Earthbound360
Smash Hero
He contacted me first :3
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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
- Thread starter Yink
- Start date
Um, actually Super missiles do fly over Ness if you duck(and if that's all you're shooting...).
And with regards to the bat, that was referring to the single-missile/Charge shot combo timing.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Dude your back.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Yup, camp ended earlier than expected
Crystanium
Smash Hero
I'm aware of that. However, ducking won't work against partially to fully charged Charge Shots as well as Homing Missiles.
In regard to the bat, I'd say that it would be better to take lesser risks. It wouldn't be good if your opponent was Samus, fired a Super Missile, and you didn't time Ness' f-smash correctly. I've seen some Ness players manage to do this, even my brother, but it's probably better to not do it, unless you are confident or skilled enough to perform it accurately.
PKNintendo
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I've got the Samus experience to do it confidently. And I believe that matchup charts in general are meant to propose what happens when characters are played at the metagame level? Therefore a (near-)perfect Ness should hit this every time he attempts it. Not to say to whip out the bat at every projectile thrown, but it can throw Samus off when mixed in. Every advantage helps right?
Crystanium
Smash Hero
You should then realize that Samus' Charge Shot will eat through the Super Missile and still fly toward you. I love doing that to my opponents. They'll play as Mario or Pit, and they'll use the Cape or Mirror Shield and then withdraw it, only to see that the Charge Shot is coming their way, and bam, they get hit!
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Don't you mean, "It's a pain in my Ness"?
Levitas
the moon
Dryn, have you actually expressed an opinion on the matchup in terms of numbers yet, or are you agreeing that Ness does have a slight advantage?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
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updated.
10 chars
10 chars
Toon Link is a BEAST! He's a pain for a lot of characters, and Ness is no exception. Taking our best attribute(air) and being really good at it. ****** us on the ground and in the recovery department. He's possible to gimp, but it isn't easy and requires great prediction and perfect timing. Definitely not an easy matchup...but certainly not Ness' worst. Bat can reflect projectiles if TL gets predictable, things like d-air and grab are VERY punishable. Find a way to force him to approach and this battle can be won. But getting him to do that is the hard part as most TLs will pitch a tent and shoot at you constantly.
Lucas is terrible against Toon Link. A character I haven't used since the game first came out and got through SSE, I took down a skilled Lucas player with Toon Link almost effortlessly. The only reason I lost is because I SD'd twice. Okay, besides that, Toon Link is the type of character who can be hard or easy to fight against. The overused arrow, boomerang and bombs can be hard to get through, but there are ways of getting through this. If you're the type that rolls too much, you should stop immediatly. His d-smash, unlike Link's, pulls you in and you get hit twice which can kill.
This might be just me, but I lost against Toon Link about two months ago since I never knew how to approach him. I lost recently against Toon Link for being stupid enough to land into one of his attacks. If anything Toon Link shouldn't use his bombs since Ness can just grab them in the air when thrown at him. The boomerang isn't hard to dodge, but you have to remember that it comes back. Luckily for us, Toon Link can't aim his arrows. So if he starts to spam, just do some jumping, air dodging and whatever else you can to approach him. Of course don't attack head on. Perhaps grab him instead of actually attacking.
Okay so is Toon Link really hard to defeat? Somewhat, but he's not that hard. I'd say it's pretty much anyones game.
This might be just me, but I lost against Toon Link about two months ago since I never knew how to approach him. I lost recently against Toon Link for being stupid enough to land into one of his attacks. If anything Toon Link shouldn't use his bombs since Ness can just grab them in the air when thrown at him. The boomerang isn't hard to dodge, but you have to remember that it comes back. Luckily for us, Toon Link can't aim his arrows. So if he starts to spam, just do some jumping, air dodging and whatever else you can to approach him. Of course don't attack head on. Perhaps grab him instead of actually attacking.
Okay so is Toon Link really hard to defeat? Somewhat, but he's not that hard. I'd say it's pretty much anyones game.
Ummm Im not sure If toon Link is that hard to beat. Sure hes good at camping, but fair catches bomb (right?) and well timed baseball bats can actually make Toon Link want to approach. His idle animation blocks grounded PKF which is a pain sometimes. His sword range on the ground is good, but Ness can dash attack with good placement to pop him in the air. PKT if you think he will dair, use the tail to cancel it out or hit him in the head with PKT. If he`ll air dodge, you might wanna chase him down with arieals, even though Shouta Rinku has pretty good range in the air too.
all in all I think maybe ness will be at a disavantage, not as as u have put it giant one though, like 60:40 toon Links favor or 65:35 toon links favor.
all in all I think maybe ness will be at a disavantage, not as as u have put it giant one though, like 60:40 toon Links favor or 65:35 toon links favor.
uhmmm...the first post has it as 60-40 in TL's favor, it was never said a giant one.
it was at 30-70 when I posted.
whups, sorry, oh well then I agree...It's not like he's Marth or G&W...
Crystanium
Smash Hero
I'm not in agreement of Ness having a slight advantage yet. I'll have to ask some Samus mainers what they think of Ness.
Im actually with you. I think Samus is kinda hard. I think they could be neutral
PKNintendo
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updated.
10chars
10chars
Good. Sounds like you've fought a good Sonic player. I was all for Ness having the biggest advantage over Sonic before. But Tenki gave me too good of a fight and lately Sonic hasn't been easy to kill. I say your match-up with Sonic sounds about right.
PKF can shut down Sonics rools at you...well maybe not shut down entirely but they are good at stopping him in his tracks, cause even if you miss him if you shoot a lil ahead of him he might back off and try somethign eles/try it again but from farther away. And thats all I really know about Sonic. Oh and if he tries to go under the stage and use homing attack to stall, just PKT.
Well Sonic can feint. He'll look like he's starting up a roll but really all he is doing is fooling you. You're probably better off attacking head on when he does this. Believe it or not, Sonic does have mind games. I didn't think they were all that great, but they are. You can hope for PK Fire or the yo-yo to work, but don't always rely on it. Often times if Sonic mains see this, they'll probably just feint, jump over your attacks and strike you from behind. You're probably better off going in for a hyphen smash. Of course you can counterpick the stages, too. The worst one for Sonic is probably Rainbow Cruise or some stages that move or have some strange things that aren't good for Sonic.
Just a heads up, Sonic's spring can be blocked by uair, nair, bair and Ness' yo-yo. So if Sonic tries to use his jump > spring > dair, just go for it and use your uair or whatever can stop Sonic.
Just a heads up, Sonic's spring can be blocked by uair, nair, bair and Ness' yo-yo. So if Sonic tries to use his jump > spring > dair, just go for it and use your uair or whatever can stop Sonic.
ROOOOY!
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Well done PK, I agree with what you said. I'd only disagree with the spiking bit, Sonic's not that easy to spike and attempting to do so and failing will put you in a dangerous position.
At least people are mindful that Sonic actually has mindgames ¬_¬. You can cancel spincharges and that, why would you roll into the ****?
I'd give it a 55-45 for Ness too, but that's basically neutral, there's nothing to give between them
At least people are mindful that Sonic actually has mindgames ¬_¬. You can cancel spincharges and that, why would you roll into the ****?
I'd give it a 55-45 for Ness too, but that's basically neutral, there's nothing to give between them
PKNintendo
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Thanks for the input.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
I'd say a very slight advantage is here. Ness is good at stopping his approaches. Dtilt stops his dash attack and any roll, and Ness totally outdoes him in the air. The problems with Sonic being his very good ability to gimp Ness and difficulty to kill since Ness' finishers are a bit precise. 55-45 Ness.
_clinton
Smash Master
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I love playing as Sonic
Anyway...the one thing I remember when fighting Ness vs. Sonic is the simple fact that Sonic has to come to you...the more aggressive you are...the more work you put on yourself...
Sonic is another character that I play purly defensive with and it works for some reason...
60-40 Ness IMO
Anyway...the one thing I remember when fighting Ness vs. Sonic is the simple fact that Sonic has to come to you...the more aggressive you are...the more work you put on yourself...
Sonic is another character that I play purly defensive with and it works for some reason...
60-40 Ness IMO
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Play against Tenki. He plays a very good Sonic. He's one of the best I've seen. I have brawled with him.
PKNintendo
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updated.
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on the bright side, from what I've seen, not too many Warios know about this yet.
But yeah, he's a pain to beat. Not much more that wasn't in original post...60-40 seems right to me.
Left side is us(I thought that would have been obvious from Ike/TL/Wario). Always the standard for comparison(in this case Ness) is on the left.
I thought so. I just thought I'd go ahead and ask to make sure.
PKNintendo
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Look on the bright side, barely anyone knows about this, and you can do this back to Wario. (if he's on feet don't touch the ground when you grab him.)
Wario can be hard to handle if the player using him can effectively use him. There are a few tricks we can use to beat him.
Don't let his strange aerial movement put you mess you up.
When he's off the edge try to figure out when he will use his bike so you can spike him off of it. Once you learn when to jump over him to spike him edgeguarding him will become so much easier.
Try to predict when he will use his fsmash as he moves forward when using it and it seemingly has very little start up time. Wario's fsmash does not move as much as Wolfs fsmash but is useful to remember.
His dsmash does not last the whole animation so try to catch with a grab or smash of your own if he whiffs it.
When his Wario waft is fully charged do not get above him or below him. If he is high enough to the ceiling and he uses the move at a full charge it will kill him.
Don't PKF his bike as it will go straight through it and leave you open to get run over. Instead try to use an aerial two get him off, such as dair. Some more showy Warios might taunt on the bike, in the time they are taunting they can't do anything except go forward on the bike so punish this. If the bike is on the stage and has not been destroyed Wario cannot use it to get back to the stage which severely gimps him.
Bite goes through Ness's shield so keep that in mind. Bite will also eat thrown projectiles but will cause Wario to have some ending lag. Destroy his bike and grab a wheel, you can either hit him with it or make it really obvious you're going to throw it at him so that they will use bite. When they do this let him eat the part and punish.
His main approaches are the bike and his dair. Dair can be dangerous if you're not aware of it. It does both damage and decent knockback if the last hit connects.
I don't know about aerial game of Wario (except stay away from the clap) but I do know Skyworld would be a good counterpick if its available. Kill the platforms with dtilt then when the opportunity is right spike him down through the cloud. I tend to do this if I see him about to use bike then I jump over him before he hits me and spike him with dair. You can also destroy the two end platforms so that you don't have to worry about setting up an edgehog since the grabbable ledge is no longer there. I don't believe Wario can spike so you should have less worries here. And since the stage is relatively small Wario won't be able to approach you as well. His dair approach helps you as it will destroy a tile allowing you to spike him easier.
I wouldn't say the grab release on Ness is as dangerous since Wario grabs Ness with Ness's feet off the ground in both running and standing grabs. This can still allow Ness to break out with a jump.
As for grab release in both of Ness's grabs running and standard, Wario will always have his feet on the ground (unless you grab him over the edge). Can someone test if chain grab releasing him across the stage will work? I understand quite a few people can infinite Wario. If chain grab releasing does work then I would say Ness is even with Wario if not slightly disadvantaged. I believe the main thing hindering players against fighting Wario is the lack of knowlegde when it comes to fighting him.
The Wario matchup takes some getting used to as he is not like any of the other characters on the roster.
Once again I'm sorry for the wall of text.
Don't let his strange aerial movement put you mess you up.
When he's off the edge try to figure out when he will use his bike so you can spike him off of it. Once you learn when to jump over him to spike him edgeguarding him will become so much easier.
Try to predict when he will use his fsmash as he moves forward when using it and it seemingly has very little start up time. Wario's fsmash does not move as much as Wolfs fsmash but is useful to remember.
His dsmash does not last the whole animation so try to catch with a grab or smash of your own if he whiffs it.
When his Wario waft is fully charged do not get above him or below him. If he is high enough to the ceiling and he uses the move at a full charge it will kill him.
Don't PKF his bike as it will go straight through it and leave you open to get run over. Instead try to use an aerial two get him off, such as dair. Some more showy Warios might taunt on the bike, in the time they are taunting they can't do anything except go forward on the bike so punish this. If the bike is on the stage and has not been destroyed Wario cannot use it to get back to the stage which severely gimps him.
Bite goes through Ness's shield so keep that in mind. Bite will also eat thrown projectiles but will cause Wario to have some ending lag. Destroy his bike and grab a wheel, you can either hit him with it or make it really obvious you're going to throw it at him so that they will use bite. When they do this let him eat the part and punish.
His main approaches are the bike and his dair. Dair can be dangerous if you're not aware of it. It does both damage and decent knockback if the last hit connects.
I don't know about aerial game of Wario (except stay away from the clap) but I do know Skyworld would be a good counterpick if its available. Kill the platforms with dtilt then when the opportunity is right spike him down through the cloud. I tend to do this if I see him about to use bike then I jump over him before he hits me and spike him with dair. You can also destroy the two end platforms so that you don't have to worry about setting up an edgehog since the grabbable ledge is no longer there. I don't believe Wario can spike so you should have less worries here. And since the stage is relatively small Wario won't be able to approach you as well. His dair approach helps you as it will destroy a tile allowing you to spike him easier.
I wouldn't say the grab release on Ness is as dangerous since Wario grabs Ness with Ness's feet off the ground in both running and standing grabs. This can still allow Ness to break out with a jump.
As for grab release in both of Ness's grabs running and standard, Wario will always have his feet on the ground (unless you grab him over the edge). Can someone test if chain grab releasing him across the stage will work? I understand quite a few people can infinite Wario. If chain grab releasing does work then I would say Ness is even with Wario if not slightly disadvantaged. I believe the main thing hindering players against fighting Wario is the lack of knowlegde when it comes to fighting him.
The Wario matchup takes some getting used to as he is not like any of the other characters on the roster.
Once again I'm sorry for the wall of text.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Grab release fsmash can be hard to time sometimes. Super grab break to shock the Wario into not timing the fsmash right.
You outdo him in the air very well. I've played Warios and they say they hate playing Ness because the fair is like a brick wall to them. That certainly helps.
Slight dis here IMO
You outdo him in the air very well. I've played Warios and they say they hate playing Ness because the fair is like a brick wall to them. That certainly helps.
Slight dis here IMO
Crystanium
Smash Hero
I know it's late, but whatever.
False. Samus has several options to choose from. Her Charge Shot possesses B-reversal. She can also be looking in the opposite direction and still fire Homing and Super Missiles toward her opponent.
OoS + Screw Attack beats this.
She needn't be close to even hit anyone in the air. Being in the air means more options for Samus. Now, I don't know what you mean by no combos, because I have witnessed Gum, a Samus main, perform u-air to f-air to Screw Attack on R.O.B.
"So floaty" is an exaggerated term. I fail to see how your conclusion correlates with your first premise. Let's not forget that Samus is the fourth heaviest character in the game.
DI. If you don't believe me, ask my brother, Uffe, ask PKSkyler, and ask Earthbound360. The irony is that some of you Ness mainers make the match-up 6:4, but the only two people I have ever fought against who play as Ness and have beaten me are Earthbound360 and my brother. I haven't beaten Earthbound360, and sometimes I win against my brother, and sometimes my brother wins against me. I have beaten _clinton's Ness with my Samus, and I have done the same with PKSkyler's.
If she's in the air, more z-air and Homing Missile spam. What's that? I think this means that if Ness can't get near Samus, then Ness isn't going to win. N-air if you wish, but you can't n-air every Homing Missile. What it will do is leave you open to get hit by Samus' z-air.
Yes Dryn speaks the truth, Of course I think my bthrow was a little stale( I used it once before I THINK) but im not entirely sure. I honestly think that samus should be 50-50 with Ness....of course I havent played Dryn off of wi-fii but playing him still changed my opinion on Samus.