Bandit
Smash Lord
Not a problem, you should see it by the new year.
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- Matchup Rediscussions #1: read last post
- Thread starter Kataefi
- Start date
- Status
Alright so I did king dedede. I just reread all the pages and stole some things from their own matchup board. I feel very knowledgable ^^
Let me know if there's anything wrong, and if anyone has any Zelda vs King Dedede vids, winning or losing, let me know so I can link them.
Also... royal's doing a great job with the other matchup thread. I reckon he's one is for the discussion and a general understanding of how to approach the matchup, whereas this one's intended to be more in depth? We'll sort something out anyways if they get too alike anyways =p
RedBandit!!! Have you done the rob writeup? There's no rush ^^
Let me know if there's anything wrong, and if anyone has any Zelda vs King Dedede vids, winning or losing, let me know so I can link them.
Also... royal's doing a great job with the other matchup thread. I reckon he's one is for the discussion and a general understanding of how to approach the matchup, whereas this one's intended to be more in depth? We'll sort something out anyways if they get too alike anyways =p
RedBandit!!! Have you done the rob writeup? There's no rush ^^
Bandit
Smash Lord
Heyyy, it'll be coming this week. I had some family come in town for New Year's and they decided to hang out till Sunday, so I didn't have any time.
Bandit
Smash Lord
Zelda vs ROB
OVERVIEW
This match-up is very even with two very different styles of play clashing against one another. Zelda carries the edge with her kill power, but ROB is still dangerous with his damage racking and projectiles. You have to keep a watchful eye on ROB because his kill moves are telegraphed, and it will allow you to avoid or DI the move correctly to live much longer.
MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR
USmash
This is ROB’s most powerful kill move. Fortunately, it is slow and easily seen as he will flip over on his head to shoot his exhaust flame into the air. ROB has a glide toss combo that allows him to throw his gyro and follow with a smash, and it is useful to land this move. Usually, a ROB will throw the move out in a low risk situation, but you need to keep it in the back of your mind when you get to kill range.
Zelda can air dodge the move if she is coming to the ground when she sees the ROB going for it. If the ROB is using his glide toss combo, Naryu’s will interrupt it or you can shield. Remember not to tip your hand before the combo because the ROB can throw the gyro to the ground and punish the cool down of Naryu’s or grab you out of shield.
Bair
This is the move I would consider ROB’s best kill move. His entire body plus the flame is a hit box, and it sends him forward when he uses it. The hit box stays out longer than one might expect and can be used if Zelda is in front or behind him. While this move kills often, it is because it is kept fresh as it does not possess the power of Nair or USmash.
If Zelda is on the ground, USmash will go right through this move. If Zelda is in the air, when ROB lifts his rear to shoot out the flame, she should air dodge. At this point, there is a good bit of separation between her and ROB, and she is underneath him where she is a threat. If you saved a jump, this might be the time to jump back up with an Uair to harass him.
Nair
Originally, this was THE ROB kill move. As their meta-game has progressed, it still remains a kill move, but its ability to be DI’d and incredible amount of kill power that is lost with each use has lowered its threat. ROB will approach in a similar manner to Bair, so he can use either move effectively in that position (him in the air facing away from his target). Nair starts by shooting an exhaust flame out the bottom and doing a front flip. The hit box starts behind and moves forward; this is why a similar approach to Bair is used. Don’t underestimate this move as it will kill; it just won’t do it early.
Zelda can once again Usmash through this aerial as she can with any ROB aerial. Dair is fast in the air and allows you to beat the Nair should you be above the ROB. At worst, she air dodges and falls below ROB.
Fair
ROBs will combo fair to fair to fair etc and juggle opponents off the stage for the kill. It is his quickest aerial, and it can kill outright near edges when completely fresh. DO NOT TRY TO FW OUT OF THIS COMBO!! Zelda needs to DI away when hit and air dodge through the next Fair to have enough time to FW to the ledge. If you try to FW, you will be juggled to your death.
Gyro and Lasers
In this match-up, you will get hit by these projectiles. They are quick and can be a problem to deal with. The gyro dissipates if hit by Dins or if it is shielded. Also, Dtilt can stop it in mid-air if it connects with it. When Naryu’s is used, Zelda takes control of the projectile, but this is not too much of an advantage as ROB’s spot dodge is very good allowing him to spam it while you hold the projectile.
Gyros are better used with ROB still having control of it. After he shoots it out, get behind it and Fsmash it. It will give Zelda an extended hit box, so use this to your advantage. If the gyro gets behind you, ROB will probably go for a grab release that has you falling onto the gyro when you are released. If you Naryu’s while struggling, you will break out of this “trap.”
Lasers are best shielded as they are usually angled in a way that will not hit ROB.
In general, shield is your best friend and Naryu’s should only be used sparingly. If you use Naryu’s on the gyro, you will be lasered during your cool down.
WHAT CAN ZELDA DO?
Usmash is king of this match-up as ROB is a big target that easily gets sucked into it. This should be used to damage rack, and it will force ROB to stay grounded.
If ROB is recovering low, run off and spike him. ROB is one of the hardest characters in the game to successfully complete a spike, but if they are going to hang near the bottom of the level, a surprise sweet spot spike may score you an early kill. Remember, ROB is one of the heavier characters in the game, so if Zelda can score a kill around 100% with a spike, it would save your other moves and get her on top of the match.
Dtilt lock is in effect for this match-up. I would Dtilt to Utilt because, at worst, he is above you where Zelda shines.
If ROB uses his booster (UpB), then he can’t air dodge. Harass him with dins and get some free damage. Remember to mix up where you explode dins as he can Fair through it. Also, this is a good time to go after him with Uair since he can’t dodge it. This is just another reason Zelda shouldn’t be afraid to go after a ROB that is airborne, just know the limits of Zelda when you jump out before you get out too far.
STAGES
Norfair is the first stage I would take a ROB if he does not ban the stage. It is a good stage to allow for Zelda to hide under platforms like at Battlefield, and it gives her several approach options using her powerful aerials. All the different planes are a problem for ROB to deal with, and the stage is too spacious for him to be effective. The lava destroys his camping ability as well.
Brinstar is my second choice. I feel it is Battlefield without the camping, plus the lava will juggle the gyro and keep one of ROB’s tools occupied during the match. The small boundaries play big into Zelda’s game, and the platforms near the ledges allow her to recover safely without need for the ledge. The stage is permeable, so be careful trying to sweet spot any of the ledges.
Battlefield is an option, though I don’t feel it is a counter to ROB as he can abuse the platforms with his USmash, and he will feel comfortable there. It is a great Zelda stage, so if you are stumped for a stage, it is probably a safe fallback.
MATCH-UP RATIO
Zelda 55:45 ROB
VIDEOS
Red Bandit vs JCaesar
Castle Siege
Delfino
Norfair #1
Norfair #2
Mocha vs Sudai
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
OVERVIEW
This match-up is very even with two very different styles of play clashing against one another. Zelda carries the edge with her kill power, but ROB is still dangerous with his damage racking and projectiles. You have to keep a watchful eye on ROB because his kill moves are telegraphed, and it will allow you to avoid or DI the move correctly to live much longer.
MOVES TO WATCH OUT FOR
USmash
This is ROB’s most powerful kill move. Fortunately, it is slow and easily seen as he will flip over on his head to shoot his exhaust flame into the air. ROB has a glide toss combo that allows him to throw his gyro and follow with a smash, and it is useful to land this move. Usually, a ROB will throw the move out in a low risk situation, but you need to keep it in the back of your mind when you get to kill range.
Zelda can air dodge the move if she is coming to the ground when she sees the ROB going for it. If the ROB is using his glide toss combo, Naryu’s will interrupt it or you can shield. Remember not to tip your hand before the combo because the ROB can throw the gyro to the ground and punish the cool down of Naryu’s or grab you out of shield.
Bair
This is the move I would consider ROB’s best kill move. His entire body plus the flame is a hit box, and it sends him forward when he uses it. The hit box stays out longer than one might expect and can be used if Zelda is in front or behind him. While this move kills often, it is because it is kept fresh as it does not possess the power of Nair or USmash.
If Zelda is on the ground, USmash will go right through this move. If Zelda is in the air, when ROB lifts his rear to shoot out the flame, she should air dodge. At this point, there is a good bit of separation between her and ROB, and she is underneath him where she is a threat. If you saved a jump, this might be the time to jump back up with an Uair to harass him.
Nair
Originally, this was THE ROB kill move. As their meta-game has progressed, it still remains a kill move, but its ability to be DI’d and incredible amount of kill power that is lost with each use has lowered its threat. ROB will approach in a similar manner to Bair, so he can use either move effectively in that position (him in the air facing away from his target). Nair starts by shooting an exhaust flame out the bottom and doing a front flip. The hit box starts behind and moves forward; this is why a similar approach to Bair is used. Don’t underestimate this move as it will kill; it just won’t do it early.
Zelda can once again Usmash through this aerial as she can with any ROB aerial. Dair is fast in the air and allows you to beat the Nair should you be above the ROB. At worst, she air dodges and falls below ROB.
Fair
ROBs will combo fair to fair to fair etc and juggle opponents off the stage for the kill. It is his quickest aerial, and it can kill outright near edges when completely fresh. DO NOT TRY TO FW OUT OF THIS COMBO!! Zelda needs to DI away when hit and air dodge through the next Fair to have enough time to FW to the ledge. If you try to FW, you will be juggled to your death.
Gyro and Lasers
In this match-up, you will get hit by these projectiles. They are quick and can be a problem to deal with. The gyro dissipates if hit by Dins or if it is shielded. Also, Dtilt can stop it in mid-air if it connects with it. When Naryu’s is used, Zelda takes control of the projectile, but this is not too much of an advantage as ROB’s spot dodge is very good allowing him to spam it while you hold the projectile.
Gyros are better used with ROB still having control of it. After he shoots it out, get behind it and Fsmash it. It will give Zelda an extended hit box, so use this to your advantage. If the gyro gets behind you, ROB will probably go for a grab release that has you falling onto the gyro when you are released. If you Naryu’s while struggling, you will break out of this “trap.”
Lasers are best shielded as they are usually angled in a way that will not hit ROB.
In general, shield is your best friend and Naryu’s should only be used sparingly. If you use Naryu’s on the gyro, you will be lasered during your cool down.
WHAT CAN ZELDA DO?
Usmash is king of this match-up as ROB is a big target that easily gets sucked into it. This should be used to damage rack, and it will force ROB to stay grounded.
If ROB is recovering low, run off and spike him. ROB is one of the hardest characters in the game to successfully complete a spike, but if they are going to hang near the bottom of the level, a surprise sweet spot spike may score you an early kill. Remember, ROB is one of the heavier characters in the game, so if Zelda can score a kill around 100% with a spike, it would save your other moves and get her on top of the match.
Dtilt lock is in effect for this match-up. I would Dtilt to Utilt because, at worst, he is above you where Zelda shines.
If ROB uses his booster (UpB), then he can’t air dodge. Harass him with dins and get some free damage. Remember to mix up where you explode dins as he can Fair through it. Also, this is a good time to go after him with Uair since he can’t dodge it. This is just another reason Zelda shouldn’t be afraid to go after a ROB that is airborne, just know the limits of Zelda when you jump out before you get out too far.
STAGES
Norfair is the first stage I would take a ROB if he does not ban the stage. It is a good stage to allow for Zelda to hide under platforms like at Battlefield, and it gives her several approach options using her powerful aerials. All the different planes are a problem for ROB to deal with, and the stage is too spacious for him to be effective. The lava destroys his camping ability as well.
Brinstar is my second choice. I feel it is Battlefield without the camping, plus the lava will juggle the gyro and keep one of ROB’s tools occupied during the match. The small boundaries play big into Zelda’s game, and the platforms near the ledges allow her to recover safely without need for the ledge. The stage is permeable, so be careful trying to sweet spot any of the ledges.
Battlefield is an option, though I don’t feel it is a counter to ROB as he can abuse the platforms with his USmash, and he will feel comfortable there. It is a great Zelda stage, so if you are stumped for a stage, it is probably a safe fallback.
MATCH-UP RATIO
Zelda 55:45 ROB
VIDEOS
Red Bandit vs JCaesar
Castle Siege
Delfino
Norfair #1
Norfair #2
Mocha vs Sudai
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Don't forget the one with Wario, I'd write it up for you, but DMG knows more about it then me.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
I'll just take what he has and do it, Do I say it from Wario's Standpoint, or Zelda's Standpoint? Or both?
Bandit
Smash Lord
No problem Kataefi. I just needed a few minutes to write it up. If anything new comes up, I'll bring it up in here.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Wario vs Zelda
Overview
This matchup is very tricky for Zelda, as Wario will be in the air almost the entire match, while Zelda will be on the ground. Wario has amazing DI, and can do some freaky stuff to get past Zelda's defense.
Moves to watch out for.
Uair
This is Wario's primary killing move, killing Zelda around 96% (From the ground) with normal DI. This move has very little landing lag, and Wario can move out of the way of your retaliating aerial if he misses.
For Zelda, Airdodge it, thats the only thing you can really do. Wario can do a FF Uair when your on the ground if your lagging from a move, as it comes out very quick, but most Warios wont risk it due to you being able to grab him if it misses. It has more reach then your Dair and Nair, so you can't do anything but dodge it in the air.
Waft
This move can only be used 4 or 5 times a match, and most Warios will use it at around 1:30 or so into a match for a kill, which can kill Zelda at around 60% in the middle of FD (45% if its a perfect Half waft, even with superb DI.) It comes out in 3 frames, and if fully charged, does 42% damage (But loses knockback) and has Super armor. If you manage to spike Wario, he can use this as a recovery and hit you on the way up, and it has insane knockback if he hits you on the way up.
Zelda should be wary of this 1:30 into the match, as it becomes a very good kill move, your best shielding if you think its going to come, or airdodging, or even waiting for it to be Fully Charged by avoiding Wario altogether, as then it loses its powerful knockback. If you can time it, and its VERY hard to time, Nyaru's can reflect the waft back at Wario, which should kill him if it connects, but the timing is very very hard. Its better to just shield it, as Wario has some bad lag at the apex of the Waft, but its hard to retaliate unless he missed entirely, as he gets his amazing aerial DI when its back.
Fsmash
This is another one of Wario's KO moves, and the kicker is that around frame 7, it gains Super armor, which means he can use it to go through any of your attacks. Its has terrible range though, and some decent ending lag, so if you shield it, you can punish him with a grab.
Since Wario is in the air most of the time, this will be one of the few ground moves he'll use against Zelda, so you don't need to worry about it until kill percentages, if he misses, this move is easily punished, but if you try to use say, Ftilt or Fsmash or Naryus against this, he can go through it to hit you still due to SA frames, so shield and punish.
His Areal speed and CRAZY DI
Wanted to list this here, as Wario has incredibly good Aerial speed, moving faster in the air then Zelda does on the ground, and he can Airdodge through your attacks, as his Airdodge is as broken as Zelda's airdodge. He also has very good DI, and can survive a fresh LK at 60% if hes hit at the edge of FD due to his DI.
Zelda can't do anything about this really.
Bite
Wario will use this move to combo you in the air along with his aerials, and it is a grab move, so ti will trade or beat your moves in general. It does about 12 damage normally, and has a huge hitbox.
This goes through everything but Zelda's Jab, Utilt, and Usmash, so use the Utilt to hit Wario if he tries to do it while your on the ground. Wario has a little ending lag while doing the move if he misses, so try to capitalize on it if you can.
What does Zelda have?
Zelda has an insane Ground Game vs Wario, you out prioritize all his moves on the ground, but he will bait your laggy moves, then punish you with his aerials. the big point of this match with Zelda is to STAY ON THE GROUND you will not beat him in the air with any aerial, and he can juggle you to hell and back in the air. Use Fayor's wind to get back to the stage if you get knocked in the air.
Do not rely on Din's fire in this match, Wario can dodge it like its nothing, and it aids his recovery. About Wario's Recovery... He will use the bike for horizontal distance and its extra jump, if the bike is on the stage, MAKE SURE HE DOESN'T BREAK IT, and you shouldn't break it in that matter as well, a good Wario wont leave it on the stage, but if they do, make sure you keep it so Wario can't use it to recover, as it is the only way to gimp his recovery.
To win this match, or get a KO, if you manage to grab Wario somehow (he is THE HARDEST character to grab in this entire game.) then do a release grab to him, and you can follow up with Usmash, Fsmash, Jab, Utilt, Ftilt, Fair, Nair, Dair, Uair, and Dins. You will msot likely want to follow up with Fair though, as this is the only way you can get a solid LK sweetspot on a good Wario.
Wario will be in the air, so stay on the ground and beat him with your reach and priority, Wario's reach is TERRIBLE, you outrange him on lots of moves, but he can DI close enough to you for it to not matter, but non-the-less, Zelda has the reach on the ground she needs. Not in the air though, NEVER fight Wario in the air, you will lose. STAY ON THE GROUND!
Also, Wario can camp you if hes ahead on stocks or damage to win a match, be wary of this.
Stages
Luigi's Mansion is what you want, It messes up Wario's Airgame, and he will focus lots of his time to breaking the mansion apart to give himself room to work. Don't let him destroy the mansion, and get him with your attacks and Dins, this is one of the few stages where Wario has a hard time with Dins due to being unable to punish you. There is one problem though with LM, you'll have a harder time with the Grab release Fair then other stages.
Halberd is another good stage, He'll have a hard time with the middle platform, but DO NOT EVER EVER attack or even direct an attack against Wario on the ramps, he can pull his bike out and do a wheele, and due to a glitch with Wario's bike on ramps, oneshot you if it hits. (If it doesn't hit, he'll be in the air for a solid 30 seconds or about.) And again, the platform can mess up with the grab release to Fair.
Matchup-Ratio
50:50, Wario destroys Zelda in the air, but Zelda destroys Wario on the ground.
Hope thats good enough, copied Red Bandit's format.
Overview
This matchup is very tricky for Zelda, as Wario will be in the air almost the entire match, while Zelda will be on the ground. Wario has amazing DI, and can do some freaky stuff to get past Zelda's defense.
Moves to watch out for.
Uair
This is Wario's primary killing move, killing Zelda around 96% (From the ground) with normal DI. This move has very little landing lag, and Wario can move out of the way of your retaliating aerial if he misses.
For Zelda, Airdodge it, thats the only thing you can really do. Wario can do a FF Uair when your on the ground if your lagging from a move, as it comes out very quick, but most Warios wont risk it due to you being able to grab him if it misses. It has more reach then your Dair and Nair, so you can't do anything but dodge it in the air.
Waft
This move can only be used 4 or 5 times a match, and most Warios will use it at around 1:30 or so into a match for a kill, which can kill Zelda at around 60% in the middle of FD (45% if its a perfect Half waft, even with superb DI.) It comes out in 3 frames, and if fully charged, does 42% damage (But loses knockback) and has Super armor. If you manage to spike Wario, he can use this as a recovery and hit you on the way up, and it has insane knockback if he hits you on the way up.
Zelda should be wary of this 1:30 into the match, as it becomes a very good kill move, your best shielding if you think its going to come, or airdodging, or even waiting for it to be Fully Charged by avoiding Wario altogether, as then it loses its powerful knockback. If you can time it, and its VERY hard to time, Nyaru's can reflect the waft back at Wario, which should kill him if it connects, but the timing is very very hard. Its better to just shield it, as Wario has some bad lag at the apex of the Waft, but its hard to retaliate unless he missed entirely, as he gets his amazing aerial DI when its back.
Fsmash
This is another one of Wario's KO moves, and the kicker is that around frame 7, it gains Super armor, which means he can use it to go through any of your attacks. Its has terrible range though, and some decent ending lag, so if you shield it, you can punish him with a grab.
Since Wario is in the air most of the time, this will be one of the few ground moves he'll use against Zelda, so you don't need to worry about it until kill percentages, if he misses, this move is easily punished, but if you try to use say, Ftilt or Fsmash or Naryus against this, he can go through it to hit you still due to SA frames, so shield and punish.
His Areal speed and CRAZY DI
Wanted to list this here, as Wario has incredibly good Aerial speed, moving faster in the air then Zelda does on the ground, and he can Airdodge through your attacks, as his Airdodge is as broken as Zelda's airdodge. He also has very good DI, and can survive a fresh LK at 60% if hes hit at the edge of FD due to his DI.
Zelda can't do anything about this really.
Bite
Wario will use this move to combo you in the air along with his aerials, and it is a grab move, so ti will trade or beat your moves in general. It does about 12 damage normally, and has a huge hitbox.
This goes through everything but Zelda's Jab, Utilt, and Usmash, so use the Utilt to hit Wario if he tries to do it while your on the ground. Wario has a little ending lag while doing the move if he misses, so try to capitalize on it if you can.
What does Zelda have?
Zelda has an insane Ground Game vs Wario, you out prioritize all his moves on the ground, but he will bait your laggy moves, then punish you with his aerials. the big point of this match with Zelda is to STAY ON THE GROUND you will not beat him in the air with any aerial, and he can juggle you to hell and back in the air. Use Fayor's wind to get back to the stage if you get knocked in the air.
Do not rely on Din's fire in this match, Wario can dodge it like its nothing, and it aids his recovery. About Wario's Recovery... He will use the bike for horizontal distance and its extra jump, if the bike is on the stage, MAKE SURE HE DOESN'T BREAK IT, and you shouldn't break it in that matter as well, a good Wario wont leave it on the stage, but if they do, make sure you keep it so Wario can't use it to recover, as it is the only way to gimp his recovery.
To win this match, or get a KO, if you manage to grab Wario somehow (he is THE HARDEST character to grab in this entire game.) then do a release grab to him, and you can follow up with Usmash, Fsmash, Jab, Utilt, Ftilt, Fair, Nair, Dair, Uair, and Dins. You will msot likely want to follow up with Fair though, as this is the only way you can get a solid LK sweetspot on a good Wario.
Wario will be in the air, so stay on the ground and beat him with your reach and priority, Wario's reach is TERRIBLE, you outrange him on lots of moves, but he can DI close enough to you for it to not matter, but non-the-less, Zelda has the reach on the ground she needs. Not in the air though, NEVER fight Wario in the air, you will lose. STAY ON THE GROUND!
Also, Wario can camp you if hes ahead on stocks or damage to win a match, be wary of this.
Stages
Luigi's Mansion is what you want, It messes up Wario's Airgame, and he will focus lots of his time to breaking the mansion apart to give himself room to work. Don't let him destroy the mansion, and get him with your attacks and Dins, this is one of the few stages where Wario has a hard time with Dins due to being unable to punish you. There is one problem though with LM, you'll have a harder time with the Grab release Fair then other stages.
Halberd is another good stage, He'll have a hard time with the middle platform, but DO NOT EVER EVER attack or even direct an attack against Wario on the ramps, he can pull his bike out and do a wheele, and due to a glitch with Wario's bike on ramps, oneshot you if it hits. (If it doesn't hit, he'll be in the air for a solid 30 seconds or about.) And again, the platform can mess up with the grab release to Fair.
Matchup-Ratio
50:50, Wario destroys Zelda in the air, but Zelda destroys Wario on the ground.
Hope thats good enough, copied Red Bandit's format.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Oh shoot, I need to do this soon.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
eh... maybe it's bad for wario, but halberd isn't particularly good for us either. The bike consideration is nothing to btoher with, really, but se're better suited to other stages.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Dunno what could be a good stage for Zelda then really, Bike glitch galore on Lylat + Yoshis,...
Ah, Jungle Japes, thats not good for Wario, not at all.
Ah, Jungle Japes, thats not good for Wario, not at all.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
I agree, Taking Wario to Jungle Japes hampers his best KO option (Uair) and perhaps the vertical power of either waft. Don't really see it killing vertically till later damage, horizontally....ummm, maybe 70% will get the job done. Not really sure on that. I kind of fail to see why Japes hurts Wario so much. I would think it would be quite simple if he got caught in the water, but then again, I've only played Wario probably once, so I don't know much lol.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
japes is a bad stage for zelda IF she relies more on vertical KOs than her foe, if her foe can projectile camp her, if her foe can take advantage of the stage's layout and/or if her foe has low trajectory attacks that can send zelda into the water.
Wario can do none of these things, so Zelda can camp on a side platform. Wario might have a lot of aerial mobility, but there's only so much room to maneuver there if he wants to land so he'll have a hell of a time appraoching zelda there. And his uair will get majorly hampered. it's not as good as mansion, but it's our advantage on the stage I think
and zeldas severely hate lylat BTW, we wouldn't take you there anyway... but, once again, not like the bike glitch is as amazing as you seem to suggest. At least I haven't heard anything about it being considered a legitimate technique more than a flashy glitch
Wario can do none of these things, so Zelda can camp on a side platform. Wario might have a lot of aerial mobility, but there's only so much room to maneuver there if he wants to land so he'll have a hell of a time appraoching zelda there. And his uair will get majorly hampered. it's not as good as mansion, but it's our advantage on the stage I think
and zeldas severely hate lylat BTW, we wouldn't take you there anyway... but, once again, not like the bike glitch is as amazing as you seem to suggest. At least I haven't heard anything about it being considered a legitimate technique more than a flashy glitch
K, I can't really set a timeline for when i'll finish it....but i'll try to get it done this weekend.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Hey, uhm, maybe you should use the Tier list template they have over at the yoshi and Bowser forums? That one is pretty organized. As Mmac for one.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
I can't see some of it due to the background blending with so many colors, but thats just me.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Nah, I just normally have a hard time with narrow text and light colors, I can see them, just takes me longer 
.
.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
the setup the fox boards have for their matchup thread is pretty darn good when it comes to understandability. We could always copy it
sniperworm
Smash Ace
I have to agree that the Fox one is very clear and easy to read.
However, I have to admit that I kinda like how in our one it looks like DK is about to punch Kirby in the back of his head...
However, I have to admit that I kinda like how in our one it looks like DK is about to punch Kirby in the back of his head...
Villi
Smash Lord
It's ugly and I hate it!
jk Good stuff. What's so good about the fox board template?
jk Good stuff. What's so good about the fox board template?
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
this new one is fine.
curious colour choices, but good chart. mych better than the last one
curious colour choices, but good chart. mych better than the last one
Bandit
Smash Lord
Kata, I have to be honest, I don't even look at the chart. The summaries are the most important thing here, and they are coming along very well. This is definitely a reference thread that should be bookmarked by all.
(Don't take the first part as negative, I've seen the chart, and I have no qualms with it, and it seems to work well.)
(Don't take the first part as negative, I've seen the chart, and I have no qualms with it, and it seems to work well.)
>.> double post
made some changes - got rid of toon link as everyone's just unsure, made falco go down, ZSS has gone to even for now until I suppose Ninjalink can play Snakeee or something and we all get a general sense of the matchup ^^
What else???? ermmmm.... I've put sonic in as slight advantage because that's what they have over at their boards ^^
And that's it! If there's anything majorly wrong let me know. Marsulus is doing the fox writeup, MrEh's is doing the bowser one, things are shaping up! =O
Also are ICs 65:35 too controversial? I would debate for this ratio to stand actually because she has so much that wrecks them. Their only saving grace for them is to grab her and she's mad hard to grab if she uses non-laggy moves.
made some changes - got rid of toon link as everyone's just unsure, made falco go down, ZSS has gone to even for now until I suppose Ninjalink can play Snakeee or something and we all get a general sense of the matchup ^^
What else???? ermmmm.... I've put sonic in as slight advantage because that's what they have over at their boards ^^
And that's it! If there's anything majorly wrong let me know. Marsulus is doing the fox writeup, MrEh's is doing the bowser one, things are shaping up! =O
Also are ICs 65:35 too controversial? I would debate for this ratio to stand actually because she has so much that wrecks them. Their only saving grace for them is to grab her and she's mad hard to grab if she uses non-laggy moves.
GreyFox86
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I like the chart that you put together. 
Meh, I don't really think Sonic has anything on Zelda at all but whatever they say I guess.
I would recommend changing MK to 35:65, he is a far harder matchup than Snake for her anyways. I don't see what makes him much different from the G&W matchup.......he can pressure your shield just as well, outrange you, kill pretty early.
I want to see what Sonic and NinjaLink say about the matchup though.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I think he meant WE have a slight advanatge on sonic. and it's true.
if it is 65:35 instead of 60:40, then the main reason it's thought of as 60:40 is because EVERYONE plays metaknight and so it's harder to judge what a good one will do since G&W users are, on the whole, better.
anyway. Game and watch is a worse matchup.
he's stronger, you can't get free damage on his recovery with din's, you can't actually use Din's much at all because of the bucket and the fact that most of his attacks cancel; it out (MK's don't), he can land kill moves more easily. I normally only find metaknight punishing me to kill me. game and watch can kill on offense or defense pretty well.
metaknight's got speed on him, but other than that, game and watch outclasses when it comes to tools to fight zelda. I just find MK easier to connect with than game and watch. I think MKs are tough, but not as tough as snake or game and watch, but that could just be my playstyle.
I'm fine whatever matchup rating we chose, but definitely one of those two ratings 65:35 or 60:40. ask ninja for more input.
I love that pit writeup BTW. it's written as if zelda has the advanatge though, since it doesn't tell much that pit has on her
MrEh
Smash Hero
That's because Pit has nothing on her.I love that pit writeup BTW. it's written as if zelda has the advanatge though, since it doesn't tell much that pit has on her
Har har. XD
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
he makes her approach. sad, but that's almost enough.
Trying to get the pits to agree on the match being even was a nightmare, almost as bad as that ness one you guys had a while back when I wasn't on here.
Also... I swear if you play MK defensively then the match isn't too hard. Nayru's/Din's and even jab can stop the tornado approach. He racks up damage fast, but he kills a lot of characters outright by gimping them, and Zelda's a little harder to gimp. Dtilt also works wonders here. And Utilt trades with a lot of his stuff. Seriously, I've come to realise how good Utilt is at finishing people off by trading, except Zelda should get the better end of the trade.
I understand that there are some crazy meta knights out there, but that's them as players, and we have even fewer really good zelda players on their level =O
Also... I swear if you play MK defensively then the match isn't too hard. Nayru's/Din's and even jab can stop the tornado approach. He racks up damage fast, but he kills a lot of characters outright by gimping them, and Zelda's a little harder to gimp. Dtilt also works wonders here. And Utilt trades with a lot of his stuff. Seriously, I've come to realise how good Utilt is at finishing people off by trading, except Zelda should get the better end of the trade.
I understand that there are some crazy meta knights out there, but that's them as players, and we have even fewer really good zelda players on their level =O
Kata, utilt will only "trade" with MK's specials......his sword slashes have transcendal priority as I have found out many times.
Zelda may be hard to outright gimp, but it's fairly easy for MK to mess with your recovery far better than other characters. He can force you to land on the stage every time and punish with a fair or shuttle loop.
Dtilt is a lot better in the G&W matchup. It clanks with his dtilt and iirc a couple of his smashes. Really, I only think G&W has bair on Zelda......his kill moves are more powerful but can be very hard to land if you space well. At least with G&W you have answers for his moveset besides one move.......MK not so much. Sure, we can stop the tornado but so can most of the cast. I'm talking about a MK player that spaces dairs on the top of your shield, juggles you forever, takes advanatge of the invincibility frames on shuttle loop, edgeguards Zelda very well.
But yes Sonic I agree, MK players are in most cases easier to play because they're not that good and we all know the matchup inside and out.
Zelda may be hard to outright gimp, but it's fairly easy for MK to mess with your recovery far better than other characters. He can force you to land on the stage every time and punish with a fair or shuttle loop.
Dtilt is a lot better in the G&W matchup. It clanks with his dtilt and iirc a couple of his smashes. Really, I only think G&W has bair on Zelda......his kill moves are more powerful but can be very hard to land if you space well. At least with G&W you have answers for his moveset besides one move.......MK not so much. Sure, we can stop the tornado but so can most of the cast. I'm talking about a MK player that spaces dairs on the top of your shield, juggles you forever, takes advanatge of the invincibility frames on shuttle loop, edgeguards Zelda very well.
But yes Sonic I agree, MK players are in most cases easier to play because they're not that good and we all know the matchup inside and out.
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