- Matchup Rediscussions #1: read last post

[Kataefi]

I love Frigate. I've been playing a lot there recently, and I think it's my favourite personal CP on my opponent.

I also feel really comfortable on yoshi's and smashville. I don't understand all the fuss about yoshi's, I think it's a really neat stage, and I recover much better on there than I do FD, for example. I'd say FD is one of the worst stages to take a Zelda.

Call me stoooooopid, but I think Lylat was made for Zelda (well, my zelda anyways). Platforms, difficult for other characters to camp successfully, the moving edge doesn't gimp her that much whilst ruins others' recoveries with DSmash. I'm going to train a lot more on lylat because I find it a really great stage (the background is beautiful!)

 

[Bandit]

Lylat has platform canceling as well. I used to think it was terrible, but I no longer go for the ledges when I am recovering anyway unless it is wide open. The middle platform is not reliable to stand beneath, but the 2 side platforms seem to lend itself to USmash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Norfair
Brinstar
Halberd

allhave nonsolid main platforms meaning zeld has a MUCH MUCH harder time sweetspotting the ledge wuth farores... meaning she's more likely to be punished for landing lag. They aren't AWFUL stages for zelda, but those aspects make them inferior to the regular battlefiled which DOESN'T have that negative side effect. If your foe performs equally well on BF and these other 3, BF is the better option. period. however, they aren't much worse than BF, so if the foe performs worse on one of them than on battlefield, it's a viable option.

Frigate

knowing they don't need to ledgehog us on orpheon's one edge means that they can wait for us to land instead and punish lag. Ivysaur Usmash, Lucas Usmash, Ike Fsmash... all become MUCH more viable. Zelda will actually get hit by them if she has to recover onto that platform luckily, it's a small part of the stage and the stage is otherwise not bad. but it's also not any better for zelda than most stages... unless she's going against a tether-user, who it inherently gimps.

Japes

all in all. NOT a good stage for zelda. anyone who can normally outcamp/projectile spam her gets a free license to abuse that here. The ceiling hampers her KO ability and Zelda has a saddeningly difficult time getting out of the water. Sure if it gimps your oponent even harder, like ike, chose it, but otherwise NOT a good decision.


I've beaten MKs on mansion, but I know they can abuse it.

point is, stage choices are matchup specific, but unless Zelda's foes have an inherent disadvantage on another stage, can exploit mansion or BF better than Zelda OR are immune to the stage advantages zelda has on these stages then Zelda is going to want to pick either BF or LM... especially if you are picking blind.

dislike that they are her best stages if you want. but they currently are, and you'd be disadvantaging yourself not to chose them unless there was a matchup specific advantage somewhere else

 

[Kataefi]

Okay my next chart is a very 'artsy' - I'll post it soon.

IT'S UP!!!!

 

[Oh Snap]

In terms of attractiveness...I gotta say this one.

But getting the message across, your first one was more effective. I like the little banners ^_^

 

[Bandit]

Norfair has 3 platforms which to choose from and they are not hard to sweet spot. I know because this is one of my most used CP's. I'll be putting up 2 videos of me on Norfair this weekend vs JCaesar (ROB). Norfair allows for Zelda to use her air game to the fullest and still be able to get back. The bottom platform is the only one that occasionally has not sweet spotted correctly. Otherwise, vertical kills come quick.

Brinstar's walls don't allow for much recovery and there is a ledge, stage, and 2 platforms to go for when you FW off the ledge. I have routinely been under the middle of the stage and FW'ed to the ledge. It is not that hard; you just have to practice.

Halberd I told you Sheik has to be used when on the platform. Zelda only does well when it lands.

Frigate has the moving platform that allows for an option when FW back from the right side. If they are charging their upsmash, then you aim for them and hit them. If you miss, you get punished. This is not much different from normal recovery since they will hog the ledge, hop up, and punish if we recover incorrectly.

Japes works when it is needed. I have not had much problem getting out of the water with Zelda, dair is good, and dsmash is king on this stage. This stage is purely situational.

I used to complain all the time about Zelda's recovery holding her back, but I've just accepted it. There is not that many times you will be sent at an angle from which you are at a very poor angle to recover. As long as you are able to keep yourself above the height of the ledge, then you are fine. Dismissing these stages just because your recovery is not the greatest is foolish especially when places like Norfair and Brinstar have lava to save you should you screw up your recovery.

One thing you are forgetting about all this is if you win Battlefield in the first match, I doubt your opponent will let you go back there. Plus, it is a neutral that does not hamper most of the cast, but it gives us USmash platforms. Also, it has a smaller ceiling than the other neutrals, but there are other stages with even lower ceilings.

And if you have beaten MK's on Luigi's, then they didn't play the Plank way. Lower floor. Tornado spam. Good luck.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

And if you have beaten MK's on Luigi's, then they didn't play the Plank way. Lower floor. Tornado spam. Good luck.

he did do that. I just used sheik needles and teched out of tornader. it went well. obviously he wasn't as good as plank. but that technique is NOT an insta win.

 

[Bandit]

Regardless, other stages besides Battlefield and Luigi's should be considered when looking for a CP.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Regardless, other stages besides Battlefield and Luigi's should be considered when looking for a CP.

they should be. but don't get surprised that BF and LM will get picked the most often, because they are her best

 

[Kataefi]

New chart is up! Took oh snap's advice and made it easier to read

 

[goodkid]

And if you have beaten MK's on Luigi's, then they didn't play the Plank way. Lower floor. Tornado spam. Good luck.

Can't wait for the Caesar vids! East Coast is ****. Yeah the MK seems correct. Zelda can kill him really easily, but your going to have to think a lot more to win this fight. DI out of his Fair/Bair, & up on d-smash & f-smash.

 

[lil cj]

Great match up chart!
Zelda is a beast....but if she does good against all those characters she should be high tier IMO

 

[Kataefi]

Just out of curiosity... what do people think of Lucario and Donkey Kong?

I've read up on the luc boards about the matchup, but I don't agree 60:40 on their part... maybe something like 55:45 (I was actually thinking her slight advantage also...). It's just that Lucario is so easily edgeguarded after a DSmash and aurasphere is slow enough to nayru's on reaction. And we've discovered her utilt > his dair which could kill him earlier than he's comfortable with...

hhhhmmm

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Just out of curiosity... what do people think of Lucario and Donkey Kong?

I've read up on the luc boards about the matchup, but I don't agree 60:40 on their part... maybe something like 55:45 (I was actually thinking her slight advantage also...). It's just that Lucario is so easily edgeguarded after a DSmash and aurasphere is slow enough to nayru's on reaction. And we've discovered her utilt > his dair which could kill him earlier than he's comfortable with...

hhhhmmm

I've never had a problem against him with zelda, but we'll wait until he's the next character discussion

 

[-Mars-]

Seriously? I think Lucario is one of her harder matchups, but I agree we'll save that for later. I agreed with the Lucario boards when they decided on a final ratio a little while ago.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I think you should add recommended stages for each character under the "SUMMARY" section.

Then this topic would pretty much be the new/improved version of the sticky.

Just out of curiosity... what do people think of Lucario and Donkey Kong?

Anyway, if you're having trouble with these two characters specifically, I think it's an issue with your playstyle.

DK's moves are somewhat quick, and Lucario has CRAZY range. His moves are almost variations of Zelda's in a way.

Lucario:

Well, first off if you're in a spammy mood, your only projectile KILLS his only projectile, so that's the long range out of the way. Once you get aggressive though, things get hard. He outranges you with many (but not all) of his moves. It's all about timing and playing defensive. His approach sucks almost as much as yours! Yay!

You can either force an approach or just kinda taunt him (not literally) and wait for a strike. It's all about defense in this match up. Once you see a D-smash coming, a d-air spamming or a neutralB charging, go all out on his *** imo. (if you're close by).

DK is much the same, but you have two pluses here.

He has no projectiles, and he's big. Don't make the mistake of thinking he's a push over or you'll get *****. Smash attacks and DownB can be troublesome.

I think Sheik/Zelda works pretty well here if you know both of them. In my experience he's a sucker for spikes and dash attacks. If you can get him off the ledge, you can sweetspot spike his head while he recovers.

Gotta run, but again, this is just personal experience. Take what you will, and if you think im totally wrong, let me know.

 

[Kataefi]

Sounds like a plan!

 

[lil cj]

Lucario and DK are easy
Peach is the one thats hard to beat

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda vs. Pika's best counterpick is luigi's mansion. it's not even close. Zelda should go no less than 70:30 there.

 

[Kataefi]

How are you guys finding the matchup summaries? If there's anything I should add or take away, let me know.

There are still some matches that are debatable - ROB, Sonic and TLink spring to mind. I've just read around on their boards and the such and formed the score from there, but it can always change.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I already made the comment about pika's stage: Luigi's mansion. NOT battlefield (bttelfield's a good 2nd choice, but mansion is just amazing against pika)

and against ICs, I might mention the effectiveness of zelda's aerial game. especially at obliterating nana.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Great matchup chart Kataefi! I personally find one showing characters listed based on their advantages/disadvantages slightly easier to read, but that one is great too. The pictures are really cool!

 

[goodkid]

Lucario & DK match-ups are no less than 50:50. Also does everyone think its possible for a Zelda to win a major tourney on the East Coast/West/South? The peach boards have been discussing this, & this is a major issue we need to discuss. There are few Zelda users, so we need to advertise Zelda up on AiB & here. Everytime I play someone in a friendly on aib, I encourage them to try Peach, & I should also encourage them to try Zelda, so I am guilty of not expanding the Zelda population

 

[Kataefi]

Thanks! I think the chart is mainly there just for the sake of being there, because all the other boards have one, but it's the summaries at the bottom people will pay attention to more. I'll work a little harder on those to make them as accurate as possible

EDIT: I think she can win, but she needs popularity in order to achieve this. It's how any character will win really. MKs are popular, so there's more chance of him winning a tourney and gaining points.

If there were as many Zeldas as there were MKs, and based on the current metagame, I reckon a brilliant Zelda with amazing spacing will come along and place top 10 easily amongst those high tiers, and possibly even go for the win. It's not like she's destroyed by the tier whores - she goes great against D3, Falco, possibly ROB. Game and Watch and Olimar are her only worries in any tournament I believe.

Look at DarkMusician, Ninjalink videos - it's possible for her to take on MK and snake and others. I watched Dark vs PC chris, and that set was intense stuff. We need more players like them to rep Zelda up. I'm not saying these are the only Zeldas, I'm sure the majority of Zelda players at a tournament are on their level, it's just there aren't enough of her going around.

 

[goodkid]

Thanks! I think the chart is mainly there just for the sake of being there, because all the other boards have one, but it's the summaries at the bottom people will pay attention to more. I'll work a little harder on those to make them as accurate as possible

EDIT: I think she can win, but she needs popularity in order to achieve this. It's how any character will win really. MKs are popular, so there's more chance of him winning a tourney and gaining points.

If there were as many Zeldas as there were MKs, and based on the current metagame, I reckon a brilliant Zelda with amazing spacing will come along and place top 10 easily amongst those high tiers, and possibly even go for the win. It's not like she's destroyed by the tier whores - she goes great against D3, Falco, possibly ROB. Game and Watch and Olimar are her only worries in any tournament I believe.

Look at DarkMusician, Ninjalink videos - it's possible for her to take on MK and snake and others. I watched Dark vs PC chris, and that set was intense stuff. We need more players like them to rep Zelda up. I'm not saying these are the only Zeldas, I'm sure the majority of Zelda players at a tournament are on their level, it's just there aren't enough of her going around.

I know she can place top 10, but I mean win! w/ players like M2K, Azen, & DSF @ the tourney. Also I don't think NinjaLink plays Zelda in tourneys. All we have is DM who is like the only Zelda that goes to tournaments now days.

 

[GodAtHand]

>.<, I'm going to one this weekend......

wish me luck!

Ill show you!!!!!! (pumped)

 

[-Mars-]

To win with Zelda at those really high levels of play your going to be forced to have perfect spacing and have the will and patience to grind it out in one of those camp fests.........especially for those poor Zeldas on the EC. Those guys camp the **** out of you.

 

[Bandit]

NinjaLink does use her in tourneys, but he has not recently as he is currently favoring other characters. He's said before he kinda drifts from character to character, but he started as a Zelda, so he keeps her sharp and pulls out sometimes.

DM, GreyFox86, sniperworm... they all had top 10's recently.

As far as the East Coast, Riot covers the North, I am MD/VA, and ScaryLB59 covers the south. Looking at the list of tournament Zeldas, that is it for the East Coast.

As much as I believe Zelda can stand on her own and be a great character in Brawl, for her to win a tournament she needs to have an equally well-played Sheik. Sheik does well at approaching campers and helps at some of Zelda's poor match-ups (Olimar for example). Then, you would never, in theory, need a second because you can just switch when needed.

I don't like Sheik anywhere near as much as I like Zelda, but I am spending my month off from tourneys working on her to get her tourney capable. My Zelda will only go so far, and if I waste time on learning people like Marth to cover a bad match-up (vs G&W) then it is only slowing myself down. Zelda by herself will go a long ways, but Sheik will put her over the top.

...

You have no idea how hard it was to type that last sentence...

 

[DarkThundah]

>.<, I'm going to one this weekend......

wish me luck!

Ill show you!!!!!! (pumped)

good luck bro, **** some...

 

[Alopex]

OK, I need some help and clarification against Falco here.

My friends and I were doing some Falco chain grab testing and we decided to test Zelda, since Falco is not supposed to be able to chaingrab her.

Sure enough, if Falco tried the dashing chaingrab, Zelda was able to get out of it be jumping.

But when we tried the walking chaingrab, I was completely unable to escape the chaingrab.


The match-up says "he has no chaingrab on her", so I assume you guys tested both Falco's dashing CG and his walking CG. So I need to know how you guys are escaping the walking CG.

I've tried DIing away, DIing up, using Nayru's, air dodging, LK'ing, and mashing the jump button. All to no avail.

So what am I missing? Should I be DIing towards him? Down? I feel like the DI is the answer here.

So, in short, how do I escape Falco's walking chaingrab?

 

[Kataefi]

He has a pseudo-chaingrab on Zelda, but this is not consistent as there is always a tiny frame window to escape out of his next grab, thus Zelda can easily escape. You must be missing frame window or something, either that or it's your DI, and I normally DI away from a falco attempting to chaingrab me...

Walking chaingrab? If she escapes even with him running towards her, I don't see how he'll catch her in time by walking... I'm assuming this is from dthrow, right?

 

[Alopex]

He has a pseudo-chaingrab on Zelda, but this is not consistent as there is always a tiny frame window to escape out of his next grab, thus Zelda can easily escape. You must be missing frame window or something, either that or it's your DI, and I normally DI away from a falco attempting to chaingrab me...

Walking chaingrab? If she escapes even with him running towards her, I don't see how he'll catch her in time by walking... I'm assuming this is from dthrow, right?

Yes, that's correct, Dthrow.
All I know is that when the Falco walked towards Zelda and regrabbed, it worked every time.

I think what happens is that the walking grab is executed earlier, because it's a standing grab.

The standing grab comes out at frame 15, whereas the dashing grab comes out at frame 19.

So Falco would regrab Zelda sooner using the standing grab, thus the walking CG. Because Falco can only use the standing grab if he's walking or standing.

You could do a dashing shield grab in order to use the standing grab, but I think the extra inputs cause the overall frame amount to be larger than just walking slightly forward and using the standing grab.

So I believe that with the standing grab, using the walking CG, Falco is able to regrab Zelda before she can escape. Or at least that's what I've experienced after many continuous trials.

 

[goodkid]

Yeah, I think there is a slight chaingrab on Zelda, but only about 2-3 grabs, & it won't be enough to get her to the ledge for a spike.

We need a tourney results thread, so we can see how Zelda's doing.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I must admit. I'm a little surprised that batlefield, not luigi's mansion, is listed as the best stage for zelda against falco. those pillars at mansion KILL his laser camping game

 

[Kataefi]

It will probably have to be within certain percentages as well for the chaingrab to work effectively, but I've never come across this.

Yeah the counterpick for falco is wrong - I'll change it now.

Let me know if you see anymore mistakes. I'm just reading through the matchups, summarising them and listing each character's points in the match.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

after I lightning kicked them int he face a few times for trying, falcos soon stopped trying to chainthrow me. just sayin.

 

[Bandit]

Yeah, I think there is a slight chaingrab on Zelda, but only about 2-3 grabs, & it won't be enough to get her to the ledge for a spike.

We need a tourney results thread, so we can see how Zelda's doing.

I have repeatedly said in the Zelda Community Center if people start submitting their tourney results, how many people, the link, character you lost to, etc... that I'd have that section. Unfortunately, there has only been two or three submissions, so I haven't made it yet.

 

[Kataefi]

I was looking at the Falco and Lucario boards and other character matchup threads, and most of them have really long descriptions as to how to deal with each character and what their own respective character must do and watch out for during the match.

I understand I have some of this in the OP, but not in that much detail. I think we should start writing longer matchup summaries. This can go to anyone of course! and anyone is welcome to throw in ideas and stuff and write their own summaries so I can quote them

It's normally split into various sections as such. I'll write one and see what everyone thinks. I'm just gonna try out and write a summary on peach because it's the last match i played and it's all fresh in my mind. Villi, sonic, especially NL I know you guys have great experience against them so hit me up on anything that's majorly wrong when I post it. Or maybe you guys want to write it!

Things to discuss:

*Behavior of Character- How will this character play a match against Lucario?

*Fundamental Moves- What moves are most used by this character, and what to watch out for?

*How to Win- What strategies should we incorporate? What tactics can we use to turn the match to our favor and get by the character's strategies?

*Recommended/Cautionary Stages- What stages can we use to our advantage to really mess them up? What stages do they like to use against us?

*Matchup Ratio- How far is the matchup in our/their favor overall?

 

[Bandit]

Are we just discussing characters that have been discussed and "agreed" upon in the match-up thread? Or, can we talk about any character?

 

[DanGR]

Which thread should I use for my matchup chart? This one or the stickied?