Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

Prove how metaknight is random?

Every character is random, as is every player. They aren't always going to do a certain thing or fight a certain way. o.o

EdreesesPieces said:

WE HAVE BANNED THINGS THAT ARE NOT BROKEN

METAKNIGHT DOESN"T HAVE TO BE BROKEN TO BE BANNED

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I would argue that this is more of a reason to unban the things that aren't broken rather than ban more things.

Woozle said:

Prove how metaknight is random?

Every character is random, as is every player. They aren't always going to do a certain thing or fight a certain way. o.o

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Your definition of "Random" is wrong.

bobson said:

I would argue that this is more of a reason to unban the things that aren't broken rather than ban more things.

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BTW, in case I didn't make it clear earlier (despite saying it multiple times), I would too.

Yuna said:

BTW, in case I didn't make it clear earlier (despite saying it multiple times), I would too.

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As would I.

Edreese never implied MK is random. All he said was that we are capable of banning things that aren't broken.

Though I disagree with his ultimate point and do believe that there is an inherent difference between banning a character and banning all these other things due to the nature of our game being, at it's core, one character fighting another, he is completely correct in that at the very least some things can be banned just because we want to.

Besides, if we were going to unban everything that's broken, then the competitive community would have a pretty big set of items on. +1 for Golden Hammer at Genesis? Items are staying banned despite not being broken.

as posted earlier (I don't feel like going through 1000 posts to find it though) why not just find a way to defeat MK wile the banning is still to be decided?(I personally think MK should be banned)

Sephiroths Masamune said:

as posted earlier (I don't feel like going through 1000 posts to find it though) why not just find a way to defeat MK wile the banning is still to be decided?(I personally think MK should be banned)

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I'll ask around, but I'm fairly sure that there's been one or two people who have tried to do that already to minimal success.


Anyway, I'm surprised (in a kind of pleasant way) at how many people are cool with banning something because we want to.

Yuna said:

4 tournaments?! Oh noes!

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4 =/= 0

Besides, Dedede only has five. Would you say he's not tournament viable, either?

I would like to know what consideration has been given to exit polls,

some questions that could be asked that would help the the Broom-B make as informed a decision as possible.

this poll would be private but have questions such as
Do you main MK
How often do you attend tournaments

There could be more but I think those are very important

Kage Me said:

4 =/= 0

Besides, Dedede only has five. Would you say he's not tournament viable, either?

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DDD wins more notable tournaments.
Thats the difference. OH and he places higher more often too. =)

Without MK the world will be a better place.

I voted yes because he is clearly better than everyone

and significantly better I might add

Don't ban IC infinite and this happens: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229732

How many people in this thread could beat ANY of the top 7?

ShadowLink84 said:

DDD wins more notable tournaments.
Thats the difference. OH and he places higher more often too. =)

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Not the point. Some guy said they didn't win tournaments, I corrected him. Whether or not the tournaments were "notable" is irrelevant.

Yuna said:

I wrote a very long post in response to your challenge about Food. You probably missed it. Please read it and reply to it.


It's not elitism, it's logic. The majority is often wrong on many things. This is why we don't have majority votes on many things. This is also why the rights of minorities are often not put to a majority vote. This is why black civil rights were legislated through the bench, not through a majority vote.

This is also why we don't put up polls in General when trying to decide on the ruleset for the majority. And I'm pretty it's like that in all fighting game communities. No community lets just any Tom, **** and Harry vote on the proposed ruleset.

They might not have an SBR of their own, but they still listen only or primarily to their most trusted and credible members.

If we allowed anyone to vote, we might end up with All Stages, All Items, Time.

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Dang, Yuna is attacking us subliminally. Thought you could sneak that by me did you?

Kage Me said:

Not the point. Some guy said they didn't win tournaments, I corrected him. Whether or not the tournaments were "notable" is irrelevant.

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I won a tourn at my high school with link. See what I did there?

Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
I don't want to point to the Meta tourney results again v.v

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Yuna said:

They prove MK is popular. And?

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That is a logically inconsistent answer.

You've mentioned popularity several times, and you've said that popularity is not a basis for banning a character. Considered alone, I agree with that. Popularity, in and of itself, does not justify a ban.

You've mentioned Sirlin frequently, so I assume you believe that overcentralization of the metagame is sufficient for a ban.

But there is a problem with overcentralization and your usage of the word "popularity".

One of the primary, valid methods of identifying overcentralization is analysis of tournament results lists over a long period of time. If a certain character, when considering the overall average of all results to help mitigate the impact of player skill, can be seen to consistently dominate those results, that character can be said to be overcentralizing the game.

So, if the average of all tournament results looks like this:

Meta
Meta
Meta
Snake
Meta

then there is overcentralization in the metagame.

Yet, you respond to that and say that such a result is merely a display of "popularity" rather than overcentralization.

This amounts to the claim that "If a large number people play a character, that character will dominate the tournament results due solely to the fact that a large number of people play that character." You are saying that the reason MK has so much success is not because he is overcentralizing the game; rather, it is due to the large number of players using him. Therefore, if a character is popular, according to your logic, tournament results lists will simply show that popularity, and are insufficient to prove overcentralization.

That claim is easily proven false.

Imagine the top 25 players in the nation. Imagine that all of them except for 5 suddenly start using Donkey Kong. This means that Donkey Kong is popular. Imagine that the other 5 players use DeDeDe. According to your proposition, due to the fact that Donkey Kong is so wildly popular, he should dominate the tournament results. However, it is clear that the top 5 would consistently be

D3
D3
D3
D3
D3

because DK cannot consistently beat DeDeDe.

Imagine that all of the Donkey Players instead switch to Jigglypuff and the remaining 5 players use Mr. Game & Watch. Again, the more popular character would not be present in the tournament results because Jigglypuff cannot consistently beat G&W.

The same scenario could be imagined with numerous character combinations, all with the same logical conclusion. Namely: popularity does not necessitate or predict tournament dominance. Popularity cannot logically be shown to lead to tournament dominance. Only absolute popularity, meaning that everybody uses the same character, leads to tournament dominance. Since absolute popularity is not present in the Brawl community, tournament results cannot logically be attributed to popularity.

As this simple bit of logic shows, tournament results are not driven by popularity. They are driven by the ability of a character to win.

So, it follows that your claim that the result

MK
MK
MK
Snake
MK

could possibly be attributed purely to popularity is a completely absurd idea, because the results lists are not driven by popularity, they are driven by the ability of characters to win. So when the average of all tournament results show that Meta Knight is dominating, it has nothing to do with popularity, and everything to do with the fact that MK's ability to win is resulting in an overcentralization of the metagame.

Now, whether or not the actual average of all tournament results really shows that MK has such a dominance is open to debate; but your assertion that popularity has anything to do with it is completely false.

Eyada said:

because DK cannot consistently beat DeDeDe.

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Bum versus any d3 that isn't Atomsk, plz. See what happens.

As most of us have stated, we're more than willing to wait for Genesis. It's very clear to me that MK is broken to the point of being bannable. For some others who either live in weaker regions, or have never gone toe to toe with a good MK who didn't happen to be sandbagging at the time, they feel that MK is beatable simply because a bunch of theorycrafters say that he has even match-ups (at best, mind you).

The only match-up that I would admit is possibly even, is the Wario match-up. Simply for the fact that I can't comprehend how any MK could gimp a good Wario.

But even this match-up is a stretch, considering MK's range as compared to Wario's. Can Wario DI through MK's fair and punish it with a uair or nair? Is this why the match-up is even? Or is everyone just assuming that the MK is going to give a lot more damage, making mistakes and getting punished by the Wario for roughly 1/3 the damage but still dying?

Fair/dtilt/ftilt to space, coupled with shuttle loop for early killing, seems to skew this assumption imo.

Diddy vs MK even? On certain stages, sure, if the MK doesn't know how to control bananas. But let's assume MK seconds Diddy. His banana control isn't going to be so dismissable now. The MK doesn't even have to USE the bananas against Diddy, just neutralize them, and then aggressively zone the stage to the point where Diddy is now cornered, and then go for the gimp. If a sourspotted nair from MK occurs below the stage or is DI'd improperly, the Diddy is as good as dead.

And this is talking about the "50/50" stages, such as SV, FD, or to some extent, BF. Oh no! MK just struck FD and SV, now the Diddy has to play on BF, where with his low horizontal movement speed in air and low falling speed lead to him being juggled to hell, and inevitably gimped at least once. Not an even match-up.


As for all of the speculators claiming Marth will bounce up to the top of the charts the instant MK is banned: um no. Diddy is a clear counter to Marth on all of the neutrals (if you don't believe me, I'd be more than willing to $20 MM you and all of your Marth playing friends at Devastation, Genesis, or EVO ) hell, I'd even go so far as to say it's an unwinnable match-up if both the Marth and the Diddy make the same number of mistakes (AKA are relatively the same skill level).

MK on the other hand, he's unstoppable. He invalidates far too many character's entire metagame.


Someone else said it quite clearly earlier, if every single character board has a thread dedicated solely to the MK match-up, and he's STILL dominating tournaments left and right, that says something doesn't it?

TheStrongestManattheCarnival said:

Bum versus any d3 that isn't Atomsk, plz. See what happens.

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You are discussing a region where the Infinite is banned. The Infinite is not banned everywhere, so its impact on the game has to be considered when looking at the national average of tournament results.

On the national scale, Donkey Kong is not a viable character. It doesn't matter how good Bum is. He will lose at any tournament where the Infinite is legal if he tries to go solo DK.

Dekar173 said:

As for all of the speculators claiming Marth will bounce up to the top of the charts the instant MK is banned: um no. Diddy is a clear counter to Marth on all of the neutrals (if you don't believe me, I'd be more than willing to $20 MM you and all of your Marth playing friends at Devastation, Genesis, or EVO )

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Somewhere, ADHD is trying to punch you in the face.

I can hear his annoying voice in my head: "MARTH IS SO GAY, OMFG"

He's the best diddy right now. What does that say about what you think?

Stop posting, nobody.

Eyada said:

You are discussing a region where the Infinite is banned. The Infinite is not banned everywhere, so its impact on the game has to be considered when looking at the national average of tournament results.

On the national scale, Donkey Kong is not a viable character. It doesn't matter how good Bum is. He will lose at any tournament where the Infinite is legal if he tries to go solo DK.

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Uh, sorry, but the infinite/small step chains are banned at every major. Bum has beat a LOT of top players and has made more money in the toughest region in the world than the best players in ****ty regions. His dk is unrivaled.

TheStrongestManattheCarnival said:

Somewhere, ADHD is trying to punch you in the face.

I can hear his annoying voice in my head: "MARTH IS SO GAY, OMFG"

He's the best diddy right now. What does that say about what you think?

Stop posting, nobody.

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Yeah especially a Marth vs. Diddy on battlefield.

Dekar173 said:

As for all of the speculators claiming Marth will bounce up to the top of the charts the instant MK is banned: um no. Diddy is a clear counter to Marth on all of the neutrals (if you don't believe me, I'd be more than willing to $20 MM you and all of your Marth playing friends at Devastation, Genesis, or EVO ) hell, I'd even go so far as to say it's an unwinnable match-up if both the Marth and the Diddy make the same number of mistakes (AKA are relatively the same skill level).

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You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Marth is Diddy's second worst matchup. Don't even attempt to act like you're a notable or even decent Diddy.

thumbswayup said:

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Marth is Diddy's second worst matchup. Don't even attempt to act like your a notable or even decent Diddy.

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The only thing that diddy gets ***** by, is Meta's SideB. Right thumbs? ^_^

TheStrongestManattheCarnival said:

Bum versus any d3 that isn't Atomsk, plz. See what happens.

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So Bum beating on people that aren't on his level means something? Because that's what you're implying.

And yes, Marth craps on Diddy. Hard.

Diddy is a clear counter to Marth on all of the neutrals
...
I'd even go so far as to say it's an unwinnable match-up if both the Marth and the Diddy make the same number of mistakes

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I literally almost fell out of my chair laughing

TheStrongestManattheCarnival said:

The only thing that diddy gets ***** by, is Meta's SideB. Right thumbs? ^_^

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Nah, just my Diddy

TheStrongestManattheCarnival said:

Uh, sorry, but the infinite/small step chains are banned at every major. Bum has beat a LOT of top players and has made more money in the toughest region in the world than the best players in ****ty regions. His dk is unrivaled.

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Hmm. That's a good point that I failed to consider. The D3/DK comparison isn't as clear-cut.

However, the Jigglypuff/G&W example, and the general principle I was attempting to show, still stands.

Emblem Lord said:

So Bum beating on people that aren't on his level means something? Because that's what you're implying.

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Uhh, no. Atomsk has played Bum a lot, not to mention seen him play a ton too. Bum versus Lain, who is also way too good would probably end in Bum's favor, despite the match-up, because bum is a beast.

thumbswayup said:

Nah, just my Diddy

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^_^

TheStrongestManattheCarnival said:

Uh, sorry, but the infinite/small step chains are banned at every major. Bum has beat a LOT of top players and has made more money in the toughest region in the world than the best players in ****ty regions. His dk is unrivaled.

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A lot of big tournaments don't ban the infinites. Further, I can't even imagine how you can justify banning the small step chaingrab. It's not an enforceable ban as it can't be proven you did it, it's not gamebreaking (not to the extent of Metaknight), and worst of all, you're literally talking about banning grabbing while walking. It's not discrete or enforceable.

Didn't you say yourself that nobody cares if a technique negatively effects bad characters?

And you think banning Metaknight makes our community look bad? XD

These alternate accounts are rather bothersome. -_-
Also, why does Smashboards display that there is a page 159 and 160 in this topic?
@_@

Next poll we have.

Id like to see...

How many said Yes to the ban, and have had at least 3 tournament experiences.

And how many said No to the ban, and have had at least 3 tournament experiences.

It should clear things up on a lot of different viewpoints and understands.

TheStrongestManattheCarnival said:

Uhh, no. Atomsk has played Bum a lot, not to mention seen him play a ton too. Bum versus Lain, who is also way too good would probably end in Bum's favor, despite the match-up, because bum is a beast.



^_^

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We should team mm Hylian and Dojo at Apex because we'd win

Maybe this is the latest page xD

As the leader of a Pro Ban group...

As the leader of "Viva La Revolution - The Official Rebellion to Ban Metaknight" I say this:

The current reasons presented are not enough to win over the SBR. In the past, even when we had over 50% of votes going to the pro ban side, it wasn't enough to be taken into account.

There isn't a single, solid reason to ban Mk besides saying that he is broken. In Mks case, broken is an incredibly long list of little things that don't effect the turnout of a match significantly. But when paired with another small reason, and another, and another(etc.) it makes it viable to say that Mk will win. Thus making his match ups, and stages all in his favor.

But what isn't viable to say at this point is that Mk should be banned because of Whobo results. Many top players weren't there. Many Mk mains were. But even if they were there, it would reside down to two decisions.

#1 - The top results were all Mks again, and Mk should be banned.

#2 - The top results varied in character, and this topic is dismissed for now.

Pro ban players need to clearly argue their case here. Just like how anti bans have been doing.

Wait till Genisis, Or Ban him Now.

Praxis said:

A lot of big tournaments don't ban the infinites. Further, I can't even imagine how you can justify banning the small step chaingrab. It's not an enforceable ban as it can't be proven you did it, it's not gamebreaking (not to the extent of Metaknight), and worst of all, you're literally talking about banning grabbing while walking. It's not discrete or enforceable.

Didn't you say yourself that nobody cares if a technique negatively effects bad characters?

And you think banning Metaknight makes our community look bad? XD

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Grab. CG to 200%. fthrow. That's less Gamebreaking than meta?

And see if you can go a game without Atomsk grabbing you. Please, even m2k gets grabbed by him nonstop.

thumbswayup said:

We should team mm Hylian and Dojo at Apex because we'd win

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Yes plz.

ShadowLink84 said:

These alternate accounts are rather bothersome. -_-
Also, why does Smashboards display that there is a page 159 and 160 in this topic?
@_@

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Your regular account is bothersome. 5k posts, and how many of those has one truely good player read and acknowledged?

Darxmarth23 said:

As the leader of "Viva La Revolution - The Official Rebellion to Ban Metaknight" I say this:

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Umm.. Who the hell are you?

TheStrongestManattheCarnival said:

Your regular account is bothersome. 5k posts, and how many of those has one truely good player read and acknowledged?

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You're not a troll at all. =/

Falconv1.0 said:

You're not a troll at all. =/

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I could plank Azen.