powuh_of_PIE
Smash Journeyman
zelda should borrow sheik's DACUS every once in a while >.>
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Sexy Poses!: An In-Depth Move Analysis for Zelda - Move #18-20, 22 Up/Down B, Dash A
- Thread starter JigglyZelda003
- Start date
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
or sheik could borrow Zelda's heels.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
So, about that dair. (A.k.a. let's get back on topic or move to another attack if we're done with this one.)
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
you can buffer things out of dair on a grounded oponent.... that can be cool.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
With 21 frames of landing lag on dair, you'll never get a frame advantage from it unless you SH it perfectly. Even if you do, I'm almost positive that Zelda doesn't enough of an advantage to do anything (except perhaps at reasonably high percentages)..... I'll double check to be sure, though.
You can always try, though. Like I said, most people assume the stun is longer than it is.
You can always try, though. Like I said, most people assume the stun is longer than it is.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
the only time i've made follow ups off of it is wifi lol
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
pretty sure Dair can case sufficient stun if you time the landing right... maybe it just trips at certain damages or something
sniperworm
Smash Ace
I did Dair (pop the opponent into the air) to Usmash on a Snake at a high percent (like 150-160ish) this past weekend. I didn't autocancel it or anything special, I just did it (I fell on him with it, not SH or anything like that). I dunno if it "combos", but it worked, so that was cool.
Anyway, Dair is okay for challenging people who are coming up beneath you every once in a while. The surprise factor of you actually using Dair is usually enough to let it work. Otherwise (besides spiking), Dair is a fairly useless move as it only works from a position that Zelda should always try to avoid (her being directly above the opponent).
Anyway, Dair is okay for challenging people who are coming up beneath you every once in a while. The surprise factor of you actually using Dair is usually enough to let it work. Otherwise (besides spiking), Dair is a fairly useless move as it only works from a position that Zelda should always try to avoid (her being directly above the opponent).
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
I'm assuming dair is done, then? Nobody has any potential spike setups they want to contribute? No one? Okay....
I'll try to get the next move up by tomorrow.
I'll try to get the next move up by tomorrow.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Non sweetspot dash attack - Spike.
Jab - Spike.
Dsmash - Spike.
Ledgewarp - Spike.
Air Cancel Neutral Air - Spike.
Jab - Spike.
Dsmash - Spike.
Ledgewarp - Spike.
Air Cancel Neutral Air - Spike.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Dair is another taunt.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
that is one use if you get bored of the other taunts.
you can SHDair from the edge. you don't always end up at your doom when doing it, unless you FF down to someone with it and they are really low.
One thing on Dair:
In peoples opinion do you have more success with spiking coming down on an opponent then jumping back afterwards. Or falling down and using your mid-air jump to stop your momentum and space the Dair?
In other words do you try to sort of fall past them as you spike, or do you pause mid-air to spike them.
Just trying to improve my own Zelda's Dair as I go here since I usually miss with it.
In peoples opinion do you have more success with spiking coming down on an opponent then jumping back afterwards. Or falling down and using your mid-air jump to stop your momentum and space the Dair?
In other words do you try to sort of fall past them as you spike, or do you pause mid-air to spike them.
Just trying to improve my own Zelda's Dair as I go here since I usually miss with it.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
OP Updated.
OP has been updated. Let's discuss Din's Fire!
An interesting thing I found out: there are two ways to detonate the fireball at maximum range. Not really useful as far as the cooldown info (since they'll be too far to punish anyway), but the hitbox comes out at different times, so that could affect how you catch people out of airdodges and whatnot.
Both methods deal the same amount of damage and, as far as I can tell, the same amount of knockback.
Also, read the "Additional Information" section. There's some info about how long it takes the hitbox to appear from when you release the B button, as well as how long it takes the hitbox to appear from when the fireball briefly disappears.
OP has been updated. Let's discuss Din's Fire!
An interesting thing I found out: there are two ways to detonate the fireball at maximum range. Not really useful as far as the cooldown info (since they'll be too far to punish anyway), but the hitbox comes out at different times, so that could affect how you catch people out of airdodges and whatnot.
Both methods deal the same amount of damage and, as far as I can tell, the same amount of knockback.
Also, read the "Additional Information" section. There's some info about how long it takes the hitbox to appear from when you release the B button, as well as how long it takes the hitbox to appear from when the fireball briefly disappears.
10 - 16 frames of shield stun? Is 10 frames of stun at its shortest length and 16 at its longest? That should make it generally safe on shield from short-mid distances onwards... iiiiiinteresting!
I use stutter stepped din's all the time to interrupt aerials... before and after the hitboxes appear. I'll bring up my information tomorrow when I get pictures! =D
Kaylo is there is a difference in lag time when you explode din's just before you touch the ground in the air? It seems to be a lot faster, as if it autocancels =/ I dunno...
Also... does the 2 ways of exploding din's apply to any distance?
I use stutter stepped din's all the time to interrupt aerials... before and after the hitboxes appear. I'll bring up my information tomorrow when I get pictures! =D
Kaylo is there is a difference in lag time when you explode din's just before you touch the ground in the air? It seems to be a lot faster, as if it autocancels =/ I dunno...
Also... does the 2 ways of exploding din's apply to any distance?
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Yes to your questions.
But Zelda still has a -9 frame disadvantage at best, which is enough time for most characters to dash-cancel a grab on her before she can do anything. (Depends on the distance, of course.) If they're slow, though, you could get lucky and be able to spotdodge or dsmash successfully.
@Din's from the air: Not sure, but I'll test it eventually.... just didn't get to it tonight since I have plans soon. There's definitely some sort of difference, I think.... but I don't know if it's the cooldown lag that's affected. It might just be the animation that's weird.
The 2 ways of exploding Din's doesn't apply to any distance but maximum distance. It's physically impossible..... if you were to hold the B button at mid-distance, the fireball would just keep going without exploding, lol.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
I hate you. Hush, minion!
It's just a setup, really, except maybe at very low percentages (as usual). Din's has ridiculous knockback and is really easy to see coming, so DI'ing it is child's play.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
am i the only one who wavebounce Dins, or does someone else use it, even for lols?
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
I din's all the time... I know everyone thinks it is a terrible move... but I like it and usually have success with it. Just don't expect it to hit all the time. I use it to keep the pressure on! I play better when my opponent does not have as much time to think so keeping constantly on the defensive even when far away or in an awkward position is useful.
B-reversed insta-Din's seems to combo into Up air quite a bit, killing a lot of characters fairly early. Actually a lot of things seem to combo from a very short distance Din's.. but it is such a dangerous thing to do!
B-reversed insta-Din's seems to combo into Up air quite a bit, killing a lot of characters fairly early. Actually a lot of things seem to combo from a very short distance Din's.. but it is such a dangerous thing to do!
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
If you're playing against someone who doesn't know how to avoid it, this move is a godsend. If, however, you're actually playing someone decent, then it's nowhere near as good.
Din's Fire can be cancelled out by high priority aerials (most characters have at least one), and of course with good timings it can be airdodged. However, if they try to airdodge it, if you see it coming you can send the blast behind them slightly, outlasting the airdodge and still hitting them, since at the later stages, the hitbox of the move is huge.
Din's also has some use in edgeguarding, since it can kill off the top at high percents, assuming that you can outrange their aerials and outlast their airdodges. Unfortunately, this move isn't a very good camping tool due to its ending lag, and shouldn't be used at close range at all.
There's more to it than that, but all in all it's a decent move if you know when to use it and when not to use it.
Din's Fire can be cancelled out by high priority aerials (most characters have at least one), and of course with good timings it can be airdodged. However, if they try to airdodge it, if you see it coming you can send the blast behind them slightly, outlasting the airdodge and still hitting them, since at the later stages, the hitbox of the move is huge.
Din's also has some use in edgeguarding, since it can kill off the top at high percents, assuming that you can outrange their aerials and outlast their airdodges. Unfortunately, this move isn't a very good camping tool due to its ending lag, and shouldn't be used at close range at all.
There's more to it than that, but all in all it's a decent move if you know when to use it and when not to use it.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
One thing worth mentioning is it can stage spike if the blast radius hits someone under the stage moving towards the ledge. It's usually a ROB or something hovering there, unless the person's an idiot and decided to just stay hanging on the ledge after the invincibility frames, lol
It can be cancelled out by high priority attacks - but I always say why clash with these attacks when you can target their startup and cooldown with moderate success?
A lot of SH aerials take commitment - for example, I've been playing against a lot of Ike recently and I'm guessing his committed Fair approach is around 14-16 frames. That gives me a 1-13 frames plus of course the frames of FH startup and of course the frames it takes for him to actually be in the air and travel, we're looking at around 30 frames to predict when he's to use it and throw it out before the hitbox comes out. Now if you stutter step away from the aerial, even if din's doesn't connect, the aerial isn't hitting you and you have a good chance to recover because it takes frames for them to walk or run at you. A stutter stepped din's goes really far btw... much further than a stepped Fsmash.
Also, you can attempt to target the ledge just before they snap to invincibility - which gives them 2 options: either be hit by it, or airdodge and miss the ledge. Bad recoveries hate this! I think edgeguarding's better though... meh!
And a missed tech means you can at least chase with it - if they don't tech from jab, dash attack, dsmash etc... then you can try to punish one of their tech options. If they're smart, they'll abuse the invincibility as din's explodes, but a lot of nervous players tech quickly if you keep the pressure on throughout the game.
A lot of SH aerials take commitment - for example, I've been playing against a lot of Ike recently and I'm guessing his committed Fair approach is around 14-16 frames. That gives me a 1-13 frames plus of course the frames of FH startup and of course the frames it takes for him to actually be in the air and travel, we're looking at around 30 frames to predict when he's to use it and throw it out before the hitbox comes out. Now if you stutter step away from the aerial, even if din's doesn't connect, the aerial isn't hitting you and you have a good chance to recover because it takes frames for them to walk or run at you. A stutter stepped din's goes really far btw... much further than a stepped Fsmash.
I still think powershielding is so much better though.
Also, you can attempt to target the ledge just before they snap to invincibility - which gives them 2 options: either be hit by it, or airdodge and miss the ledge. Bad recoveries hate this! I think edgeguarding's better though... meh!
And a missed tech means you can at least chase with it - if they don't tech from jab, dash attack, dsmash etc... then you can try to punish one of their tech options. If they're smart, they'll abuse the invincibility as din's explodes, but a lot of nervous players tech quickly if you keep the pressure on throughout the game.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Everyone should have the basics of this move down:
use it agianst recoveries that were going to make it back anyway
use it to burn certain projectiles (I use it against pikachus a lot and it frustrates them that it eats their jolts AND hits them)
use it to punish dodges
use it to set up traps (airdodge din's... get hit by utilt/uair for example.)
use it when pillar camping
use it to gimp a few recoveries
USE IT AGAIST STUPID ROBS GOING UNDER THE STAGE FOR HILARIOUS STAGESPIKES (they shoulda seen it comin')
Use it on teams..... a lot.
use it agianst recoveries that were going to make it back anyway
use it to burn certain projectiles (I use it against pikachus a lot and it frustrates them that it eats their jolts AND hits them)
use it to punish dodges
use it to set up traps (airdodge din's... get hit by utilt/uair for example.)
use it when pillar camping
use it to gimp a few recoveries
USE IT AGAIST STUPID ROBS GOING UNDER THE STAGE FOR HILARIOUS STAGESPIKES (they shoulda seen it comin')
Use it on teams..... a lot.
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
I wasn't aware that when you hit ROB with Din, Brawl suddenly breaks out into a musical scene from Chicago.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
but . . . he had it comin' . . . he had it comin' . . . he only had himself to blame . . .I wasn't aware that when you hit ROB with Din, Brawl suddenly breaks out into a musical scene from Chicago.
And I would play brawl a lot more if it did that whenever I stagespiked a ROB that way
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
Hahahaha.
Well, Sakurai is willing to put in length cut scenes for final smashes and seems to be accepting non-nintendo licensed characters. Here's hoping for something interesting in SSB4
Edit:
Oh dear. I seem to have hijacked the thread.
Hm... Uses for dins...
NL showed me that at a certain range and certain percentage, Din will combo into f-air. This I have not tested, but from the videos, it does actually seem unescapable.
Before that, I had been using Din as a recovery on certain stages like smashville. It protects you on the way down, and I often find sets up nicely for a u-air. Use wisely, though, because some characters can get through it.
Another thing I sometimes do (though it's usually because lag registered my ledgehop b-reversal as forwardB for some reason) is ledgehop > Din. Din gives you quite a boost so you can get onto the stage even if you start it while underneath the ledge. This "combos" into U-smash I believe, at lower percentages.
As it has been said, Din is excellent for baiting. Send out two long range ones when your opponent is recovering from far away. As they approach, they'll try to get past it or airdodge. Detonate it about 3-4 zelda width's away from you and then as they come out of airdodge or hitstun, a lightning kick or uair will usually connect.
I sometimes use it during close-range hand-to-hand combat as a sort of mindgame--just like Shiek's SH d-air. No one really expects a long range projectile to come out while someone is right in zeldas face.
Well, Sakurai is willing to put in length cut scenes for final smashes and seems to be accepting non-nintendo licensed characters. Here's hoping for something interesting in SSB4
Edit:
Oh dear. I seem to have hijacked the thread.
Hm... Uses for dins...
NL showed me that at a certain range and certain percentage, Din will combo into f-air. This I have not tested, but from the videos, it does actually seem unescapable.
Before that, I had been using Din as a recovery on certain stages like smashville. It protects you on the way down, and I often find sets up nicely for a u-air. Use wisely, though, because some characters can get through it.
Another thing I sometimes do (though it's usually because lag registered my ledgehop b-reversal as forwardB for some reason) is ledgehop > Din. Din gives you quite a boost so you can get onto the stage even if you start it while underneath the ledge. This "combos" into U-smash I believe, at lower percentages.
As it has been said, Din is excellent for baiting. Send out two long range ones when your opponent is recovering from far away. As they approach, they'll try to get past it or airdodge. Detonate it about 3-4 zelda width's away from you and then as they come out of airdodge or hitstun, a lightning kick or uair will usually connect.
I sometimes use it during close-range hand-to-hand combat as a sort of mindgame--just like Shiek's SH d-air. No one really expects a long range projectile to come out while someone is right in zeldas face.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
*wonders which of the 6 Merry Murderesses of the Cook County Jail Zelda would be*
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Chicago talk goes to the social thread, please (unless you post something on-topic with it). Thanks.
The only real way to use Din's with success is to:
Not use it "deliberately." (The term Bobby likes to use, lol.)
and/or
Use it as a trap.
Trying to straight-up hit someone rarely works, because even the shortest Din's burst takes 30 frames to come out, whether you're stutter stepping, gliding, or whatever. The only way Din's should be hitting someone is if they're in startup/cooldown lag or getting outright beaten by it in the middle of their move. (Kataefi already covered this, of course.)
As a trap, it works wonders, which is why I generally edgeguard with Din's rather than put myself at risk with normal edgeguarding.... but I don't really play around off the ledge -- yet -- with any of my characters, so that may be a personal preference. However, the fact that Din's forces one of very few possible responses from your opponent makes it an excellent booby trap as they come back to the stage.
Generally, their options will be:
Use a high-priority aerial.
Airdodge.
Fast fall.
Recover early.
Get hit.
Most commonly, the opponent will choose one of the first two, especially airdodging. And Zelda loooves when people airdodge above her.
For characters recovering low to the stage (perhaps because of a well-timed dsmash), Din's can trick them into airdodging, which can be the kiss of death for characters with bad vertical recoveries. Another possibility -- if they aren't at risk of dying by Din's -- is that they'll wait for the explosion, hoping the knockback will launch them higher into a better recovery situation.... just fake them out, explode it outside of its range, and hopefully they will have fallen far enough to make their recovery path a predictable one.
Predictable recovery = spike bait.
Also, a side note: it's nearly always beneficial to explode Din's on the ground at a character's feet when you can. Not only will it hit shielding characters when their shield is somewhat diminished, but if they hit you before you let go of the B button, it'll still explode instead of going its maximum distance. (Beginner's knowledge, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway.)
Stupid Pikas are stupid.
The only real way to use Din's with success is to:
Not use it "deliberately." (The term Bobby likes to use, lol.)
and/or
Use it as a trap.
Trying to straight-up hit someone rarely works, because even the shortest Din's burst takes 30 frames to come out, whether you're stutter stepping, gliding, or whatever. The only way Din's should be hitting someone is if they're in startup/cooldown lag or getting outright beaten by it in the middle of their move. (Kataefi already covered this, of course.)
As a trap, it works wonders, which is why I generally edgeguard with Din's rather than put myself at risk with normal edgeguarding.... but I don't really play around off the ledge -- yet -- with any of my characters, so that may be a personal preference. However, the fact that Din's forces one of very few possible responses from your opponent makes it an excellent booby trap as they come back to the stage.
Generally, their options will be:
Use a high-priority aerial.
Airdodge.
Fast fall.
Recover early.
Get hit.
Most commonly, the opponent will choose one of the first two, especially airdodging. And Zelda loooves when people airdodge above her.
For characters recovering low to the stage (perhaps because of a well-timed dsmash), Din's can trick them into airdodging, which can be the kiss of death for characters with bad vertical recoveries. Another possibility -- if they aren't at risk of dying by Din's -- is that they'll wait for the explosion, hoping the knockback will launch them higher into a better recovery situation.... just fake them out, explode it outside of its range, and hopefully they will have fallen far enough to make their recovery path a predictable one.
Predictable recovery = spike bait.
Also, a side note: it's nearly always beneficial to explode Din's on the ground at a character's feet when you can. Not only will it hit shielding characters when their shield is somewhat diminished, but if they hit you before you let go of the B button, it'll still explode instead of going its maximum distance. (Beginner's knowledge, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway.)
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
in their defense: how should they know? who plays Zelda anyway?
And pika's isn't the only projectile she can burn: it works well against toonie too, and can gimp earthbounder recoveries. Pika's is just the one that I think bears mentioning the most.
I'm glad you threw this in there. I didn't know it, beginner's knowledge or not.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Din's combos?
A.k.a. shameless bump until I get back.
Side note: I've been playing around with my timing, and there are a lot of serious mindgames you can pull with Din's at long range, especially when you're edgeguarding. The last time I played, I forced more than a few panicky SDs from people who'd automatically airdodge and accidentally put themselves in an impossible recovery position.
Also, I knew Din's had broken range at max distance, but it's almost unfair how far it reaches, lol. I killed someone off the side of FD when the fireball was barely past the edge. x.x
A.k.a. shameless bump until I get back.
Side note: I've been playing around with my timing, and there are a lot of serious mindgames you can pull with Din's at long range, especially when you're edgeguarding. The last time I played, I forced more than a few panicky SDs from people who'd automatically airdodge and accidentally put themselves in an impossible recovery position.
Also, I knew Din's had broken range at max distance, but it's almost unfair how far it reaches, lol. I killed someone off the side of FD when the fireball was barely past the edge. x.x
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Din's combos.... ummm... if they are in front of and below you and you're on a platform, MAYBE they'll pop up into you . . .
*shrug?*
*shrug?*
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
What mars?
I've baited many kills from a "fake" din on a recovering opponent.
I've baited many kills from a "fake" din on a recovering opponent.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
We're talking about Din's Fire in Brawl, not Din's Fire in Melee.
Half-Split Soul
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,686
It's nice for getting little damage in every time enemy makes a mistake and is left vulnerable at middle range or to punish something like missed Marths F-smash (if you can predict it, that is). "Good" for occasional punishing and baiting but not something you can always rely on in a match.
sniperworm
Smash Ace
Din's Fire...
All I'm going to say is that this is by far my favorite move with Zelda (okay fine, you got me, I'm going to say a little bit more).
Din's is such a deep and complicated move. I could write so much about it if I wanted to, but alas I'm me.
Happy Din's camping ya'll!
All I'm going to say is that this is by far my favorite move with Zelda (okay fine, you got me, I'm going to say a little bit more).
Din's is such a deep and complicated move. I could write so much about it if I wanted to, but alas I'm me.
Happy Din's camping ya'll!