Agreed. I'd say Ness vs Samus is 50-50 or Samus having more of an advantage. Ness' b-throw isn't all that great when you're fighting someone who knows how and when to DI. And yes, nair can't always save Ness. Most of the time you're better off just dodging what you can and trying to get to Samus. Sometimes it just gets so frustrating you just want to quit. If anyone's Ness can beat Samus without a problem, then there is something wrong with that Samus or you need to share your info with me on how to defeat Samus like she's nothing. And believe me, I laugh my *** off when I'm fighting a Samus who can't beat me because I've witnessed much greater Samus mains excluding my brother.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
- Thread starter Yink
- Start date
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Rechanged it. I need more from Samus.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
I agree with a 55-45 but fourth heaviest character is bull****. 10 th heaviest character.
It's funny how Wario and G-dorf are heavier than Samus.
Bowser
DK
Snake
King DDD
Charizard
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Wario
Rob
Samus
Bite your tongue Uffe, you need to learn to respect your b-throw...it IS all that great!
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Uffe, you DONT DI the bthrow
Seriosuly, DI up and you die off the roof. DI sideways and nothing happens. DI down and you're asking to die.
I still think Samus is at a slight dis for Ness.
Seriosuly, DI up and you die off the roof. DI sideways and nothing happens. DI down and you're asking to die.
I still think Samus is at a slight dis for Ness.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Can I quote you on that. You did play Dryn did you not?
what he said, keep the 55-45.
But on-topic for today, This appears to be the first matchup that I have a real problem with the proposed numbers. I have faced a lot of good DKs, a LOT of good DKs, and he is one opponent that rarely gives me trouble. It's not to say that I've never lost to Dk, because I have, but opponents who are better than me regularly lose to my Ness by a wide margin as DK. I'll grant you that he will **** you on the ground...so stay OFF the ground. It's very simple. His recovery is one of the easiest to spike/PKFlash, and you said yourself how prone he is to fire-locks. F'air will crush his approaches, and if he should spot-dodge then your close-up titls will beat his in speed.(U-tilt chains will PISS HIM OFF!). Slow recovery from his own attacks makes him more susceptible to PKT/2 mindgames. I'd say the match is at the very least slightly in Ness favor, but I'd put my money on a little more, like maybe 60-40?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
HELL NO! I was considering 45-55 for DK. There's no way in hell Ness will ever have the advantage.
Center stage, 121% KO's Samus without DI. Edge of the stage still KO's Samus at 121% without DI. My brother was able to DI both of those and survive. I've done, another Ness main has done this, a Falcon main has done this, not exactly at 121%, but to the point where it was lethal enough to kill and they still survived because of DI.
Yeah, I usually get ***** by the ape.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
According to SmashWiki, Samus is the seventh heaviest character in Brawl. The weight system is labeled under Super Heavy-Weight, Heavy-Weight, Middle-Weight, Light-Weight, and Feather-Weight. Samus is placed under Super Heavy-Weight. According to MrSilver, Samus weighs 1.051. It's funny how Wario is the ninth heaviest character, and Samus is just below Ganondorf.
Regarding Samus, the only two persons I have come across here who play as Samus and have been unbiased in their assessment are Uffe and PKSkyler. Seriously, if you guys want to get an accurate picture for each character, you'll do better at extending the discussion to a week like most Match-Up Lists do. What is more, you would be wise to go to the Character Chat and look for the person you are discussing about and ask the people who actually main said character.
Now, to the discussion of today, my third alternative is Donkey Kong, preferably the green color. Donkey Kong is a powerhouse when it comes to strength. He might not be as strong as Ike, but his attacks still possess KO potential. He can KO with his u-air, b-air, u-smash, f-smash, d-smash and Giant Punch. Believe it or not, Donkey Kong is also fast for his size, and he can space himself with attacks like his f-tilt and d-tilt. What is more, with the Giant Punch, Donkey Kong comes with a super-armor.
One problem with Donkey Kong is his recovery. It is horizontal, which makes it difficult for him to safely return. If anyone wants anymore information about Donkey Kong, ask the people who main Donkey Kong in the Character Chat. My experience is limited and I haven't learned any advanced techniques or tricks with Donkey Kong. In other words, my Donkey Kong is raw, while those Donkey Kong mainers in the Character Chat likely have been refined.
I read that and I completely disagree. You can approach DK many different ways. For one a Dash attack is a semi good option. You can always approach with an F air if Needed always retreat this. The F air will linger as what can be hit steps back. Don't try to force a Pk fire in. It'll just get shielded. PkT is a semi good option against DK. DK's ability to out range Ness on the ground does not put him at a disadvantage. His B air is effective but you can Shield it if you see it coming. DK has many spike options so be careful be ready to meteor cancel. The Giant punch spot Dodge it! Do not shield it. The shield lag is great. Also because of the Super armor you do not want to try to hit DK before he does it. Other than that play like you normally play even if DK has the Giant punch. Do not fear it but know it can KO you at 70%. DK has good throws but it shouldn't KO you if he overuses them. DK is a great character. His B air is very good for him. A good DK player uses it well. Dodge it as much as you can Try to punish it. That may be hard though.
I would say it's even here. 50 - 50. I say only post on the match up if you have in person experience against the character.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Has anyone asked any Donkey Kong mainer about how well Ness would do against Donkey Kong? For example, you, Ref, say that you have to read your opponent. It's not as simple as it sounds. Furthermore, one combo that can be performed by Donkey Kong is his Forward+B to B. What happens is that Donkey Kong's opponent gets smashed into the ground and gets a nice punch in the face. Really, people, you should take my advice on how you acquire information. Otherwise, your list is going to be bias. Start asking other people here at SWF to get accurate information. I can see why that Mario mainer was angry when he learned of this thread. Please, please, please extend your match-up thread to a week so that you can have more time to learn about your opponents.
Of course it's not simple to dodge the punch you just can't be afraid of it. It takes a while of playing smash to be able to do it. The match up is still even. I also did check the DK match up sticky for some information... A DK player can read you back to see when they can use the punch. The truth is it is a 50-50 match. Reading takes skill so it all boils down to skill.
I do agree this match up discussion should be extended to a week for each character. I also believe this should only be talked about if you have experience offline against these characters. That's while I am posting this about DK I actually fought Dks in person.
If your opponent is reading you better it's because they have more skill than you. It's even because this match's out come will be based on skill only.
I say with no in person experience against these characters don't post here seriously... I'm pretty sure that's about Half of you, No offense but that way we can get a more accurate match up thread.
I do agree this match up discussion should be extended to a week for each character. I also believe this should only be talked about if you have experience offline against these characters. That's while I am posting this about DK I actually fought Dks in person.
If your opponent is reading you better it's because they have more skill than you. It's even because this match's out come will be based on skill only.
I say with no in person experience against these characters don't post here seriously... I'm pretty sure that's about Half of you, No offense but that way we can get a more accurate match up thread.
Ive fought pretty good DKs offline... they have a lot of good meteors so this can discourage you from off the edge edgeguarding. They punch isnt impossible to dodge, its not exactly easy, but on the ground the best thing to do is roll backwards,away from the punch. A sidestep works well too. PKF traps DK well and he gets juggled by pkt too. but hes so powerful... and pretty quick. Oh and his recovery can be edgehogged.....and cargo hold is devestating if the DK can get you off the edge and throw you at the stage, pretty much stage spiked... Oh and foward B in my opinion is not to reliable, I see it coming ussually.
so 50-50 in my opinion
I agree with Ref, this match will pretty much be pure skill.
EDIT: Oh and Dk has a million KO moves...forgot about that.
so 50-50 in my opinion
I agree with Ref, this match will pretty much be pure skill.
EDIT: Oh and Dk has a million KO moves...forgot about that.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Oh my gosh. Now it's neutral? If I have to send you a video of my Donkey Kong ****** three other players, I will. It's quite recent, as it has occurred this very night. Sorry, guys, but now I find this thread as bias as it can be. You could have taken my advice, and I made an example, because today I went to the Bowser Character Chat and posted up a thread to ask Bowser mainers what they thought of Samus and how they think Samus does against Bowser. You guys could have done the same.
It was always Neutral? Does DK have an advantage over Ness? If so can you inform me? I don't see how Ness has an advantage over DK? Which one are you trying to prove? I said it's neutral.
An advantage= Basically what can DK do on Ness that he can't do on other characters?
A disadvantage= What can happen to this character that is not doable to all the other characters.
I don't see one for either. So of course I put it neutral.... DK is a great character.... Just to put that out there...
This is not discussing how good a character is. It's discussing what one character can do to the other. The topic creator should have posted on other forums since he is running this thing.
Please inform us how it is not neutral...?
This is why I hate posting in these match up stuff..... I should have never posted now that I think of it....
An advantage= Basically what can DK do on Ness that he can't do on other characters?
A disadvantage= What can happen to this character that is not doable to all the other characters.
I don't see one for either. So of course I put it neutral.... DK is a great character.... Just to put that out there...
This is not discussing how good a character is. It's discussing what one character can do to the other. The topic creator should have posted on other forums since he is running this thing.
Please inform us how it is not neutral...?
This is why I hate posting in these match up stuff..... I should have never posted now that I think of it....
Crystanium
Smash Hero
You said it's neutral. Why? Donkey Kong is second heaviest character in the game. I have lasted up to 217% with Donkey Kong. He has powerful attacks and is quick on his feet. He may not have projectiles, but that's not a problem. His recovery is average, but so is Ness'. Donkey Kong also has a wide range of KO potential. Do you know what a match-up list is? Heck, even IvanEva's match-up chart shows that Donkey Kong has a slight advantage against Ness, and Ness has a slight disadvantage against Donkey Kong. Neither say "Neutral."
DK is heavy to everyone... That is not a disadvantage to Ness himself. IvanEva is a normal member who is not well respected at all... Many will agree most of his chart is wrong.
I say Neutral. DK has the same options he does against pretty much every character. No way Ness is puts him at an advantage or opens More options to him.
Why are you so against Neutral?
lol i missed this thread.
Uffe and Dryn = same wii?
I was wondering where Uffe was living, state-wise, so that we had red connection. Figures, we were on opposite sides of the country lol.
Correct on playstyle. Campy play when you know Sonic's attacks well (and which ones are punishable/have commitment) will usually win.
OH!
Uffe and Dryn = same wii?
I was wondering where Uffe was living, state-wise, so that we had red connection. Figures, we were on opposite sides of the country lol.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Except, the weight of a character means that the character will survive longer.
You commit a twofold logical fallacy. First, you try to undermine IvanEva's chart by saying that he "is a normal member who is not well respected at all..." That, if I understand correctly, is an ad hominem abusive. That IvanEva "is not well respected" is irrelevant. Second, you say that "Many will agree most of his chart is wrong." That, my friend is called ad populum, or an appeal to the people. Just because the majority of the people may disagree with something does not make it wrong. The concept of geocentricism was held in the past and agreed to be true, even by Aristotle himself. We know now that the earth is heliocentric.
Consider weight, offense, defense, speed, projectile, KO potential, recovery, &c. Donkey Kong can rack up percent damage really quick with his standard attacks. The first three Donkey Kong beats Ness. He is slightly slower than Ness. Both have average recovery. It doesn't take long for Donkey Kong to KO Ness, since Donkey Kong is a powerhouse. Ness beats Donkey Kong in projectile.
Because, when I see some of you Ness mainers not like how the match-up is going for Ness, you automatically call out "Neutral," or "60-40." Not necessarily you. The "you" is plural.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Yeah, we share the same Wii. I own the Wii, but my twin brother shares it with me.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
I like daily better. Weekly takes to long. Ness vs DK is hell. I play a good DK, and approaching with PKF works for me. I forgot to add that you should aproach with fair as well. Most of the Mario mains underestimate Ness. I will re-visit some matchups. (im on my PSP)
So Dryn you think that DK has a significant advantage over Ness, not just a 60-40 but a 70-30 or more??(and you guys are twins? I knew you were brothers but not twins lol.)
also revisiting match ups sounds very good, since there is still a lot of controversy.
Also, im really not trying to be bias at all....sorry if I seem that way, but really Im saying the same stuff I would say at any other match up thread, I just go to this one more since I frequent the ness boards more...
But DK does not suck....I could fudge a 55-45 advantage DK...but I belive its 50-50 based on matches Ive played (offline.)
also revisiting match ups sounds very good, since there is still a lot of controversy.
Also, im really not trying to be bias at all....sorry if I seem that way, but really Im saying the same stuff I would say at any other match up thread, I just go to this one more since I frequent the ness boards more...
But DK does not suck....I could fudge a 55-45 advantage DK...but I belive its 50-50 based on matches Ive played (offline.)
Crystanium
Smash Hero
Whatever works, I guess. I just find that if you have at least a week, you can gather more information on that specific character. Sometimes I find myself becoming a bit lazy when it comes to progressing with my Samus guide, but still, I continue because I want to see the good things and bad things about Samus. If anyone wants to get an idea on how I am starting to collect my information, go here. This may not be a week long for me, because I am going to spend my time on learning about one character and try to collect as much information as possible.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
that. DK should be in the 55 department. hes hell, but not hell incarnate. (just post which matchup you disagree with, and we will revisit it. But we need to come to a concensus first.) NOBODY LEAVE! The more people here, the better.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
I apologize if I am coming off a bit harsh to all of you Ness mainers. I don't want any flame wars or anything of the sort. There will always be disagreement when it comes to match-up information. I'll try to tone down a bit.
PKSkyler, I'm not saying that Donkey Kong should have 70-30. I'm just saying that the match is in favor with Donkey Kong.
Crystanium
Smash Hero
ChromePirate made a thread, asking about who is the worst match-up for Donkey Kong. Go here. So far, no one has said Ness. They also have a match-up list at their Character Chat forum, but they aren't discussing Ness yet.
I'll be away for now working on my thread.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Forget post.
Okay that makes sense Dryn, I have no problem agreeing to a 55-45. It makes sense the way you put it, I guess... I believed it was neutral against the DK's I played offline. Also if I understand the sticky thread that the DK's have I'd believe it says neutral too... I base my 50-50 off of the DKs I fought. I couldn't really see the Disadvantage Ness had on DK.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154971
In that they give Ness a 5 Which is their view of Neutral... So I took that In consideration and also used my knowledge to say it was Neutral. Have you check if maybe Ness is an easy match for you because you play
against him all the time?
Maybe I just am good against DK, or even maybe just way better than that DK?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154971
In that they give Ness a 5 Which is their view of Neutral... So I took that In consideration and also used my knowledge to say it was Neutral. Have you check if maybe Ness is an easy match for you because you play
against him all the time?
Maybe I just am good against DK, or even maybe just way better than that DK?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
But on the same matchup thread on said board, ripple (DK main) said it was 5-5. Hell most DK mains said it was even. I posted some DK vs Ness tips at night but.
1. I don't see what DK has over Ness exactly. Nothing at all.
2. PKF leads into a free bat.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
QUOTE FROM S2, Zelda main:
Well he does have several interesting points, but I must disagree with Ness having the advantage on this matchup. Grabbing Zelda is impossible for me... (maybe Im a scrub?)
off-topic: The DK board matchup said that Ness can't kill DK until 170%+ without spiking, and I must say that that is complete BS! DK can die at ~100% with the right attacks(or ~60% if you sweetspot a PKT2, ~80% with fully charged PKFlash, etc.)
on-topic: I hate Zelda...(that's all I have to say for now)
on-topic: I hate Zelda...(that's all I have to say for now)
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Backthrow kills DK at 145%.
And Ness bair kills DK at 130% if you don't waste it.
BS about killing at 170%.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
S2 should give his character more credit.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723
Decided on neutral. All arguments are made in that thread.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723
Decided on neutral. All arguments are made in that thread.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
I KNOW Zelda is pretty much even. (the Zelda I face owns me alot though)
Any tips. Kinda ironic on how this matchup is even, but the Zelda I face destroys me. I can't approach her to save my life. I can't play defensive either, or else I'll eat some Din's fire. How do you win?
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Well I have videos up, but I recorded on my crappy recording device, so I don't play as effectively as I want to... and also, they're WiFi, but you get the idea. However, I think my more effective fights vs. her were:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLWhWzp85wk (was getting sandbagged at first)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd5nwHlcwAs&feature=related
Those are a month old, so yeah, I've improved much. But basically, what I try to do is stand right outside of her range and punish with ground attacks. Her Usmash and Nayru's are too good for keeping people off of her, and so only fair would be a really safe approach against her... but even then, that becomes predictable, so I try to stand grounded a bit more than usual to throw PK Fire or a yo-yo at her. Once I get her up, then I take to the air. Of course, I don't stay grounded all the time, but it's hard to approach her.
Also note, that Zelda is offensive and gives me some trouble. Imagine one who decided to stay defensive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLWhWzp85wk (was getting sandbagged at first)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd5nwHlcwAs&feature=related
Those are a month old, so yeah, I've improved much. But basically, what I try to do is stand right outside of her range and punish with ground attacks. Her Usmash and Nayru's are too good for keeping people off of her, and so only fair would be a really safe approach against her... but even then, that becomes predictable, so I try to stand grounded a bit more than usual to throw PK Fire or a yo-yo at her. Once I get her up, then I take to the air. Of course, I don't stay grounded all the time, but it's hard to approach her.
Also note, that Zelda is offensive and gives me some trouble. Imagine one who decided to stay defensive.