PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[NessOnett]

I quit for like a month or two, so my Ness is pretty weak atm. I've been lurking around and posting here and there for about a week now since i picked up my controller again. Still cant get any of my tech-timing back, so pretty much all my matches revolve around mindgaming right now. glad to see i was missed/remembered. Hopefully I helped contributing something to this discussion, and I'll try and watch my matchups better to be able to contribute things in the future.

 

[BoTastic!]

I can't see Ness with the advantage. Im going with even.

 

[PKNintendo]

I quit for like a month or two, so my Ness is pretty weak atm. I've been lurking around and posting here and there for about a week now since i picked up my controller again. Still cant get any of my tech-timing back, so pretty much all my matches revolve around mindgaming right now. glad to see i was missed/remembered. Hopefully I helped contributing something to this discussion, and I'll try and watch my matchups better to be able to contribute things in the future.

I hope so. Before you came along, my faith in the Ness mains was diminishing.
Counter Ness vs Mario arguments just died out. And it seemed like Matador's long post equated to him being right.

 

[Matador]

I've tried to be civil. I have called any names, nor have I perfect evidence on Mario. But neither do you. I've only pointed some factual evidence on Mario being a weaker killer in Brawl. Thats true, but you and your ubbdy take it to the next level. 7-3 is 70%-30%. Thats ridiculous. Do you know how ridiculous that claim is? Your only claim to it being 7-3 is Mario being a good edge guard on Ness.

On paper 7-3 against Mario is just ridiculous. An angled Upsmash does not kill at 100%. Now thats bull****, (just tested it vs Ness) Why don't you stop cussing, think rational we could come to a conclusion. But Mario's simple edge guarding tricks won't mean a perfect matchup.

Okay, I'm willing to start this over. 7:3 are my thoughts alone. I only believe that because I figure that since Ness has a powerful projectile game, that he'd be a little reliant on it. Cape hinders that heavily. Also, Mario's ability to edgeguard Ness is also a very powerful Con for Ness in this match. Not only that, but Mario's ground and aerial game contends well with Ness' too. Since these are things that most of the cast can't do as well as Mario, I figured that this should be one of the matches that a Ness main would need to look out for.

PS: You have anger issues.:embarrass

Pfft, you started it

Now updated.

I've seem to have gotton a rebuttle on the Mario boards.
Bull. All Bull.

Mario ***** Ness' recovery. Period. There's no way around that, you have NO third jump. That alone would give Mario the advantage, but let's delve deeper.

Ness' fair is the only aerial worth anything. Mario has double sh aerials that all combo into each other aside from his fair, all lightening quick, and have many uses. Bair's good for spacing, Dair and Nair for priority, and all are good combo starters. If you were going to attack something, it definitely shouldnt have been Mario's aerial game.

His groundgame > Ness' as well. MUCH faster smashes aside from Ness' Fsmash, which comes out as quick as our Dsmash or reverse Usmash. More KO power with and Up-angled Fsmash. Excellent Jab game that ***** Ness, double SH aerials, cape for your PK fire/thunder, and can actually combo moves into each other. Utilt chains, Uair chains, Jab-Dsmash all work on Ness without fail.

Mario's edgeguarding on Ness >>>>> Ness' edgeguarding on Mario. Please don't try to argue against this, you'll just seem silly. Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.

The ONLY thing I'd give Ness in this matchup is approach because for his Fair, which can be shieldgrabbed either way.

7:3 Mario's favor.

Edit: Just because you have your DownB to make a fireball approach less useful, don't think that it won't happen. If you recover that percent, you still have lag after taking down the magnet, which I, for one, would abuse the hell out of.

Do your research dude, I guarantee the only Mario you've played was one of these scrubs runnin around here. Play a good one.

Discuss.

You call my argument one-sided when you post crap like that? I admit, mine was rushed, but you must agree, your's is pretty terrible. Mario's ground game is average (like Ness')

MUCH faster smashes? lol.
***** his recovery is a bit much. Fair is the only aerial worth anything. LOL. You may play Mario 24/7, but you surely know nothing about other characters. Ness has some of the best aerials in the game.
Ness Nair, bair, uair and dair all trump Mario's in terms of effectiveness. I've seen Mario's aerials, they're not that impressive.

Yeah, mine was terrible and one-sided and all that junk, only because your post was a reflection of mine. Childish, yes, but it caught your attention the way yours caught mine.

You don't agree that Mario's Dsmash, Fsmash, and Usmash are faster than Ness' Usmash and Dsmash? They may come outfaster than Mario's Fsmash at least, but the ending lag isn't good at all. They're both too easy too punish imo. Your Fsmash is slower than our Dsmash as well, and about the same speed as our Fsmash (maybe faster but not significantly).

Ness' recovery = Olimar's/ Link's recovery for Mario. It's that bad. There's only so much variation you can do with your DJ or stalling that'd really stop the gimp. Being offstage isn't a good position here either way you slice it.

I agree, I was wrong, and well aware of it when I spoke on Ness' aerials and Fair. I don't agree with your Nair, Bair, Uair, and Dair being more effective than Mario's counterparts.

Edit: Fsmash KOs Ness at around 100% (give or take about 10) from the center of FD.

Edit @ NessOnett: I agree with the fight being more defensive for Mario because of Ness' aerials, but they're not even that serious. Fireballs and shieldgrabs would go through them fine. I don't agree that Ness' edgeguarding on Mario > Mario's edgeguarding on Ness. Going low is the worst place to be vs Mario when recovering. The best place is always high. Fludd may not reach you there, but you're vulnerable to upB spikes, Bair spikes, ledgestalls, capes. Your descent below the edge shouldn't even happen because of mario's capeglide hindering aerial movement. Ness' edgeguarding has never really been a problem for me since Mario's upB has high priority and he can defend his approach to the stage well.

 

[PKNintendo]

And I still need to play a skilled Ness. There's still too much room for error here since neither character is widely played so the matchup doesn't come up too frequently. All of this is speculation. On paper, I believe that 7:3 is about accurate. If a good Ness comes and ***** my ****, however, I'd be inclined to change it. I just don't see that happening tho.

Your not trying hard enough. 1. you need to Find those Ness mains and play them. 7-3 matchup is usually for a high tiered character. Mario is not Snake or MK or Wolf. He's just Mario. Im not going and saying Ness>Mario. at a 7-3 level. Thats just ridiculous.

 

[Gindler]

Honestly, I love playing as ness but I'd have to say Mario's for sure got the advantage. after he launches you off the level you're pretty much dead, before your midair jump he'll start throwing out fireballs (here you have a few choices, pull out your magnet and fall to your death, air dodge it an get ready for the incoming aerial he's about to hit you with, or take it and try to midair jump through his incoming aerial, and of course as everyone knows after midair jump he just needs to spray a little water on you while pkting)

Mario with his fireballs seems to have alot more options returning to the stage (plus since alot of ness' attacks hit people upwards he'll have an easy time returning unless you interfere). When mario starts throwing out fireballs you can't really absorb them in the air or he'll get back safely while you're trying to drop the magnet, which i'm sure he'd trade giving you 10 percent back while he gets to live longer. Cape stalling is fun too, and his UpB is really quite awesome (pretty much a dolphin slash just with multiple hits). Plus that Fsmash has sooooo much power, and a good mario knows to charge it for like 1/10th a second to take advantage of the spot dodge you first did when you saw him winding up.

Sooo yeah, I like playing as Ness more but in all honesty I give mario a 6:4 at least.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Match-up's numbers aren't really dictated by tier placements. Sheik has a 7-3 at least on Fox and she's not even close to high tier.
However, as much as this 50-50 idea's been thrown around, the only real advantage that Mario is said to have on Ness is to FLUDD his recovery (which IMO isn't that great anyway.)
I know people were arguing about Mario comboing Ness in the air, but surely a Ness using a Nair would bugger that up?
^^Theoretical. I haven't played a good Mario with a Ness yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[BoTastic!]

And I still need to play a skilled Ness. There's still too much room for error here since neither character is widely played so the matchup doesn't come up too frequently. All of this is speculation. On paper, I believe that 7:3 is about accurate. If a good Ness comes and ***** my ****, however, I'd be inclined to change it. I just don't see that happening tho.

Your not trying hard enough. 1. you need to Find those Ness mains and play them. 7-3 matchup is usually for a high tiered character. Mario is not Snake or MK or Wolf. He's just Mario. Im not going and saying Ness>Mario. at a 7-3 level. Thats just ridiculous.

He already said he was wrong.

Oh no one has need to be high tier to have a huge advantage over someone.

Apparently Mario has a huge advantage over Rob, who is one of the best characters in the game.

anyway. If we can't settle this. I think we should settle for even.

What do you think Pknintendo?

 

[PKNintendo]

He already said he was wrong.

Oh no one doesn't need to be high tier to have a huge advantage over someone.

Apparently Mario has a huge advantage over Rob, who is one of the best characters in the game.

anyway. If we can't settle this. I think we should settle for even.

I suppose. When did he say he was wrong?

 

[Neon304]

I quit for like a month or two, so my Ness is pretty weak atm. I've been lurking around and posting here and there for about a week now since i picked up my controller again. Still cant get any of my tech-timing back, so pretty much all my matches revolve around mindgaming right now. glad to see i was missed/remembered. Hopefully I helped contributing something to this discussion, and I'll try and watch my matchups better to be able to contribute things in the future.

Yet you can still easily pwn me XD.

I have seen first hand Ness's worth, whoopin my ***.

 

[BoTastic!]

When did he say he was wrong?

I agree, I was wrong, and well aware of it when I spoke on Ness' aerials and Fair. I don't agree with your Nair, Bair, Uair, and Dair being more effective than Mario's counterparts

.

He said it in his last post.

 

[Levitas]

We need to acknowledge that we're not getting a consensus at all here. Let's put this discussion on hold, and Mario dudes, actively seek out ness opponents sometime. I'm gonna find a mario or two at the smashfest tomorrow and beat him up for a bit so I can feel the matchup.

There's no way that I can acknowledge a consensus as neither the Matador nor I have faced skilled enough opponents to really know for sure.

I seriously recommend we put this debate on hold for another time, and research the matchup more in the meantime.

 

[PKNintendo]

Honestly, I love playing as ness but I'd have to say Mario's for sure got the advantage. after he launches you off the level you're pretty much dead, before your midair jump he'll start throwing out fireballs (here you have a few choices, pull out your magnet and fall to your death, air dodge it an get ready for the incoming aerial he's about to hit you with, or take it and try to midair jump through his incoming aerial, and of course as everyone knows after midair jump he just needs to spray a little water on you while pkting)

Mario with his fireballs seems to have alot more options returning to the stage (plus since alot of ness' attacks hit people upwards he'll have an easy time returning unless you interfere). When mario starts throwing out fireballs you can't really absorb them in the air or he'll get back safely while you're trying to drop the magnet, which i'm sure he'd trade giving you 10 percent back while he gets to live longer. Cape stalling is fun too, and his UpB is really quite awesome (pretty much a dolphin slash just with multiple hits). Plus that Fsmash has sooooo much power, and a good mario knows to charge it for like 1/10th a second to take advantage of the spot dodge you first did when you saw him winding up.

Sooo yeah, I like playing as Ness more but in all honesty I give mario a 6:4 at least.

I'm the opposite. When I get knocked of the stage, I usually get back on pretty easily. Ness double jump works wonders on getting back on the stage. When I edgeguard Mario using my aerials, I go in for a PK jum>PK fire, to pull him, off the stage. Dodge the PKF, I go in for an aerial, he capes it, he dies. If PK fire is too hard to use, I use PK thunder. His Fmash is also predictable and easy to shield and punish. Tilting it increases it's speed, but not to magical levels. Cape stalling can be remedied by a PKT. And When Mario is under the stage, or near it, PKT will spike him under it.

Of course, most people assume we're constantly playing in FD. I don't. I usually counterpick, where the edges don't suck, and level doesn't favor projectile spammers. So if you lost to a Mario on FD. Counterpick.

 

[Matador]

We need to acknowledge that we're not getting a consensus at all here. Let's put this discussion on hold, and Mario dudes, actively seek out ness opponents sometime. I'm gonna find a mario or two at the smashfest tomorrow and beat him up for a bit so I can feel the matchup.

There's no way that I can acknowledge a consensus as neither the Matador nor I have faced skilled enough opponents to really know for sure.

I seriously recommend we put this debate on hold for another time, and research the matchup more in the meantime.

Fair enough.

Edit @ PKNintendo: Perhaps there's one thing we can agree on before we wrap this up. Yoshi's is the best neutral for Ness to pick on this matchup because there's no edges. Bair and upB spikes aren't nearly as effective, and Ness can score kills as quickly as we can. Mario's stage spikes work on the rest of the neutrals.

 

[PKNintendo]

Fair enough.

Agreed.

10chars

 

[Gindler]

I'm the opposite. When I get knocked of the stage, I usually get back on pretty easily. Ness double jump works wonders on getting back on the stage. When I edgeguard Mario using my aerials, I go in for a PK jum>PK fire, to pull him, off the stage. Dodge the PKF, I go in for an aerial, he capes it, he dies. If PK fire is too hard to use, I use PK thunder. His Fmash is also predictable and easy to shield and punish. Tilting it increases it's speed, but not to magical levels. Cape stalling can be remedied by a PKT. And When Mario is under the stage, or near it, PKT will spike him under it.

Of course, most people assume we're constantly playing in FD. I don't. I usually counterpick, where the edges don't suck, and level doesn't favor projectile spammers. So if you lost to a Mario on FD. Counterpick.

Hmmm well pkf seems to have substantial amount of lag when I use it so I can't follow it up with alot (except of course that rising Dair thing). I've had some opponents actually tech when I "stage spike" them with pkt and it ends up helping them, but yeah they usually don't and it's pretty fun.

True I was thinking of FD (I can't help it, fav level ), and I'm probably no where near as good as you guys are with ness so I might think mario gets more credit than he sederves or something.

 

[NessOnett]

before your update for the day PKNintendo, I was just wondering where you are getting this order from? Is there a set way you're going to approach, this? Or just pulling random opponents out of your ***? It might help to know this so I can watch/play specific opponents and have something more useful to contribute to conversation. Even just at the bottom of you updates put something like:
Matchup for tomorrow is...<insert name here>

 

[PKNintendo]

before your update for the day PKNintendo, I was just wondering where you are getting this order from? Is there a set way you're going to approach, this? Or just pulling random opponents out of your ***? It might help to know this so I can watch/play specific opponents and have something more useful to contribute to conversation. Even just at the bottom of you updates put something like:
Matchup for tomorrow is...<insert name here>

Pulling random characters out of my butt.

 

[NessOnett]

I don't quite know why, but I seem to have difficulty with Samus. I can never time the n-air right to neutralize her missiles. She kicks Ness' @$$ in speed:range ratio on the ground. Difficult edgeguard with how many ways she has of getting back(d2mn bombs). z-air = bych! missiles mess with approaches. Pretty heavy so PKFire can work pretty well. Opinions seem pretty well varied, so I can't give a sure number myself.

edit: @PKN: may want to update the title to Samus

 

[PKNintendo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183602&page=1

It seems the Samus mains have Ness listed as a disadvantage. Of course it won't affect the decision, I just threw it out there for you guys.

 

[_clinton]

Samus

DO NOT challenge Samus on Battlefield. It's practically impossible for you to approach her.

On other levels, things get easier. Samus is horrible at killing. Her charge missile shouldn't give you much trouble due to psi magnet. And Samus is heavy, so trapping her in PKF shouldn't give you too much trouble.

On the ground, both characters are even. Samus has her missiles while, Ness has PKF.
(with PK jump of course) In the air, Samus shouldn't pose too muchb of a threat. Ness is quite small, so Samus needs to try extra hard to hit the little coackroach.

All an all, this matchup seems to be in Ness' favor.
EXCEPT on Battlefield. I suggest you counterpick asap.

To be fair when I'm Samus I perfer FD over BF

Samus can kill Ness at 130% or so with a fresh down tilt
Plus most Samus' spam a missile before firing the Charge Shot...you know they can missile cancel right? Hell getting hit by zAir is another reason why your going to get hit by a charge shot...the stun from zAir is long enough for Samus to fire a charge shot on you...Samus is pretty floaty as well as being a heavy weight...it is about 50/50 for getting out of PK Fire...

zAir in general pretty much means that Ness may have issues coming in close to Samus

However Samus' missiles can be canceled out by nAir...and Ness like you said is kind of small (damm kids) so zAir may miss...if Samus is trying it on Ness when he is on the ground...however...where does Ness like to fight?

IMO 50/50

 

[PKNintendo]

To be fair when I'm Samus I perfer FD over BF

Samus can kill Ness at 130% or so with a fresh down tilt
Plus most Samus' spam a missile before firing the Charge Shot...you know they can missile cancel right? Hell getting hit by zAir is another reason why your going to get hit by a charge shot...the stun from zAir is long enough for Samus to fire a charge shot on you...Samus is pretty floaty as well as being a heavy weight...it is about 50/50 for getting out of PK Fire...

zAir in general pretty much means that Ness may have issues coming in close to Samus

However Samus' missiles can be canceled out by nAir...and Ness like you said is kind of small (damm kids) so zAir may miss...if Samus is trying it on Ness when he is on the ground...however...where does Ness like to fight?

IMO 50/50

I might change it, but I find that B-sticking PKF gets over Samus' missile spam. Zair is a pain in the ***, but hitting Ness with it isn't easy. Small kids remember? A fresh down tilt kils at 130%? Are you sure? Anyway, besides that, Samus lacks a reliable killer on Ness. Ness step kick assault is awesome on Samus. (down tilt) and footstool combo's work well on big characters.

Her being floaty doesn't help escape PKF that much.

But aside from a few matches with a Samus main, I haven't got much more info. 55-45 maybe?

PS: If you who I think you are. Canonly Ness>All/

 

[Levitas]

I'd think 6:4 min for Ness. Samus has real issues with mobility, priority, and KOs. Just so you know, the top five attributes that make a character good IMO are the following in no particular order: Mobility, priority, KOs, range, and recovery/survivability.

If samus is in the air facing away, guess what? a bair is coming.

If samus is on the ground, fair her. or come in from the upper forward with a dair. whatever.

Her aerials and Zair all autocancel, but that's not a big concern because she can't combo, and you can't punish aerials well with your puny grab range.

You KO her at the normal percent range, since she's so floaty. 130% for the bthrow.

If she's in the air, your attack will win. If she's on the ground, she's not that hard to get in the air. Adv. Ness.

 

[Meian]

While I have to agree with most of the posts about Ness vs. Samus, I notice I often have problems avoiding her grab even if I am spot dodging. Perhaps I need to roll or be in the air more often against her.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'd think 6:4 min for Ness. Samus has real issues with mobility, priority, and KOs. Just so you know, the top five attributes that make a character good IMO are the following in no particular order: Mobility, priority, KOs, range, and recovery/survivability.

If samus is in the air facing away, guess what? a bair is coming.

If samus is on the ground, fair her. or come in from the upper forward with a dair. whatever.

Her aerials and Zair all autocancel, but that's not a big concern because she can't combo, and you can't punish aerials well with your puny grab range.

You KO her at the normal percent range, since she's so floaty. 130% for the bthrow.

If she's in the air, your attack will win. If she's on the ground, she's not that hard to get in the air. Adv. Ness.

I agree wit this post.

 

[CometStar]

I don't have much experience with this matchup but I will say the Samus's I play have a hard time getting KOs.
Some will attempt to change into ZSS and use the power suit pieces as an edgeguard for the last stock. Thrown power suit peices surprisingly have decent knowckback. Catch them if you can and throw them back at her.

Anyone know if she can grab you out of the air? This is something I've been wondering.

 

[PKSkyler]

I don't have much experience with this matchup but I will say the Samus's I play have a hard time getting KOs.
Some will attempt to change into ZSS and use the power suit pieces as an edgeguard for the last stock. Thrown power suit peices surprisingly have decent knowckback. Catch them if you can and throw them back at her.

Anyone know if she can grab you out of the air? This is something I've been wondering.

She cant grab you out of the air, but she can use her zair(her grab in midair) and its got a long reach, does decent damage, and is pretty good.

 

[Uffe]

Samus isn't horrible at killing. She actually has pretty decent kill moves. Her d-tilt can kill Ness at 129% without DI. Don't think this won't ever hit you, either. Everytime I somehow land into it. And 129% isn't bad, either. Either way, unlike in Melee, Brawl has it to where a lot of characters can survive almost up to 200%. I mean that is if they're not light characters. Anyway, PK Fire isn't going to trap Samus for long. She may be a heavy character, but she's not like Bowser.

Also, Samus can fire three homing missiles which will most likely distract you and make it possible for Samus to do something else while you deal with three homing missiles. Another thing is that Samus can fire two super missiles to Charge Shot. The super missiles are faster than her beam and so while you're busy putting up your PSI Magnet, the missiles will strike first and then you'll be hit with a Charge Shot.

Another thing is that Samus has zair. She doesn't need to fire anything at you but that. The only thing that can counter her zair is Pit's Mirror Shield. A Samus main without this sort of knowledge is easy to defeat. A Samus main with all of this knowledge can take you out pretty quick. Of course I'm not saying Ness can't ever win against Samus. He can and it doesn't matter what stage you choose, you just have to play smart.

 

[PKNintendo]

Samus isn't horrible at killing. She actually has pretty decent kill moves. Her d-tilt can kill Ness at 129% without DI. Don't think this won't ever hit you, either. Everytime I somehow land into it. And 129% isn't bad, either. Either way, unlike in Melee, Brawl has it to where a lot of characters can survive almost up to 200%. I mean that is if they're not light characters. Anyway, PK Fire isn't going to trap Samus for long. She may be a heavy character, but she's not like Bowser.

Also, Samus can fire three homing missiles which will most likely distract you and make it possible for Samus to do something else while you deal with three homing missiles. Another thing is that Samus can fire two super missiles to Charge Shot. The super missiles are faster than her beam and so while you're busy putting up your PSI Magnet, the missiles will strike first and then you'll be hit with a Charge Shot.

Another thing is that Samus has zair. She doesn't need to fire anything at you but that. The only thing that can counter her zair is Pit's Mirror Shield. A Samus main without this sort of knowledge is easy to defeat. A Samus main with all of this knowledge can take you out pretty quick. Of course I'm not saying Ness can't ever win against Samus. He can and it doesn't matter what stage you choose, you just have to play smart.

Fresh downsmash kills Ness at 134% with DI. The others kill at 140%, 150% and so on.
Having one killer is really limiting. I know, her charge beam won't kill well, and I know her Fsmash to kill well. I can expect the dtilt quite easily.
Why does everyone think that Samus will DI out of PKF easily?

The super missiles are faster than her beam and so while you're busy putting up your PSI Magnet, the missiles will strike first and then you'll be hit with a Charge Shot.

PKF will lead into a bat on Samus, see what I did there? Anyway, I won't be putting up psi shields 24/7 on Samus. Only when the oppurnity strikes, and you can counter-attack with psi magnet lag cancel. Zair is a good approach for Samus, and besides her missile, she little eles going for her.

 

[NessOnett]

Okay, after seeing a lot of responses, I have noticed people forgetting one very vital thing. The BAT! Okay, we know that Spamus fires Missiles, she fires a charge shot too. She will use these in combination to try and hit you. You can n-air missiles and Psi-M the charge shot, but If she times it right she can easily hit with both. Why not REFLECT them instead of absorbing? Ness' bat is so much easier to reflect with than in melee. If a Samus tries to simul-hit you, knock em back at her. She will scramble to gtfo of the way as she has no good way of dealing with multiple projectiles. This leaves prime opportunity for a z-air free approach. After a bit of this your enemy Samus will truly think twice about anything except her z-air.

 

[Uffe]

Fresh downsmash kills Ness at 134% with DI. The others kill at 140%, 150% and so on.
Having one killer is really limiting. I know, her charge beam won't kill well, and I know her Fsmash to kill well. I can expect the dtilt quite easily.
Why does everyone think that Samus will DI out of PKF easily?

The super missiles are faster than her beam and so while you're busy putting up your PSI Magnet, the missiles will strike first and then you'll be hit with a Charge Shot.

PKF will lead into a bat on Samus, see what I did there? Anyway, I won't be putting up psi shields 24/7 on Samus. Only when the oppurnity strikes, and you can counter-attack with psi magnet lag cancel. Zair is a good approach for Samus, and besides her missile, she little eles going for her.

Actually she has more kill moves. The Charge Shot can kill Ness at 110% without DI. Her d-tilt can kill Ness at 129% without DI. Also, PK Fire isn't that hard to escape from. I don't know why a lot of Ness players think that it's impossible to get out of. If you never fight Ness then yeah, I can see PK Fire being an issue. Also, you can try to use PK Fire > Bat, don't think this is foolproof because it isn't. Ness' PSI Magnet is totally useless if all Samus is going to do is attack without her Charge Shot.

Now approach Samus and let's see how well Ness does. Once you get close to Samus, she's just going to knock you back and probably continue to use her projetile. Even if she doesn't, Samus can still be a threat when you're close to her. Her f-smashes and d-smashes come out very quick. Another thing if she wants to get away she can drop her bombs to space herself. You can grab, yes, but again with Samus' projectile. Once you're at a distance, that's all Samus has to do. Also, try doing a match up without DI. Because DI doesn't tell you how much the character can originally survive. All that is saying is how long YOU can survive. At 134% without DI, Ness still lives. Ness walking or running at Samus can die at 130% from her d-smash.

I don't know about you, but I've fought some really good Samus mains and one of them lives with me and often times they're the ones who end up winning.

 

[PKNintendo]

Actually she has more kill moves. The Charge Shot can kill Ness at 110% without DI. Her d-tilt can kill Ness at 129% without DI. Also, PK Fire isn't that hard to escape from. I don't know why a lot of Ness players think that it's impossible to get out of. If you never fight Ness then yeah, I can see PK Fire being an issue. Also, you can try to use PK Fire > Bat, don't think this is foolproof because it isn't. Ness' PSI Magnet is totally useless if all Samus is going to do is attack without her Charge Shot.

Now approach Samus and let's see how well Ness does. Once you get close to Samus, she's just going to knock you back and probably continue to use her projetile. Even if she doesn't, Samus can still be a threat when you're close to her. Her f-smashes and d-smashes come out very quick. Another thing if she wants to get away she can drop her bombs to space herself. You can grab, yes, but again with Samus' projectile. Once you're at a distance, that's all Samus has to do. Also, try doing a match up without DI. Because DI doesn't tell you how much the character can originally survive. All that is saying is how long YOU can survive. At 134% without DI, Ness still lives. Ness walking or running at Samus can die at 130% from her d-smash.

I don't know about you, but I've fought some really good Samus mains and one of them lives with me and often times they're the ones who end up winning.

I play a good Wario and think the matchup vs Wario is 6-4 for Wario.

 

[Uffe]

I play a good Wario and think the matchup vs Wario is 6-4 for Wario.

But Wario isn't Ness. You can say they're similar, but really they're not because they don't have similar attacks.

@ NessOnett: The bat is slower in Brawl than it was in Melee. Three homing missiles at once, two super missiles with a Charge Shot? I don't think that's really easy to reflect. You're better off nairing or plan dodging.

 

[PKNintendo]

But Wario isn't Ness. You can say they're similar, but really they're not because they don't have similar attacks.

@ NessOnett: The bat is slower in Brawl than it was in Melee. Three homing missiles at once, two super missiles with a Charge Shot? I don't think that's really easy to reflect. You're better off nairing or plan dodging.

No, I mean't that Wario beats out Ness, but people would disagree on that. You have a point, but with DI, Samus kills Ness, really, really late. without DI she kills early but DI she doesn't.

 

[Crystanium]

On other levels, things get easier. Samus is horrible at killing. Her charge missile shouldn't give you much trouble due to psi magnet. And Samus is heavy, so trapping her in PKF shouldn't give you too much trouble.

On the ground, both characters are even. Samus has her missiles while, Ness has PKF.
(with PK jump of course) In the air, Samus shouldn't pose too muchb of a threat. Ness is quite small, so Samus needs to try extra hard to hit the little coackroach.

All an all, this matchup seems to be in Ness' favor.
EXCEPT on Battlefield. I suggest you counterpick asap.

• If by "Charge Missiles," you mean "Super Missiles," then the PSI Magnet doesn't do squat.
• PK Fire isn't a problem for Samus. She's the fourth heaviest character in Brawl, but escaping PK Fire is a breeze. You can say, "Not all people will DI away from PK Fire." Anyone who doesn't is either ignorant of DI, or they're DI'ing wrong.
• If you are going to compare Samus' projectile game to Ness', saying that Samus is "even" with Ness in this regard, or even saying that Samus and Ness are on neutral ground while on the ground, due to projectile game, you're either ignorant, lying, or insane. Samus' projectile game surpasses Ness'. PK what? Then, while talking about Samus and Ness being grounded, you say in parentheses, "PK jump of course." Which is it, then? Not even that works, because Samus can be at a distance, firing away Homing and Super Missiles.
• Ness is short, but he can be z-aired. I can z-air smaller characters than him, like Kirby, Pikachu and Olimar. By the way, Ness being short is irrelevant, since it's not like Samus' Homing, Super, and Charge Shots fly over Ness.
• Way to be bias.

By the way, my twin brother, Uffe, plays a Samus main. I'm that Samus main. You should listen to someone who has had more experience, rather than less experience, or even going to Training Mode to see what works and what doesn't.

 

[PKNintendo]

• If by "Charge Missiles," you mean "Super Missiles," then the PSI Magnet doesn't do squat.
• PK Fire isn't a problem for Samus. She's the fourth heaviest character in Brawl, but escaping PK Fire is a breeze. You can say, "Not all people will DI away from PK Fire." Anyone who doesn't is either ignorant of DI, or they're DI'ing wrong.
• If you are going to compare Samus' projectile game to Ness', saying that Samus is "even" with Ness in this regard, or even saying that Samus and Ness are on neutral ground while on the ground, due to projectile game, you're either ignorant, lying, or insane. Samus' projectile game surpasses Ness'. PK what? Then, while talking about Samus and Ness being grounded, you say in parentheses, "PK jump of course." Which is it, then? Not even that works, because Samus can be at a distance, firing away Homing and Super Missiles.
• Ness is short, but he can be z-aired. I can z-air smaller characters than him, like Kirby, Pikachu and Olimar. By the way, Ness being short is irrelevant, since it's not like Samus' Homing, Super, and Charge Shots fly over Ness.
• Way to be bias.

By the way, my twin brother, Uffe, plays a Samus main. I'm that Samus main. You should listen to someone who has had more experience, rather than less experience, or even going to Training Mode to see what works and what doesn't.

Twin brother? Twins? Feternal or identical?

 

[PKNintendo]

• If by "Charge Missiles," you mean "Super Missiles," then the PSI Magnet doesn't do squat.
• PK Fire isn't a problem for Samus. She's the fourth heaviest character in Brawl, but escaping PK Fire is a breeze. You can say, "Not all people will DI away from PK Fire." Anyone who doesn't is either ignorant of DI, or they're DI'ing wrong.
• If you are going to compare Samus' projectile game to Ness', saying that Samus is "even" with Ness in this regard, or even saying that Samus and Ness are on neutral ground while on the ground, due to projectile game, you're either ignorant, lying, or insane. Samus' projectile game surpasses Ness'. PK what? Then, while talking about Samus and Ness being grounded, you say in parentheses, "PK jump of course." Which is it, then? Not even that works, because Samus can be at a distance, firing away Homing and Super Missiles.
• Ness is short, but he can be z-aired. I can z-air smaller characters than him, like Kirby, Pikachu and Olimar. By the way, Ness being short is irrelevant, since it's not like Samus' Homing, Super, and Charge Shots fly over Ness.
• Way to be bias.

By the way, my twin brother, Uffe, plays a Samus main. I'm that Samus main. You should listen to someone who has had more experience, rather than less experience, or even going to Training Mode to see what works and what doesn't.

Gah Missile charge is a pain, but I posted from my own personal experience. But twins, seriously, I don't believe, I've seen Dryn before. Hell you've approved a topic where Ness had a 6-4 on Samus.

I get where you coming from.

 

[Crystanium]

Twin brother? Twins? Feternal or identical?

Indentical.

Gah Missile charge is a pain, but I posted from my own personal experience. But twins, seriously, I don't believe, I've seen Dryn before. Hell you've approved a topic where Ness had a 6-4 on Samus.

I get where you coming from.

Yes, I did approve a topic, but in my experience, the only Ness player to have ever been able to beat me consistently was Earthbound360, which was through online. (You'll note my signature, though, on that matter. I'll even quote Simna ibn Sind about what he said regarding Wi-Fi matches.) However, there have been a few SWF members who replied in ChromePirates' Samus Match-Up List, and they didn't agree with it at all. So, the thread has become questionable on how accurate it really is.

 

[PKNintendo]

Both of you are journeyman. Sweet.

 

[Crystanium]

Both of you are journeyman. Sweet.

I'm a Smash Apprentice, actually. I joined long before my brother. He didn't like how my Samus got all better, so he thought, "You got better because you joined SmashBoards! I'm going to join, too!"