Sexy Poses!: An In-Depth Move Analysis for Zelda - Move #18-20, 22 Up/Down B, Dash A

[MrEh]

Din's can be used for a lot of things. Most of which will get you killed.

Use it to force an approach. That's usually the safe option.

 

[-Mars-]

For once I actually agree...

 

[Veggie123]

When your average Zelda player is in doubt, he or she falls back on her smashes...and Din's fire of course

Its primary use is for baiting. A player that knows how to air dodge won't get hit by it or they'll take the hit if they need some help recovering back onto the stage. It's also so slow when used at max range that there is no way to have it hit unless your opponent makes a mistake and you'll need to be good at predicting mistakes (or just keep using Din's Fire, can't avoid it foreverrrrr). People who spam aerials out of stun are usually Din's #1 victims. Also know the highest chance you'll hit with Din's is usually the most punishable!

Again that's all pretty general, I think everyone got the good stuff covered already

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Din fire is the sex and if you're not using this move then you're doing it wrong.

 

[SinkingHigher]

lol

10lols

________________________

*MOAR RELEVANCE PL0X!*

Din is a bad bad move, imo, but when the opportunity arises, like all of zeldas moves, it can really do some ****. I use it generally only when my opponent is off stage and above me. As NL pointed out, it can lock a Lightning kick, so thats the only other time i use it.

Yeaaahhhh

 

[KayLo!]

It's also so slow when used at max range that there is no way to have it hit unless your opponent makes a mistake.

That's not entirely true. Yes, almost-max/max range Din's is slow as balls, but it also has such great range that you can afford to hold it out longer or detonate it sooner than your opponent might realize. Waiting for their airdodge/aerial to end or exploding it early isn't so hard to do, and because it reaches so far, there's a great chance that you'll end up hitting them.

But yeah, I primarily use Din's to force airdodges. It's pretty much a guaranteed airdodge, although the smart players will quickly figure out which of their aerials cancel it out.... at which point you need to get creative.

However, Din's is far from useless. Is it a great projectile? No. But to say that it's useless is ridiculous.

 

[PK-ow!]

I think I said this before but I 'll say it again because it's still true:

Don't use Din's Fire to hit people.
Use it to make people move the way you want them too.

If they screw up the counter, then hooray, free damage. Spam it some more and side taunt. =\

But assume they will always get through the Din's Fire in the most profitable way possible.

I'll stress this too: Do NOT use this move "when in doubt." Unless you're playing some scrub, do NOT cast this spell if you don't know exactly what you are doing. Period. In that scenario, you really ought to be looking at positioning, for when the opponent comes down from the air (where he probably is) or otherwise gets his mojo on again.

Even if it's, 'your opponent has made a mistake far away,' going for Din's is greedy. Think not about damage now, but about the damage that will end his stock later. Get back into the positioning that gives you the fortress defense once again.


Edgeguarding against slow recoveries, though.

Also, persistent fireball against lazor spam is hilarious. Too bad they have reflectors. Even the god**** Robot.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think I said this before but I 'll say it again because it's still true:

Don't use Din's Fire to hit people.
Use it to make people move the way you want them too.

If they screw up the counter, then hooray, free damage. Spam it some more and side taunt. =\

But assume they will always get through the Din's Fire in the most profitable way possible.

I'll stress this too: Do NOT use this move "when in doubt." Unless you're playing some scrub, do NOT cast this spell if you don't know exactly what you are doing. Period. In that scenario, you really ought to be looking at positioning, for when the opponent comes down from the air (where he probably is) or otherwise gets his mojo on again.

Even if it's, 'your opponent has made a mistake far away,' going for Din's is greedy. Think not about damage now, but about the damage that will end his stock later. Get back into the positioning that gives you the fortress defense once again.


Edgeguarding against slow recoveries, though.

Also, persistent fireball against lazor spam is hilarious. Too bad they have reflectors. Even the god**** Robot.

This.

Especially the last part. lol

Edit:

So can someone please clarify what exactly I have to do to get the second Din's fire thing?

Do I just have to let go of the button just before it automatically explodes?

 

[Veggie123]

That's not entirely true. Yes, almost-max/max range Din's is slow as balls, but it also has such great range that you can afford to hold it out longer or detonate it sooner than your opponent might realize. Waiting for their airdodge/aerial to end or exploding it early isn't so hard to do, and because it reaches so far, there's a great chance that you'll end up hitting them.

Holding it out longer just gives people more time to airdodge most of the time, but alternating gives some viability. That being said, the range is nice but I think it only makes a substantial difference in doubles where it's harder to concentrate on the projectile with so much more going on. I mean the hitbox could be as large as the whole stage (ie Norfair), but if you know when it'll hit then it shouldn't be too hard to avoid

 

[KayLo!]

Holding it out longer just gives people more time to airdodge most of the time, but alternating gives some viability. That being said, the range is nice but I think it only makes a substantial difference in doubles where it's harder to concentrate on the projectile with so much more going on. I mean the hitbox could be as large as the whole stage (ie Norfair), but if you know when it'll hit then it shouldn't be too hard to avoid

The point of its having more range is that you can afford to hold it out longer and wait for their airdodge to end. With a more precise move, you'd miss if you waited for the airdodge's cooldown lag; with Din's, because it reaches so far, you'll still hit them even if the fireball has traveled past them.

You said "if you know when it'll hit," but that's the thing: the opponent doesn't know when it'll hit because you can detonate it anytime you want. Once they airdodge, they're committed and will go through cooldown lag, at which point you set off Din's.

Not foolproof, but if you vary the timing, it makes it a lot easier to hit with. At the very least, it's better than always going straight for the center of their hurtbox.

Anyways, are we done with Din's? I can update the OP tonight if you guys would like to move on, but if there's still more to discuss, I'll wait until I get back from VA on Tuesday.

 

[zeldspazz]

I think we are done with Din's, do to the no reaction Kaylo

 

[Kataefi]

Nuuuuu! not yet!

I need to post my extra special information =D

I'll do it once I get the pictures from my SD card. I'll do it now.

 

[zeldspazz]

*waits for kata to come back*

 

[KayLo!]

Oops. XD I forgot about updating, my bad.

But I'll wait for Kataefi's Extra Special Information.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Nuuuuu! not yet!

I need to post my extra special information =D

I'll do it once I get the pictures from my SD card. I'll do it now.

3 hours later....

 

[Kataefi]

What's this?

Haha! My extra special information =D It's actually not very special at all >.<

It's a little guideline as to when and where din's will hit the target. The fiery blobs represent din's, and the people represent the max range in which that din's will strike them. So red din's will strike the red person from that distance. It's done on ZSS, who's very slender, so the range of din's should be larger for those with larger body parts. The number represents the damage dealt at around that range. Zelda is standing on the far right.

It starts to get good range from 12% onwards. I'm just highlighting the range because a lot of zelda's like to explode din's on the target. They can speed the process in which they lag if they cut down on those extra travel frames. And you can save quite a few, which is always nifty!

It takes 50 frames for din's to get to max explosive distance once it's out. I took that information from the 31 startup time, to 79-80 hitbox of the longest din's. In perspective it takes Samus 54 frames to recover her missile firing animation and pika 58 frames to recover from Tjolt. There are others but I can't be asked to list them. So basically, the only way you'll ever trade against these types of projectiles is if you space around half to a tad more-than-half the distance of FD (12-14% din's) between zelda and her opponent, otherwise their projectiles will just win every single time and they'll dodge every din's thrown. From that distance mentioned though, it'll get significantly riskier for them to projectile camp.

This is just trivial information to bear in mind, so if you ever do decide to mix it up and use din's then this spacing length seems to be ideal. Trades favour din's fire because of the damage output. Spacing any closer than that will put you at risk of being hit if the opponent rushes in fast. Long distance din's seems to favour opponents who are offstage or high above.

 

[Ochobobo]

Verrry nice diagram, Kataefi. I especially like the Toon Zelda on the far right, nice touch, lol.

 

[Kataefi]

Thank google ocho :D

 

[sasook]

Whoa..... that red distance range is broken lol. Never knew it extended the further it got.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What's this?

Haha! My extra special information =D It's actually not very special at all >.<

It's a little guideline as to when and where din's will hit the target. The fiery blobs represent din's, and the people represent the max range in which that din's will strike them. So red din's will strike the red person from that distance. It's done on ZSS, who's very slender, so the range of din's should be larger for those with larger body parts. The number represents the damage dealt at around that range. Zelda is standing on the far right.

It starts to get good range from 12% onwards. I'm just highlighting the range because a lot of zelda's like to explode din's on the target. They can speed the process in which they lag if they cut down on those extra travel frames. And you can save quite a few, which is always nifty!

It takes 50 frames for din's to get to max explosive distance once it's out. I took that information from the 31 startup time, to 79-80 hitbox of the longest din's. In perspective it takes Samus 54 frames to recover her missile firing animation and pika 58 frames to recover from Tjolt. There are others but I can't be asked to list them. So basically, the only way you'll ever trade against these types of projectiles is if you space around half to a tad more-than-half the distance of FD (12-14% din's) between zelda and her opponent, otherwise their projectiles will just win every single time and they'll dodge every din's thrown. From that distance mentioned though, it'll get significantly riskier for them to projectile camp.

This is just trivial information to bear in mind, so if you ever do decide to mix it up and use din's then this spacing length seems to be ideal. Trades favour din's fire because of the damage output. Spacing any closer than that will put you at risk of being hit if the opponent rushes in fast. Long distance din's seems to favour opponents who are offstage or high above.

Thats some pretty cool stuff there man. I knew the hit box on a fully charged Din was broken but **** that covers a lot of distance.

 

[zeldspazz]

Wow, thats about 1/4 of final desitination >.>

Pretty sweet stuff Kata

 

[KayLo!]

And people said Din's was useless.....

See, if you mix up your timing, it actually becomes a somewhat almost kinda viable projectile.

Really good stuff, Kata.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Somewhat almost kinda viable... I think that alone says it all. I still love it but it just simply fail if used as an projectile alone.

And yeah, useful and helpful picture Kat.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i wonder what move Kaylo will do next

 

[KayLo!]

Haven't decided yet. Suggestions are welcome, though.... I haven't started testing anything else.

 

[Kataefi]

i wonder what move Kaylo will do next

It's unbelievably undeniably positively SOOO exciting isn't it?!

My vote swings to nair. I'm only keen on its shield stun.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Nairs fine by me, i was gonna suggest "the charger"

 

[mountain_tiger]

Nair sounds good. It'd also be cool if we could discuss Uair or DSmash.

 

[GodAtHand]

I like nair... so sparkly......

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I like nair... so sparkly......

+10 zelda points for love of sparkles

 

[KayLo!]

Kataefi, someone else can take this thread. I'll PM you the rest.

If anybody wants it, you can let either myself or Kata know.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i might be interested in taking it, i haven't run a thread for a while

 

[Kataefi]

I was planning on taking over this, but actually that would be pretty good jiggs if you took over... can I give you ownership right now?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

you can give me ownership whenever, sorry i didn't reply faster though, i was leaving class lol

 

[Kataefi]

Alright jiggs you are in ownership of this thread Good luck!

I think the next move is Nair... any chance you can get pictures... you can steal some from the research thread if you want as I have the majority of her moves pictured in there.

Also Kaylo... what happens now with the frame data and testing and such?... because that's what this thread was built on... any chance you can provide your amazing data in the second OP of this thread when we move onto the next attack? (I'm talking stuff like shield stun, shield lag, 2D/3D etc etc etc...)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i might steal some, or take them myself lol

but that will have to wait till later this afternoon cause im on my way to class.

i hope kaylo can still do the frame data though, or show me how to do it cause idk how

 

[KayLo!]

Whose post did you hijack to give me the second one? XD

Yeah, I can do frame data for whatever move's next. I might lag a bit behind Jiggs, but it'll get done within a reasonable amount of time........ I hope. Nair is going to be a *****, but I'll try to finish the data by tomorrow afternoon.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Nair official discusion begins

thanks Kaylo <3

i'll have pics up tonight, cause im still at school atm, but anyone who wants to can start on Nair discussion.

 

[MrEh]

Nair OoS.

Platform pressure.

^^

 

[KayLo!]

Works as an approach on tall characters. .......If your opponent is ******** or doesn't see it coming..... -_- Not like Zelda has many other approach options, though, if she's forced to do it.

Intercepts a fair number of non-disjointed aerials, but you have to be somewhat careful, because all the priority is in Zelda's hands. The hitbox doesn't extend to her feet or even halfway down her legs, really, so it can easily get beaten by poor spacing.

Lasts long enough to catch people out of airdodges if you're not in a position to uair or usmash.

Otherwise, pretty much what MrEh said.