in that direction. The bullets move at extremely high (Shiek's needles) speed, and they go forward about 1/2 of Final Destination. He'll then bring the handgun close to him, put in a new clip, and put the handgun away.

This attack is insane. Despite the average lag on both ends, it gives Fatman range and a nice projectile. It will deal eight small disjointed hits, which stack up as the opponent is peppered with fire. Each bullet will merely do 2% make the opponent flinch in place and push the enemy slightly backwards for a potential total of 16%. This is a good defensive measure and damage racker, but it's far from spammable.

Up Special - Blown Up
Fatman pulls out a detonation switch and pushes the button. Instantly, a bomb hidden somewhere in his clothing explodes, propelling him straight up at high speed. However, he takes some damage (10%) while using this move. He receives super armor while using the attack, and is propelled up a distance similar to that of King Dedede’s B-up. However, unlike Dedede’s, Fatman’s recovery lets him grab onto ledges. He will deal major knockback with nearly unstoppable priority to anyone he touches during the initial stages of getting fired upward, so STAY OUT OF HIS WAY! Upon getting to the top of his recovery distance, Fatman goes into his helpless state.

This attack has above average starting lag where Fatman pulls out his device and presses the button. This should rarely be used as an attack, as the damage you do to yourself as well as the hit you'll take from being punished if you whiff it are far from ideal.

Down Special - Wire Trip Bomb

Fatman bends down and sets a small, rectangular bomb on the ground. A wire connected to the bomb is coming out of one of his pockets. As Fatman moves around, the wire will continue to be connected with the bomb, merely growing longer as he moves away from the origin. At about 1/4 of Final Destination in any direction away from the original bomb, the wire will automatically be cut loose. You can also cut the wire loose while closer to the bomb by pressing B-down again.

When the wire is released, another bomb connected to it will fall down from Fatman’s pocket, creating a trip wire. If any character other than Fatman touches the trip wire (Not the bombs, the trip wire!), the bombs will explode, and the trip wire will explode as well, dealing about Link bomb level knockback (Below average) to the enemy and 6% damage. If the enemy is hit by the bombs’ explosion, they will instead receive knockback similar to that of the C-4 (Above average) and 12% damage. All the hitboxes in this move are obviously disjointed.

It is extremely useful to combine this attack with platforms. For instance, the initial bomb could be dropped on the ground, and then the second bomb could be dropped on the platform right above the first bomb, creating a “wall” that must be rolled past or jumped over by opponents. A trip wire can be laid horizontally, diagonally, vertically… However, there can only be ONE trip bomb on the stage at a time for each Fatman.

Also, if the bombs do not explode after 15-20 seconds, they willl explode autmotically, damaging anyone next to them with the same effects.

*** STANDARDS ***

Standard Attack - Graceful Fat
Fatman puts his arms up in a defensive position and jabs one arm forward quickly (Very low lag), having below average range and priority, tiny knockback, and 5%.

Upon the next press of A, Fatman skates forward a foot and spins around in place on one of his skates like a dancer, his leg that's spinning around rapidly being the hitbox. This stretches out an average distance from Fatman with above average priority and sucks foes in towards Fatman, doing 6 hits of 1% and a flinch per second. This is a repeated jab, and it will continue as long as you hold the a button. This will completely go over the heads of short characters like Kirby, but is useful against large characters for damage racking.

The second part of the combo has below average start up (It will hit those hit by the first part of the neutral A combo), but has average ending lag as Fatman puts down his leg spinning about and takes a bow, though anybody who was caught in Fatman's trap won't have time to punish him.

Dashing Attack - Sonicboom
Fatman gets a small burst of speed, creating a small blue sonic boom around him. He moves forward about 1/6 of Final Destination’s width, his body being a average priority hitbox during this time, and then pivots around, skidding to a stop with his skates.

This attack is quick, but it has very little knockback and deals only 5%. It covers quite a bit of distance at a very quick speed, so USE IT. It is also useful for clearing gaps between Fatman and his opponents. This is the fastest way to get Fatman to come to a stop from his insanely fast run due to Fatman's poor traction.

*** TILTS ***

Forward Tilt - Handle Slam
Fatman reaches his hand into his bombsuit, and quickly pulls out his handgun. He then extends his arm and jabs it forward, slamming the handle into whoever’s in front of him. If it connects, he will let loose one shot, straight upwards, going up at the speed of Shiek's needle with infinite range.

Both attacks are fairly weak, the main one having only low knockback and 6% damage. The bullet only does 2% and a flinch, but is more an extra to the attack than anything else. This attack is among Fatman's fastest, and while the range is below average (On the main attack), the gun is a disjointed hitbox. This is decent to throw in for damage on ocassion due to it's speed in Fatman's otherwise slow arsenal, and is good for FFAs due to the extra hit above Fatman from the gunshot.

Up Tilt - Taunt
Fatman whistles loudly and says "Ovah here!", having below average starting lag and zero ending lag. This prevents foes from using projectiles for 5 seconds, but they will only fall for the taunt once every 30 seconds. While you can't use this that often, this is good for giving you occasional breathing room against enemies who love to camp.

Down Tilt - Plop
Fatman suddenly plops on his buttocks. This has nearly no starting lag at all, but horrible ending lag. Fatman's rear end is a high priority hitbox that does 12% and above average knockback. The main time to use this move is against small characters like Kirby, as they will go inbetween Fatman's legs when passing him. Plop on them when they attempt this and see if they try it again!

*** SITUATIONALS ***

Ledge Attack - The Ultimate Edge Hog
Fatman tosses a time bomb up onto the ledge, then quickly pulls himself up and puts his fingers in his ears as he quickly skates the distance of a battlefield platform away from the edge. The bomb explodes afterwards in a disjointed hitbox the size of Wario doing 10% and average knockback, and it destroys the edge, removing a section of terrain the size of a Stage Builder block. This gives Fatman a very good edge hog game, but he is unable to move until the bomb explodes, making him extremely vulnerable throughout this attack. The edge respawns 5 seconds later.

Ledge Attack Over 100% - Fatty Flail
Fatman flails his arms forward and slowly hoists up his legs onto the platform. The duration of this ledge attack is extremely long, around two seconds. Fatman's flailing arms in front of him are a constant decent priority hitbox for 8% and below average (Barely) knockback. The animation for this move resembles how a fat person would get out of a swimming pool (Such as one of the authors of this moveset).

Rising Attack (Either Side) - Bomb Flip
An explosion occurs under Fatman, dealing 5% to him and causing him to fly through the air in a rainbow arc and land a battlefield platform's distance away (He goes to the right if on his stomach and visa versa.), landing on his either side. Fatman's body is a decent priority hitbox during this time that does 10% and average knockback. This attack can be spammed for multiple hits at low percentages (Very low lag on either end), but it deals damage to Fatman and doesn't actually cause him to rise.

Tripped Attack - Concealed by Fat
Fatman continues to sit on his buttocks, doing seemingly nothing. After a second he starts laughing, then after another second an explosion occurs underneath him. He was sitting on a bomb. . .This causes a disjointed explosion the size of Bowser that does 14-15% with above average knockback, but also deals 10% and average knockback to Fatman. If you attack Fatman while he's performing this move, the bomb will still be there and will still explode on que, you having to attack it (Only 10 stamina) to destroy it.

*** SMASHES ***

Forward Smash - Plant Bomb
Fatman will twist slightly and stick one of his hands in his coat during the charge up. When he lets loose, Fatman will pull out a small, circular bomb from his pocket and jab his arm forward with it clutched in his hand while crouching. If it connects with an opponent, it will cause low-medium knockback, but the opponent will be stuck with a time bomb.

The amount of time before the bomb goes off depends on the charging; uncharged, there will be 5 seconds before the bomb goes off, while fully charged there will be only 1 second. During the time when the opponent is stuck, the bomb can be transferred to other players by touching them like a Gooey Bomb, although it only will happen about ½ of the times they connect. When the bomb goes off, it creates an explosion that damages anyone it touches. The bomb can be transferred back to Fatman, but with Fatman's running speed you should be able to play tag with the bomb with ease.

When the bomb goes off, its knockback is from about that of an uncharged up smash from Mario to that of an uncharged Ike F-smash, depending on the charge time, while the damage ranges from 18-23%. An interesting side-effect of the attack is that bombs can be attached to not only players, but crates, barrels, walls, and objects. There can be only one bomb on the stage at a time for each Fatman.

The explosion can be dodged like a gooey bomb, but the bomb doesn't flash or anything to indicate when it's gonna blow up, and there's a slight half second interval for the fuse being random to further confuse victims into when to perform a dodge to avoid the explosion. This opens the door for more mindgames.

There is average lag at the beginning of the attack, but no ending lag. The range of the attack is average, being fairly similar to that of Captain Falcon’s F-smash. The priority of the move is a bit awkward - Fatman won't interrupt moves while placing the bomb on someone, but he still will indeed place it on them, and then he'll take the hit of the enemy's move.

Up Smash - Laughing and Growing Fat
Fatman takes out a glass of wine with a straw in it from his pocket, then drinks through the straw as he charges the smash attack. Upon releasing the charge, Fatman spits the wine out upwards, laughing maniacally and flailing his arms about against his fat. The wine goes up above Fatman and forms a disjointed hitbox the size of Bowser, doing 17-24 hits (Depending on the charge) of 1% and flinching over a second, the last hit doing below average upward knockback (Average fully charged). This has little starting lag, making it a good anti aerial move, but at the end Fatman bellows out his signature line "Laugh and grow fat!", giving the move average ending lag. It's possible to DI out of this attack to avoid the final hit if you were in it from the start, so Fatman may not want to catch a foe in it from the very beginning, as otherwise they can punish him.

Down Smash - Pilgrimage to Hell
Fatman opens his coat up fully to show everyone the massive amount of explosives hidden within it as he charges, holding a remote control. Fatman says “I'm gonna go down in history!.” as the move charges, it getting interrupted if he releases it before then.

When you release the charge. . .Absolutely nothing happens. Fatman doesn’t want to blow himself up without taking something nelse with him, and he just gets an annoyed look on his face, saying “Ya chicken?”, giving the move bad ending lag that can be punished.

What use is this move then? If Fatman is hit while he’s “charging” the move, Fatman will push a button on his remote control and all the explosives in his coat will detonate, him having super armor to avoid the knockback of the enemy's attack. This causes a MASSIVE explosion to occur, twice the size of Bowser. Anyone hit by this massive explosion will be dealt an insane 26-27% damage and unholy knockback. The catch is that this move obviously also blows up Fatman himself, him taking the same damage/knockback as the victim. Keep away from Fatman when he uses this or camp him unless you wanna join his little pilgrimage.

Fatman players will want to try to use this move when they’re at high percents and their enemy is at lower ones to take them down with them, and opposing players will have to pick when they attack Fatman very carefully, as he could whip open his coat and blow everyone sky high if they’re not careful. Fatman won’t push the button on the remote control if he’s hit by a projectile.

*** AERIALS ***

Neutral Aerial - Lightening the Load
Fatman rapidly throws 5 bombs out of his coat to reduce his insane falling speed. He throws the bombs in random directions, and they randomly travel anywhere from half a battlefield platform to a full Battlefield platform. The bombs explode in disjointed hitboxes the size of Wario, and each do 10% and average knockback. This has little starting and ending lag, but the attack lasts a full second. If you're somehow still in the air after falling for a second with Fatman's immense falling speed, your falling speed will be cut in half until you touch the ground. If you were launched up high when knocked away from the stage, this can help you recover slightly.

Forward Aerial - Making a Toast
Fatman takes out a glass of wine from his pocket and smacks it forward as if to clink it together with another glass and proclaims "Cheers!", taking a sip of the wine through a straw before putting it away and healing himself of 2%. This has no starting lag at all, giving Fatman a much needed aerial to throw out against the enemy (Although it does have some slight ending lag).

The hitbox on the move is when Fatman smacks the wine glass forward, it going out an average distance. The wine glass has very low priority, but does 10% and average horizontal knockback. However; nearly any attack will shatter the glass causing the move to be interrupted and have horrible ending lag as the wine spills over Fatman. Due to this being Fatman's only fast aerial, this is very predictable, so foes will be more than likely to see this coming and out prioritze it. Use this sparingly to punish foes when you're forced to be in the air for whatever reason.

The glass will also shatter if Fatman lands on the ground before the move finishes, and the only way to get high enough on a flat stage to finish the move before landing is to take 10% damage from your up special, so you can't spam this for healing in normal situationals.

Back Aerial - Cypher Surveillance



Fatman opens up his coat and takes a Cypher out of it, it being around 1.5X as large as the one used in Snake's up special and leave it to float about in the air. This has below average lag on both ends, but due to it being on both ends still makes the move somewhat awkward to use. The cypher will float in the air, going back and forth the distance of a Battlefield Platform from the left to the right of it's initial start location randomly, but never going far of where it was originally placed. The cypher can be destroyed easily and does no damage to foes, only 10%.

This can be used for recovery because the cypher will act as a platform. Still, foes are likely to destroy these as soon as you put them up, so there are rarely useful. You can only have one cypher out at a time, and they'll explode automatically (Creating a disjointed explosion the size of Wario with 10% and average knockback) after being out for 20 seconds.

However; using a bair when you already have a cypher out won't just make the old one vanish as you take out a new one. Instead, Fatman will take out a remote control and dramatically press a button, giving the move average starting lag, though zero ending lag. This causes the cypher to blow up. This is yet another means of creating traps, and this is the only one you can set off on will. Still, this isn't worth the hassle to set up when compared to your other better bombs, so only use this if you really want a bomb out in the skies to defend you or have already layed enough other bombs.

Up Aerial - Bomb Head
Fatman ducks his head down into his coat, then raises up a bomb where his head normally is for it to explode. This has horrible starting lag. The bomb explodes in an disjointed explosion the size of Wario above Fatman, doing 15% and above average upward knockback. However; should Fatman not hit anyone with this strong move, the explosion will hurt him for 5% and put him into his helpless state. This is a very bad move, although if nothing else it won't be interrupted by landing on the ground.

Down Aerial - Graceful landing
Fatman balances on one foot in mid air, getting in a pose like somebody skating on an ice rink. He then starts falling at a large speed. Fatman's extended leg is a low priority hitbox, doing 5% and mediocre knockback, making this useless as an attack. However; Fatman will land on the ground gracefully and be in the second phase of his neutral A combo, ready to spin around on the skate. This is the best way to get out of the air quickly and easily transition back into Fatman's vastly superior ground game. Fatman never wants to be in the air longer than he has to.

*** THROWS ***

Grab - Embracing with Open Arms
Fatman opens up his coat like in his dsmash, but doesn't take out a remote control. Instead, he spreads his arms wide open, turning to face the screen and sliding into the background, being invulnerable for a brief period before he skates slightly forward onto the playing field and grabs the victim in a bear hug, closing his coat and trapping the victim inside it. This has above average starting lag for a grab as well as punishable ending lag should Fatman whiff this grab, but it has large range and makes Fatman invulneable briefly.

Pummel - Detonations
Fatman doesn't actually do anything for this pummel. Instead, the foe struggles around trying to get out from Fatman's coat, but only triggers a bomb inside Fatman's coat to explode. This is very laggy, but causes an amazing 6% to the victim. Unfortunately, it also causes 2% to Fatman.

Forward Throw - Fresh Coat
Fatman takes his coat off with the victim still inside it and throws it away, then takes out a new coat and puts it on. The victim must button mash to get out of the wad of coat and bombs, lying on the ground. While they're immune to attacks under there, they take 8 hits of 1% per second from bombs and exploding in the coat and must button mash to get out of the coat, it being as hard to get out of as a normal grab. While you can't attack the victim while they're trying to get out of your spare coat, this would be an excellent time for you to plant some more bombs.

Back Throw - Entangle
Fatman takes the victim out of his coat and holds them with one hand, then wraps a trip wire bomb from his down special around the victim, there being two bombs on each end of the wire. Fatman then smacks the victim to the ground and kicks them away. They roll the distance of a battlefield platform before coming to a stop and getting out of the entanglement, doing nothing whatsoever. This cannot be used to kick foes off ledges. What does it do then? If the victim rolls into a wall or another victim, an explosion the size of Bowser will occur, dealing 15% and above average knockback. When you're against Fatman, stay away from walls just as much as you would against Dedede.

Up Throw - Blown Sky High
Fatman takes the foe out of his coat and attaches a time bomb to the opponent (Identical looking to the Neutral B bombs), sets the time limit, and throws the opponent a set distance in the air for 4%. As soon as the opponent reaches the peak of that point, the bomb will explode, propelling them further up and doing an additional 7% .

The knockback of the bomb is fairly low, but the set range added with the initial throw (1.5X Ganondorf's height) cranks it up to a throw that has great knockback for a throw (Above average by normal standards).

Down Throw - Down with the Fat
Nothing happens when you press this button input - except that you are suddenly allowed to move freely while the victim is trapped inside your coat. Any damage you take will also be given to them, including damage inflicted by your own bombs within your coat, such as your up special. However, if you do a button input that opens your coat such as grab or dsmash, the foe will be let out. The foe must button mash to get out of this, it being as hard to escape as a regular grab (The amount they must button mash is reset when you start this throw). This is best used to either suicide with the foe off the stage or go into a stage hazard for a Fatcide.

*** FINAL SMASH ***

Final Smash - The Best Bomber of them all
Fatman yells out "I will be the best bomber of them all!", and his movement speed briefly doubles. Everyone else is stunned for 10 seconds, but they all are invulnerable. However; Fatman has far more useful things to be doing then damaging them. . .During this time, Fatman can set up as many bombs as he wants! Their timers won't start ticking until the final smash time period is up, so make up the most crazy bomb layout you can. After the 10 seconds up, the foes become vulnerable and can move again while Fatman is unable to lay any more bombs until his current ones vanish and loses his doubled movement speed.

OVERALL PLAYSTYLE - MAKING HISTORY​

Fatman is an odd character. On one hand, he’s a heavy weight with powerful explosives and terrible aerial game. On the other hand, he’s fast as heck, and most of his non-explosive attacks are very weak. On a third part, he lays bombs. Lots of bombs. You think Diddy’s annoying? You aint seen nothin yet.

A good Fatman player should always move around. He has those skates for a reason. With speed faster than Captain Falcon’s, he’s a beast in this department. Not only that, but Fatman doesn’t need to stop moving while performing one of his best attacks, his time bomb special. Using the time bomb over and over while careening around the stage has plenty of benefits. Because of a combination of his speed, bulk, and rollar blades, however, Fatman has terrible traction.

Fatman’s explosives are very, very useful. He is, after all, the best bomber on the planet! The time bombs are without a doubt his best, combining his deathly movement speed with the ability of stage control. Plant a few around and watch your opponent squirm trying to avoid them, or better yet, attack the opponents while they try to attack the bombs to dismantle them. The trip wire bomb is especially deadly, as it can be planted as a stage obstacle for opponents. Plant trip wire bombs with the wire stretched between platforms, ground, and wherever.

Your handgun is a useful projectile, but it is very slow to take out and will only stop firing after 2 seconds, decreasing its usefulness. However, having one projectile is better than having zero.

Aerials are slow, weak, and typically don't have enough range. Add to that Fatman's ridiculously terrible jumps, and he's just begging to be comboed in midair. While Fatman is very heavy, his mediocre jumps combined with the fact his recovery damages him means Fatman won't survive nearly as long as other heavyweights.

However; Fatman doesn't intend to go down easy. He's gonna be remembered as the best bomber of them all! Should Fatman see that he's getting to high percentages, he'll want to try to take his foe down him in his dsmash, kamikaze style. It's an honor for foes to see history in the making! They should consider it a priveledge being taken down by Fatman!

*** EXTRAS ***​

*** EXTRA ANIMATIONS ***​

Up Taunt - Surpassing your master
Fatman pulls out Peter Stillman's dog tag, which Raiden picked off of him when he killed him. Fatman chuckles, looking down at it gleefully as a token of how he's bested his old master, then puts it away.

Side Taunt - Stop playing around!
Fatman chuckles, starts moving his skates back and forth in place, and punches his hand repeatedly. He then raises his arms in a cheering motion twice.

Down Taunt - Short life
Fatman skates around in a small circle for a second, skids to a stop, and says, “Life is short.”

Entrance - History Commences
Fatman skates horizontally onto the stage from offscreen (Skating on air over gaps and pits). As he’s skating, he drops a small bomb on the ground, which instantly blows up as he reaches his destination. No, the bomb does not deal damage or knockback, it’s only there for dramatic effect.

Win Pose 1 - Fat man's laughter
Fatman skates around the middle of the screen in 2 big circles, stops, turns to the screen, and laughs in his screechy voice.

Win Pose 2 - Parting Gift
Fatman is off screen at first. Suddenly, he zips from the left side of the screen and skates off the right side, leaving only a bomb in the middle of the screen. Although the bomb will merely stay there for the next 5 seconds, if will explode as soon as the time is up, leaving a large scorched section of ground where it was.

Win Pose 3 - Going down in History
Fatman laughs, raises his wine glass with one hand, and screams, “I WILL BE REMEMBERED…”

Loss Pose - Mocking Applause
Fatman claps slightly mockingly (Think the Joker). He then slips on his skates, falls on his bottom, and after pulling himself back up, starts clapping again.

Alternate Loss Pose - Blown out of History
Sometimes, Fatman will instead merely be lying on the ground. However, after 5 seconds, a massive explosion will come out from under him, consuming his body.

Wiimote Sound
“Glad you could make it. The party’s about to start!”

*** KIRBY HAT ***​
Kirby gets a bomb suit covering up his mouth, only the top of his head able to be seen out of it, and it becomes severed like Fatman's head. Upon pressing neutral B, Kirby takes a time bomb out from behind his back and throws it onto the ground, functioning like Fatman's bombs. Kirby will use this button input when running when B is pressed, as well, just like Fatman. Kirby's shoes are replaced with skates, greatly increasing his running speed to be just behind Fatman's. Fatman is among the most useful characters to copy.

*** SNAKE CODEC CONVERSATION ***​

Snake: Colonel, come in. Fatman somehow survived the finishing blast Raiden gave to him back during the plant incident. . .
Colonel: Yes. . .It's a good thing I survived the incident as well.
Snake: What are you talking about, Colonel? You wern't there. . .
Colonel: If only you knew, Snake. . .
Snake: Anyway. . .What can you tell me about him?
Colonel: If you shoot him in the head, it'll hurt him!
Snake: . . .
Colonel: Don't you remember your VR training?
Snake: I had enough of you over that kid's codec back at the plant. . .

-End Transmission-

*** ASSIST TROPHY - VAMP ***​



Vamp the vampire emerges from the assist trophy. Rather fitting name, no? Vamp, unlike other assist trophies, is actually vulneable. However; he will dodge all of your attacks without fail. Every single one. Vamp has two jumps as high as Falco's and Sonic's running speed, and can even walk on water. He can easily get to wherever he wants to in the blink of an eye. He'll run around chasing random enemies doing slashes at them for 10% and average knockback. Vamp has a VERY lengthy duration, 60 seconds, and will respawn off the ledge if KOd. However, when Vamp spawns, four lights will spawn shining down on the stage. When you destroy these lights, them each just taking a single physical hit to be destroyed, Vamp will stop dodging attacks and you can dispose of his 30 stamina.

A JOINT PRODUCTION BY MASTERWARLORD AND KOJ. . .

The original unfinished moveset (Koj's second to last post)
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
I had a few ideas for the grooves which I dubbed "styles". Some ideas

Specialist: Ups the power and proficiency of special attacks, but weakens Smash attacks
Usable for: Kirby, Ness, Lucas, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Wario, Pikachu

Hand-to-Hand:Greatly increases close range attacks, but the character can not use projectiles
Usable by:Snake, Samus

Healing:Character's attacks are weaker, but heals damage over time
Usable by:Jigglypuff

Risky!:Yoshi's loses his special 2nd jump and can't get a boost from Egg Toss, but becomes incredibility strong
Usable by:Yoshi

Easy Mode:Does not fall when using PK Thunder, but the collision does no damage
Usable by:Ness, Lucas

Ranger: Projitiles are stronger but closer range attacks lose a little punch
Usable by:Samus, Snake, Link, Toon Link

You Must Recover: Recovery skills increase but attacks become weaker
Usable by:pit, Meta-Knight, Peach

Ariel Ace: Air attacks become stronger, but ground attacks become weaker
Usable by: Mario, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Pit, Peach

Grounded: Character fall faster and have weaker air attacks, but ground attacks are much stronger
Usable by: Mario, Falco, Meta-Knight,

Light as a Feather: Character falls slower, but loses power on air moves
Usable by:Falco, King Dedede, Fox, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon

These are test, so more characters will probably use them.
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
Now that that's out of the way, smash bros is a cash cow. If you took out the characters and replaced them with generic wireframes, nobody would care about it. The only reason people are attracted to it is the characters.
To be fair, there's really no reason to get a fighting game if you don't like any of the characters. This is why I never really got into the Street Fighter games despite liking fighting games... The characters didn't really appeal to me.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
koopa cape located at the end of rainbow road
To be fair, there's really no reason to get a fighting game if you don't like any of the characters. This is why I never really got into the Street Fighter games despite liking fighting games... The characters didn't really appeal to me.
well if the game itself is good then that helps. Like for example i love soul caliber but i dont really care about the characters at all.



on a another note what new items would people like to see in the next smash? I think item blocks and fake item blocks (from mario kart) would be cool (on my mario kart mario moveset i also talk about those items, the link is in my sig).
 

MasterWarlord

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
2,902
Location
Not wasting countless hours on a 10 man community
46: Illidan



Joy of joys! Let’s get the worst out of the way, shall we? The primary reason Illidan takes the absolute worst spot is because he was made after Zasalamel, who actually had some legitimate (And consciously made) playstyle. That, and I was stuck on him for at least 2 months. 2 MONTHS. Seriously. Working on this moveset is the most torture I’ve ever had to put myself through. Not only are the moves random like a MYM 4 set, there’s separate playstyle themes here that contradict each other with various defense and offense clashing violenetly as Illidan can’t decide what he wants to be. Magic syndrome is also absolutely blatant to anyone with any knowledge of WC3. . .Bloodlust, Vampiric Aura, Sleep, Unholy Frenzy, Doom, Orb of Venom/Fire, a lot more I’m probably forgetting. . .Granted, it’s not –entirely- bad, as Illidan does have the occasional person who doesn’t want to puke on him in HR, Lionheart, and Kholdstare, unlike the next two universally hated movesets.

45: FMA Man



I can’t believe how badly I ***** my favorite character ever in this set to the point of him being entirely unrecognizable. That’s the biggest offender. The picture and “name” I call this set by should give you an idea of it’s contents. You can’t call this a set for Envy. He was made before I read the manga (The only reason I like FMA and Envy especially as much as I do), but that’s hardly an excuse. He was before my getting into playstyle, as well, so he’s judged as a MYM 4 set, but none of his attacks were even particularly creative despite the potential of transforming into absolutely random characters. He’s a failure even as a MYM 4 set.

Fun Fact: The best actual use of this set and Illidan is their bairs. Set off a time bomb then pressure the foes enough so that they don’t just spot dodge it when it goes off. Sound familiar? Ryuk. These bairs were a slight precursor to him, though unlike these jumbled messes Ryuk revolves around the concept rather then casually throwing it into a random button input for creativity.

44: Lust



Lust has the fewest negatives of the three infamously bad MYM 5 sets. Granted, MT hated her and yet liked FMA Man at the time, but that’s about it. She was the closest of the three to coming with a legitimate playstyle, as noted by Spadefox and Ocon. Spadefox thought she was better then the first Gluttony, and Ocon did for a considerable while before I pointed it out to him. He actually –wanted- to have a match-up against her with his self insert. Lust technically has the first (Poorly done) match-up ever, pre-dating Alphonse.

43: Yoshimitsu



Yoshimitsu. . .He’s the least notable of my super early sets if only because he showed the least amount of improvement, and the improvement wasn’t really that good. Meditation was originally a taunt until Mendez advised me to turn it into a special and remove a generic sword slash charge move for it. I also forgot the Final Smash entirely on this set at first and rushed to add it in an hour later. The result was a generic mechanic booster that didn’t boost his mechanic (He had none) and was just a generic buff in the vein of Wario Man. Yoshimitsu is also far from the most fitting person to use Soul Edge. . .

42: Capsule J2



Capsule J2 is the definition of milking a mechanic for all it’s worth and was one of my single most rushed sets ever. 4 hours. It did get somewhat of a playstyle solely because of having a mechanic and manipulating it so much, though no playstyle was intended and this generic mechanic manipulation was intended to be for creativity, falling flat on it’s face. J2 was well received at the time, though I feel that’s more simply because of the character (Kirby was all the rage when Kibble was king). Perhaps his pathetically generic mechanic and the manipulation of it tricked Rool (Who was actually somewhat conscious of playstyle) into thinking it had a playstyle? I blame this set’s success on his and Kibble’s unjustified praise of it.

41: K. Rool (MYM 3)



It’s a decent enough attempt at a first set at the time. Yeah, no creativity or playstyle, though neither of those were exactly common place at the time, but it did have some detail. Percentages and knockback were present with occasional mentions of lag where it was relevant, and the Specials and the occasional Smash Attack actually went into some detail. Most importantly, it’s a take on an outsider to MYM as to how an SSB4 candidate should be in Smash. While I copied the template Koj and Spadefox used for Eggman and read the set to get an idea as to how to go about it, I posted it in the SSB4 thread with no intention of going into MYM. Mendez was the one who recruited me into MYM, though, telling me to go post it in the thread there. This could potentially go higher, but the disturbing lack of BBCode (There was next to nothing before the others demanded that I put it in) and button inputs blatantly stolen from Bowser bogs it down significantly. Ignore the SSE Role – it was made before I made the set and was edited in 2 months later at random.

40: Fatman



Koj set a decent enough basic grounds – trap character. Koj’s take on the trap characters was actually somewhat unique by today’s standards in basic concept – he can’t be pressured like the typical trap character because he can lay traps while moving and has great movement speed. Then I come in and botch it up with random moves for “creativity”, such as a dsmash stolen from Joker and a blatant prop in the usmash that looks like it came out of a Kupa set. This is an insult to Koj’s original moveset blueprints. It’s still worth a read if only for some of Koj’s original writing still being in there with buffed detail.

39: K. Rool (MYM 5)



. . .Rather pathetic that the K. Rool remake is barely any higher then the original, though the original K. Rool has the advantage of it’s quality being much more dismissed due to it’s time and my experience at said time. The second take on K. Rool is a decent enough MYM 4 esque set, and considering it was posted at the very start of MYM 5 it’s more excusable then some of the others. My fondest memory of the set is easily the alt costume clones, which actually got an actual positive response out of Rool, quite a rarity at the time as he was becoming more and more entrenched in playstyle, as shown with Shellder (Which I randomly made a self-meme to take jabs at at the time for reasons I forget – my MYM 6 SM is the only real lasting evidence) who came long before Ryuk.

38: AI Colonel



AI Colonel was the epitome of MYM 4. Complete and utter randomness with no explanation. Granted, unless I wanted to make a set based entirely off of random glitchy attacks like some of the standards when I ran out of quotes (Hence the mirrored bair), making moves based off his quotes was the only way to go. Despite this set receiving some of the best comments of any of my MYM 4 works, it got a grand total of 3 actual votes due to being near entirely forgotten. While the set obviously is crap by today’s standards due to playstyle, I’d recommend reading it a lot more then some of the other sets on here simply because of the lulz it can provide (Katapultar would probably SV this if it was posted today), especially to any MGS2 fans.

37: Captain Vul



^You have no idea how much torture is was to get a good picture of Vul.

Vul’s actual moveset is quite possibly the most in-smash movesets I’ve done in MYM 4, though at the end when I was straggling for the last few button inputs I made the jab, ftilt, and utilt stupidly creative. The set’s also a victim of absolutely ridiculous overdetail. I’m somewhat fond of the set’s grab game and it actually did have a –very- slight playstyle. . .His attacks tended to have low starting lag, but high ending lag, meaning the foe would have to play bait and punish with him. Granted, that’s hardly a playstyle and is more of a playing against style, but it’s better then nothing (Most MYM 4 sets).

As for the rest of the Halberd Crew. . .I never read them, hence why the three movesets have nothing in common. I’m particularly fond of the extras this set has if only for the Halberd conversations. The Halberd conversations in my MYM 4 SM were, in fact, what lead to this set’s existence.

36: Big the Cat



. . .Yeah, Big’s a good bit higher then K. Rool 1 and Yoshimitsu, though not without good reason. Big was a notable improvement over K. Rool with BBCode and no blatantly stolen attacks (Save Dedede’s dash, though that was all too fitting!). Furthermore, Big had a good deal more creative with Froggy, who was used consistently enough to not be a generic prop. While there’s a generic prop in the boulder in the Up Special, the way he spins it around himself like a flail on his fishing rod is directly taken from Sonic Heroes. . .More importantly, if he spins it around too long the line from the fishing pole ties him up and he falls over. Sloth’s dsmash, anyone? Granted, no excuse for the dair boulder prop, which was fittingly the most hated move in the set, though for the wrong reasons due to it being too powerful (Despite the lag making it a Warlock Punch).

35: Klump and Krusha



Klump and Krusha was an extremely disjointed mess and was before the chat came around so all our communication was in PMs, making the set flow essentially like a (less terrible) MYM 5 Metagross. Granted, playstyle was an extreme rarity and very few people cared about it (And those that did were still fans of some playstyle-less sets), so I don’t see why this set was received so very poorly in comparison to all the others. The extras? Nothing more then the usual from a MW set at the time. There actually was a slight bit of potential for playstyle in there in some of their more basic moves that caused them to interact, and in the MYM 6 remake of the set by Kupa those moves which were kept were actually some of the more complimented ones, ironically.

34: Envy



It pains me to rank my favorite character so low, but Envy’s playstyle really is all over the place and he’s blatantly overpowered. The most he’s got going for him is a few move interactions like the zombies and the bair. He tried to go for a playstyle revolving around getting a KO move, but he has so many potential KO methods already it’s rather irrelevant. Envy contradicts himself in a Sukapon esque fashion, and it’s much more deeply implemented into the set then just what a few numbers can fix. Many button inputs would need to be entirely scrapped. This still does have some playstyle with move interactions, but that’s about it. Most of my support of the set’s been blatant fanboyism simply because it does Envy justice (The overpoweredness makes it –more- in character). He’s my worst MYM 6 set pretty easily. Mock this instead of Bull, Wizzerd. Yes, I will continue to do match-ups with him because he’s Envy and because he makes a good stock overpowered character to go with Mewtwo.

333: Missingno



Missingo is my best organized set to this day, save perhaps Kel’Thuzad and Gluttony considering Missingno’s organization is so unreadable. The organization scared Tanookie off and is the reason MYM 5 K. Rool is on the MYM 5 top 50 over Missingno, seeing Tanookie’s the one who got the pick. Rool, however, organization ***** that he is, loved the bloody thing. The actual set is as random as ever, though it fits Missingno a lot more to be random then a traditional character. Spadefox considered “randomness” a viable playstyle for Missingno and thought he’d be my frontrunner (Despite thinking Zasalamel was better). Shows how much Spadefox thinks of playstyle, eh? In any case, this is a fun read in a similar manner to AI Colonel, though not so much for lulz and more-so for all the references to the 1st gen Pokemon glitches.

32: Voldo



Voldo is credited for starting the detail movement, though Mendez was doing it back with his earliest MYM 3 sets long before I was. He was the one who inspired me to put on more and more detail. The only reason I take the credit for it is because I was much more dramatic about it and called all the MYM 2 era sets with no detail pieces of shit. It was quite the wake-up call to say the least, and gained me my hatebase from some of the less well performing MYMers such as Twilty which is still very much present today (Though granted, the views of some MYMers is more love/hate).

Granted, Voldo was a good step up for me and helped –me- to realize how important detail was. It was just a natural progression for me before. Voldo also possessed much more creativity then any of my previous sets with his back attacks, a massive improvement over Yoshimitsu. Certainly far from perfect, though, as his aerials are still generic attacks with no detail. Voldo was posted on my 17th Birthday and I tried to remake him to post him on my 18th birthday for the anniversary, but I failed horribly and just dropped it due to being unable to come up with a playstyle.

31: Nightmare



Nightmare is the set where I started picking things up considerably more. . .He introduced MYM to mechanics. They were very scarce before Nightmare, but Nightmare’s was actually playstyle relevant. Yes, Nightmare actually had a good playstyle concept. Go crazy when you get off a Soul Charge, stall until you can get it up again once it expires. I was actually trying to do this with my Goblin Slaver set which I’ve semi abandoned (May pick up again), albeit with some other concepts as well. Nightmare was also my first introduction to HR as he commented on him (And insisted on spelling his name with a K).

30: Roller Coaster Tycoon



Roller Coaster Tycoon is a mode, not a character, and easily my most un-smash set I’ve ever made. He’s the definition of overdone traps – he has practically no actual attacks whatsoever, and his match-ups are all off the wall and he in general is absolute garbage tier. Things like the stalls actually functioning in the game was laughable. There’s such a thing as too true to character, and this is it.

Tycoon did flow somewhat with slight chain reactions of traps which nobody tends to give him credit for, and the fact I made this bloody work at all is a feat in itself. He’s also absolutely amazing when looked at as a MYM 4 set (Which seems to be what people look at him as) – he’d beat Kawasaki in a landslide who beat everything else in a landslide.

29: Mr. Sandman



. . .Sandman’s pretty scarily close to Bull for how much he was bashed. Why? Because Bull’s playstyle concept is much, much, much better. What Sandman has over, Bull, though, is that all of his moves are entirely relevant to his playstyle. Sandman flows incredibly well. . .What’s bad about him? What he flows into is worse then a generic playstyle. What he flows into is the epitome of everything that’s bad about combo characters. He’d always end up pulling off the same combos with the exception of ending them differently based off whether he was trying to damage rack or KO, further enforced by Sandman being forced into only having one combo starter. Sandman was somewhat unique on paper about how he comboed, but he ultimately still plays the same way as a combo character and has an extremely telegraphed playstyle. Granted, this is the single most generic character with the least potential in all of Punch Out. Little else could be made for him, and the no nonsense comboing playstyle does fit his serious champion personality (Or lack there-of) in Punch Out Wii.

28: Bald Bull



Bull had plenty enough creativity, which while generally not notable in MYM 6 is more-so for the character. If anything he has more creative individual moves then Bear Hugger and Sandman (Proven by GW liking him so much, little other explanation), despite Lionheart going on forever about the occasional boring move (Big whoop). It was made in 1.5 days for a character who’s game I’d never played. Deal.

While this description might sound like there’s no playstyle, it’s very much there, more-so then Envy certainly. He’s more then enough equipped to be a tank and good at survival, and he has an mechanic somewhat like Lucario’s aura (Though limited to one move) to capitalize on the tanking. While the playstyle is there and flows, there are a lot of moves that are unfortunately irrelevant to the playstyle, which is the main thing that leads people like Rool to believe that the playstyle that is there isn’t. Bull’s a prime candidate for a remake in that I see more potential in his mechanic in a similar manner to MYM 5 Gluttony.

27: Ludicolo



The supposed worst set of my MYM 6 sets actually manages to beat out Bald Bull and Envy on the list. . .Impressive. Ludicolo’s flaws are for the most part easily taken down. The main thing ***** about him is balance, but the balance problems are near entirely just casual numbers that can be slid around for easy fixes (Save the broken bair/dsmash combo). Ludicolo’s actual core concepts of dancing to the music and flooding the stage and using his underwater aerials for gimps runs strong and are widely praised, not bashed, save by Ocon for being unsmash. I blame Ludicolo’s poor reception based off character choice – because of Ludicolo being a Pokemon and actually well known, he was the most read of any of my sets and the most commented to this day. Because of this he had a general snowball effect of negative commentary, and when people like Lionheart and Phatcat did very detailed move by move reviews that attacked the balance so massively it was all too easy to jump on the bandwagon.

26: Gobjob



The basic concept behind Gobjob was simple – Chemical Rage and **** the foe during the duration, then go run and camp/stall until Chemical Rage cools down. That alone could’ve been plenty enough to make a cool moveset off of and be a unique playstyle, but I have to throw in that stupid slavery thing for the lulz then throw in that even more stupid Goblin Shredder for a reward for gold which I had no playstyle ideas for outside generic woodcutting to get more gold. Yes, spend your gold on a way to get more gold! Brilliant! Needless to say I quickly ran out of ideas for button inputs for 2 sets and was horrified when I still had 7 aerials left to do. Had I aimed smaller and more down to earth, this could’ve been a fantastic set. The stalling in front of the marketplace was somewhat relevant as stalling also flowed into stalling for Chemical Rage – if I’d just prevented Gobjob from separating from his ogre and removed the gold mechanic, then this could’ve been decent.

25: Ninetales



Ninetales is a particularly rushed one day Pokeset. I’m a huge fan of the concept of centering a character around grab-counters seeing it makes the game revolve all the more around grabs, but there’s only so many ways you can do that before you stack them all together and they become broken as hell. Considering that I just stared blankly when not making any inputs that weren’t related to getting foes to grab her tail, I end up with some awkward inputs like uair/dair, which while are playstyle relevant and creative are just. . .Awkward and make her more insanely overpowered. Also, rest. Ignoring the balance, the set’s decent enough, and is for whatever reason one of three MW sets with musical headers.

24: Gluttony (MYM 5)



Gluttony was my earliest set with what I’d consider a true playstyle. It’s far from an original one and there wasn’t that much flow, but I’d say it’s on the level of Bald Bull. Looking back at it I’d say the flaws are similar to that of Bull in that there are far too many playstyle irrelevant moves, though these moves have more going against them in terms of being OOC. In any case, though, Gluttony had enough blueprints in his playstyle to warrant a remake, which deserves a good deal of credit when Envy was remade due to being a terrible and completely unrecognizable. Plorf and Rool somehow even prefer this set to it’s remake regardless of the time. A bunch of loons, I tell you.

Oh, and also, I consider Gluttony and Alphonse as not possessing the extras at all and blame them entirely on Lust and FMA Man, FYI.

23: The Joker



The Joker aged worse then Cortiny and Dimentio simply for less playstyle. He still had all the creativity needed at the time, and his Kupa esque props were more warranted because of the character choice. I’m also very proud of the grab game for obvious reasons, and it managed to weasel it’s way into the Count to boot. Joker managed to place the highest of my MYM 4 works due to the most creativity. Joker still does have more playstyle then my other MYM 4 esque sets in being a trap character, and he has enough to mix it up in being a grab whore. His lack of flow keeps him below Dimentio and Cortiny, though.

22: Venusaur



Venusaur’s a pretty by the book defensive character and is what I’m talking about when I want people to look more into newer stuff. Granted, he does what he does well, which is more then what a good chunk of other sets lower then Venusaur on the list can say, and he has some cool stuff going on in there with the uthrow/uair combo, the uthrow in particular being one of my most thought out moves ever. I’m honestly very surprised how well I handled the air game to make it both relevant and interesting while still having Venusaur be the usual heavyweight who’s trying to get out of it. Aside from that, we have to keep in mind this set was made in one day and was what started the movement of one day Pokesets. Yes, I was the one who proposed it. I proposed it a few times before, but this time DM was all like “Probopass! :D” and went along with it, so it actually happened.

21: Bear Hugger



Bear Hugger’s playstyle is far more unique then Sandman or Bald Bull’s. Grabs have never been done so blatantly as with Bear Hugger – save perhaps the Count. His sticky gloves mechanic is truly a sight to behold and one of my favorites out of all my sets. . .Though that’s essentially the entire set right there. Rool attacked me too aggressively on Bull on wanting him to be more simple, causing me to make several inputs which were largely irrelevant to the playstyle aside from being the best grab in certain situations (Most of the standards and fsmash). The aerials. . .Are essentially more of Bald Bull and largely irrelevant, though I was running out of moveset potential on him. Still, the playstyle very much flows. That’s not the problem. . .The problem is it flows a bit too much and that he shares problems with combo characters, though it’s not nearly as bad with Sandman and his playstyle is overall much more unique.

20: Dimentio



Dimentio is like the Joker but with more legitimate playstyle which is why he has more lasting appeal. Dimentio is another trap character, though his Side Special Boom Box (Still one of my favorite moves I’ve ever done) gives him actual time to plant his traps, or, god forbid, charge that ridiculous fsmash of his (Blatant example of MYM 4’s unsmashness and nothing but Mario RPG fanservice). Dimentio also is one of my few lightweights, though he’s still an antagonist so that’s rather irrelevant. I remember back when I first finished Super Paper Mario and was calling it an actually decent game and Dimentio was better then Kefka as a character. . .Olololololololololol

19: Cervantes



Cervantes had much better manipulation of his mechanic then Nightmare and his mechanic is actually relatively unique by today’s standards, though looking back at it I cringe at the luck factor involved. The mechanic manipulation supplied much better playstyle and creativity then with Nightmare and the mechanic was better in general. It also was the original Final Smash that had you control the enemy, which has since been ripped off countless times. I eventually pointed it out enough that it finally stopped as people cringed at the concept of me yelling at them. The final perpetrator was Tanookie’s Hypno in MYM 5.

18: Cortex and Tiny



I actually still like Cortiny’s stage. The rest of the extras can go burn in hell. Can you believe I actually thought they’d HELP me? Cortiny could’ve been posted in MYM 3, he was all ready at the time, but Rool insisted I hold him back. Just as well, Dracula’s hype train had too much time to build and was essentially unbeatable, regardless of this set being considered far “better” at the time. This is still the longest set ever posted in MYM due to blatant overdetail and extras.

Why’s it so high? It tends to have more playstyle then my other MYM 4 esque sets. Solo Tiny has to protect Cortex when they separate, and when they’re together they have to play it safe with some of their weaker moves before baiting the foe into an all powerful move that forces them to separate (And you to play as the crappy solo Cortex) alone, such as the uair which I randomly praised for it’s stupid creativity (Everybody else liked the thing too when previewed at the time. . .Except Rool, starting his life long hate of uairs).

17: Zasalamel



Yes, I know the picture is too small. Zasalamel was like Gluttony, but he was actually a conscious effort for playstyle and didn’t just happen on his own. Spadefox was ironically the main thing that made the set turn out like it did (And he super voted it over Alphonse and Ryuk to keep me from winning). . .Moving on, Zasalamel had far more flow then Gluttony with much less irrelevant button inputs, and opened my eyes to playstyle for the first time. I really felt good about him and actually enjoyed writing his playstyle section significantly when I normally considered it a chore. Gluttony, Zasalamel, and Ryuk are the main three leaps on my way to truly learning playstyle. Zasalamel’s only real flaw is that what he flows into isn’t that interesting in that he could be looked at as a camper at a glance, but he’s ultimately more of a melee ranged character, his only projectile being laggy and predictable. Looking back I’d say this is better then Sandman regardless of it’s time simply because of the more interesting playstyle
which still holds up today.

16: Gluttony (MYM 6)



Gluttony’s remake turned him into one of my most flowing sets ever, hands down. He removed the MYM 5 version’s OOC irrelevant playstyle moves such as the god**** pooping and farting moves while having plenty far more creative (And entirely relevant) moves of his own, such as the Up Special and Dair. His playstyle is defensive to the point of not wanting to move at all, but rather then camping all his moves are dedicated to getting the foe away so he can have more time to himself to build his mechanic. Damage racking is contained within the Neutral Special and Fsmash without deviating from this playstyle should Gluttony want to rack some, though he doesn’t need any due to being able to get the foe off-stage with his grab then gimp them. Sure, it’s not the most unique playstyle ever (The only reason Rool doesn’t like this set that much), but it can’t really be classified as anything and isn’t that basic. The biggest regret I have with the set is that it had somewhat of a Bear Hugger esque “flowchart” playstyle, though I still very much like this set, and MT, Kupa, and Kholdstare can’t get enough of this thing.

15: Alphonse



Alphonse was the set following Ryuk and considered my other Zant/Romero esque frontrunner in MYM 5. He flowed just as much as Ryuk and Zasalamel, quite thankfully, and his trap playstyle was widely praised at the time. Obviously this doesn’t age as well as Ryuk, though, because traps are obviously such an original playstyle nowadays, right? Considering traps are one of the main things that made us all discover playstyle, mmmyeah. Al does nothing in particular to distinguinish himself in this regard.

I can look at some redeeming factors despite the age, though. Alphonse was the one who truly popularized match-ups and did them far better then anyone had ever attempted. While they still pale in comparison to my match-ups now and force things, not all of it is forced (Mainly bias against smaller characters in the set) and the set was built with an actual purpose to single handedly balance Brawl by his inclusion. The size bias didn’t favor the largest of characters either, allowing Al to kill Dedede in addition to MK while losing to Ganondorf and Bowser. . .Albeit with laughably skewered numbers. Alphonse also has another interesting thing going for him that hasn’t been done since outside Clefable – an actual focus on how he’d play in doubles, the primary excuse for the absolutely ridiculous Neutral Special. Most cases of randomness in the set can be attributed to flowing into a separate playstyle for doubles while Ryuk is left with little to no excuse for his irrelevant playstyle moves (Granted, Ryuk’s weren’t nearly as bad).

Just a slight gap between FMA Man and Alphonse, yes? That’s because I read the manga in-between them. The gap between FMA Man and Alphonse is the same as the gap between the manga and the first anime. If you watched that horrible anime over it, I want nothing whatsoever to do with you. This means you, HR, Ocon, MT, Twilty, Silver, DM, etc. They’re even making the manga into another anime for you lazy *** fuckers. Watch Brotherhood, for the love of god. Jesus.

14: Lightweight Female Protagonist



I know Rool’s gonna pounce on me for placing Lightweight Female Protagonist the lowest of my MYM 7 sets. A lot of shifting around has occurred as I’ve been actually forced to make write-ups for the sets, though. As an outsider and being forced to attack and defend these sets, Lightweight Female Protagonist is easily the most vulnerable of the three. I love everything at 12 and above to pieces, though, really. It pains me to attack these sets. I can perfectly see how someone would prefer Lucy to Morton or Kel. They’re all amazing.

Lightweight Female Protagonist’s playstyle concept is one I can’t really get enough of. Quite possibly my favorite ever just for the simple brilliance of it. . .The foe is a rat in an invisible maze. She flows plenty enough too, that’s not the problem. . .It’s that she flows a bit too much and has somewhat of a Bear Hugger esque flowchart playstyle. It’s not terrible as she’s forced to vary things up each time she rebuilds her fortress, but aside from that there’s really not much else to it beyond running like the little whore you are. There’s that, and then there’s the fact that this is quite possibly the most OOC playstyle I’ve ever done for the character. She’s supposed to be at your throat goring your face with her vectors, not running like a pansy and hiding behind them. Perhaps I should’ve just made her an OC? Would’ve earned me more Junahu points and would’ve allowed me to turn her into a heavyweight antagonist. . .

Fun Fact: Lucy was originally going to be naked complete with a picture at the start of the set for it, like in her appearance in at the start of the first episode. Then I decided to not get banned.

13: Morton



Morton expands on the blueprints Alphonse set in trying to single handedly balance Brawl in his inclusion. Not only is he trying to balance Brawl, he’s trying to balance the entirety of MYM, a far more difficult feat. Of course, Alphonse’s method of forcing match-ups is long dead and it’s near impossible to balance the entirety of MYM, thus Morton is simply trying to not spite anyone by blatantly countering them while not being countered himself. Morton is ultimately the standard. If you have better then a 65/35 match-up on him, you’re overpowered (Sorry, he’s not immune to that). Granted, Morton does counter aerial characters pretty badly as evidenced in the Kel’Thuzad match-up, but again, that’s only a 65/35. Wario, another blatant aerial character, only goes 45/55 against Morton. Wario was what Morton was modeled after – totally viable with next to no bad match-ups, but someone nobody hates playing against.

Morton has plenty of flow while still having the options to mix things up, having the direct opposite of a Bear Hugger flowchart playstyle. This ability to actually react to the enemy is the primary thing that allows him to have such even match-ups, and yet he still has plenty of flow, albeit most of it flowing into his defensive playstyle with his offense being more something he does on defensive characters who can’t go offensive. The only thing I really regret with this set is that I had to fill up some attacks to get the set done such as the blatant claw attacks. . .But really, what else is there for freaking Morton? Morton’s as painfully generic as Sandman is as a character, and it’s a wonder I was able to accomplish as much as I did with such a insanely generic character.

. . .Yeah, Lightweight Female Protagonist’s playstyle is more original, but she still has flaws and Morton is trying to do something beyond simply making a unique playstyle, and his very few flaws can be justified through character choice. Lightweight Female Protagonist has so much potential it’s not even funny. Morton. . .Is Morton.

12: Inspector Lunge



You can’t find anything that comes remotely close to matching Lunge, though that’s because he’s so insanely unsmash. Despite having a far higher learning curve then Tycoon could ever hope to have, Lunge is ultimately much more playable at high levels of play what with his more offensive style that actually *gasp* involves lot of attacking the victim. You’ve heard of positioning games, yes? Well, Lunge isn’t some elementary Marth, he’s about positioning the foe, not himself, dragging them along with him wherever he goes to do the perfect re-enactment and get the evidence he needs. Of course, there’s also matters of positioning himself as well for re-anctments as the killer, but he has many tools to hit with his close range moves, not the least of which includes Hand Cuffing the foe.


11: Kel’Thuzad



I don’t care what any of you say. I fucking love Kel’Thuzad. I agree that he should’ve had a bit more time for polish and had more emphasis on his potential to vary things up like Morton (Which he still can do and can be seen in the playstyle section somewhat, I just should’ve given it more emphasis) rather then just labeling him “offensive summons character”, but. . .That’s about it. He’s a protector who defends his Ghouls, more often then not by going offensive while being invulnerable because of his Mana Shield.

The main problem seems to be that I left off a single sentence of detail on the Neutral Special that you could freaking move and attack while you had it up, despite it being blatantly implied in every other attack in the set and at least 10 times in the playstyle. I think I’m going to keep that sentence out just to spite you, tyvm. Somehow the set starts with a rushed feel, as everybody wants the set to have more detail rather then being readable. Nevermind that Rool’s sets don’t make a lick of sense and nobody attacks him for it. This readability is futher enhanced by my best organization ever and actually good musical headers. I feel none of the criticism for this set is legitimate and I can’t quite get around how much I love the concept of a minions character who’s minions hide behind him rather then visa versa. Comparing him to the likes of Arthas and Romero is just ridiculous. If you think that at all, you missed the entire point of this moveset. I’ve never had quite as much fun working on a moveset as I’ve had with Kel’Thuzad.

10: Kimblee



Many of you reading this probably don’t even know who the hell this is. . .Because he’s not a MYM set. Between MYM 6 and 7, everybody started making these custom games, but they were all long abandoned once MYM 7 came out and nobody really gave a damn about them. Kimblee was a character for my FMA based Smash Bros game and the only one that ultimately got made due to how ignored he was due to his location, resulting in me tossing the game to the side. All the other MYMers had already done the same with their own games.

But Kimblee is another hidden gem in the same manner as Skarmory. How utterly he turns the mechanics of his game up-side down isn’t even funny, but he’s not particularly un-smash. What’s he do? He can gimp in a game without ledges, that’s what. He blows up holes in the ground to make a blast zone off the bottom of the stage. There’s that, and he has plenty of brilliant interactions with the holes when they’re not that deep by trapping the foe inside them and making it absolute hell for the foe to get out. He’s balanced by all the self damage he takes, and in a stamina based game that’s much more crippling then in Smash Bros, making him the ultimate glass cannon. Considering his damage goes down so fast, he’ll certainly be able to make use of his (Insanely in-character) suicide KOs. . .

I’d port him over to MYM for all of you ungrateful idiots to see, but that’d ruin his beauty. Only the highest class MYMers can wet their taste buds with such a delicious moveset. This moveset is forbidden, only the eyes of MW, HR, Wizzerd, MT, Khold, and Ocon will ever know it’s greatness.

Read this. NOW (Read the Game Mechanics first though). In fucking detail (This means you, DM and Smady). It’s easily better then any of my MYM 7 sets by far. Yes, Rool, including Lightweight Female Protagonist. Yes, the organization’s disgusting, I fuckng know that, it’s because it’s on Wordpress who was ****** me up the *** just to get the bloody thing posted.

9: Skarmory



Many tend to forget Skarmory exists, myself included. In a way he’s better then Ryuk if only for the fact that he was more down to earth and had next to no random moves, albeit his playstyle isn’t nearly as unique due to him being a trap character. Skarmory still puts a very unique spin on the typical trap character, however, with him meshing his traps together with his whirlwinds and him having to fan the whirlwinds to keep them from expiring. I’d easily recommend giving this hidden gem a read by today’s standards. Ignore the usmash and the Sand Attack button input to set it up – that was an actual attempt to interact with Steven’s other Pokemon (One of next to none) and would be removed in an instant if Skarmory was intended to go as a solo set, which he very easily could be. Had Skarmory flown solo, he’d of easily made his way to the top 10 alongside Al and Ryuk, but was bogged down by the abomination of a 6 way joint Metagross. Perhaps we should’ve done it Eeveelution style?

8: Golem



This is more underappreciated then Kel’Thuzad was, IMHO. It took what people liked about Cairne, then expanded upon it massively while taking a new spin on it that made him play far more differently then Cairne. Golem’s set-up is much more complex then Cairne’s, though it’s still not a bother like the typical set-up character. I’m particularly a fan of the underground tunnel maze concept I came up with at the end. Golem’s a trapper/camper to be certain, but he’s very unique in how he goes about everything and focuses more on forcing his foes to run the gauntlet again and again/making it harder for foes to do so rather then bland generic camping. Did I mention the fact that this masterpiece who’s position is extremely warranted is indeed a one day Pokeset? I’m a monkey on crack. A fat monkey on crack, but a monkey on crack none the less. Even more insane, Spy is 2 days, but we’ll get to that.

7: Valozarg



The concept of a 3 on 1 is something truly groundbreaking, much less taking advantage of it for a 40/10 size character. I don’t know why the lot of you aren’t as big fans of the blood as I am, particularly when you have something like Up Special bringing a lot of it together so spectacularly. This is quite possibly the most playable of unsmash sets (And outside the whole size/3 on 1 thing, he’s perfectly smash), and he actually –doesn’t- have a stupidly high learning curve. Learning him couldn’t be easier what with you still being able to fight 1 on 1 with him. Sure, he’s a bit overpowered (Under his own rules), but this is what helps him make him as accessible as he is and he’s not obviously not made for any sort of tournament setting. Besides, he’s supposed to be a boss – it’s supposed to be a challenge taking him down.

6: Dingodile



Dingodile is near universally loved by MYM, save MT and Half_Silver. He didn’t need a failed hype train or a successful one to get anywhere and was quite the shocker of making top 4 and beating out Sloth. Had MT (Who dislikes random sets of mine – I particularly feel his hate of Dingodile and Kel is unjustified) and Silver not disliked this set for as random as reasons they did, this thing could’ve won MYM 6 quite easily.

Granted, I would’ve been disappointed if he won over the Count or Sloth. Not to say there’s anything whatsoever wrong with Dingodile (Save perhaps the Side Special) but he’s. . .How to say it? Less perfect? I don’t know. In any case, Dingodile countered the petty pressure of the day and made a revolution in playstyles, and his playstyle is still perfectly unique. Yeah, there’s camping. Campcampcampcampcamp. But there’s no set-up and he has more to it with his suicide kills (Which are actually extremely playstyle relevant rather then random, as they’re his only way to KO). Playing against him also obviously proved to be a very unique experience. Dingodile grows better and better with age. That week was quite possibly one of the best MYM’s ever seen with both Dingodile and the Eeveelutions.

5: The Count



Nonsense! This is the MW set that won him his MYM that he demanded! Yeah, it's great, but. . . This set is so much easier to attack then Sloth it’s not even funny. There’s still plenty of good about the set and I’m still obviously a big fan of it, I’m very much happy it won. Two desynched characters entirely different from each other is a brilliant concept and pulled off quite well in this set with all of their various interactions with each other, primarily with the Count’s intricate grab game.

Yeah, the writing style is bad, but it’s not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. So are the musical headers, but again, they’re often exaggerated. As an actual moveset this is as good or better then Sloth, but those very real flaws hold it down from Sloth’s height pretty firmly. Furthermore, two characters, one of which can spew slime and change his body mass into it at will, have a hell of a lot more potential then a generic lazy hulk with chains.

4: The Spy



THIS is how you do unsmash. You don’t pretend that your moveset is going to fit in the confines of such a horrific game as Smash Brothers, you make an entirely new game. Capture the Flag would be the most campy game ever made, but the Spy is around to ensure that things move along at a reasonable pace and is a character designed to destroy the metagame. The Spy takes full advantage of the potential the mode gives him in his moveset and is a ridiculously large mindgame playground. This could be compared somewhat to a “do it yourself” playstyle, but I offer many of the massive amount of possible strategies throughout the set. I’m obviously proud of how unique the Spy’s playstyle is, and despite it being so outlandish I honestly feel it’s right at home in this mode and not nearly as far fetched as Lunge or even Lucy in regular Brawl. Besides, his high learning curve is actually relevant as it adds yet more layers of mindgames in posing as one of the many common noobs.

3: Cairne Bloodhoof



Cairne. . .Really, what’s the flaw here? While not everybody is a big fan of reincarnation, it’s never a deal breaker, and I personally endorse it whole heartedly, as it gives Cairne several different layers of playstyle. The amount the Reincarnation complements the stage alteration is a perfect fusion of concepts, like Dingodile’s camping and suicide kills only to an even greater degree. Cairne also doesn’t fall into any particular cliché like Dingodile. He’s certainly not a blatant set-up character, but he doesn’t get around by having many of the common instant Warlord set-ups. Instead, he’s actually capable of setting up under pressure. Who’d of guessed? The shift between offense and defense here is something I was aiming for in Gobjob, but it got bogged down with too many other concepts which weren’t nearly as good. And of course, Cairne is much like Sloth in that he’s such a simple generic character. I whole heartedly agree with Rool when he says restrictions breed creativity, as if your character has too much potential you won’t have any idea where to start.

2: Sloth



Sloth. . .Is flawless. Like, entirely. The move interactions are so numerous and intricate that this moveset can’t be separated at all. He flows so well into such a great playstyle, all of his aspects being fully explored. It’s just about flawless. This set is very readable unlike the Count and was quite praised for it, and above all else all of this greatness is coming from one of the most generic characters of all time. I strangled Sloth to death until he gave me all of his hidden potential within him. The only reason this thing didn’t win was because of the backfiring hype campaign – Khold loved this thing before it then spat on it just to spite it after it. This is the epitome of movesetting, I can’t find anything I dislike about the set (Save the Final Smash, but that’s not nearly as bad as Subaru’s bland throws and aerials or Strangelove’s head stretcher grab game and is irrelevant to the playstyle automatically by button input).

This is my most notable interaction with Ocon by far. If not for him, the sleeping mechanic would’ve been forced in that he would’ve always fallen asleep every 15 seconds. Yes, every 15 seconds let’s have the game take the controller away from you and force you to stop playing. Fun!

1: Ryuk



Ryuk was when I truly started enjoying making movesets again. With my eyes opened to playstyle making movesets was an entirely difference experience – he’s what saved me from the abyss. He still easily holds today with his extremely unique playstyle of the Death Note and pressuring the foe to prevent them from dodging the blast. Him being forced to kill foes with the Death Note forced him to stay ahead, but his Side Special allowed him to ensure that he got the lead early on. I’m not that ashamed of the invisibility as it was still worked into his playstyle as another way to help ensure he could get into the lead seeing once he got a stock behind he lost the game, though I do feel it over complicated the set and made the focus a bit too blurry when the playstyle was already pleny unique enough. Ryuk’s other flaw of overdetail wasn’t nearly as frowned upon at the time. While that and the occasional random move stick out more now, they’d be extremely easy to edit out in a remake (Though I doubt I’d come up with much of anything new, so I’d just be editing out the bad, so he probably won’t be remade), and if they were I feel he’d easily beat the likes of Sloth and the Count today, much less for his time.
 

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
8,998
Perhaps a fake question mark block as a new type of container item would be good. Other then that, we need a better balance of Pokeball Pokemon so that when you get it it isn't usually a useless one.

I'm one of the few people who likes Soul Calibur for the characters, no, not the over emphasized women, either. They have better back stories then characters from other fighting games, which has turned me into a fan for a good number of said characters from the series. While their backstories aren't as detailed as the ones in Mortal Kombat, they haven't had a massive amount of games to develop like said characters from Mortal Kombat.

But anyway, you can't deny that the characters make Smash more then any other video game, EVER. You take them out, the game would be considered trash. Do the same to Soul Calibur, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, etc, nobody would really care.
Except Mortal Combat is said by many people to be trash....

Anyway, I agree. Smash Bros. would have never have taken off had it not been for the Nintendo characters in it.
 

MasterWarlord

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
2,902
Location
Not wasting countless hours on a 10 man community
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayHDQnt3GAUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayHDQnt3GAUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayHDQnt3GAU


Kel’Thuzad was once but a high ranking Necromancer in the Undead Scourge, but he was quickly slain by a young Paladin by the name of Arthas. After Arthas obtained a powerful sword called Frostmourne to slay Mal’Gannis the Dreadlord, the sword overtook him and he became a Death Knight, working for the scourge. Arthas was assigned with Kel’Thuzad’s revival, and the process turned him into a powerful Lich. Despite their former encounter, Kel’Thuzad got along with Arthas quite well and became somewhat of a mentor to him. Eventually Arthas lead the Undead Scourge away from the Burning Legion of demons who stood over them, and Kel’Thuzad stayed loyal to Arthas, joining him in the movement as his second in command.

As far as the Undead go, Kel’Thuzad is relatively calm about what he has to do. He’s not a simple butcher who takes joy in the killings, but he couldn’t care less about the lives of the mortal races. He treats the killings as a completely normal occurrence – a casual day job. He’s clearly been with the Undead Scourge a while what with all the lore he knows -- all his sense of humanity was abandoned long ago.

Kel’Thuzad uses mana for many of his attacks. It’s a fairly standard ammo bank mechanic with a meter displayed under his percentage. He starts with it maxed out at 300 mana.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_1_dKYiEqkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_1_dKYiEqkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_1_dKYiEqk

Traction: 10
Priority: 9
Range: 9
Size: 8
Aerial Movement: 7.5
Attack Speed: 7
Recovery: 6.5
Power: 5.5
Jumps: 5
Movement: 5
Weight: 3
Falling Speed: 2

Kel’Thuzad’s doesn’t really have much of a weakness in stats aside from his weight, and when combined with his floatiness and his size he’s rather frail in a similar manner to Mewtwo. His other stats are for the most part more offset by his mechanic, and a decent chunk of Kel’Thuzad’s attack speed comes from his instant set-up moves. His moves for actually attacking generally have some actual lag present.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr1PfB5ght8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr1PfB5ght8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr1PfB5ght8

Down Special – Legacy of the Damned




Assuming a Graveyard isn’t on screen, Kel’Thuzad laglessly summons one up in the background, completely invulnerable. The Graveyard comes complete with 5 corpses, and should you use up any of the corpses the Graveyard will spawn a new corpse every 20 seconds.



If you already have your Graveyard up, using this move causes Kel’Thuzad to animate all corpses into Zombies with as much lag as Dedede’s usmash. Zombies have Mario’s stats complete with a second jump, though their only attacks are Wario’s ftilt and fair, albeit with more feral animations. Zombies pursue foes relentlessly. . .Which isn’t entirely good, as that means they’re easy to lure off stage to their doom. They have 30 stamina each, so they’re obviously not much a threat on their own. . .Though considering you have 5 corpses right off the bat, they can prove to be of some use in packs.


Side Special – Dark Ritual




Kel’Thuzad sacrifices the nearest undead with very little lag and gives you triple his stamina in mana. This is the primary function of your Zombies. As actual summons, they’re nothing but mindless distractions, as they’re too stupid and weak to allow you to hide behind them like a traditional summons character. So long as you have Zombies, though, you have infinite mana.

Neutral Special – Mana Shield




Kel’Thuzad activates or deactivates his Mana Shield based on whether it was already active or not. With it up, the shield will take all damage and knockback for Kel’Thuzad, attacks instead damaging his mana for double the damage they’d normally do. So long as you have Zombies, you have mana, and so long as you have mana, you’re invincible. Kel’Thuzad can still be grabbed and thrown as normal with a Mana Shield up.

[Variable Mana]

Up Special – Corpse Sewing


A recovery? Why would you want something so trivial from an Up Special? Kel’Thuzad has a float much like Peach’s as his primary form of recovery. In this float he’s treated as if he’s on the ground, allowing him to use his ground moves in the air.

For his actual Up Special, Kel’Thuzad enters a channeling motion, gaining superarmor and anti-grab armor. All Zombies will start coming towards Kel’Thuzad as he does the channeling. After 3 full seconds of channeling or all Zombies reach Kel’Thuzad, he uses a spell to combine them all into a massive Abomination.



The Abomination’s size is based off how many Zombies were used in summoning him. The minimum amount of corpses for the spell to work at all is 3, which makes the Abomination Bowser’s size. For every additional Zombie, the Abomination’s size is increased by X1.2. This increases the range and power of the Abomination’s attacks as he swings his meat hook and cleaver. His attacks are as powerful as Wario’s fsmash at minimum, reaching Giga Bowser’s fsmash with 10 Zombies. . .But his attacks are all as laggy as Warlock Punch, so yeah. The Abomination’s stamina is 25 X the amount of Zombies used to make him and he won’t pursue foes off ledges, so he’s around to stay. Furthermore, the Abomination can cannibalize on corpses to add them to his mass, healing 25 stamina to boot.

This is all well and good that you have a gigantic Abomination flailing his weapons about that’s near impossible to kill, but the catch is that he’ll never actually hit anything and he’ll eat up all your corpses, leaving you with nothing to sacrifice for mana. Just make sure you animate a corpse ASAP upon summoning the Abomination before the glutton eats it so you can get a Zombie to sacrifice later. Granted, you can just use Dark Ritual on the Abomination himself, but that sends you back to square one with no corpses, meaning your Mana will go back down quite quickly.


[100 Mana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNc2d8MvKUwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNc2d8MvKUwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNc2d8MvKUw

Neutral Attack – Shadow Hand


Kel’Thuzad essentially performs Mewtwo’s jab. There aren’t any particularly interesting tricks just using it on the ground, though the move is somewhat more difficult to DI out of and if a Zombie or two comes over and starts smacking at the foe from the other side they’ll find it difficult to escape until their damage gets high enough that the Zombie’s attack knocks them out of it. Furthermore, with your float you can keep floating towards the foe as they DI away to chase them to prevent escape. This is an infinite until your float expires and can also function as a decent wall of pain. Just be careful you don’t run out of mana in the middle of it.

[10 Mana per second]

Dashing Attack – Touch of Darkness


Kel’Thuzad does a swinging motion with his arm as he spins forward the distance of a Battlefield platform at his normal dash speed. Kel’Thuzad’s arm has pretty poor range and functions as a grab hitbox as he swings it forward, him releasing the foe after the dash attack is complete with a slight bit of hitstun. No damage. Kel’Thuzad’s body is a low priority hitbox as he spins that deals 6% and weak set knockback.

The move’s main purpose is in the fact that you can grab Zombies with the swinging of your arm. This can get them out of harm’s way and stuns them briefly so they won’t mindlessly go back on the attack and even defends Kel’Thuzad slightly with a weak hitbox. Using this while floating is an ideal way to save a Zombie that stupidly pursued the foe off-stage from certain death.


Forward Tilt – Frost Armor




Kel’Thuzad hastily extends out an arm forwards, causing the nearest Undead unit in front of him (No matter how far away, though it has to be on the same vertical level as Kel’Thuzad) to gain Frost Armor for 15 seconds. The armor reduces damage foes due to the unit by 2%, and if the unit is hit with any form of melee attack the attacker’s attack and movement speed will be cut in half for a second due to the cold.

If no Undead units are in front of Kel’Thuzad, he casts it on himself, though he doesn’t get the damage reduction of the Frost Armor and the point of the move is to encourage foes to attack you. How so? Give all your Zombies Frost Armor so the foe is more encouraged to attack you instead of them due to not wanting to be slowed.


[35 Mana]

Up Tilt – Shadow Drop


Kel’Thuzad essentially performs Zelda’s uair with a darkness attribute on the ground, but the hitbox lingers on a decent bit, the blast is twice as large, and the move is roughly 1.5X as powerful. While this move is no laggier then Zelda’s uair, it pushes Kel’Thuzad down double Ganondorf’s height from the force of the blast, and seeing this is a ground move rather then an aerial is causes Kel’Thuzad to crash into the ground for horrible landing lag. To avoid this, you have to use this at an altitude with your float.

[25 Mana]

Down Tilt – Dark Shots


Kel’Thuzad essentially performs Rob’s dair and Lucas’s dsmash at the same time (He’s constantly floating off the ground slightly), but the flames that come out of his underside and the blasts from his hand have darkness attributes. The lag is slightly longer then Lucas’ dsmash, though the part of the move that mimics Lucas’ dsmash is only half as powerful. Rob’s dair, however, is just as powerful as ever. . .A shame that hitbox is directly below Kel’Thuzad and will just hit the ground.

Which is precisely why you use this move during your float. It provides defense from your front and below and can even be used for gimping. Furthermore, Rob’s dair pushes Kel’Thuzad up the distance of Link’s Up Special while each shot of Lucas’ dsmash pushes Kel’Thuzad backwards slightly, ultimately ending in him going backwards a Bowser length. An excellent recovery move.


[25 Mana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGEVgU3hmC8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGEVgU3hmC8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGEVgU3hmC8

Forward Smash – Frost Nova




This attack has about as much lag as Dedede’s fsmash, but it hits the foe regardless of their location as a nova of ice appears over them, requiring a spot dodge to be avoided. The nova deals 20-30% and knockback that kills at 150-105%. Because of you not having to aim this attack you can retreat with your float during the starting lag of the attack, use your usmash to speed up the attack or use an abomination as a meat shield during the start lag. Bypassing the lag on the move isn’t a problem, it’s the mana cost.

[80 Mana]

Up Smash – Unholy Frenzy




Kel’Thuzad controls a cursor during the charging of the move which moves around quite quickly, but not to the point of being uncontrollable. Upon release, whoever was targeted will be hit by Unholy Frenzy. You can target foes, yourself, or your undead minions. Whatever floats your boat. The actual use of the move is as quick as Snake’s utilt, though it’s quite telegraphed by the cursor.

Unholy Frenzy causes the target to take 4% per second, but also increases their attack speed by 75%. It lasts 20 seconds. Using this on Zombies is pointless due to how quickly it kills them, and using it on yourself is rather scary due to how light you are. . .But Mana Shield can block the damage to yourself, allowing you to wreak havoc on foes. An even better use of this is on Abominations to make their laggy attacks actually capable of hitting things, especially seeing they have so much stamina and can heal by cannibalizing.


[50 Mana]

Down Smash – Meat Wagon




Kel’Thuzad summons a Meat Wagon in front of him Bowser’s height and double his width with 35 stamina. This move has very little lag, but is near useless uncharged, as the charge determines how many corpses are in the Meat Wagon, anywhere from 1-8.

The Meat Wagon hurls corpses with lag worse then Warlock Punch at foes, though the range is the entirety of Final Destination. The corpses aren’t even particularly powerful despite their lag, though, only dealing 11% and knockback that kills at 235%. . .However, once the bodies hit the floor you can use the corpse as if it were one from your Graveyard. The wagon collapses after running out of corpses.

This would be a decent corpse production system if it weren’t for the fact the foe can just hover off the stage so the meat wagon throws the corpses into the abyss and can just tank the hits to prevent the corpses from becoming usable. Furthermore, the Meat Wagon has a minimum range, so if they stay next to it there’s not much it can do besides try to get away with it’s terrible movement speed. Despite it’s general incompetence, once you summon it it’s around to stay. If foes try to just destroy the thing, it’ll drop all the corpses remaining in it for your consumption, exactly what you want.


[60 Mana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tPk7wXOBYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tPk7wXOBYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tPk7wXOBY

Neutral Aerial – Death and Decay





Kel’Thuzad quickly turns to face the screen and starts performing the channeling animation shown above, levitating in mid-air for up to 6.5 seconds if left to himself. This causes all foes to start taking an unavoidable 5% every half second regardless of their location. Any attack will cause Kel’Thuzad to go into helpless and come out of this, though your Mana Shield can prevent this from being interrupted to ensure you plenty of free damage. Just don’t expect to have much Mana leftover afterwards. . .

If you keep your Mana Shield down while using the move, this move absolutely begs to be punished. Seeing you’ll be up in the air and the foe will want to end the move as soon as possible you probably won’t be punished that badly, meaning it’s worth taking a hit to get the foe to attack you instead of your precious Zombies.


[100 Mana]

Forward Aerial – Siphon Mana




Kel’Thuzad extends a hand out forward, causing a long blue stream to extend out from his hand infinitely horizontally at double Sonic’s dash speed. Should it come into contact with anyone, Kel’Thuzad will channel in place as he starts siphoning Mana out of the foe, 10 per half second. This lasts forever (Though Kel’Thuzad can cancel it) until the foe comes within Bowser’s width of Kel’Thuzad, making an excellent way to gain Mana and force the foe to approach, leaving your precious Zombies alone. This has starting lag on the level of Mario’s fsmash and gives Kel’Thuzad the same lag again if he whiffs the move, though seeing you’ll want to use the move when the foe’s far away they won’t have much to interrupt the start lag with.

Back Aerial – Chilling Touch


Kel’Thuzad laglessly turns his head around without turning around his body and extends a hand out backwards, making a single nova the size of Kirby appear behind him. This is faster then it sounds, Dedede’s bair to be precise. It only does 5%, but it causes the foe to be slowed from the cold for a second, cutting their movement and attack speed in half.

This effect can stack and the attack is fast enough that if you spam it you can actually start to build up the duration of it on somebody, though the only particularly likely scenario where it’ll go that far is if the foe is first slowed by hitting something with Frost Armor. This further discourages foes from attacking Zombies with Frost Armor, and even if they do you can go pressure them with this move.


[15 Mana]

Up Aerial – Frost Carrousel


Kel’Thuzad raises his hands skyward, becoming free to move about again after the lag of Dedede’s dsmash. After he’s free to move, a bunch of frost novas appear in a circular formation around where the foe was when Kel’Thuzad first activated the move. The novas linger on as a hitbox for a full second, dealing 7% and knockback towards the center of the formation, meaning they’ll just ricochet around inside it. Larger foes take more damage from this, but have the possibility of DIng out of it early due to being bigger then the Novas.

By default foes in the air will fall downwards into the bottom part of the formation by the time the lag’s done with making this good to defend against foes from above (Hence why it’s a uair) though if they predict the move and fast fall it’s quite avoidable. Against foes on the ground, they’re forced to stand in place to avoid the attack, making the move great for forcing the foe to back off from your Zombies.


[50 Mana]

Down Aerial – Shadow Blast


Kel’Thuzad starts charging a massive shadow ball above his head as he stops in place to levitate in mid-air for as much lag as Ike’s fsmash, then hurls the ball downwards. The ball itself only does 12% and knockback that kills at 180%, nothing to warrant the lag, but if the ball hits the ground it erupts into a massive blast half the size of Battlefield. This does no damage, but forces all foes and Zombies backwards to the edge of the blast radius, making plenty of space between them. When using the move for this purpose the lag isn’t much of an issue since the foe is focusing on the Zombies, though you have obvious methods for bypassing it anyway.

[40 Mana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8lWvLkW4_shttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8lWvLkW4_shttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8lWvLkW4_s

Grab – Death’s Clutches


Kel’Thuzad’s grab leaves much to be desired as he doesn’t use his magic for it, simply lurching forward like the elderly Undead he is. The range isn’t terrible though nothing to be excited about, though the lag is horrendous, on par with a tether grab. If you expect to do much grabbing with Kel’Thuzad, Unholy Frenzy is mandatory. Floating makes you less punishable as you can just float away during the end lag of the grab if you whiff it, but it doesn’t make landing the thing any easier.

Rest assured, it’s very much worth grabbing with Kel’Thuzad despite the difficulties. Even without looking at his throws, a rather obvious use is so that you can get the foe to stand still long enough to actually get hit by your Abomination. A prime KO option.


Pummel – Shadow Armor


Kel’Thuzad very quickly summons a weak shady armor around the foe. It has no ill effects and gives them superarmor until Kel’Thuzad throws them at which point it vanishes. . .Why would you want to give the foe superarmor? So the Zombies don’t interrupt your throw. The Zombies also function as more traditional pummeling mechanicisms and can rack up the damage pretty fast if they were already right there in large quantities. If you have a Mana Shield up, this also prevents outsiders from interrupting your throw in a FFA.

[15 Mana]

Forward Throw – Icy Path


Kel’Thuzad casts a spell to make all of the platform in front of him covered in ice, then shoves the foe forward for 5%, causing them to slip along the platform to the end of it very quickly. If the Zombies try to pursue the foe onto this ice they’ll just trip, meaning this is a great way to separate the foe and the Zombies. The icy patch lasts 5 seconds before returning to normal and gives the foe traction like on the Summit, though Kel’Thuzad is unaffected due to his natural floating stance.

[35 Mana]

Back Throw – Condemnation


Kel’Thuzad places his hands on the foe’s head and channels into them to turn them into an undead. The process deals 10% and lasts 20 seconds. As an undead, Zombies and Abominations won’t flock to the foe, just patrolling about and only attacking if they happen to come by. Killing the stupidly aggressive nature of your Zombies is a big plus and prevents you from having to babysit them so much, but if an undead foe uses their dtilt next to a corpse they can cannibalize on it to heal themselves of 20 stamina and destroy the corpse. This keeps your current Zombies alive a lot easier, but makes it difficult to make more.

[50 Mana]

Up Throw – Blast Off


Kel’Thuzad does a light shadow blast to toss the foe upward for 9% and knockback that kills at 210%. What should intruige you about the throw is that it makes the foe go into helpless, leaving them to be easy fodder for the Zombies to follow up on. If you launch the foe high enough up it’s possible for them to DI off the stage (Though close enough in to still easily grab the ledge) to lure the Zombies to their doom, but this also makes them an easy fsmash target due to them not fast falling.

[20 Mana]

Down Throw – Dark Slam


Kel’Thuzad releases the foe and quickly leaps up above the foe ever so slightly, then a weak shadow effect comes from his underside to deal 5% and weak set knockback, though somewhat notable hitstun. . .Enough to chain grab. While using this to chain grab all on your own generally isn’t worth the steep mana cost, if Zombies are pummeling away each time you re-grab the foe it could see some use. . .Though that’ll drain even more mana, and you don’t have enough time to use Dark Ritual and still re-grab the foe.

[25 Mana]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyhkTw99iYs&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyhkTw99iYs&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyhkTw99iYs&feature=related

Kel’Thuzad folds his arms and chuckles subtly as the screen zooms in on him, then he levitates up a decent ways into the background and summons a blighted platform to stand on as well as 4 Meat Wagons. The Meat Wagons still attack as slowly as ever and aren’t buffed at all in power, but all of them have eight corpses. Cursors are displayed to show where the Meat Wagons are aiming.

One Meat Wagon always aims directly at the foe. A second one aims at random locations on the stage. You control the third and fourth, the third like you’d expect with the control stick and pressing A to fire. The fourth one has you use the C-stick/motion controls to aim and has you press B to fire. The Final Smash lasts until the two cpu controlled wagons fire all eight of their corpses (Yours have infinite ammo, so fire away). This is unlikely to do much damage to the foe, but the real fun starts once the final smash is over and the stage is absolutely covered in corpses.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZmjvcbcbikhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZmjvcbcbikhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZmjvcbcbik

While getting a Graveyard up instantly is perfectly fine, you’ll want to hold off on raising your Zombies until you need some Mana. The Zombies are extremely incompetent – you don’t want to be protecting them any longer then necessary, so just leave them as corpses then just animate them and turn one into Mana the moment you raise him from the dead. Unfortunately, the fact you have to raise them all at once means you’ll have to protect the other 4 Zombies. . .

And seeing how you can’t do much of anything with the Zombies gone, you have to go out of your way to get the foe to attack you instead of them. Do whatever it takes to become the center of attention and lure them over to you with moves like nair and fair. Keep your Mana Shield down until you get in range of the KO percentage of the foe to further encourage them to attack you unless you’re trying to use nair. Even then, taking the Mana Shield down to bait them is a possibility, seeing you can put it back up when they come over to you with little problem. If you can’t bait the foe to you but still don’t feel like approaching, take the time the foe’s given you to summon a Meat Wagon.

If the foe is particularly stubborn and continues to ignore you to attack the Zombies, you can pressure them. Use uair to force the foe to stand in place as you go to approach them, then pressure them by putting Frost Armor on a Zombie they’re attacking then pelt them with a barrage of bairs. If you go with this approach, your Zombies may be able to actually help you as you trap the foe in-between them and your jab or let them dog pile on the foe after you grab them. Seeing you’re up close and personal with your Zombies here, it’s possible to even save them with a floating Dash Attack. Your usmash is capable of turning moves even like fsmash and dair into good moves for pressuring.

When it comes time for the KO, you can either use Frost Nova, gimp, or an Abomination. Frost Nova is the best option, but it’s mana cost is pretty steep, especially if you use usmash to speed it up. Gimping is generally the safest option, but only for you, as you want to do everything in your power to keep the foe on-stage so your Zombies don’t pursue them to their deaths. This in particular is where your bthrow proves useful to stop the Zombies’ relentless pursuit of the foe. Once you’re left alone with the foe, floating jabs, dash attacks, and dtilts all work just fine to get the job done.

Abominations require some more invesetment to make use of that properly and can be difficult to utilize due to their slowness, but if the Zombies are proving troublesome to babysit the Abomination can look pretty appealing. Turn 3 Zombies into an Abomination, then just try to keep up one Zombie at all times for Dark Ritual. Once you intend to actually make use of the Abomination, you can let him try to go at it himself by using your usmash on him, though this means you –have- to let him eat your corpses if you expect him to survive. If you don’t want that, use it on yourself and try to go for a grab.

In a nutshell, Kel’Thuzad is somewhat of an offensive summons character. He doesn’t want to hide behind his summons – he couldn’t if he wanted to. He wants to tank hits foes send at him with his Mana Shield while never giving them a chance to attack his summons, or rather, his Mana sacrifices.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCx6NiXe1P8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCx6NiXe1P8http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCx6NiXe1P8

Vs. King Dedede – 45/55, Dedede’s favor


Despite Kel’Thuzad’s weight, his traction and size enable him to be chain grabbed. Dedede in particular doesn’t give a damn about Kel’Thuzad’s mana shield seeing he can just grab him through it anyway, meaning your usual strategy of throwing yourself at the foe might not necessarily be the best idea here. . .But your Zombies prove much more useful here as they interrupt Dedede’s chain grabs on you. Granted, Dedede can still probably get a good bthrow or fthrow off before the Zombies get to him, so Dedede is still capable of damage racking you decently and can –eventually- KO you with fthrow without ever attacking your Zombies. Granted, this does make him insanely predictable. . .

But it’s not like he has trouble killing off your Zombies anyway, seeing with all those multiple jumps of his it’s very easy for him to hover off-stage to lure the Zombies to their doom. Getting a bthrow off should definitely be high priority for Kel’Thuzad, though aside from that he’ll mainly want to fight in the air out of Dedede’s grab range so his Mana Shield can actually be useful. While Kel’Thuzad can counter most of Dedede’s hard tactics to shut him down, if Kel’Thuzad messes up Dedede can potentially screw him over pretty bad. Still, this is rare, leading to a fairly even match-up.


Vs. The Count – 55/45, Kel’Thuzad’s favor


Almost the Count’s entire moveset is grabs and that’s really all he needs to land, leaving Kel’Thuzad’s Mana Shield to be nearly entirely useless. This means Kel’Thuzad will want to use the shield to block actual damage, since that’s all the shield really can block against the Count and with minimal damage Kel’Thuzad can easily escape the Count’s grabs. While the Count will be getting in endless grabs, he’ll need them all due to Kel’Thuzad’s damage staying low and how Zombies keep interrupting his pummeling. The Zombies aren’t –that- huge of a problem as they’ll just mindlessly advance into Zondark if he’s using his Side Special swinging his axe around, easily allowing him to defend the Count from one side, though it’s inevitable they’ll botch one or two of his grabs.

Kel’Thuzad can attempt to gimp Zondark in order to easily finish off the Count himself, though. What makes Kel’Thuzad good at this is that his Zombies can interrupt the Count from saving Zondark with fsmash, leaving Zondark to be a sitting duck for Kel’Thuzad’s floating ground moves. The Count can still combat this by retreating a bit so that the Zombies go off-stage after Zondark rather then at him, and while it’ll be difficult to still save Zondark this will also leave Kel’Thuzad with no Zombies, so it’s a decent (Though not ideal) trade off for the Count.


Vs. Fat Bastard – 50/50


Fat Bastard is yet another grab centric character, though Kel’Thuzad’s Mana Shield blocks something more crucial then the former two grab-centric characters - Fat Bastard’s stunners. Without his stunners, Fat Bastard’s grab is significantly harder to land and a good deal more predictable. This means he might try to just sit in place and buff himself, which you’re more then capable of stopping. Hell, you can just have your Zombies do it while you summon a Meat Wagon if you don’t feel like it. Granted, Fat Bastard’s grab isn’t that bad and he can KO you at ridiculously low percentages once he does grab you, especially with your pitiful weight taken into account.

Vs. Morton – 35/65, Morton’s favor


Morton’s dthrow is an absolute terror here. Many of your bread and butter inputs are aerials and your standards are very limited in use without your float. Furthermore, getting a grab to get the armbands off with Kel’Thuzad is extremely difficult, and every time he whiffs it he’ll be very punishable seeing he can’t just float away during the end lag. Seeing how severely this limits Kel’Thuzad, he’ll actually want to use his Zombies in a more traditional manner to occupy Morton so he has enough time to get the armbands off without grabbing Morton. You can just not get grabbed in the first place, but that’s difficult to do with Kel’Thuzad when your Mana Shield is basically asking to get grabbed.

Once you finally gets the armbands off, things become much more doable in this match-up. Kel’Thuzad laughs as he floats over Morton’s earthshaking moves, and should Morton cower away behind his pillars Kel’Thuzad can still hit him with an fsmash or take the time to summon a Meat Wagon. Unfortunately, this isn’t taking into account that your Zombies will be heavily damaged from having tanked for you against Morton, and you need a lot more damage then he does in order to KO. You won’t have enough mana/Zombies left to squander on a Mana Shield, though Morton’s only real KO option is Fsmash seeing you can just interrupt him as he charges up his Side Special with your own Fsmash. . .If you have the Mana.


Vs. Super Macho Man – 60/40, Kel’Thuzad’s favor


Macho Man struggles to break Kel’Thuzad’s regular shield due to him having so little reason to use it – his Mana Shield is superior. Kel’Thuzad will want to play somewhat conservatively against Macho Man so he can always keep his Mana Shield up to shut out most of what makes up his game. His grab isn’t anything to worry about either if he has his shades off, seeing he can only perform one weak throw. With them on his grab-game is acceptable, meaning you may want to target his shades specifically to render yourself essentially totally invincible.

It’s not all terrible news for Macho Man, as he still does pretty well at shredding through the Zombies with some of his more powerful attacks and has good moves for damaging them all at once with moves like utilt. This means Kel’Thuzad can’t play as conservatively as he wants and needs to bait Macho Man into attacking him, but seeing Kel’Thuzad’s so untouchable there’s little that can interest Macho Man into attacking. This means Kel’Thuzad’s will want to take advantage of the situation to make a Meat Wagon for some more corpses and to Siphon Mana via fair so that he doesn’t need the Zombies – just make sure you do one of them before they go down, because it’ll be quick.


Vs. Dr. Strangelove – 45/55, Strangelove’s favor


Kel’Thuzad hates the ******** nature of his Zombies here more then ever – they’re all far too likely to set off a chain reaction in their mindless pursuit of Strangelove and set off the Doomsday Device. Not even your Mana Shield can save you from its’ almighty destructive power. Any competent Kel’Thuzad player won’t want to leave the match to chance, thus Zombies are out right off the bat. If Strangelove is proving too difficult to Siphon Mana from with fair, you can summon the 5 Zombies and sacrifice one then immediately pressure Strangelove off stage so the Zombies go kill themselves rather then setting off bombs, though this is far from foolproof.

Kel’Thuzad –can- fight Strangelove very competently without his Zombies as he floats over all of Strangelove’s traps and such with ease. If anything, actual fighting is blatantly in Kel’Thuzad’s favor as Strangelove has few moves with which to resist the pressure. The catch is Kel’Thuzad –will- inevitably run out of mana eventually, and Strangelove will see fair coming a mile away. If Strangelove survives long enough for Kel’Thuzad to be entirely out of Mana, he’s obviously won the stock as Kel’Thuzad has virtually no inputs left. While this is somewhat difficult for Strangelove, if he does win the stock he can just go use his dair on the Doomsday Device to further cement his lead, meaning the rewards for him when he does win are much higher.


Vs. Subaru – 65/35, Kel’Thuzad’s favor


While tracking down Subaru can be annoying when she’s moving so goddamn fast, your uair and fsmash are capable of hitting her regardless of how fast she goes. Uair will force her to stop all her momentum in order in avoid the attack at gears one and two, though at gear excellion if she keeps going she’ll get be out of the Frost Carrousel by the time it appears. Fsmash can stop her even at max speed, though pulling it off will be difficult seeing she’s coming at you at you so fast, most probably ready to clash into you with divine buster. Quite climatic, yes?

As for the Zombies, she can’t really stay in one place long enough to kill them off with brute force, thus she’ll just shred straight past them for some damage on them then head for you. If she really wants to get rid of them, she can lure them off-stage as she casually does endless loop-de-loops off stage with Wing Road, though this again makes her very vulnerable to Kel’Thuzad’s fsmash and uair, and your bthrow can eliminate the problem entirely (Granted, pulling it off is difficult). Subaru has trouble building up much momentum here while Kel’Thuzad is still playing at the peak of his game. Certainly one of his better match-ups.
And yes, fsmash can kill her if she just cowers up out of Kel’Thuzad’s reach. No gay stalling for you, you little whore.

Vs. Clay – 40/60, Clay’s favor


Clay proves to be very resistant to being gimped thanks to the grab hitboxes on his Up Special and Fair going through Kel’Thuzad’s Mana Shield and turning the tables on him. While Up Special doesn’t directly kill Clay himself, it sends him into helpless after use so he’ll still go down too, so this ultimately isn’t that much to worry about unless Clay gets ahead in the stock count. What makes Clay more a force to be reckoned with is his ability to shred through Zombies – fsmash is all too ideal. It’s like it’s built to kill them, considering Zombies can and will eat the steak to power it up, and at double power it kills them in one freaking hit.

Clay’s boulders, one of the cornerstones of his game, prove largely useless here though as they actually help Kel’Thuzad. How? The Zombies are too stupid to jump over them to get to Clay, meaning they won’t mindlessly pursue him. All the better if you get the Zombies get trapped between two boulders to put them in a little play pen, though then Clay can use his dsmash to kill them all pretty quickly if Kel’Thuzad doesn’t pressure him enough. Also be wary of Clay’s Side Special and it’s mass area of effect and power, it shreds through Zombies stupidly fast.

Clay still ultimately struggles to do much of anything to Kel’Thuzad himself beyond turn his attempts at gimping him upside down. Kel’Thuzad won’t approach in-between two boulders for you to use your fthrow/bthrow for damage and can just hit you with fsmash or nair, and assuming the Zombies are outside the two rocks you have nothing to bait him with. He also generally avoids your grounded attacks pretty easy with his float, though sending up a boulder with dsmash can bring him back down.

Overall Clay falls pretty hard to Kel’Thuzad with Zombies, but seeing he can destroy the Zombies so fast it’s not much problem and he tends to take the lead, and if he gets a suicide KO he’s got the match.


Vs. Drifblim – 70/30, Kel’Thuzad’s favor


The most notable thing here is that because Drifblim is constantly in the air, the Zombies will always just be down on the ground only following him horizontally, meaning you don’t have to separate Drifblim and the Zombies. Granted, Drifblim is very capable of going off-stage to lure the Zombies to their doom, but that’s just about all Drifblim can do to competently kill them and bthrow solves the problem just fine, especially seeing it’s very difficult for Drifblim to cannibalize due to having to tether down, and with you constantly pressuring him he’ll struggle with it. Uair in particular is a highlight for Kel’Thuzad, as Drifblim will always fall upwards into the top of the Frost Carrousel if not tethered to the ground and a very precise spot dodge is needed to avoid it properly. While you battle Drifblim in the air the most competent thing he can do is to try to use his various cloud traps and such, though Kel’Thuzad’s floating fsmash, fair, nair, and uair all allow him to stay out of range of the traps while still keeping up the pressure.

Granted, it’s pretty easy to avoid getting grabbed by Kel’Thuzad so Drifblim can lure the Zombies off-stage pretty easy, and from there things become somewhat bearable as Kel’Thuzad actually has a limit to how many of his moves that dominate the air he can use, but you’ll still be in for hell so long as he has mana, and it’s still very difficult to actually get onto the ground to gain access to your KO moves with him relentlessly pressuring you. Even if you do get down, he won’t. He’ll just force you to come back into the air with nair or a floating fsmash.


Arthas and Kel’Thuzad Vs. Mewtwo and Envy – 45/55, Mewtwo and Envy’s favor


Challenge the gods known as Envy and Mewtwo? Are you mad? While Arthas and Kel’Thuzad may not be particularly threatening on their own, when the Lich is at his master’s side they form an unstoppable team. Kel’Thuzad’s summons actually prove to be somewhat useful distractions in the early game while Arthas is still building up his army seeing Kel’Thuzad can make them right off the bat. While this means Kel’Thuzad won’t have them for later, he can still use Dark Ritual on Arthas’ units for Mana, and Arthas can sacrifice Kel’Thuzad units with Death Pact (As well as heal them). Furthermore, Arthas’ Graveyard also produces corpses that Kel’Thuzad can use and Arthas’ Necromancers can also use the corpses from Kel’Thuzad Graveyard/Meat Wagons. Kel’Thuzad’s usmash also proves extremely useful here in how much it speeds up Arthas himself, considering how slow he is on his own.

If Envy and Mewtwo want to resist, they’ll have to take out Arthas first. Kel’Thuzad’s d
amn near untouchable with his Mana Shield and so many units to sacrifice, though Mewtwo and Envy’s many grabs mean hitting him is possible if they really insist. Still, Arthas should be the primary target as when he dies he takes his army with him, which means Kel’Thuzad can’t mindlessly pelt you with everything he’s got without a second thought anymore.

Envy dies pretty quickly to Kel’Thuzad’s nair. Seeing all he needs is damage to go down and Arthas provides Kel’Thuzad with more then enough Mana to have a Mana Shield up while he channels, Envy’s health will go down stupidly quickly. Once Envy’s getting close to death, Kel’Thuzad might even want to use his usmash on him, as seeing Envy’s so d
amn fast anyway it won’t really matter and the 4% per second will finish him. Arthas; however, goes down just as fast from Mewtwo’s gimping. While Arthas has plenty of units to use Death Pact on, his inability to grab the ledge and Mewtwo’s overall broken edgeguarding game makes the kill all too easy. Kel’Thuzad can attempt to save his master with a floating dashing attack and Death Pact prevents it from being too easy, but this is essentially what Mewtwo’s gonna be trying to be doing the whole game, cheap asshole that he is. If Arthas goes, Kel’Thuzad obviously loses to Mewtwo even if Envy’s already dead, because Mewtwo is Mewtwo. The Undead Scourge puts up good resistance and it’s very possible to avoid this scenario, but you can’t defeat the king.


FIENDS​


Just like ATs and pokeballs, Fiends are various characters that appear midmatch to cause havoc. Who says you have to be limited to what Brawl has, for your extras?

Fiends appear as tiny dolls, which will bounce around until eventually coming to a stand-still (they are surprisingly bouncy). When that happens, the fiend itself appears from the doll in a puff of smoke. The fiends do not have any allegiance and will simply attack whoever they can. The dolls can be attacked and launched, and are as heavy as the Soccor ball item. Since the fiends are extremely powerful, most players will team up to launch the doll off-stage, in order to prevent the fiend appearing. Like ATs, only one fiend can be in battle at any one time. Any SSE boss can come out as a fiend, whereupon they will do their (Normal difficulty) thing for 12 seconds.
Below are some of the other fiends that can come out to play;


CRYPT FIEND​

Upon being summoned, Crypt Fiends fire tiny homing projectiles after foes regularly. The projectiles have infinite range and do a meaty 20%, but can’t turn around and are quite slow. In addition, the Crypt Fiend attacks laggily and the projectile only flinches foes.

The Crypt Fiend lasts forever if unattended to, but only has 25 stamina. When it reaches 10 stamina or below, though, it’ll burrow underground, becoming invulnerable (Except for attacks that specifically go underground, like Snake’s dsmash) and heal 1% per second, only coming back up once reaching full health. Considering it instantly drops what it’s doing and burrows and gains invincibility frames, you’ll need an attack that does 11% or more to kill it.

The Crypt Fiend will fire a web at anybody in the air rather then on the ground. This projectile is much larger and travels faster, and the Crypt Fiend doesn’t have nearly as much lag firing it. However; it does zero damage and can’t home. What DOES it do? It drags the foe down to the ground and prevents them from jumping. Characters like Bowser won’t mind, but Wario will find it torture having his feet firmly planted on ground. This lasts 10 seconds.


OBSIDIAN STATUE
Upon being summoned, the Obsidian Statue stands in place. It’s a statue, what makes you think it could move? It has 50 stamina and is relatively large. It repeatedly casts Spirit Touch to gain 10 Mana per second, and can get up a total of 100 Mana if left alone. If you start to attack it, the Obsidan Statue will start using Essence of Blight to heal itself instead of Spirit Touch, restoring 5 stamina per second. The statue will keep healing itself until it has full stamina and if it has full stamina will attempt to max out its’ Mana.

Upon getting down to 10 stamina or maxing out its’ Mana, the Destroyer within the statue will be released. . .


DESTROYER
The Destroyer has 50 stamina and flies about randomly double Ganon’s height above the highest platform on the stage. It attacks with a rather generic, slow projectile that deals 10% and knockback that won't KO any time soon. However, if it has Mana it can use 10 Mana to buff up a shot to be homing, move very quickly, and do 24% with knockback that kills at 100%, and triple the size of the hitbox. It can also devour minions, traps, and what-not to gain 20 Mana.

NECROMANCER
Necromancers patrol the platform they spawn on back and forth, not doing anything to directly hurt foes at first. They have 30 stamina, and if attacked will instantly cast Cripple on the foe, which is impossible to dodge. Cripple cuts the attack and movement speed of foes in half for 20 seconds, so foes will generally try to avoid the Necromancer like the plague, seeing he’s harmless otherwise.

The moment somebody gets KOd, though, the Necromancer will reanimate their corpse as a skeleton. A second respawn platform will come down alongside the KO’d character’s with the Skeleton on it, who will then go about wreaking havoc. The Necromancer will reanimate skeletons every time they get KOd, so the only way to finish them off is to KO the Necromancer. Considering nobody wants to do it seeing they’ll lose their speed, though, you’ll probably drown in a sea of skeletons before long. . .


SKELETON WARRIOR​
Skeleton Warriors have a paltry 15 stamina, though their shield automatically blocks all projectiles from the front. They have a single generic sword swing attack on par with Ike’s ftilt. These fiends are relatively harmless on their own, but they’ll never cease coming back to haunt you until you KO their Necromancer. . .

ASSASSIN​
Upon doing a taunt, the Assassin instantly turns invisible. He can be attacked to be made visible for 3 seconds, though he briefly becomes visible for a single second every 6 seconds. He’ll move around with Zamus’ move speed to get to a secluded area of the stage, then throw his poisoned javelins at victims. If a javelin stabs into a foe from the front, it does nothing, but if it goes into a victim’s back they’ll instantly be KOd. The visibility of the javelins are shared with the Assassin, and considering that the attack/projectile is so slow it’s pretty easy to avoid. Tracking down the Assassin, though, is another problem. . .Assassins have 25 stamina.

FACLESS ONE DEATHBRINGER
This fiend is double Ganondorf’s size, but is surprisingly frail for its’ size, only having 40 stamina. Upon being summoned, he casts a spell to summon an assist trophy and 2 Pokeballs onto the stage. You can use these as normal, but the moment you let out the assist trophy/Pokemon the Faceless one will go over to the character and suck out it’s brain, changing the character’s allegiance to him and healing all of his health. The Faceless One is also perfectly capable of converting minions (Waddle Dees and such) to his side. Without mind controlled slaves the Faceless One is a joke, only capable of doing very laggy (Though somewhat powerful) swings of his club.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
It is illegal for Sakurai to not have Square's permission. Square's permission will take as much effort, possibly more, than any other company's. There's nothing you can do about it.
"and the only restriction is rights". I said it right in my post.


Speak for yourself. Custom Robo is selling hot in Japan. It just isn't doing very well over here due to lack of games.

The part about Square Enix is hilarious, because Geno is OWNED by Square Enix.
First Part:No, it's not. The franchise is doing about the same as Mother. The sales of the more recent games are lower in Japan, but western sales probably make the difference.
Second Part:You mentioned there are better characters for a SQ rep. We don't need one is how I respond. And again, Geno represents only Mario.

*Cough* Bomberman *Cough*

Anyway, you just admitted Geno wasn't popular, since he's third party.
Bomberman isn;t that popular, and certainly not enough to bget into Smash. He is lower end for sure. Given, he is higher then a lot of other third party characters and Nintendo ones I see far to often, but probably not enough to get noticed. Basically, he doesn't contend with other Nintendo characters.

Not that I hate Bomberman.

Also, I'm counting Geno as first party. So I guess it's confusion. Sorry.

Ike is the ****ing main character. Do you see any Legend of Zelda fanatics stating that Link will be replaced by a Deku shrub?
I also mentioned later in my post that he is a second banana. After Marth, there is no other FE character. He is the main character of his game, but so are 10 or so other characters. Basically, he is important as Peach and Bowser, but like them, he is second banana to Marth, FE's Mario. You could make a game just about Mario and ONLY Mario and their wouldn't be a problem becuase he is the star.

See where I'm going. Ike is the star of his game, but he isn't the main character of the franchise.
You are obviously delusional if you're comparing Sonic's popularity and sucess to that of a character in a RPG for the SNES.
We did talk about this. Sonic is not liked in japan, but Geno is as well as here. Sonic is probably more popular, but Geno is still more so then most characters (again, popularity is request)


And? If Mario RPG was the only Mario game, only Mario would be in, because he's the ****ing main character.
Honestly, don't know where you are going with this. If Mario RPG was popular, then more characters could be added.

Again, it returns to the point that all the big names were added in the 64 version. Geno is not the main character. Neither is Diddy, King Dedede, Meta-Knight, Peach, Bowser, Lucario (heck, even Pikachu by technicality), Mewtwo, Falco, Wolf as well as half the characters people request. Yes, he was only in one game, but so were a lot of characters. Heck, there are a good number of people who want the Hunter, Skull Kid and Midna. This isn't out of the ordinary.

Again, this is why popularity is used. We can argue all day about importance. I know we could argue who is the most important FE character. Why chose Ike? We could use Sigurd. "No, Leaf". "Forget them, Erika". You see, it's not hard. We use Ike because people actually want to use Ike. In the same way they want to use Geno.
Geno is popular with the people who actually know who he is. Ridley is without a doubt the second most requested Smash character after Sonic, yet he didn't get in. Seriously, make a thread now that claims Geno is more popular than Ridley on this forum, I dare you.
Don't think sais that, but I could be wrong. Yes, Ridley is the most popular character, but again, Geno is in the top 3 and in Japan's top 10. It is still nothing to gock at.
EDIT:I said he is "up there". He is in the top three with Krystal and (guess who) Ridley. By context, he is "up there"
:laugh:

You don't know what you're talking about. Those 10 characters were the ones on Sakurai's poll, which was comprised of only a few people.
Ummm, Did I not say different poll.


First of all, PATH OF RADIANCE AND RADIANT DAWN WERE RELEASED IN AMERICA! Now that we've got that down, are you saying that a character from an RPG on the SNES who no one knew about before that poll is more popular than the hero of two of the most famed games on the Gamecube/Wii?
Actually meant game as in FE9. Sorry. Which means my numbers are wrong. FE9 made somewhere between 200k to 300k. FE10 made somewhere between 500k to 700k. Combined, at the highest numbersm with Mother 3, do still not beat MarioRPG's 2.14 million. This does not include The VC version Europe got.

So, yes, more people would know Geno then Ike or Lucas. Ike's Gamecube outing did pretty bad, and his Dojo update predates RD. Basically, a lot of people learned about him though Smash.

And find proof for that sales bull**** at the end.
Path of Radience
Radient Dawn
Mother 3
Super Mario RPG
VC sales

Combined Sales of Paper Mario>>>>> Super Mario RPG sales

I want concrete proof outside of the Japanese poll that more people know about Geno than Paper Mario.
Knowledge isn't the question here. No one wants Paper Mario that badly.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=143172&highlight=SSB4+poll
As that poll shows, more people voted for Geno then Paper Mario. Bowser Jr. is a much better contender for a spot in Smash, but that is neither here nor there.
And if you think Paper Mario is Mario, you've got serious issues. You know, he has the whole paper abilities like rolling up, turning sideways to make himself 2-d, etc. Not to mention the hammer.
OH N0EZ PAPER MARIO EZ NOT MARIO. R U STUPID?

But if you'd pay attention, you'd see why I said this.
Protip: It has to do with "contradicting" and Mario is in Brawl

Pokemon trainer, Ike, Lucas (Who wasn't obscure to us after Ness popularized Earthbound). Also, most of those characters were either appearing in a lot of games or main characters, with only Shiek (Due to being put in to make Zelda unique) as an exception.
Again second bananas. All of them are second bananas.
Ike is a one in a thousand. There are other lords. Marth is the main one. After that, there are a whole lot. There are even better picks for the character. Ike is in due to.....guess
popularity


Pit was popular? Are you high?

Have you noticed how most of the characters are actually important or represent something important? Geno is neither of those.
Yers, he was. He had a lot of old school appeal. Sakurai almost didn't add him becuase of low sales for the Famicon mini but request got him in.

Isn't Geno representing something important. He was a major character in his game. You have said nothing that contradicts it, finds fault, or otherwise proves it wrong. Just becuase you say "Geno isn't important" doesn't make it so.


Importance also stretches to impact and the overall importance in game series (Both of which Mario RPG lacks). Geno is a one-off character from an old game in which he was not the main character. Do you expect to see, say, that goddess from Kid Icarus, because she was a major character in that game? No, because it was an old game that had no sequels and wasn't very important to Nintendo.
This is like talking to a brick wall.
Lucas did nothing for the franchise. Lucario did nothing for the franchise. Impact means nothing.

Again, and not this time pay attention.

There are three pilliars to adding a character: Popularity, moveset potential, and importance
Popularity:The poll Link proves it. The sales page on Mario RPG prove it. I have seen it first hand. He is popular
Moveset:Doll with a gun for a hand and plenty of projectile moves
Importance: He was a major character in Mario RPG. He played a major role in that game and was a constant party member.

What you have failed to do every time is try to denounce his importance. Sadly, that is the basis of your argument. Not once have you said why he is not important enough. There has been less that has gotten into Smash for sure. He is is a well loved character and comes from a well loved game, and now with the VC release, more people know of him.
 

Spire

III
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
15,079
Location
Texas
Thank you guys for proving my point that Nintendo is selling out to the lowest common denominators of gamers and is basically a dying (I argue dead) company.

If this kind of stuff is what SSB4 would get filled with, it'd be better of not being made.
I've tried to avoid using this phrase as much as possible, but QUOTE FOR TRUTH. I will respond heavily to this in response to the quotes below.
hemightbegiant: what the hell are you talking about dude? Nintendo is in no way dead. Although they are now catering more to the casual gamer then their hardcore oldschool fans, but thats to be expected cause thats where the money is at this point in time.
Of course he knows that Nintendo itself isn't dead, but to semi-paraphrase him, "Nintendo's core, character-driven innovation in games is dead." Remember the days when they would just pump out game after game after game, all of entirely new and different concepts, worlds, characters, playstyles, etc, etc? Well they don't do that anymore. Now, this is what Nintendo does:
  • Mario
  • Mario spin-offs (most, if not all are sequels to one or many predecessors)
  • Zelda
  • Mii-based games (Wii Sports, Wii Fit, all that junk)
  • Wario
  • And the occasional Metroid, Starfox, Pikmin or Fire Emblem (occasional meaning one every few years)
Does that sound like a living, growing nexus of life and innovation? HELL NO! In regards to its creativity, they rely on 2nd and 3rd parties very heavily nowadays. Nintendo is "dead".
HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH.

Now that that's out of the way, smash bros is a cash cow. If you took out the characters and replaced them with generic wireframes, nobody would care about it. The only reason people are attracted to it is the characters. Anybody who's a fan of any of the series in Smash virtually automatically ends up buying the game. As if there wern't enough incentive for Nintendo to make the game on it's own accord, it gets people to play more of their games that they didn't know existed due to Smash Bros.

If Brawl only had Wario, Diddy, Dedede, Meta Knight, Snake and Sonic as the only newcomers, we'd all still end up buying it anyway, cause we're that geeky and obsessed with the Nintendo characters. The game isn't that great, it's the characters that are selling it, not the game itself. We are blinded by all our favorite characters duking it out, we will continue to buy the smash games. We are a very dedicated cult following, and even if there aren't any characters, if they released SSB4 with just Ridley, K. Rool, Megaman and a few more characters, we'd all end up buying it anyway.
Anyone else see what's wrong with that bolded above? If you don't, then you probably have the same mindset as MasterWarlord.

As for Smash Bros getting, "people to play more of their games that they didn't know existed." No it doesn't. Not entirely, at least. You think a mode like Masterpieces, and characters like Pit and Ice Climbers really convince people to go spend a good $8 or so to download an old, ****ty game? Honestly, they should have omitted Masterpieces altogether, as the demos make those games look even WORSE. Terrible games (talking about Kid Icarus here). I know you're referring moreso to the playable characters and how they, themselves, sway people to buy their respective games. Well, in some cases, yes, it works, but in others -- it doesn't. A lot of people don't know who Kirby is, and when was the last time a new Kirby game came out? Kirby's Air Ride, a good four, five years ago? Casual gamers think that the only Nintendo games out there are those they see in the store, and casual gamers are the ones who will "discover these NEW characters in Smash Bros and go blow their money on their respective games." Actually, they may not even realize that some characters in SSB even have their own standalone series because:

a) They're too casual and blatantly video game-ignorant to realize it, or
b) There just aren't any representative games out there, and why? BECAUSE NINTENDO'S CORE IS DEAD; AN APPLE WITH NO SEEDS.

Flyinflipino and hemightbegiant are absolutely right about the direction Nintendo and Smash Bros are headed. Each game opens up new possibilities, and in their succeeding title, those possibilities are expanded on, along with new ones introduced. SSB64 introduced the "Nintendo All-Star" concept. Melee took that, and expanded it with adding sidekicks, and villainous reps from the respective games, ALONG with new reps for games not seen in the first title. And lastly, Brawl, took the idea of expanding the character roster by adding more reps, but also tearing open a much-needed hole, the third-party representation. What's going to happen in the next Smash Bros? MUCH MORE third party representation.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
Someone asked me where the Geno 1st party thing came from. It came from when the original poll was done (Sakurai's) where he mentioned Geno and MarioRPG guys are 1st party. Where you can find the info, I don't know.

Smashchu:

it's a great idea, unfortunatly i don't see any way of it working without it being broken in some way.
Well, I think it could work. Tournament wise, probably not but it's not worth anyone's time to try and balance that because there will just be a tier list anyway and "lol ____ is too good and _____ sucks".

Part of the balance would have to be the trade off. Each style switches one attribute for another. Essentially, no character has an amazing advantage, and the reason for choosing the style is becuase it fits your play style (thus, the name)
 

kr3wman

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
4,639
Grooves would be cool, but I doubt they would be that huge of a thing with Nintendo in charge. like, +1 tto dmg but -1 to defense, nothing that change the playstyle.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
koopa cape located at the end of rainbow road
Spire:
i am living proof that smash makes people try out different games. I recently played earthbound (although it was a rom) to see what it was like and to see where ness came from.


also i don't think that nintendo is dead or dying. It is merely going in a different direction (but of course a direction us hard-core gamers do not want it to go in). Nintendo is moving away from the old-school games and are only pumping out one mario/zelda/metroid/star fox/other nintendo mainstay game a year. They are now working more on innovative video game hardware, like the wii mote, wii fit, and that new thing that makes the wii mote more precise (i forgot what its called).
 

Spire

III
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
15,079
Location
Texas
Spire:
i am living proof that smash makes people try out different games. I recently played earthbound (although it was a rom) to see what it was like and to see where ness came from.


also i don't think that nintendo is dead or dying. It is merely going in a different direction (but of course a direction us hard-core gamers do not want it to go in). Nintendo is moving away from the old-school games and are only pumping out one mario/zelda/metroid/star fox/other nintendo mainstay game a year. They are now working more on innovative video game hardware, like the wii mote, wii fit, and that new thing that makes the wii mote more precise (i forgot what its called).
Which is exactly why I pointed out that:
"Nintendo's core, character-driven innovation in games is dead."
and that
NINTENDO'S CORE IS DEAD; AN APPLE WITH NO SEEDS.
Nintendo itself isn't even close to death. They are raking in more money now than [probably] ever before, but that's just it. Money. That's all they really care about anymore. While Miyamoto has stated that his love lies in great, core games, his company does not, and he doesn't call all the shots. He's a supervisor, but the company will do anything they possibly can to ensure that they profit the most, and right now, that's in casually-driven games because core gamers are catered to by Microsoft and Sony, and Nintendo doesn't want to compete with them. Nintendo is trying to be as isolationist as possible, running almost an entirely different video game campaign. While you would probably never see soccer moms, two-year olds, and seniles playing a 360 or PS3, you would surely see them on the Wii, as they are the targets.

Just so you know, I also stated that:
As for Smash Bros getting, "people to play more of their games that they didn't know existed." No it doesn't. Not entirely, at least.
Bolded and upped in size in case you skipped over that. "Not entirely" indicates that the whole advertising bit does not work. If you are living proof that it does work, then I am living proof that it doesn't work, and hence, why it does "not entirely" work. Get it?
 

JPW

Smash Ace
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
903
Location
Sydney, Australia
Sonic was just insanely popular in one region, but Geno is very popular worldwide. He is one of the most requested characters. I don't think it's a problem.
I'm sorry but this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Please tell me you got mixed up with the two.

Sonic isn't just popular in the USA either.

Did you know that Mario and Sonic at the Olympics has been selling like crazy in Australia for the last year. It is still part of the top 10 selling titles in Australia right now..

Nearly everyone who owns a wii in Australia has at least one Sonic game on VC. Now Super Mario RPG was released last week for VC in Australia.... How many people know that title let alone own it... I wonder?

Sonic is recognisable and is known to the gaming world. Much like Mario. He's probably one of the top 5 most recognisable characters in Videogame history.

I've lived in Australia during the megadrive years I loved Sonic. And many of my other mates back then used to love Sonic too. USA weren't the only ones with playground wars of who was better Mario or Sonic you know.

Also Super Mario RPG was only released in Japan... so how can Geno be popular worldwide if only a certain region knew of his existence. Once again Sonic is known everywhere.

People may not want to admit it but they know who Sonic is.
 

NinjaFoxX

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
Messages
6,035
Location
Small hole, looks nice though~
I'm sorry but this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Please tell me you got mixed up with the two.

Sonic isn't just popular in the USA either.

Did you know that Mario and Sonic at the Olympics has been selling like crazy in Australia for the last year. It is still part of the top 10 selling titles in Australia right now..

Nearly everyone who owns a wii in Australia has at least one Sonic game on VC. Now Super Mario RPG was released last week for VC in Australia.... How many people know that title let alone own it... I wonder?

Sonic is recognisable and is known to the gaming world. Much like Mario. He's probably one of the top 5 most recognisable characters in Videogame history.

I've lived in Australia during the megadrive years I loved Sonic. And many of my other mates back then used to love Sonic too. USA weren't the only ones with playground wars of who was better Mario or Sonic you know.

Also Super Mario RPG was only released in Japan... so how can Geno be popular worldwide if only a certain region knew of his existence. Once again Sonic is known everywhere.

People may not want to admit it but they know who Sonic is.
youre forgetting that the origional was released worldwide a long time ago,BUT.....the revamp on the VC is how its now twice as popular as it was back then,even if right now it being sold in one country
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
1,403
Location
koopa cape located at the end of rainbow road
Which is exactly why I pointed out that:
and that
Nintendo itself isn't even close to death. They are raking in more money now than [probably] ever before, but that's just it. Money. That's all they really care about anymore. While Miyamoto has stated that his love lies in great, core games, his company does not, and he doesn't call all the shots. He's a supervisor, but the company will do anything they possibly can to ensure that they profit the most, and right now, that's in casually-driven games because core gamers are catered to by Microsoft and Sony, and Nintendo doesn't want to compete with them. Nintendo is trying to be as isolationist as possible, running almost an entirely different video game campaign. While you would probably never see soccer moms, two-year olds, and seniles playing a 360 or PS3, you would surely see them on the Wii, as they are the targets.

Just so you know, I also stated that:

Bolded and upped in size in case you skipped over that. "Not entirely" indicates that the whole advertising bit does not work. If you are living proof that it does work, then I am living proof that it doesn't work, and hence, why it does "not entirely" work. Get it?
ahh well then, i guess i dont read as good as usual when i stay up into the early morning....
 

Chief Mendez

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
3,161
Location
Somewhere
Spire III said:
They are raking in more money now than [probably] ever before, but that's just it. Money. That's all they really care about anymore.
Nintendo has yet to print money like they did in the NES' Glory Days, which is when they literally had no competition.

However, you're mistaken if you think they at one point did care about something other than money. Nintendo, just like every company, has quite the sordid past. They've done really stupid, outright bad things for the sake of money, and they still do.

I don't want to start an argument about the whole "Casual-Hardcore" thing in this thread (or anywhere else), but that's simply a flawed statement.

Also, @ JPW: Lol, Australia.
 

Spire

III
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
15,079
Location
Texas
I'm sorry but this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Please tell me you got mixed up with the two.

Sonic isn't just popular in the USA either.

Did you know that Mario and Sonic at the Olympics has been selling like crazy in Australia for the last year. It is still part of the top 10 selling titles in Australia right now..

Nearly everyone who owns a wii in Australia has at least one Sonic game on VC. Now Super Mario RPG was released last week for VC in Australia.... How many people know that title let alone own it... I wonder?

Sonic is recognisable and is known to the gaming world. Much like Mario. He's probably one of the top 5 most recognisable characters in Videogame history.

I've lived in Australia during the megadrive years I loved Sonic. And many of my other mates back then used to love Sonic too. USA weren't the only ones with playground wars of who was better Mario or Sonic you know.

Also Super Mario RPG was only released in Japan... so how can Geno be popular worldwide if only a certain region knew of his existence. Once again Sonic is known everywhere.

People may not want to admit it but they know who Sonic is.
Is that because hedgehogs are native to that part of the world? Serious question.

Super Mario RPG was actually released worldwide back in the day, but most people nowadays do not know this game. Sure, there are plenty of fanboys on these boards who claim that everyone knows that game, but that's "everyone" in their little world. Most people on these boards know Geno, but unless there's a revival, or GOING to be some revival of Geno, he wouldn't make the cut. Pit, Ice Climbers, ROB, and G&W are an entirely different story, as they are iconic in Nintendo's history and/or the main characters in their respective games. Until Super Mario RPG is renamed Super Geno RPG, he won't make the cut. And don't try and backlash by saying, "but Luigi and Peach, and Bowser aren't in the titles," **** YOU!

Oh, this wasn't directed to you JPW, just so you know.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom