PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[CometStar]

BTW, I find it easier to kill Ike on small stages, although it may seem a bit backwards.

Does anyone else find this true, or is that just me?

I prefer larger stages when fighting Ike that way I have some buffer of not getting Ko'd to early. Although, I guess veiwpoints differ depends on if you gimp his recovery or not. If he's charging his side B to get back jump in front of him and have him hit you. Once this happens he can no longer do anything except fall to his death. If he waits and recovers with UpB merely edgehog him before he jumps just watch out for his massive sword that goes through the stage and could get in your way.

As for in general his jabs and other things that build up damage are things you should watch out for. Nothing is more dangerous than facing Ike than high %. Most of his KO moves can be seen a mile a way so they should be easy to dodge. He is heavier than most characters so a bthrow will won't kill at 120 but instead at 140 depending on how he DI's.

Keep your spacing and only attack to punish his lag as Ike can and will try to outspace your attacks. On platform stages watch out if you're on the platform above him as his sword will reach you their. His Utilt has more horizontal range than you might think to me it seems the hitbox extends somewhat past the tip of his sword.

Don't fight him on the ground as its death waiting to happen so instead juggle him in the air if possible. Most of his aerials have some start up lag (except for his bair) so its easy to punish.

Pillar spiking him is also I another methods Ness could use to gimp him, as if you miss you can normally catch him with your PKT2 right afterwards. Just aim yourself for the ledge and 9 times out of 10 you'll get there before he does or hit him out of his upB. Chances are he'll be trying to get back to ledge as well.

Ike does not have any longrange or projectile attacks so spam your PKTs and PKFs. Annoy him so much that he approaches you and when he tries to get you with dash attack sidestep, punish with a grab or whatever seems plausible.

Its rather easy to punish Ike as alot of his moves have lag afterwards that you can take advantage of. Thats pretty much it, Ike is rather disadvantaged here so you shouldn't face many problems here.

 

[Levitas]

PK fire can be used to stop Ike's side b recovery and kill him, as the pillar will not ignite, and Ike will fall to his death.

 

[Masky]

PK fire can be used to stop Ike's side b recovery and kill him, as the pillar will not ignite, and Ike will fall to his death.

Does PK Thunder work?

 

[CometStar]

PK fire can be used to stop Ike's side b recovery and kill him, as the pillar will not ignite, and Ike will fall to his death.

Interesting, PKF normally does ignite when in touches something other than wall or floor. I wonder what makes this situation so different that it doesn't this time. Maybe both attacks cancel each other.
EDIT:

Does PK Thunder work?

I don't know. Let me test this right now.

EDITEDIT: It just does what PKT normally does when it hits someone. So he can do anything out of it. Although I see this good for stopping him as he won't be able to charge his side B again so the only thing viable for him thats left is DIing and then using UpB. If he panics he might upB or sideB immedialty and kill himself.

 

[Levitas]

Just do Side b, it actually kills him outright.

 

[PKNintendo]

Now updated.

I've seem to have gotton a rebuttle on the Mario boards.
Bull. All Bull.

Mario ***** Ness' recovery. Period. There's no way around that, you have NO third jump. That alone would give Mario the advantage, but let's delve deeper.

Ness' fair is the only aerial worth anything. Mario has double sh aerials that all combo into each other aside from his fair, all lightening quick, and have many uses. Bair's good for spacing, Dair and Nair for priority, and all are good combo starters. If you were going to attack something, it definitely shouldnt have been Mario's aerial game.

His groundgame > Ness' as well. MUCH faster smashes aside from Ness' Fsmash, which comes out as quick as our Dsmash or reverse Usmash. More KO power with and Up-angled Fsmash. Excellent Jab game that ***** Ness, double SH aerials, cape for your PK fire/thunder, and can actually combo moves into each other. Utilt chains, Uair chains, Jab-Dsmash all work on Ness without fail.

Mario's edgeguarding on Ness >>>>> Ness' edgeguarding on Mario. Please don't try to argue against this, you'll just seem silly. Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.

The ONLY thing I'd give Ness in this matchup is approach because for his Fair, which can be shieldgrabbed either way.

7:3 Mario's favor.

Edit: Just because you have your DownB to make a fireball approach less useful, don't think that it won't happen. If you recover that percent, you still have lag after taking down the magnet, which I, for one, would abuse the hell out of.

Do your research dude, I guarantee the only Mario you've played was one of these scrubs runnin around here. Play a good one.

Discuss.

 

[RixMaadi]

Umm, just a quick response about Mario gimping Ness' recovery. I'm not a Mario main, but I'm still a decent player with him and my friend has a skilled Ness and Lucas.

I noticed that F.L.U.D.D. really does mess him up while recovering. The water destroys the PK thunder, or it usually pushes Ness off course. So once he gets knocked off, unless he can make it back with his second jump, it's usually an easy gimp for Mario.

I'm not really too in depth with who has the better ground game and who has the better air game. Just telling you how it was usually easy for me to gimp him with F.L.U.D.D. from my experience.

 

[PKNintendo]

Umm, just a quick response about Mario gimping Ness' recovery. I'm not a Mario main, but I'm still a decent player with him and my friend has a skilled Ness and Lucas.

I noticed that F.L.U.D.D. really does mess him up while recovering. The water destroys the PK thunder, or it usually pushes Ness off course. So once he gets knocked off, unless he can make it back with his second jump, it's usually an easy gimp for Mario.

I'm not really too in depth with who has the better ground game and who has the better air game. Just telling you how it was usually easy for me to gimp him with F.L.U.D.D. from my experience.

I suppose so. But Mario needs to be close and personal to gimp PKT. If you recover next to the stage, then maybe you can get screwed but your not. Double jumping usually gets you back on the stage too. (Ness has a sick double jump)

 

[PKNintendo]

Umm, just a quick response about Mario gimping Ness' recovery. I'm not a Mario main, but I'm still a decent player with him and my friend has a skilled Ness and Lucas.

I noticed that F.L.U.D.D. really does mess him up while recovering. The water destroys the PK thunder, or it usually pushes Ness off course. So once he gets knocked off, unless he can make it back with his second jump, it's usually an easy gimp for Mario.

I'm not really too in depth with who has the better ground game and who has the better air game. Just telling you how it was usually easy for me to gimp him with F.L.U.D.D. from my experience.

I suppose so. But Mario needs to be close and personal to gimp PKT. If you recover next to the stage, then maybe you can get screwed but your not. Double jumping usually gets you back on the stage too. (Ness has a sick double jump)

 

[SlipperyNess]

I agree largely with the mario response. Mario has a much better air game than you gave him credit, he's my secondary because I love keeping people above me. However, I believe they are underestimating Ness' air game as well, his fair pressure really sets up the use for all his other aerials. Also, he's a small target for Mario's bair and nair. We'll just ignore the fair. Mario's Upair and dair are easy to hit anyone with, which is dangerous.

Ness's bair and nair are very similar to mario's in a lot of ways, his bair a little slower but better for killing, while marios is a little faster and better for comboing (although we all know Ness's is a great combo move too) Mario doesn't have an aerial for knocking the opponent directly up. Which isn't that important because he has his upair, which is awesome for combos.

As for ground, I think they underestimated the uses of our yoyo and the fact that they wont see us on the ground a whole lot anyway.

Let's see, they trashed our pkt and pkf because they have a cape...I don't think so. Let's see them cape a pkt hitting them in the feet or head. For that matter, lets see them cape a pkf to the feet or head....well, I suppose we can give him the pkf to the feet, if its from the ground. I think he underestimated those moves, just as much as we underestimated his ground game.

Also, they forgot that you can lag cancel that psi magnet when considering the fireball approach.

I'm guessing as much as we haven't seen many good Marios they haven't seen any good Nesses. And I think the matchup comes down to even aerial game, even ground game, uneven recovery game.

I'm no where near experienced enough with the matchup to give a good ratio, but I'm guessing Mario is a little ahead...because of the recovery problems Ness has against him.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Now updated.

I've seem to have gotton a rebuttle on the Mario boards.
Bull. All Bull.

Mario ***** Ness' recovery. Period. There's no way around that, you have NO third jump. That alone would give Mario the advantage, but let's delve deeper.

Ness' fair is the only aerial worth anything. Mario has double sh aerials that all combo into each other aside from his fair, all lightening quick, and have many uses. Bair's good for spacing, Dair and Nair for priority, and all are good combo starters. If you were going to attack something, it definitely shouldnt have been Mario's aerial game.

His groundgame > Ness' as well. MUCH faster smashes aside from Ness' Fsmash, which comes out as quick as our Dsmash or reverse Usmash. More KO power with and Up-angled Fsmash. Excellent Jab game that ***** Ness, double SH aerials, cape for your PK fire/thunder, and can actually combo moves into each other. Utilt chains, Uair chains, Jab-Dsmash all work on Ness without fail.

Mario's edgeguarding on Ness >>>>> Ness' edgeguarding on Mario. Please don't try to argue against this, you'll just seem silly. Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.

The ONLY thing I'd give Ness in this matchup is approach because for his Fair, which can be shieldgrabbed either way.

7:3 Mario's favor.

Edit: Just because you have your DownB to make a fireball approach less useful, don't think that it won't happen. If you recover that percent, you still have lag after taking down the magnet, which I, for one, would abuse the hell out of.

Do your research dude, I guarantee the only Mario you've played was one of these scrubs runnin around here. Play a good one.

Discuss.

I lol'd. :')
I think the only things right in this is the jab part (Mario has a good jab) and the FLUDD buggering up recovery. Not that you'll use PKT unless you REALLY need to, because his double jump is too good.
And LOL at saying Fair's his only good aerial.

 

[Brinzy]

The most I'll go with is 6:4 for Mario, but I'm gonna play some Marios before I come to a conclusion on this. That person didn't sound like he knew anything about Ness aside from fair.

 

[Levitas]

Ditto what Successor said. Mario dudes may have the cape on ness, which may actually work in this game (unlike melee), but him saying the ness fair was his only aerial worth anything told me that he's never played a Ness that did anything worthwhile in the air.

we might not end up with a consensus on the number today.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Yeah, recovering is a huge pain against Mario. But personally, I think Ness's down air really messes up everything Mario does on the ground, and all his defenses. He doesn't seem to have an answer against down air as an approach. ESPECIALLY if you mix up down air and forward air approaches.

 

[PKNintendo]

Don't forget Mario's killing problem. I guess this will go on for a few days...

 

[Levitas]

It doesn't need to. We can gather info for it for a while as we move on to different characters and come back to mario with more information later.

 

[Matador]

Nice job Quoting me and making me seem like the bad guy PKNintendo. Seriously, Kudos.

I apologize if my post seemed like I was attacking Ness, beacuse that's what it really was. I only made my post seem that way because he came to the Mario boards and attacked Mario's aerial, ground, and edgeguarding game first. He just posted the retaliation.

I do still believe that it's 7:3 Mario's favor because of the way he limits Ness' projectiles and recovery like no other character can. Knocking Ness off the stage doesn't mean an instant KO of course, but it can be very difficult to recover safely if Mario's fludd is charge (which it should be at all times during this matchup).

PKNintendo, Mario doesn't have a problem scoring KOs. He may have had that problem in melee, but in Brawl he can KO at 100% with an up-angled Fsmash (without the sweetspot) and around 120% with an Usmash. Not to mention Mario can reliably edgeguard all but about 4 characters on the roster. Most of his KO options can be followed by a jab or fireball. Nair is also a reliable KO move at around 120%.

 

[PKNintendo]

Nice job Quoting me and making me seem like the bad guy PKNintendo. Seriously, Kudos.

I apologize if my post seemed like I was attacking Ness, beacuse that's what it really was. I only made my post seem that way because he came to the Mario boards and attacked Mario's aerial, ground, and edgeguarding game first. He just posted the retaliation.

I do still believe that it's 7:3 Mario's favor because of the way he limits Ness' projectiles and recovery like no other character can. Knocking Ness off the stage doesn't mean an instant KO of course, but it can be very difficult to recover safely if Mario's fludd is charge (which it should be at all times during this matchup).

PKNintendo, Mario doesn't have a problem scoring KOs. He may have had that problem in melee, but in Brawl he can KO at 100% with an up-angled Fsmash (without the sweetspot) and around 120% with an Usmash. Not to mention Mario can reliably edgeguard all but about 4 characters on the roster. Most of his KO options can be followed by a jab or fireball. Nair is also a reliable KO move at around 120%.

You did sound like the bad guy? HEY, how did you even find this board???
Wow, someone has never played melee. Mario actually was stronger in Melee than Brawl.
Tested.
Fsmash (buffed in Brawl)
Upsmash(nerfed, it kills considerably less)
Downsmash(nerfed in kill power)

You talk like Mario is Peach incarnate? Im pretty sure Mario can't edge guard all but 4 characters. Those are lies. Jabs and firenalls can be perfect shielded, and his nair DOES NOT kill at 120%. Your thinking Luigi matador. Try again.

I didn't attack the board. I just told the truth.

 

[BoTastic!]

Yeah, recovering is a huge pain against Mario. But personally, I think Ness's down air really messes up everything Mario does on the ground, and all his defenses. He doesn't seem to have an answer against down air as an approach. ESPECIALLY if you mix up down air and forward air approaches.

i thought u knew better man lol. Mario's recovery isn't bad. Its average. The physics buffed his recovery.

 

[PKNintendo]

To be honest it did, but it's definetely not average. Both horizontal and vertical distance are poor. I mean, A few good bair's from Peach/Ness could stand on the ledge and edge hog Mario.

Further testings indicate that Mario's Up B distance is equal to Ness.

 

[Matador]

You did sound like the bad guy? HEY, how did you even find this board???

I...looked?

Wow, someone has never played melee. Mario actually was stronger in Melee than Brawl.
Tested.
Fsmash (buffed in Brawl)
Upsmash(nerfed, it kills considerably less)
Downsmash(nerfed in kill power)

You forget that Fsmash is his main kill move and was buffed in every way. It doesn't need to be sweet spotted to kill anymore. When it does sweetspot, it has excellent kill power, especially up-angled.

Usmash has less kill power, but wasn't a good kill move in Melee because of its lack of priority and range. It now has much more priority (goes through MK's Tornado if on the right hitboxes), much more range, and kills at only about 20% more. Pros outweigh the Cons here. It's actually a good kill move and doesn't require any setups, especially reversed and/or not stale.

Dsmash was never a kill move. It's solely for racking up damage.

Mario's kill power was a serious problem in Melee. Any Mario main will tell you it is no longer a problem.

You talk like Mario is Peach incarnate? Im pretty sure Mario can't edge guard all but 4 characters. Those are lies. Jabs and firenalls can be perfect shielded, and his nair DOES NOT kill at 120%. Your thinking Luigi matador. Try again.

Mario can't edgeguard MK, Sonic, G&W, and Snake. That's it. Name someone and I'll tell you how he can edgeguard them, and prolly provide a vid. (Note that these are just the harder characters to edgeguard, but is still possible aside from G&W).

Everything can be perfect shielded, what's your point? It's not like you'll never get hit by a jab or fireball.

Nair kills at around 120% on Ness, especially near the edge. Around meaning give or take a few %.

I didn't attack the board. I just told the truth.

Don't get coy with me.

It's the truth, why? Because you say so? You practically said he's better in every way and that none of Mario's tricks will work on him but "think of the positives", which you didn't list.

 

[PKNintendo]

I...looked?
You forget that Fsmash is his main kill move and was buffed in every way. It doesn't need to be sweet spotted to kill anymore. When it does sweetspot, it has excellent kill power, especially up-angled.

Usmash has less kill power, but wasn't a good kill move in Melee because of its lack of priority and range. It now has much more priority (goes through MK's Tornado if on the right hitboxes), much more range, and kills at only about 20% more. Pros outweigh the Cons here. It's actually a good kill move and doesn't require any setups, especially reversed and/or not stale.

Dsmash was never a kill move. It's solely for racking up damage.

Mario's kill power was a serious problem in Melee. Any Mario main will tell you it is no longer a problem.

Mario can't edgeguard MK, Sonic, G&W, and Snake. That's it. Name someone and I'll tell you how he can edgeguard them, and prolly provide a vid. (Note that these are just the harder characters to edgeguard, but is still possible aside from G&W).

Everything can be perfect shielded, what's your point? It's not like you'll never get hit by a jab or fireball.

Nair kills at around 120% on Ness, especially near the edge. Around meaning give or take a few %.


Don't get coy with me.

It's the truth, why? Because you say so? You practically said he's better in every way and that none of Mario's tricks will work on him but "think of the positives", which you didn't list.

Coy? Im telling the truth. I didn't attack your board.

Mario can't edge guard ALOT more characters than just those four. Lucas has his zap jumping, just of the top of my head. And Snake is easy to edge guard. His cypher is predictable. If he's grabbed out of his cypher, he can't use it again. Mario bair ***** him well.

 

[BoTastic!]

To be honest it did, but it's definetely not average. Both horizontal and vertical distance are poor. I mean, A few good bair's from Peach/Ness could stand on the ledge and edge hog Mario.

Further testings indicate that Mario's Up B distance is equal to Ness.

U really are uneducated are u?

-Mario can be almost directly under the stage and still make it back up.
-Mario can cape stall to stall his aerial movement.
-Mario can use cape to prevent edgeguarders from projectile spamming him.
-Mario can use fireballs to protect him self from being completely gimped.
-Up B's Horizontal length has been buffed along with super armor on first frames with high priority.

You did sound like the bad guy? HEY, how did you even find this board???
Wow, someone has never played melee. Mario actually was stronger in Melee than Brawl.
Tested.
Fsmash (buffed in Brawl)
Upsmash(nerfed, it kills considerably less)
Downsmash(nerfed in kill power)

You talk like Mario is Peach incarnate? Im pretty sure Mario can't edge guard all but 4 characters. Those are lies. Jabs and firenalls can be perfect shielded, and his nair DOES NOT kill at 120%. Your thinking Luigi matador. Try again.

well i see ur terrible when it comes to comparing a character to their previous form.

U only compared his smashes woopty doo. But ur wrong about his Usmash >_>

-Usmash has more range, priority, and a bigger hitbox than before. so it got a tad weaker... so what.. I say it got buffed

-Mario's Bair has more priority and range than before.
-Mario's Dair has more priority and shares hitboxes mid section and below his body.
-2 Uairs a sh.. which is easy to pull off on ness.
-Fludd>>>Mario Tornado from melee
-More uses for Cape because of the physics and better edgeguarding possibilities.


The problems i see with Mario are his use of set ups to kill and lack of range. (which his range got buffed from melee)

Actually don't get me wrong but ur the one that doesn't know anything...

anyway.. Im going with 6:4 in Mario's favor.. It could be even tho. But im going with6:4

 

[Levitas]

Matador, I don't think 7:3 does ness justice. The fact that mario has a decent recovery in this game isn't my concern so much as that Ness doesn't usually need to edgeguard. At 130, he's got the kill in one of a few ways: bthrow, nair, uair or bair.

Ness has a number of good approach options, many of which are in the air. Ness's priority is beastly in the air, too. He can get you in the air with a usmash, dash attack, uthrow, WoP Nair, WoP bair, Dair (which autocancels), and none of those leave him significantly vulnerable.

Ness's recovery is sub-par, but will get him back decently well through the use of just the DJ and strategic airdodging, since his jump is quite large.

As far as edgeguarding, if Ness gets to you before you up b, the dair or Nair that follows will likely kill you.

I feel obligated to say that I need to play against a skilled mario before I make any more claims, because it's the obligation of the people arguing to be certain that what they're saying is correct.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Mario has no effective way to deal with Ness' f-air.

 

[BoTastic!]

Mario has no effective way to deal with Ness' f-air.

Ok what makes Mario so different from everyone else with the ability to sheild grab a sh aerial?

I have to agree Ness's Fair is good but its not immpossible to get around.

 

[PKNintendo]

U really are uneducated are u?

-Mario can be almost directly under the stage and still make it back up.
-Mario can cape stall to stall his aerial movement.
-Mario can use cape to prevent edgeguarders from projectile spamming him.
-Mario can use fireballs to protect him self from being completely gimped.
-Up B's Horizontal length has been buffed along with super armor on first frames with high priority.




well i see ur terrible when it comes to comparing a character to their previous form.

U only compared his smashes woopty doo. But ur wrong about his Usmash >_>

-Usmash has more range, priority, and a bigger hitbox than before. so it got a tad weaker... so what.. I say it got buffed

-Mario's Bair has more priority and range than before.
-Mario's Dair has more priority and shares hitboxes mid section and below his body.
-2 Uairs a sh.. which is easy to pull off on ness.
-Fludd>>>Mario Tornado from melee
-More uses for Cape because of the physics and better edgeguarding possibilities.


The problems i see with Mario are his use of set ups to kill and lack of range. (which his range got buffed from melee)

Actually don't get me wrong but ur the one that doesn't know anything...

anyway.. Im going with 6:4 in Mario's favor.. It could be even tho. But im going with6:4

I'm uneducated? Learn to spell buddy. Then you can call me uneducated.

-Mario can be almost directly under the stage and still make it back up.
-Mario can cape stall to stall his aerial movement.
-Mario can use cape to prevent edgeguarders from projectile spamming him.
-Mario can use fireballs to protect him self from being completely gimped.
-Up B's Horizontal length has been buffed along with super armor on first frames with high priority.

1. How the hell does Mario do that?
2. Cape stall isn't the best stall in the world. I find the stall from Ness' PKT2 much better.
3. Yes, at an upward area. But when's slightly below the stage, he's screwed.
4. How so?
5. true.


U only compared his smashes woopty doo. But ur wrong about his Usmash >_>

-Usmash has more range, priority, and a bigger hitbox than before. so it got a tad weaker... so what.. I say it got buffed

-Mario's Bair has more priority and range than before.
-Mario's Dair has more priority and shares hitboxes mid section and below his body.
-2 Uairs a sh.. which is easy to pull off on ness.
-Fludd>>>Mario Tornado from melee
-More uses for Cape because of the physics and better edgeguarding possibilities.


Man, you really do have horrible spelling and grammar.

Upsmash, has LESS priority, bigger hitbox, and is alot weaker. It lost Mario invincibility frame from Melee.

Also what you've posted is pointless.

2 Uairs in a sh is easy to pull of on Mario.
2 Nairs in a sh is easy to pull of on Mario.
2 Fair in a sh is easy to pull of on Mario.
2 bair in a sh is easy to pull of on Mario.

You need to play as other characters besides Mario.

 

[BoTastic!]

lol excuse me for My spelling then. Was typing too fast. XD

I actually play with other characters other than Mario... Look at my sig...

less priority? It stops Mk's tornado... i also forgot to add that It has better Juggling potential. A reverse Usmash even has an even larger hitbox from behind and comes out faster.

1. How the hell does Mario do that?

Mario can fast fall a Dair from the ledge and still make it back on. Did this accidently a few times

2. Cape stall isn't the best stall in the world. I find the stall from Ness' PKT2 much better.

Go scavenger hunting and find where i said that. I said he can stall with cape. Didn't say it was the best.

3. Yes, at an upward area. But when's slightly below the stage, he's screwed.

Not really. The same trick isn't gonna keep working on a smart player

4. How so?

Fireballs actually stun you... and stop your movements.

 

[PKNintendo]

lol excuse me for My spelling then. Was typing too fast. XD

I actually play with other characters other than Mario... Look at my sig...

less priority? It stops Mk's tornado... i also forgot to add that It has better Juggling potential. A reverse Usmash even has an even larger hitbox from behind and comes out faster.

So? I could have Ike in my sig, and I would still not main him. Ness can drop down the ledge, dair spike, and go back on the ledge. Ness can also use PKF to do the same thing.

Fireballs can be absorbed by Ness so.

 

[PKNintendo]

Anyway sorry for the double post, but Ness has been pushed back.

I think Ness actually has an advantage on Mario. His approach get's absorbed by psi magnet. Edgeguarding
Ness isn't perfect. Ever heard of PKT tailwhipping. Well, unless your name is Peach, and you can float, Mario will get trapped in it alot if tries to gimp Ness. Im not a fool, I would rarely use Ness recovery near Mario (especially with fludd) charged. And with PKT mindgames, leading into PKT2 and landing on Mario (who lags after his recovery) Backthrow, and bair for easy kills, Fairs cancels out Mario aerial and ground moves.

(Mario has overall bad priority)

Really, I need more Ness support. Im really strong on this matchup.

 

[_clinton]

"Ok what makes Mario so different from everyone else with the ability to sheild grab a sh aerial?

You can change the location of the fAir's hit box...anyway

Mario is 6:4 with Ness having the + IMO

 

[BoTastic!]

So? I could have Ike in my sig, and I would still not main him.

Now that' just be dumb.. >_>

I know this isn't relevent to the thread but i wanna prove you wrong..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSMX9tSpN30&feature=PlayList&p=89EECEF52CE8959D&index=41 My Peach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeTu_j7iCR0&feature=PlayList&p=89EECEF52CE8959D&index=46 My rob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-HswD5rraE&feature=PlayList&p=89EECEF52CE8959D&index=33 My Kirby

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wc6wt_Y_Do&feature=PlayList&p=89EECEF52CE8959D&index=19 My Ike

so.. there u go..

Ness can drop down the ledge, dair spike, and go back on the ledge. Ness can also use PKF to do the same thing.

I thought we were talking about Mario's recovery.

Fireballs can be absorbed by Ness so.

Whats the point of absorbing Fireballs when you're trying to edgeguard him?

Fireballs aren't Mario's only approach Pknintendo. Even if he absorbs them, he is suseptible to another attack because of post lag from Ness's DownB

 

[Takeshi245]

Mario can protect himself from getting completely gimped by shooting fireballs as he descends and air-dodging. Also, can't Mario just do dair after shielding Ness's bair for a counterattack? Just curious. Also, PK Nintendo, BO X7 never said Mario's cape stall was the best. Looks like a strawman argument. Also, I agree with BO X7 being 6:4 in Mario's advantage due to both Matador's and BO X7's reasons.

 

[_clinton]

Edit: Just because you have your DownB to make a fireball approach less useful, don't think that it won't happen. If you recover that percent, you still have lag after taking down the magnet, which I, for one, would abuse the hell out of.

Discuss.

Ever heard of Magnet cancel?

When you absorb something PK Magnet acts like a shield for a second or so...you can side step, jump, or roll

And Ness' nAir is perfect for dealing with anyone who comes close to him...after jumping out of shield/magnet you can use nAir right away...

hell even if Mario is on you a nAir can stop that...

Ness' defense game is pretty good...

 

[Takeshi245]

Ever heard of Magnet cancel?

When you absorb something PK Magnet acts like a shield for a second or so...you can side step, jump, or roll

And Ness' nAir is perfect for dealing with anyone who comes close to him...after jumping out of shield/magnet you can use nAir right away...

hell even if Mario is on you a nAir can stop that...

Ness' defense game is pretty good...

If nair is expected, Mario can just wait for Nair to come out and then U-smash him if Ness is close enough. There's also bair to backwards uair if he's close enough to Ness but distant enough not to get hit by nair as well. PK Magnet Cancel does help Ness indeed, though. Didn't think he could that.

 

[Matador]

PKNintendo, I'm done arguing with you. Only about half of the evidence you've brought forward is factual, the rest is complete bull****. I'm biased, I see that. The difference between you and I, however is that you're not even trying to see the matchup objectively. Then you just go on to try and argue KO power for Mario in Melee in comparison to Brawl against 2 people who mained mario the entire 7 years the game was popular. It was already decided between the other Mario mains that his KO power was buffed, but you seem persistent in trying to turn this moldy apple into an orange. You practically claim to know more about him than we do.

Hell, why are we even arguing between melee and Brawl? They're 2 different games with 2 different engines and have nothing to do with the argument at hand.

Unless you can provide factual data to support your idea on why 7:3 isn't reasonable, then don't spout off anymore of this nonsense. It just makes you look silly.

Ness=Mario.

5-5.

Ness has a better aerial game overall, better approach, and a way to null Mario's approach. (psi magnet)
PK jump is useful on Mario, and spiking Mario is easy due to his bad recovery. Mario's recovery is PK flashable.

On the ground, they're equal, Ness winning out with his better approach and multiple PK Fire techs. Ness tilts outrange and outprioritize Mario's (Mario has bad priority) his smashes are average at best.

Mario can edge guard Ness with his bair and fludd, but thats pretty much it.
Ness has an insane double jump+air movement. His recovery trumps Mario's every time, and the advantage seems to be on Ness IMO. But you can't forget Mario's positives.
Martio will need to try harder to have an advantage on Ness (cookie for reference)

Completely one-sided posts like these are what I'm referring to.

Matador, I don't think 7:3 does ness justice. The fact that mario has a decent recovery in this game isn't my concern so much as that Ness doesn't usually need to edgeguard. At 130, he's got the kill in one of a few ways: bthrow, nair, uair or bair.

I agree, he does have more KO options than Mario, so he won't really need to edgeguard as much as Mario would.Up-angled Fsmash still > any of Ness' KO options at lower % (around 100%)

Ness has a number of good approach options, many of which are in the air. Ness's priority is beastly in the air, too. He can get you in the air with a usmash, dash attack, uthrow, WoP Nair, WoP bair, Dair (which autocancels), and none of those leave him significantly vulnerable.

Fireball would dampen some of these approaches except for the Fair. Ness can be more agressive than Mario with his approach because of his wacky hitboxes, so Mario has to play a sort of campy game till he creates an opening here. Shieldgrabbing has always worked nicely whenever trying to approach Ness safely for me.

Of course, same works against Mario's approaches since they're very similar. The difference I see is Mario has his cape to kill any projectile approaches, forcing these shieldgrab-able ones.

Ness's recovery is sub-par, but will get him back decently well through the use of just the DJ and strategic airdodging, since his jump is quite large.

This is the variable here that'd keep Ness alive. If the Mario doesn't hinder the DJ in any way during the recovery, he may not get the gimp. If the Ness were knocked too far initially, Fludd would probably still work to cap off the stock.

As far as edgeguarding, if Ness gets to you before you up b, the dair or Nair that follows will likely kill you.

I figure fireballs and cape would hinder this. Mario can also dish out a few aerials of his own as he returns with little risk of killing his recovery because of the low ending lag.

I feel obligated to say that I need to play against a skilled mario before I make any more claims, because it's the obligation of the people arguing to be certain that what they're saying is correct.

And I still need to play a skilled Ness. There's still too much room for error here since neither character is widely played so the matchup doesn't come up too frequently. All of this is speculation. On paper, I believe that 7:3 is about accurate. If a good Ness comes and ***** my ****, however, I'd be inclined to change it. I just don't see that happening tho.

 

[PKNintendo]

PKNintendo, I'm done arguing with you. Only about half of the evidence you've brought forward is factual, the rest is complete bull****. I'm biased, I see that. The difference between you and I, however is that you're not even trying to see the matchup objectively. Then you just go on to try and argue KO power for Mario in Melee in comparison to Brawl against 2 people who mained mario the entire 7 years the game was popular. It was already decided between the other Mario mains that his KO power was buffed, but you seem persistent in trying to turn this moldy apple into an orange. You practically claim to know more about him than we do.

Hell, why are we even arguing between melee and Brawl? They're 2 different games with 2 different engines and have nothing to do with the argument at hand.

Unless you can provide factual data to support your idea on why 7:3 isn't reasonable, then don't spout off anymore of this nonsense. It just makes you look silly.

I agree, he does have more KO options than Mario, so he won't really need to edgeguard as much as Mario would.Up-angled Fsmash still > any of Ness' KO options at lower % (around 100%)

Fireball would dampen some of these approaches except for the Fair. Ness can be more agressive than Mario with his approach because of his wacky hitboxes, so Mario has to play a sort of campy game till he creates an opening here. Shieldgrabbing has always worked nicely whenever trying to approach Ness safely for me.

Of course, same works against Mario's approaches since they're very similar. The difference I see is Mario has his cape to kill any projectile approaches, forcing these shieldgrab-able ones.

This is the variable here that'd keep Ness alive. If the Mario doesn't hinder the DJ in any way during the recovery, he may not get the gimp. If the Ness were knocked too far initially, Fludd would probably still work to cap off the stock.

I figure fireballs and cape would hinder this. Mario can also dish out a few aerials of his own as he returns with little risk of killing his recovery because of the low ending lag.

And I still need to play a skilled Ness. There's still too much room for error here since neither character is widely played so the matchup doesn't come up too frequently. All of this is speculation. On paper, I believe that 7:3 is about accurate. If a good Ness comes and ***** my ****, however, I'd be inclined to change it. I just don't see that happening tho.

I've tried to be civil. I have called any names, nor have I perfect evidence on Mario. But neither do you. I've only pointed some factual evidence on Mario being a weaker killer in Brawl. Thats true, but you and your ubbdy take it to the next level. 7-3 is 70%-30%. Thats ridiculous. Do you know how ridiculous that claim is? Your only claim to it being 7-3 is Mario being a good edge guard on Ness.

I while I ago, I've witnessed a Zelda vs Ness argument. Many Ness mainers (including me) have thought that having psi magnet, being able to DI out of Zelda's smashes, and having quicker aerials, made Ness an automatic 7-3 or 6-4 towards Zelda. Turns out the matchup was neutral.

On paper 7-3 against Mario is just ridiculous. An angled Upsmash does not kill at 100%. Now thats bull****, (just tested it vs Ness) Why don't you stop cussing, think rational we could come to a conclusion. But Mario's simple edge guarding tricks won't mean a perfect matchup.

PS: You have anger issues.:embarrass

 

[PKNintendo]

Now updated.

I've seem to have gotton a rebuttle on the Mario boards.
Bull. All Bull.

Mario ***** Ness' recovery. Period. There's no way around that, you have NO third jump. That alone would give Mario the advantage, but let's delve deeper.

Ness' fair is the only aerial worth anything. Mario has double sh aerials that all combo into each other aside from his fair, all lightening quick, and have many uses. Bair's good for spacing, Dair and Nair for priority, and all are good combo starters. If you were going to attack something, it definitely shouldnt have been Mario's aerial game.

His groundgame > Ness' as well. MUCH faster smashes aside from Ness' Fsmash, which comes out as quick as our Dsmash or reverse Usmash. More KO power with and Up-angled Fsmash. Excellent Jab game that ***** Ness, double SH aerials, cape for your PK fire/thunder, and can actually combo moves into each other. Utilt chains, Uair chains, Jab-Dsmash all work on Ness without fail.

Mario's edgeguarding on Ness >>>>> Ness' edgeguarding on Mario. Please don't try to argue against this, you'll just seem silly. Fludd ***** your recovery harder than anyone else on the roster.

The ONLY thing I'd give Ness in this matchup is approach because for his Fair, which can be shieldgrabbed either way.

7:3 Mario's favor.

Edit: Just because you have your DownB to make a fireball approach less useful, don't think that it won't happen. If you recover that percent, you still have lag after taking down the magnet, which I, for one, would abuse the hell out of.

Do your research dude, I guarantee the only Mario you've played was one of these scrubs runnin around here. Play a good one.

Discuss.

You call my argument one-sided when you post crap like that? I admit, mine was rushed, but you must agree, your's is pretty terrible. Mario's ground game is average (like Ness')

MUCH faster smashes? lol.
***** his recovery is a bit much. Fair is the only aerial worth anything. LOL. You may play Mario 24/7, but you surely know nothing about other characters. Ness has some of the best aerials in the game.
Ness Nair, bair, uair and dair all trump Mario's in terms of effectiveness. I've seen Mario's aerials, they're not that impressive.

 

[NessOnett]

As apparently one of the few Ness mains who has played a LOT of (good) opposing Marios, I feel inclined to post at least something. Fludd isn't as useful for gimping Ness as you give it credit for. Come in low and you can usually get by it with no difficulty. After my initial run-ins, my enemies stopped trying it because it stopped working...and found that Mario's aerials were better options. Ness does have a superior approach in most cases, with his f-air outprioritizing everything and PKJumps limiting cape defences. But that isn't to say Mario has no options...and what has is actually quite good if spaced properly. His u-tilt can rack up decent damage and combo into more against Ness at low percents, but is by no means game-breaking. Ness easily wins out against Mario as far as the edgeguarding game is concerned though. With his spike, PK mindgames, and f-air, he can usually gimp Mario. Mario has definite speed advantage on the ground, at least as far as killing moves are concerned. Best bet for the plumber is to play defensively and hope to punish mistakes. On paper it looks like Ness has the better game all around, but in the real world is it not so easy. Best bet for me would put it about 55-45 in Ness' favor. could also go another 5 either way to a 50-50 or 60-40.

 

[PKNintendo]

As apparently one of the few Ness mains who has played a LOT of (good) opposing Marios, I feel inclined to post at least something. Fludd isn't as useful for gimping Ness as you give it credit for. Come in low and you can usually get by it with no difficulty. After my initial run-ins, my enemies stopped trying it because it stopped working...and found that Mario's aerials were better options. Ness does have a superior approach in most cases, with his f-air outprioritizing everything and PKJumps limiting cape defences. But that isn't to say Mario has no options...and what has is actually quite good if spaced properly. His u-tilt can rack up decent damage and combo into more against Ness at low percents, but is by no means game-breaking. Ness easily wins out against Mario as far as the edgeguarding game is concerned though. With his spike, PK mindgames, and f-air, he can usually gimp Mario. Mario has definite speed advantage on the ground, at least as far as killing moves are concerned. Best bet for the plumber is to play defensively and hope to punish mistakes. On paper it looks like Ness has the better game all around, but in the real world is it not so easy. Best bet for me would put it about 55-45 in Ness' favor. could also go another 5 either way to a 50-50 or 60-40.

This.

Hey NessOnett, where have you been? I haven't seen you in a while.

I m going with 55-45.