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- Matchup Rediscussions #1: read last post

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Kataefi

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That's actually wrong. Her Utilt trades with all of his aerials and some of his specials if the hitbox is out and in place according to his location. I've tested this, though not frame perfect. The reason he tends to win is because his moves are so fast and she doesn't have enough time to get the hitbox out. But regardless you only ever want to trade once or twice to kill him.

He does have that transcendal priority, but against Utilt and only this move out of her entire moveset, it trades with the majority of his moveset. I believe there are special properties to this move yet found out and I'm trying to figure it out. It doesn't actually override a move like USmash does, but I believe it's priority is always equal to the priority of a move that hits it.
 

Kataefi

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Okay... I seriously need MrEh to test something for me ^^ It's a grab release to regrab on MK with Zelda. Timing is less than strict, but still there.

I'll pm. It depends on whether MK has enough frames to execute an attack. But the thing about Zelda's grab is that it has range - which means she might be able to grab him out of a tornado, or an attack in general, who knows?
 

-Mars-

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That's actually wrong. Her Utilt trades with all of his aerials and some of his specials if the hitbox is out and in place according to his location. I've tested this, though not frame perfect. The reason he tends to win is because his moves are so fast and she doesn't have enough time to get the hitbox out. But regardless you only ever want to trade once or twice to kill him.

He does have that transcendal priority, but against Utilt and only this move out of her entire moveset, it trades with the majority of his moveset. I believe there are special properties to this move yet found out and I'm trying to figure it out. It doesn't actually override a move like USmash does, but I believe it's priority is always equal to the priority of a move that hits it.
Great find if it's accurate, I would love to see a video of utilt trading with one of Meta's moves.
 

MrEh

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Great find if it's accurate, I would love to see a video of utilt trading with one of Meta's moves.
Sounds a lot like Bowser's Utilt.

Bowser's Utilt beats all of Meta's aerials outright, so it would be funny if Zelda's Utilt had similar properties.
 

Kataefi

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I am 100% of sure of this and I wish I had a capture card to show everything. But if you play a match against MK and start spammming Utilt whilst he's in the air or as he approaches in the air and get the hitbox out in time, you will trade. Try it!

EDIT:: bowser and zelda are actually really similar!
 

Kataefi

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;D Zelda against m2k's MK, hope she did even slightly okay

EDIT:: I'm making a chart that includes both Zelda and Sheik, and how they do against the cast, because they compliment each other really well.
 

DMG

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I agree with you! But she has lingering hitboxes for airdodges - I guarantee Nayru's or nair will be hitting you out of airdodges. And teleport cancelling speeds her up. This isn't a **** matchup for wario. I'd put this at his slight advantage. Brawl is slowly getting worse and worse with stuff like this =(

(Also the stuff below is going sound a little farfetched but I mean it genuinely and not sarcastically or anything and would like to know if the strategies work =) )

If you're going to camp with airdodges - I'm going to condition you so that you airdodge and then I make my move with something like uair, nair, nayru's, or a sweetspot, and from then on it's just a matter of building momentum. It's not all -- 'O look he's running away I'm gonna mindlessly chase him and attack, O look he's airdodged through me I'm going to chase him some more' etc etc etc... She's going to mix it up by delaying some actions and baiting you into airdodging yourself.

Her airspeed isn't bad (You make her sound like DDD! lmao) ^^ Wario's is definitely faster, but her airspeed isn't all that bad. In fact, could she camp against you? (genuine question ^^) Wario has poor range - if she starts SH airdodging all over the place what are you going to do to hit her? You'll be able to reach her of course, but what move would you use to hit her? Considering she can land and immediately cancel that lag into USmash or whatever which outprioritises your moveset, how exactly are you going to hit her when she starts camping against you and playing ultra ultra safe?

What if she starts FWing all over the place with a lead, or gains a lead, hangs on the ledge, and starts Fwing into the ledge over and over. That's not abusing invincibility frames to such a strong extent, she's still using a viable strategy. If she did this Wario actually can't touch her. I could do this until the counter goes down and you wouldn't be able to do anything...

EDIT:: sorry royal I'll repost this in the other thread lol

1. I airdodge to dodge your attack, combined with weaving it in whatever direction I need. It's not just me airdodging in any pattern, at any height or anything like that. I go in the air, jumping around. If you follow me really close, then I airdodge away/past you.

2. I can counter SH Airdodging from her by punishing the landing lag each characters goes under when they land. I can Dair her, Nair her, grab her where she lands, Boost Smash to get her, even throw a bike tire. Zelda can take advantage of this too vs Wario, but this is why I mentioned her running speed. If he moves faster in the air than she can run, then she can't physically catch up to him when he needs to land and punish him for the landing lag. This hurts her quite a bit.

3. She cannot effectively camp Wario, not to the degree he can camp her.

4. For FW into the ledge, we can just grab the edge ourselves. Forces her to go either straight up or at a slight angle towards the stage or she will not recover.

5. For stages, do not pick LM. Bad, bad stage for her. Same for Japes, she will not win there. Best stage would be the most cramped, flat stage you can find without platforms. Platforms are bad for her, big large open areas are bad for her too.
 

Kataefi

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Wait - how high does wario's SH go? I don't think he has enough time to grab the ledge via running if she does a quick jump off > Fw > regrab (because FW speeds up really fast from at that close distance). I really need to test this because if it's true then we can camp you. SHOCK HORROR!!!

Otherwise if you're teetering right at the edge I'll jump and FW passed you and run to grab the other ledge. I believe having a lead and doing this will also make her quite hard to hit also.

It sounds random doesn't it? But this matchup has taken a turn in the wrong direction and it's all about finding gay things to do when one has the lead =O
 

DMG

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Wait - how high does wario's SH go? I don't think he has enough time to grab the ledge via running if she does a quick jump off > Fw > regrab (because FW speeds up really fast from at that close distance). I really need to test this because if it's true then we can camp you. SHOCK HORROR!!!
U can't camp Wario doing this... trust me :)

Otherwise if you're teetering right at the edge I'll jump and FW passed you and run to grab the other ledge. I believe having a lead and doing this will also make her quite hard to hit also.
FW takes awhile to get going, if necessary I can grab a bike tire and throw it onto the stage and it would hit you.

I could Boost Smash and catch you.

Zelda cannot camp Wario anywhere near as hard as he camps her.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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U can't camp Wario doing this... trust me :)



FW takes awhile to get going, if necessary I can grab a bike tire and throw it onto the stage and it would hit you.

I could Boost Smash and catch you.

Zelda cannot camp Wario anywhere near as hard as he camps her.
I disagree. he runs away better, but when zelda camps, she doesn't have to just run away. wario's gonna have to make it through a sparkly wall.

and since when do you just have bike tires lying around? it helps us if you do because our glide tosses are so good.
 

Kataefi

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Actually I disagree. I think she can =O He camps her much much better obviously, but she can still camp him. What's the range on boost smash? I need these for my tests I'm going to do.

FWing constantly on the ledge. If you're teetering or close enough to edgehog, FW passed you. Sounds simple, and wario can counter this. But I don't think his boost has enough range to outrange her teleport.

Okay, so what if she starts mixing FW up - FH diagonally outwards to bait a reaction from you, then FW back on ledge - or SH FW into you (which would outpriortise your moveset) and passed you to regrab the other ledge. The stun should give her enough time to recover before you boost smash.

See what I'm saying? We actually havn't developed ways to camp effectively with Zelda if she gets a lead, but this is a step in the right direction if you guys have discovered camping also. This is not foolproof, but it makes her much less predictable and also much harder to hit. How are you going to kill her when she starts doing this? I doubt bike tires kill.

She's not as gay as Wario, and he is harder to hit no doubt than vice versa, but if she gets the stock lead also, she'll swing the other way and make herself harder to hit.

EDIT:: omg... I think she CAN camp against him. I need to test things......
 

DMG

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Start up lag on FW kills a lot of chances for her to camp with that, I can just hit you before you disappear.

But by all means, don't completely disregard it, for other characters she can get away with a lot more.
 

Kataefi

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You can't punish startup lag from close to the ledge - it will hit you from the top with it's yellow ribbon, and her lag cancels quickly to grab the ledge. From a FH, she can just about get away. Startup won't be that much of a problem, though could be if she's failing to condition and bait wario with them well.

Boost smash won't reach her. You're faster, but if she's camping like a little ***** she is, she'll protect herself with quick smashes here and there to ward you off, then make a run for the ledge.

These smashes will either hit you and you DI away, giving her ample time to run to the ledge, or you'll shield. You're airdodge doesn't go through her FSmash if she times it right. And if you airdodge into her, she may have enough frames to sneak in USmash, nayru's or dsmash to interrupt the next move you pull out.

I'm going to develop this idea of her camp game. I think I'm on to something. And I'm being really serious here.
 

MrEh

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I'm going to respond to what DMG said in the other topic.


There is no way Bowser and Wario get the same matchup number. Even MrEh, who loves Bowser, would admit that Wario has it wayyyy easier in this matchup than Bowser.
This is true.

I flat out love Bowser, but the difference between Wario and Bowser is quite clear; Wario is actually a good character. ^^ He puts up a much larger fight against Zelda then poor Bowser does. Any level of dominance that Zelda hold over Bowser shouldn't be that apparent, or exist at all, against a good Wario. Zelda outspeeds Bowser and forces him to approach in many situations, but that doesn't happen against a good Wario.

I actually think it's 50-50 minimum. But it can go as high as 60-40 in Wario's favor. No higher though.


Oh, and I'll try to get that Bowser summary up soon. ^^
 

Kataefi

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I completely agree with all this. But I'm voting for neutral 50:50 to slight disadvantage 45:55 on Zelda's part because she can camp against him also, albeit not as well, and also put up a defensive wall.

I believe the match comes down to who gets the first stock. Wario can camp and take no damage. Zelda can camp and still dish out damage to Wario whilst having the risk of taking some. It does even out this way. Plus FW camping is proving effective, especially if all he can hit her with potentially is bike tyres, which will stall time and just may not be enough to equal her lead, let alone even kill her =O
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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maybe I haven't played the best warios. but I've played a LOT of warios and some of them are good. they aren't DMG good, but they are at least as good as me as far as playing smash is concerned, and I do not lose to them.... ever.

I can't believe this is wario's advantage. I just can't.
 

Brinzy

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Many Zelda players think that Ness is a tough match-up, and Ness players feel that she's easy to deal with. This fight is actually close to even. He has good aerials to work with, especially his fair, but his shorter range and fairly limited approaches make him easier to deal with. His PK attacks hurt, so try to not get hit by any of them. Once you start capitalizing punishment on those and once you realize that a few of Zelda moves deal with Ness very nicely, things will become much easier for you. Stay grounded and abuse his short-comings.

PK Fire is a lot more potent than we may give it credit for. For one, if it's thrown at Zelda in the air or from a certain distance, Nayru's Love will never hit him back. If you can predict it and you're moving in when he starts the move, feel free to reflect it. The fire pillar can be reflected, but Ness loves to follow-up with dair on Zelda to punish, so just mash your way out of the fire. Besides, you can't reflect it if you're caught in the middle of it because of how much stun Zelda will be in.

PK Thunder is the trickiest thing you have to be mindful of whenever you face Ness with anyone. The tail cannot be reflected back towards Ness - you have to hit the head so he'll lose control of it, but this will be very difficult to perform. You can hit the head with just about any move and it'll disappear, so keep this in mind. Look out for any tricks that Ness may employ. He likes to use the thunder to force you to do something and then kill you by steering the thunder into himself and blasting himself into you. Also watch out when you're recovering, because it can knock you into the stage and send you to death, or it can force you to try to use Farore's Wind again if you messed up once before.

Fortunately for Zelda, she has more than enough to deal with this move. First off, Din's Fire can stop PK Thunder and it can hit Ness. If you're in the air and Ness throws PK Thunder at you, guide Din's right at him. He will never be able to use PSI Magnet in time because he's using PK Thunder. Even if you get hit, you're going to do more to him; Din's will keep traveling. Nayru's can reflect it, but this isn't always needed. Farore's can get you past the thunder if it has been out for a while. You can also warp into Ness to end the move instantly, but be very, very careful because the blasting move has invincibility frames and will override Zelda's attack. For the most part, just fastfall, move away from PK Thunder, and airdodge it. When you're on the ground, it's best to use Din's, but shielding should be enough.

The blasting move is powerful, but once the invincibility runs out (about halfway through), it becomes a much weaker, very low priority move. Shield it and punish accordingly if you want. Fsmash can override it, too. This blast is also used for recovery. You have many options to deal with this. First, you can go off stage and hit him if you know you can make it, but if you're too late, you'll die, so be careful. Second, Din's can be used here to cancel the PK Thunder projectile and kill off Ness, but don't fall for a PSI Magnet ahead of time. Finally, you can just wait on the stage, listen to the move start, and grab the edge to really hamper his recovery.

PK Flash is mainly used for edgeguarding. If Ness knows where you're going to end up, try to stall with Nayru's Love and then warp away from this attack. If you happen to be nearby, Nayru's can reflect it back upon him. He might also use it as an attack when you're above him, and it can do some damage, but this is rare and shouldn't really harm your game.

PSI Magnet might seem to do horrible things to Zelda, but it's not a big worry. Simply avoid using Din's from far away and he won't ever use this. You can use it at closer distances as long as you don't become predictable and you may still hit him quite a few times with it. Ness will try to use this to prevent an off-stage Din's, but just wait for him to move. This is not a big deal and should not be any problem whatsoever. I listed it here because I put the other specials up.

Fair is the main aerial that can really screw up Zelda. It lingers and it protects Ness quite well. You might be wondering how to deal with such a beastly move. Well for one, if you get hit by it, don't fret too much because it's not very damaging. The main thing is to not get hit by anything else after fair. Zelda's jab can stop an approach from this thing. Her fair can also sweetspot Ness through his fair, giving you a very nice trade-off, but it is tricky to perform. Ness players like to retreat with this, but dtilt can reach him most of the time. Finally, Din's can hit Ness out of this, but you have to aim towards his legs to make it work. This move can be difficult to deal with, but after you face it for a while, it becomes less problematic.

Nair is quite dangerous. Ness can use this twice in one short-hop, so don't try to punish the first one. It can KO decently (when it's not decayed badly) and it can be used out of shield. Treat it like fair, except you can override it with your own nair, kick him with something, or hit him with a tilt. Space yourself properly and you can beat this move.

Bair is an annoying aerial, too. If Ness shields your Usmash, except to get hit by this. It kills effectively (again, when it's not decayed badly) and it adds damage to Zelda very quickly. Lightning kicks will trade with this move, but the animation that Ness goes through makes this very difficult to perform, so you're better off waiting a bit and then punishing. Treat it like a stronger, but slower nair.

Dair is your typical meteor, but it also has a late hitbox that sends you horizontally. Usmash and utilt will beat it reliably, so go with those. If you hit the ground, Ness will usually try to do another in order to predict you. Roll away from him.

Bthrow is a powerful killing move, finishing Zelda off at the middle of FD at about 120%. DI up if you're near the edge and sideways if you're not.


Most of his ground attacks aren't highly threatening. Fsmash can really lay the hurt down, but it's laggy and Ness tends to avoid using this. Capitalize on a missed Fsmash. Usmash will be used to get you in the air and to protect Ness from aerial approaches when he's grounded, but this should never be happening. Dsmash is a decent killing move, but otherwise not too deadly. Dash attack can place you in a bad position, but your Fsmash can outrange it... a bit. His tilts are quick but they aren't really deadly. Dtilt might trip you, but at lower damages Ness will try to rack it up on you. You can dtilt him right back if you're not at a higher damage. Ftilt isn't special. Utilt is disjointed, so don't try to beat it out. Mainly, watch out for grabs and SH aerials.


Zelda players should realize that her Jab, which is normally ignored, is a wonderful tool in this fight. It is great for stopping approaches, mainly short-hop approaches... and that's really what Ness is about. Dtilt stops the rest of his approaches for the most part. Ftilt and Fsmash outrange Ness big time on the ground and can be used. The rest of your arsenal is common sense. Edgeguard him aggressively and just keep him from approaching. He can't force you to approach into his comfort zone, so don't willingly do it often.


You can take him to Yoshi's Island if PK Fire is a problem, but this isn't really Zelda's best stage either. Battlefield is nice because his actions become easier to read once he's underneath a platform. It also screws with PK Thunder a little. Green Greens works very nicely against him. It limits his approaches even more, he can't camp you with PK Thunder, and he dies very early. Just don't get f-thrown by the edge.
 

Kataefi

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You STAR! **** yes! I'll put this in the OP tomorrow. I'll reformat it and stuff to make it look like all the other summaries.
 

Bandit

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How are we even against Wario? I've seen all the discussion, but there is no way. We have the range and the priority. I've heard all about the camping stuff which is just Brawl being Brawl, and I refuse to believe a non-projectile character can out camp Zelda when he has to actually get near her to hurt her (and I understand there are more ways to camp then projectile camping). This is as ridiculous as the Sonic players saying they can out camp Zelda (and they did). Quite honestly, I think our community caves in too much when people who play these characters are relentless with having it be in their favor or even so their main doesn't look as bad.

I'm not saying Wario isn't a tough match-up, but his range is small and we have priority over his aerials. He weaves in and out and causes a wall of pain so to speak while being tough to hit. I get that, but the sparkly wall is highly underestimated.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
How are we even against Wario? I've seen all the discussion, but there is no way. We have the range and the priority. I've heard all about the camping stuff which is just Brawl being Brawl, and I refuse to believe a non-projectile character can out camp Zelda when he has to actually get near her to hurt her (and I understand there are more ways to camp then projectile camping). This is as ridiculous as the Sonic players saying they can out camp Zelda (and they did). Quite honestly, I think our community caves in too much when people who play these characters are relentless with having it be in their favor or even so their main doesn't look as bad.

Once he gets near and gets a lead is when the camping begins. He's not gonna do this when he hasn't even hit you lol.

Sonic can camp Zelda, get a stage like RC and she loses easily. You get a more cramped stage though and it's harder for him to run.

The main difference between Wario and Sonic doing this is that Sonic doesn't have the movement advantage in the air that Wario does. Wario can move faster in the air than she can run, that is a significant problem for her if she wants to stop him from camping. If Sonic moved like Wario in the air, I would actually say it would be in his favor too.

I actually want this to be listed as 60:40 or so for Wario because I truly think this, not because I want to make him sound great. I know Wario's weaknesses, I'm not gonna pretend or try to reword stuff to make it seem like Wario does good against Marth or someone who beats him for example. Marth clearly has a good matchup against us, we've accepted that from day 1 lol. However, I do not think Zelda is nearly as good vs Wario as Marth.




I'm not saying Wario isn't a tough match-up, but his range is small and we have priority over his aerials. He weaves in and out and causes a wall of pain so to speak while being tough to hit. I get that, but the sparkly wall is highly underestimated.
Range means nothing if you can't hit him. Range also is useless if you are fighting face to face, speed is more important.
 

Bandit

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So you are suggesting that Wario is a harder match-up for Zelda than Marth? If this is true, the notion of it is completely laughable. Marth zones out Zelda, out ranges her, has more speed, and his disjointed hitboxes make it terribly difficult to get inside. He easily DI's Usmash and can UpB out of Dtilt, so even if we get inside, he can easily get back out.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
So you are suggesting that Wario is a harder match-up for Zelda than Marth? If this is true, the notion of it is completely laughable. Marth zones out Zelda, out ranges her, has more speed, and his disjointed hitboxes make it terribly difficult to get inside. He easily DI's Usmash and can UpB out of Dtilt, so even if we get inside, he can easily get back out.
No, you said I over exaggerate Wario and I was using Marth as an example that I clearly understand that he beats Wario. I wasn't referencing Marth to Zelda, and Indeed Marth is harder for Zelda to handle than Wario. I just meant that I understand, and accept, Wario's tougher matchups.
 

MrEh

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Finally got to writing a Bowser summary. Sorry about the delay.


+ He's Bowser, which means he's fat. He's one of the easiest characters in the game to Lightning Kick because of his size.
+ Bowser has a blind spot below him, which can be exploited if he's in the air.
+ For the most part, you outrange him with your smashes.
+ Din's forces Bowser to approach. Bowser is a pretty defensive character, so forcing his approach is usually a good thing.
+ It's Bowser for God's sake.

- Bowser weighs 50,000 pounds. While he can still be killed by Lightning Kicks, Uairs, and Utilts at fairly low percents, his weight helps him survive almost everything else. Don't expect to kill him easily with your smashes.
- Bowser has grab releases, which can lead into inescapable tilts, aerials, or Klaws. Be wary.
- Bowser's OoS game is just outrageous. Any attack that isn't spaced properly will be punished with an OoS Fortress.
- Zelda is light, and Bowser can kill with 90% of his moveset. Do the math.


Counterpick: Jungle Japes and maybe Final Destination
Ban: Norfair or maybe Battlefield


OVERVIEW

Fighting a competent Bowser can be a pain, especially if you're unfamiliar with the matchup. For the most part, Bowser is a defensive wall. He punishes with incredible ferocity, and his OoS game supplements this. As you probably know, he's big, he's heavy, and he's strong. What most people don't know is that he has surprising range, and that he's not as slow as he's made out to be. When you're fighting a Bowser, it's important that you space well. Victory will probably be determined by the player who spaces better and punishes better.


MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR

THE FORTRESS

Fortress OoS has been used since the Melee days, and it's usefulness is still apparent in Brawl. The Fortress is just a flat out outrageous move when used OoS. It comes out on frame 1 and has invincibility frames from frame 1 to frame 5. The hitbox comes out on frame 6, making it a very potent punishing move. The Fortress is the main reason why you need to space well against Bowser. If you don't, you'll be eating up OoS Fortresses all day. If you don't want to get constantly slammed by Fortresses, space well and play defensive. Getting overly aggro on Bowser is like asking for ****. Don't do it.


GRAB

Bowser doesn't have a deadly Dthrow chaingrab, but he does have something else; grab releases. Grab releases are the reason why you should never allow yourself to be grabbed by Bowser. If you get grabbed, then Bowser can pummel you until you break out of his grab, and then hit you with an attack right afterward. As long as his timing is perfect, the attack is inescapable. A few notable attacks work on Zelda...

Ground release regrab
Ground release overb
Jump Release Fair

What this means is that if you break out of Bowser's grab, he can grab you again or Klaw you for lots of damage. If you jump out, then he can Fair you. Both situations are pretty bad, but jumping out of his grab at least helps you avoid being chaingrabbed. For the most part, Zelda doesn't suffer severely from grab releases. Bowser doesn't have a Dtilt grab release on her, so KO options out of a grab release are limited to the inferior Fair. Plus, his grab range sucks pretty bad, so it's sort of difficult for him to land a grab in the first place. As long as you stay defensive and space well, Bowser should have less opportunities to grab you. Always be careful though. Any mistake you make could lead into you getting grabbed, and that could lead into a 30% grab release. Watch out.


FSMASH

I know this sounds silly, but Bowser's Fsmash is good. Really good. Especially against Zelda. Most of you know that the Fsmash is laggy and seems to be useless. However, the Fsmash has a huge disjointed hitbox, and the range on it is enormous. When Bowser does his Fsmash, he draws his head back very far, and he can actually use his drawback animation to dodge attacks. For example, a perfectly spaced Zelda Fsmash can be dodged and punished with Bowser's Fsmash. To put it simply, Bowser's Fsmash screws with spacing and it's very difficult to punish it if the Bowser is using it correctly. Since you'll most likely be using your Fsmash as your primary form or spacing, Bowser will have plenty of opportunities to use his own Fsmash intelligently against you. Be wary of this, since taking 35% from a smash is not cool.


WHAT CAN ZELDA DO?
First and foremost, get Bowser into the air. Uthrow, Usmash, do whatever the hell it takes to get him into the air. Bowser fails in the air, and it should be one of your priorities getting him up there. Once your get him in the air, keep him there. Do all you can to keep him from reaching the ground. Rack up as much damage as possible.

On the ground, it's important that you space well. If not, you'll be eating up OoS Fortresses. As always, you can use Din's to force Bowser to aproach you, and then defend yourself accordingly. Your Fsmash is useful for spacing, as always. Take careful note to watch out for Bowser's Fsmash though. Remember that it has a big drawback animation, and you can be punished severely if you get predictable with your Fsmashes. Keeping your distance is always a good idea though, otherwise Bowser can get withing Jabbing and Grabbing range, and you don't want that. Play it safe, and punish Bowser when he lags. If you see an opportunity to kick him, do it.

The problem with this matchup is that it's bizarre. It's difficult for me to describe what the matchup is like, so the best way to learn about it is to experience it for yourself. Besides, it's Bowser. You shouldn't have a problem winning. ^^


STAGES

Take Bowser's fat butt to Jungle Japes and Final Destination.


-Jungle Japes: The high ceiling negates Bowser's ability to get vertical KO's. His Fortress and Utilt will hardly kill on this stage, which makes it pretty bad for him without hindering Zelda, since you can still KO him with Lightning Kicks. Also, Bowser gets camped pretty hard on this stage, and the water screws him over if he lands in it.

-Final Destination: Bowser loves platforms, and without them he's very easily juggled. FD allows you to easily get Bowser in the air, and keep him there.


MATCHUP RATIO

60:40 in Zelda's favor.
 

Bandit

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No, you said I over exaggerate Wario and I was using Marth as an example that I clearly understand that he beats Wario. I wasn't referencing Marth to Zelda, and Indeed Marth is harder for Zelda to handle than Wario. I just meant that I understand, and accept, Wario's tougher matchups.
Ok, I really didn't think you had said it that way, but I just couldn't read that sentence like it was meant.

Mr. Eh, fantastic write-up.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I'm not at all sold on Battlefield being a bad zelda stage against bowser. it might not be as good as it is in some other matchups, but it's certainly not bad. In fact, I'd pick it over japes most of the time (japes MURDERS zelda's vert ko ability and the water ***** her recovery)
 

DMG

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I'd stick with Japes too compared to BF, Bowser likes BF too much. Japes it's easier to just sit on the main platform and force him to come to you and take a risk.
 

Bandit

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I'm not at all sold on Battlefield being a bad zelda stage against bowser. it might not be as good as it is in some other matchups, but it's certainly not bad. In fact, I'd pick it over japes most of the time (japes MURDERS zelda's vert ko ability and the water ***** her recovery)
If you can't play on japes, it is because of your own limitations. She does very well on japes by ledge camping the right side or by dins camping the right side. She can spike anyone through the water around 35% or higher, and her dsmash can **** the side walls.

The point is that Bowser is extremely handcuffed by the stage and not that it helps Zelda's game so much. It would be like picking frigate against Mario. Frigate does not necessarily help Zelda so much as it hurts him.
 

Kataefi

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Woah... MrEh you outdid yourself yet again! Fantastic writeup! I'll update now!
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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If you can't play on japes, it is because of your own limitations. She does very well on japes by ledge camping the right side or by dins camping the right side. She can spike anyone through the water around 35% or higher, and her dsmash can **** the side walls.

The point is that Bowser is extremely handcuffed by the stage and not that it helps Zelda's game so much. It would be like picking frigate against Mario. Frigate does not necessarily help Zelda so much as it hurts him.
I CAN agree with that. Japes hurts bowser more than it hurts us, but my point was that I'm not of the mind that battlefield really helps bowser any more than it helps us. either way, I certainly wouldn't call it a CP for bowser mains because it's just too good for zelda, even if you do love it there.

I hate playing the camping game, but, I suppose japes does make it easy for zelda to do that... I just think god help her when she needs to go agressive on japes.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Yeah, unfortunately. If the other character camps well, it is over for her.
that's why I hate japes.

it's not that zelda doesn't have her share of advantages there (she IS very difficult to approach on that stage) but once you take that away from her, japes has pretty much nothing but bad news going for her.

it's a really matchup dependednt stage so unless I KNOW my foe inside and out (like.. that all he can play well is Ike :chuckle:) then I'm probably not taking him to japes
 

MrEh

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-Mars-

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Kataefi I quit playing Fox a little while ago......so you'll have to find someone else to do the summary on him.
 

Kataefi

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Lazy update

I was going to do a mass update because I wanted to wait for the discussion at the samus boards to finish with Zelda, which I suppose it has. It's currently at 60:40. By that time I was hoping for more conclusions on the PT one.

I'll probably update this for the weekend though even if the ratios or aren't decided. I need to speak to LuigiKing
 
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