Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

cba · Dec 16, 2008

LOL. yea thx. i guess i dont browse the forums well enough.
THANKS GUYS!!!

TheZeroSuit · Dec 22, 2008

MARTH

Pros:

Cons:

Final Verdict: 50:50

Matchup Advice: Coming Soon

Game Plan:
Suitpiece Strategy:
Long Range:
Medium Range:
Close Range:
In the air:
When Marth is Recovering:
When ZSS is Recovering:
Matchup Unique Information:

Counterpick Advice:

Stages to Counter-pick:
Stages to Avoid:

Marth Contributors:

xxxx

Marth's Thread

Old Information:

TheZeroSuit said:
from Orion's:

CyanCyde said:

Marth can be a tough matchup, especially if he's aggressive with his side-B. The best counter that I've found has either been a down-B to try to go over his head or dodgerolling. If you time the dodgeroll right, you should get a Ftilt or a Dtilt to pop him up for aerial shenanigans.

Click to expand...

k4polo said:

My suggestion is to keep him ranged with Side B. Punish when necessary and take the defensive approach. If you go all out offense, you will get destroyed. Do what ever it take to get him in the air. From below, Marth doesn't have much and ZSS has alot when Marth is in the air. (Combo pillaring). Marth may air dodge before you can combo so that when you do mind games to combo Marth. (i.e. expect him to air dodge and DI then combo pillaring when you see an opening)

WATCH the tip of his blade.

If you do not watch it, you will get destroyed. You will last alot longer if you dodge the tip of his blade.You may have to slightly move toward him and take a hit close up just to avoid the tip in some situations. Keep out of his range at the tip of his attack and out range him.Use Side B smartly.

Don't use it up close too much as that is Marth's best attacks up close.Use it as long range defensive attack(Side B). Preferably, do that attack in a manner that is unpunishable and long range. Same with the throw. Be careful with it and do it at a range or when he whiffs maybe a f smash. Also be prepared to handle the SH Fairs with Marth.

Also WATCH the tip of his blade.

Click to expand...

Snakeee said:

Marth has no projectile so it is safe to do retreating paralyzer shots and either force him to make an approach and punish it, or get a shot in and get him with a dash attack-uptilt-etc.
- You have more range than Marth so use that to your advantage mostly with the forward B.
-Learn to predict his f-smashes when you're at high percent, powershield them, and go in for a dash attack combo.
- You really don't want to get in too close unless you're almost sure you're going to get a hit in. Marth can destroy you around the forward B's blind spot area, and I especially hate the forward B there.
-Be extra cautious using grabs against Marth especially at high percents because you'll eat a tipper f-smash

Camp him until you create an opening with both retreating forward-Bs and paralyzer shots. You don't want him to get in close to you. Once you get a hit in, or at least have him shield at pretty close range, you should mostly just try to get him in the air. Once you do that, he is easily juggled. Use Forward B off the stage usually for edgeguarding. If he comes in from below, you can time a D-smash to hit him under the stage and stage spike him by running off and B-airing him.

Click to expand...

Bouse said:

try to figure out EXACTLY where his counter hits. Then just stay out of it's attack range and just use your F-aerial. It eats the counter and you hit him with the stronger attack. Also, timing your Down+B to fake him out can mess with him pretty decently. I know his counter lasts as my friend refers to it "the lunar cycle", but once you eat up his counter he's proper ****ed.

You can't hit him with the stronger attack but you can still eat his counter and miss the attack arc, it still gives you an opening to nail him in the face though.

Click to expand...

I'm a little late, but hey, let's keep it rollin'.

DeliciousCake · Dec 22, 2008

The problem with Marth is that there's this blurry zone between you and him. You can out-range him easily with Plasma Whip and well-spaced D-smashes, but getting in close for some aerials is incredibly dangerous.

Yankee · Dec 22, 2008

Well i looked at the match up thread over at the Marth boards and though about this match up a bit. The biggest factors in the match up is what hurts the other character more: Marth's advantage up close or ZSS superior range game.
In general, ZSS is more mobile than Marth. If the ZSS player manages to maintain good spacing the whole match, I think it has to be in her favor. As soon as the Marth gets hit with the stun gun or down smash, the ZSS has a free follow up.
Not to mention that Marth's recovery is far less versatile than ZSS. The only thing to worry about there is the possibility of a stage spike. Even if the ZSS did screw up her spacing and let Marth in, its not all over because she can jab or down b out again.
Based on this, I think Marth is hurt more in this match. It seems like getting close enough to get in some strings on ZSS is just more of a pain than it is for ZSS to stay away. I would go 55:45. I haven't played many awesome Marths, but when you break it down I don't think that Marth has a slightly harder time than ZSS here. Any other view on this?

cba · Dec 22, 2008

Pros:
-Is more agile than marth
-has a better recovery
-Better range on some attacks
-plasma whip has beast spacing and is a kill move
-Better but punishable grab range
-recovery can ****, marth wouldnt like to try and gimp

Cons:
-Can kill her faster
-Can Spike her when recovering
-better aerial game
-Can gimp her, in some cases.
- marths grabs mean ****(when compared to ZSS)

Final Verdict: 45-55
Matchup Advice: watchout for his SHFair: it will be spammed. Avoid pressure by returning it.

Game Plan:
Marth is a character that OVERALL plays on pressure, try and return it by using plasma whip.

Suitpiece Strategy:
Warning, Marth can glidetoss and it wont help you out much. just Keep constant pressure on him with them and dont let him grab them.

Long Range:

ZSS has the advantage because of plasma whip and you still can Spam your Plasma charge, if he tries to approach you can Jab combo and SH Plasma whip to keep the pressure on. he WILL come hith his SHfair.
(dont have much ideas)

Medium Range:
Marth has a Slight Advantage here cause he can put the pressure back on you.

When Marth is Recovering: Space your Dsmash and you may be able to bair him.
(Dont know this match well)

When ZSS is Recovering: Trick marth into believe your gonna tether and do a fake one when he tries to gimp you will plasma whip him and/or you can always flipstool or do a plain flip-jump to up b.

Counterpick Advice:
Stages to Avoid: Battlefield?

TBC.....

TheZeroSuit · Dec 22, 2008

Ok I edited the first post with what I could distill from the ROB matchup discussion. Please tell me If I got something wrong. (Someone else will have to do the writeup for GaW) - Adapt

I'm making a thread in the marth forums right now.

Here is the discussion they had on ZSS a while back: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5404750

∫unk · Dec 22, 2008

I play Faded and Warp Status so I have some pretty good ZSS experieince...

The matchup is largely dependent on whether Marth knows what he's doing with the armor pieces. Most don't. I didn't against Faded in pools a few weeks ago and I had a hard time (lost both games last stock high percent) until Warp finally told me :laugh:

If Marth gets a armor piece and knows what to do with it he's more dangerous than you are with it. His glide toss follow ups are insane and he gets a nearly impossible to punish setup (sh down throw to f-air), I've taken stock off zero suits with minimal damage with her own pieces.

I think matchup numbers are dumb but it's pretty even if ZSS gets a lot of damage with the armor pieces first stock otherwise it's a pretty big disadvantage forward b is predictable and easy to dodge/powershield and punish.

Mazaloth · Dec 22, 2008

1) Be sure to keep a controlled Powersuit item, it would be very bad to have a Marth main to get it.
2) Spacing is hard because of Marth's mobility in the air, and the SHFFFair's and Dtilt's don't really help either. Play a defensive game and keep Marth away with the taser.
3) Since ZSS main killing move is SideB, Zss has a bit of trouble with that starting lag, once again, tasers work like a charm.
4) Tasers, lots o' them, keep Marth away and immobile. This will allow a greater advantage of controling the field.
5) Do not try to confront Marth with your aerials. I know, I know, Zss's aerials are great, the Uair and Bair are great, but Marth outranges you, so try to keep your aerials to a limit until you find a good opening.

TheZeroSuit · Dec 24, 2008

alrighty, finally found some time to update and write up some stuff.

fixed up R.O.B.'s match-up stuff (Thank you Adapt for getting the ball rolling).
wrote up GaW's match-up.
changed OP to have a chart.
moved archived match-up advice to the particular character's post (for easier hyperlinking in the chart).
fixed up Marth's character post with the previous match-up advice (there is tons).

If anyone has any suggestions about changing the stuff I wrote, don't hesitate to post.

ty again to anyone that worked on OP in my absence (I think it was mainly Adapt, ty ty).

FadedImage · Dec 24, 2008

Pros:

ZSS has good edgeguard techniques on Marth
Can use side-b to outspace Marth's aerials
No projectile or reflector means neutral-b is useful

Cons:

Marth's side-b is a great punishment tool
Marth can edgeguard us right back if we aren't careful

Final Verdict: 50:50

Matchup Advice:

Game Plan:
Space Marth with side-b and punish any retaliation. Get him in the air above you.
Suitpiece Strategy:
Marth's got a pretty sick glide toss last time I checked. Other than that, he doesn't have a lot of options against suitpieces. Edgeguarding with suitpieces is **** too, since his horizontal recovery is subpar. Countering suitpieces doesn't really accomplish much, since you can just punish the lag.
Long Range:
uhh, lol.
Medium Range:
Neutral-Bs and Side-Bs like mad. He'll either sh approach with fairs/nairs, dash->side-b, or roll at you. Most of these approaches are pretty dangerous. Grab his sh approaches, if he spaces, shieldgrab, if he gets close, retreating pivot grab. Try to d-tilt his dash. Try to U-tilt/dash attack his roll.
Close Range:
usual problem with ZSS, his side-b and d-tilt are **** for shield pressure, and he's got an okay grab game (good for setting up aerials). Get used to SDI'ing his side-b, he'll be using it for punishing bad dash attacks and failed aerial approaches. Make sure you're either really close, or far enough for a side-b. In between that and you'll catch various tipper smashes, which Marth needs to rely on for normal-ish percent kills (apart from edgeguards).
In the air:
Stay under him, his fair is faaast, and his bair is pretty decent (but definitely worse than fair). His dair takes days, and its landing lag is horribad. Your U-air will easily smoke his d-air. He's got a decent U-Air and U-Tilt, so be careful when coming down on him from above, he'll probably just punish you for that type of approach anyways.
When Marth is Recovering:
Try to bait airdodges with side-b so that he'll recover low, and then edgehog when he's about to up-b. If he spaces it right, he'll still be able to return to the stage, however, he'll have insane lag. Down-b directly off the edge and flipkick his *** back off towards the wall. This works insanely well (having done it multiple times in tourney).
When ZSS is Recovering:
Be very careful of F-airs to interrupt your jumps and down-b. They're super fast and he can throw them out all day. Also, be very careful hanging with tether, his up-b will stagespike you hardcore.
Matchup Unique Information:
uhh, nothing really, no grab release shenanigans that I can think of or any of that.

Counterpick Advice:

Stages to Counter-pick:
- Final Destination - kinda like the GaW matchup, you want a nice flat surface to properly side-b and neutral-b harass.
- Jungle Japes - maybe? no edgeguarding for him, but that means no edgeguarding for you too. iono bout this one.
- Pokemon Stadium 1 - maybe? just my personal fav, only drawback here is he can f-smash through walls and shiz, so sometimes the wall shenanigans can backfire.
Stages to Avoid:
- normally bad stages, Frigate Orpheon and such.

Snakeee said:
I take back my standpoint on the Snake match up. I think it's at least even for ZSS now.

Why is that? I still have the most trouble with him, more than any other high/top tier (excluding the obvious Falco). The gap in survivability is just way too large for it to be an even match.

gaawwdaaayum I'm burnt out on writing match-up stuff. lol.

btw, I toss my vote in for metaknight next, the "OMG BAN MK" discussion has died enough that we can seriously talk about this match-up (and how it's 50:50, OH SHI- I said it) d;

Yankee · Dec 24, 2008

FadedImage said:
gaawwdaaayum I'm burnt out on writing match-up stuff. lol.

btw, I toss my vote in for metaknight next, the "OMG BAN MK" discussion has died enough that we can seriously talk about this match-up(and how it's 50:50, OH SHI- I said it) d;

O snaps! Please, i would love to see what comes out of that discussion. I personally agree that it is probably close. Metaknight and snake aren't actually giving me as much trouble lately. For now it doesn't seem like the Marth discussion is going anywhere anyway. It seems universally agreed that it is slight or no advantage for either side.

Anyway, back to Marth. I would avoid stages like battlefield and lylat on this matchup because the platforms make it easier for him to get solid hits on you. I would pick FD or smashville.

Snakeee · Dec 24, 2008

Yankee said:
O snaps! Please, i would love to see what comes out of that discussion. I personally agree that it is probably close. Metaknight and snake aren't actually giving me as much trouble lately. For now it doesn't seem like the Marth discussion is going anywhere anyway. It seems universally agreed that it is slight or no advantage for either side.

Anyway, back to Marth. I would avoid stages like battlefield and lylat on this matchup because the platforms make it easier for him to get solid hits on you. I would pick FD or smashville.

I love battlefield against Marth, and Lylat, and FD. Actually I don't particularly like Smashville in that match up. Delphino would be my least favorite here.

Btw, I really feel the need to stress that Snake is an at least even match up, maybe even ZSS' advantage. The main advantage for Snake is the difference in the percent that they can kill each other, but ZSS' edgeguarding on Snake almost makes up for that anyway.

Yankee · Dec 25, 2008

Snakeee said:
I love battlefield against Marth, and Lylat, and FD. Actually I don't particularly like Smashville in that match up. Delphino would be my least favorite here.

Btw, I really feel the need to stress that Snake is an at least even match up, maybe even ZSS' advantage. The main advantage for Snake is the difference in the percent that they can kill each other, but ZSS' edgeguarding on Snake almost makes up for that anyway.

Well ZSS and Marth are both excellent on Battlefield. The victor will probably be the one who is able to keep the opponent in their proffered range. I hate delfino in any match up. I also hate Yoshi's Island (brawl) for some strange reason.
Why is it that you don't like smashville here? It's long, flat design makes it harder for Marth to get close and easier for you to space. The platform helps you land aerials on him without getting punished.
I also agree with you on the snake match up. Playing snake is so fun :laugh:

FadedImage · Dec 25, 2008

Snakeee said:
Btw, I really feel the need to stress that Snake is an at least even match up, maybe even ZSS' advantage. The main advantage for Snake is the difference in the percent that they can kill each other, but ZSS' edgeguarding on Snake almost makes up for that anyway.

you seem to forget Snake's insane ability to control the stage and area around him. Also his insane ability to punish. Plus, the gap in survivability is still significant, even with the great edgeguarding abilities of ZSS.

Maybe go into a little more depth?

Snakeee · Dec 25, 2008

I'm tired and its Christmas, I'll go more into detail later.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that it seems that he cannot stop her from continuously restarting the jab combo.

Adapt · Dec 25, 2008

TheZeroSuit said:
ty again to anyone that worked on OP in my absence (I think it was mainly Adapt, ty ty).

Yeah that was me... we needed to move the discussion along.

canthandletheSpeculosity · Dec 26, 2008

why do people hate yoshi's?

Chaco · Dec 26, 2008

canthandletheSpeculosity said:
why do people hate yoshi's?

Raaaandom much.

Darxmarth23 · Dec 26, 2008

He gimps.

I hate it.

Chaco · Dec 26, 2008

Aww, you don't Yoshi. 3:

I used to main him, still have the icon up there. I'm actually doing ZSS and Marth now.

canthandletheSpeculosity · Dec 27, 2008

Oh sorry i meant the stage.

ZSNeji · Dec 27, 2008

canthandletheSpeculosity said:
Oh sorry i meant the stage.

For ZSS it sorta ****s up the suit pieces in general. Besides that...nothing really. The platform might get annoying at times, but not really.

Yankee · Dec 28, 2008

canthandletheSpeculosity said:
Oh sorry i meant the stage.

I don't know. I just hate it with a passion. It is my least favorite neutral.

Emblem Lord · Dec 28, 2008

You all seem to be doing well.

Snakeee · Dec 28, 2008

Emblem Lord said:
You all seem to be doing well.

All right EL is back, and just in time to debate the Marth match up.

~PsykoTek~ · Dec 28, 2008

Hmmmm i'd love to know how ZSS fairs against that *** Marth, but I never new she was a good match-up against ROB, i'll hafta start CP'ing her against him on AiB ( **** glide toss spammerz )

FadedImage · Jan 4, 2009

so what does everyone think on this one?

I know me and Snakeee are talking 50:50.

A lot of marths claim 60:40 or so, but I just don't see it. I read a lot of their match-up thread and it sounds like a bunch of people talking about ZSS like it was the week of release, (gimp her recovery, she's all side-b, etc etc).

Of course, EL was putting up some better arguments, but some I still don't see. Maybe I underestimate Marth's kill power, but I don't see it being better than ours. Plus, we've got shieldgrabs all day in this match-up (spaced fairs, side-b, any smash, etc.).

anywho, what's the consensus? I wanna move on to Meta. d:

Adapt · Jan 4, 2009

I have never played a good marth... Only a guy who used him as a secondary. He beat me with his MK, but lost with his marth.

I would agree with 50-50, but like I said this is based on insufficient experience

Snakeee · Jan 4, 2009

This match up is all about letting him approach, dodging it, and getting him in the air where she can wreck him. Marth's range is nice, but not as much or a problem for ZSS as other characters. I think they're both actually really good at punishing the other, and yeah I'd say it's even.

ph00tbag · Jan 4, 2009

I could see anything ranging from 6:4 to 5:5. I don't have a lot of experience with the match-up, but bait and punish has worked before, so it's a good plan, and probably evens the odds.

Sesshomuronay · Jan 4, 2009

I would say the matchup is even.

Emblem Lord · Jan 4, 2009

I call 55/45 Marth.

And what shield grabs do you speak of? You do not get any guaranteed shield grab off a spaced fair.

What does ZSS kill with that is better then Marth's other then side b which she must use alot to keep him out?

FadedImage · Jan 4, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
And what shield grabs do you speak of? You do not get any guaranteed shield grab off a spaced fair.

How not? If you hit the shield and start backing off, the range of our tether will grab you as you land, you can't airdodge directly into spotdodge. You'll get grabbed.

Emblem Lord said:
What does ZSS kill with that is better then Marth's other then side b which she must use alot to keep him out?

I dunno what Marth can kill with besides smashes (which shouldn't be in tipper range) and tippered n-airs. ZSS should be killing with b-air, d-smash->b-air, and down-b kick (as a recovery punishment). Plus normal edgeguarding. Side-B is strictly for revenge kills. There's also a good chance for high screen u-airs, since Marth isn't that great at coming down on ZSS.

Adapt · Jan 5, 2009

Faded, Marth will kill us at lower percents than we will kill him

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

Adapt said:
Faded, Marth will kill us at lower percents than we will kill him

I don't think this is true unless he connects with a tipper f-smash. ZSS' edgeguarding is a bit better than Marth's in general and in the match up. Her chances of hitting him off the stage are about the same, but ZSS has a much easier time getting back onto the stage than Marth does...or rather ZSS is one of the best and most annoying characters while on the ledge and can camp it very well until she creates an opening.

And, like I said I don't try to space myself as much with side B's I use ZSS' aerial abilities more, and tilts/jab out of shield is very viable including against Marth.

FadedImage · Jan 5, 2009

I agree with Snakeee on this one. With good DI, nothing short of a tippered smash should be capable of killing you earlier than 130%+, which is just around our kill range. I don't think the weight difference is all that significant, so there really isn't that big of a gap in survivability. Plus, Marth is frequently in the air, making it easier to connect with b-airs without a set-up.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

Any of Marth's smashes will kill her before she can kill him in terms of percentage. And side b isn't a super viable kill move. You can block it on reaction.

Also...you can't shield grab a spaced fair guaranteed. That's complete garbage.

You can try to guess. But it's not guaranteed.

Snakee: Please tell me when I DON'T get tippers. lolz.

Crystanium · Jan 5, 2009

Interesting. I used my five day old Zero Suit Samus against someone today who mains Marth. The first match was sad. I was three-stocked. However, on the final match, I was able to get his Marth down to his last stock.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

Get your anecdotal garbage out of here.

Seriously though that proves nothing.

Break down the match-up. Piece by piece.

Ground game, killing ability, out of shield options, pressure game.

The whole ****ing nine yards.

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

"Any of Marth's smashes will kill her before she can kill him in terms of percentage. And side b isn't a super viable kill move. You can block it on reaction."
- I know that, which is why I use it pretty rarely now. I use B-air, F-air, and Up Airs at the top of the stage to kill far more than that. It can be used on occasion to kill in the air/as an edgeguard though.

"Also...you can't shield grab a spaced fair guaranteed. That's complete garbage."

- She can't do that period if it's spaced and timed right. Marth can side B her before the grab comes out. Hoever, she can jab to up tilt if he gets somewhat close with it, and if he doesn't get that close she can up air him.

"Snakee: Please tell me when I DON'T get tippers. lolz."

- I know your spacing is very good with that, but to do it you have to be in a pretty exact position, and I'm very likely to even power shield it from there.

Emblem Lord said:
Get your anecdotal garbage out of here.

Seriously though that proves nothing.

Break down the match-up. Piece by piece.

Ground game, killing ability, out of shield options, pressure game.

The whole ****ing nine yards.

I'll get to all that eventually, but I'm not good with analyzing it as a whole. It's better if someone like you starts talking about something specific, and then I give my input on it. (which is already working out considering I wasn't giving much thought on this until you came in :laugh:

)

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