Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[Sesshomuronay]

Wait their actually thinking of banning our D-smash chain? LOL wtf is that? I mean ban DDDs infinate before you even think about banning any other loop things.

Also does anyone else feel its time to discuss a new character?

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't see how you think DDD's standing cg is not broken though. Saying that the characters it works on are low tier is a VERY poor argument. So, you don't want to ban something that is an automatic KO from a single grab because the characters suck anyway?

The argument is not just that the characters suck anyway. It's that the infinite's impact on the game is almost miniscule, compared to many other things, because many of the characters it works on are rarely seen in tournaments, and are generally expected to be knocked out by many other characters besides DDD. In the case of DK, many DK players pick up a secondary just for DDD, and just deal with it. Yes, he is less viable on his own, but that's part of the game.

For some context, the vast majority of fighting games out there have at least one character who has a 0 to death combo on someone that is guaranteed from the very first hit. These things have never been banned, because the players accepted them as part of the game. The games have continued to be successful competitively. Ultimately, I'm saying, don't let individual match-ups play into your considerations. Your thoughts should be on the game as a whole. Brawl as a competitive title is not significantly hurt by this infinite, and I think I've shown why. Therefore, there is no reason for it to be banned.

 

[Snakeee]

But at least with ZSS' d-smash it's difficult to set up and doesn't work all the time. For DDD's all you need is one grab...grabs are the basis of DDD's metagame! DDD is the easiest character to grab with, and it makes those match ups like 99/1 lol. It's truly game-breaking, and I think it should be banned everywhere without question.

Last time I played Atomsk in friendlies he did that a few times, and we were cracking up about how ******** it was. I had forgotten at the time that this was something that was still being debated on in other regions.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

But at least with ZSS' d-smash it's difficult to set up and doesn't work all the time. For DDD's all you need is one grab...grabs are the basis of DDD's metagame! DDD is the easiest character to grab with, and it makes those match ups like 99/1 lol. It's truly game-breaking, and I think it should be banned everywhere without question.

Last time I played Atomsk in friendlies he did that a few times, and we were cracking up about how ******** it was. I had forgotten at the time that this was something that was still being debated on in other regions.

I strongly agree with you. Dededes infinate may only affect a small amount of the cast but its sooooo bloody easy to pull off. Especially since dedede has a gargantuan grab range and he can force the opponent to approach with waddle dees. I mean it only affects a small amount of the cast but why the heck do people want these characters to be less viable than they could be? I mean geeze whoever uses the excuse "Its only a small amount of low tier characters" as an argument is a ******.

 

[ph00tbag]

No offense, but complaining about ease of use is really little more than that: complaining. Complaining never solved a problem. I point you to this thread. For this thread alone, I have a great deal of respect for the DK boards. There was very little complaint (and what there was was duly silenced), and mostly people sought a means to deal with DDD that didn't involve playing DK. So if someone plays in a region where the infinite is not banned, they have a resource on what to do to counter this hopeless matchup.

That's exactly what this community needs more of; people seeking out a solid means of countering so-called "broken" techniques.

Edit: Oh, and Sessho, thanks for calling me a ****** when I'm actually trying to engage in a respectful discourse. The sentiment is appreciated.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Your very welcome. Now can we discuss something zero suit samus related?

 

[Snakeee]

Thanks, I respect ph00tbag though and I like having knowledgeable debates. He knows a lot about the game, and it's perfectly fine to have a different opinion on something.

Anyway this is too funny
Snakeee vs Inui/Atomsk vs M2K/Inui vs Bum/etc

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Ok I'll admit that phoot isnt a ****** but I will never agree with his views on the infinates.

 

[ph00tbag]

Anyway this is too funny
Snakeee vs Inui/Atomsk vs M2K/Inui vs Bum/etc

What the hell? Too good.

Everyone knows you only win because you play ZSS. Whatever that means.

 

[Snakeee]

What the hell? Too good.

Everyone knows you only win because you play ZSS. Whatever that means.

Heh. It's because of this thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209416

 

[DeliciousCake]

That entire thread basically circles back to "OMG ZSS 2 GAY LOL" every other post.

 

[Cynan Machae]

Oh god that thread made me laugh.

I have to agree that it'S true that most people do not have much experience against ZSS

Edit: Oh god that vid is awesome.

 

[cba]

Thanks, I respect ph00tbag though and I like having knowledgeable debates. He knows a lot about the game, and it's perfectly fine to have a different opinion on something.

Anyway this is too funny
Snakeee vs Inui/Atomsk vs M2K/Inui vs Bum/etc

LOL. i saw snake use some bairs in there. i LOLed to this.

 

[TheRockSays]

Thanks, I respect ph00tbag though and I like having knowledgeable debates. He knows a lot about the game, and it's perfectly fine to have a different opinion on something.

Anyway this is too funny
Snakeee vs Inui/Atomsk vs M2K/Inui vs Bum/etc

Dam that video was pure genious special 1:00-1:14 had me rolling xD

 

[ph00tbag]

Thanks, I respect ph00tbag though and I like having knowledgeable debates. He knows a lot about the game, and it's perfectly fine to have a different opinion on something.

Anyway this is too funny
Snakeee vs Inui/Atomsk vs M2K/Inui vs Bum/etc

1:37 - 1:40 flip jump kick.

 

[Adapt]

I figured that was a bair

 

[FadedImage]

holy **** guys. the last 3 pages of this discussion have been rofl.

Anyways, back to ROB.

I just played a set against the best ROB in socal the last tournament I went to. I have to say, it's incredibly hard to pressure him. When you keep your eye on him, it's easy to get past lasers and gyros, since they're so telegraphed. However, his extremely fast roll and spotdodge make it very difficult to pin him anywhere. If you try to side-b him, he can roll into you and d-smash you before you get a chance to do anything. As far as close combat goes, ROB is actually pretty **** good. His d-tilt is fast, large, and trips like crazy, his grab is great and deals good damage.

The only thing we got going for us here is ROBs lack of ability to kill. If you can avoid getting hit by his rather predictable aerials (which shouldn't be too large of a problem, you have great aerial mobility) then you can survive to rather high percents. Of course, you also have to watch out for f-smashes, but those will be used to punish laggy mistakes, which ZSS doesn't have too many of (just watch out for flipjumping into him). The d-smash can be SDI'd out of, so he shouldn't be able to kill you with that.

Overall I think it's a 5:5

 

[Adapt]

All of ROBs really dangerous stuff is on the ground. His air moves as you said are avoidable. Don't attempt to airdodge his nair though.

I concentrate on getting him in the air. He's really big, and his aerial mobility is less than ours. He will also find it hard to land back on the stage when coming from above. You also can't airdodge out of his recovery move so side-B him.

 

[Snakeee]

Sorry FadedImage, but no way is it even for ROB. IMO it's 65/35 ZSS' favor. She combos him way too easily, and destroys his recovery. He only outranges you with projectiles which aren't too hard to avoid. The same can be said for ZSS' forward B, but that still pressures him more.
At close range, ZSS' tilts are faster than his I think and her jab works really well. His mobility is extremely lacking compared to ZSS'.
Overall it's much easier for ZSS to hit him than for him to hit her.

 

[cba]

i think its in ZSS' favor. i played a rob once and nearly won, it was his CP(luigis mansion) that gave him the win cause that stage is ghey and i dont know how to play in it. also, i hate his spot dodge, its so ghey and it could hardly be punished. I personally think that he is easy to juggle and when in the air the only thing he can do is either dodge or do Uair(his bair might help but in rare occasions and most robs only use NAIR to approach or to try and KO), all of which are easy to punish.

 

[ph00tbag]

I figured that was a bair

Except he had the jump with the invincibility frames first.

-------------------------------

I was about to reply to Faded's post, but then I read Snakeee's and he pretty much said anything I could have said. Faded did bring up the very good point, however, that ROB has a lot of trouble KOing in the air. His biggest tool is nair, but that telegraphs itself, and is fairly easy to interrupt before he can get the hitbox out, or just avoid altogether.

Basically, the way I beat ROBs is I just keep hitting them. It sounds unhelpful, but if you beat a ROB and think about why you won, you'll see what I mean. If you just keep the pressure and never give him time, you'll find it a lot easier.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

ZSS has the edge against rob if you can be agressiveish. Stay within side-B range but not so far as that he can safely laser you.

IMO ZSS is pretty good at handling ROB so like 65-35 or even so far as 70-30.

 

[GwJ]

Sorry FadedImage, but no way is it even for ROB. IMO it's 65/35 ZSS' favor. She combos him way too easily, and destroys his recovery. He only outranges you with projectiles which aren't too hard to avoid. The same can be said for ZSS' forward B, but that still pressures him more.
At close range, ZSS' tilts are faster than his I think and her jab works really well. His mobility is extremely lacking compared to ZSS'.
Overall it's much easier for ZSS to hit him than for him to hit her.

I'm in for a second. Just posting to say I agree with this post.

 

[FadedImage]

Sorry FadedImage, but no way is it even for ROB. IMO it's 65/35 ZSS' favor. She combos him way too easily, and destroys his recovery. He only outranges you with projectiles which aren't too hard to avoid. The same can be said for ZSS' forward B, but that still pressures him more.
At close range, ZSS' tilts are faster than his I think and her jab works really well. His mobility is extremely lacking compared to ZSS'.
Overall it's much easier for ZSS to hit him than for him to hit her.

I'm really curious how everyone is getting ROB into the air.

He doesn't NEED mobility, his spot dodge and roll are plenty enough to keep him safe against most ground game. He can easily roll through ZSS's side-b, no pressure there, especially since he just waits for you to come to him.

I need some ROB frame data on this one, but I feel like his tilts always beat mine out, maybe it's the range, I dunno. Jab does own, but I don't think jab alone makes this match-up an advantage.

I don't see hitting ROB to be an easy feat. In the air, definitely, but it's very hard to get him there.

 

[cba]

Her U smash lasts more than usual. you can easily just run into him and {insert mindgame here} to U smash.
and its more in your favor if the stage has platforms,

 

[ph00tbag]

I'm really curious how everyone is getting ROB into the air.

If Plasma Whip connects, he'll be airborne. If Paralyzer conects, go for a dash attack then utilt, or just a dtilt. You can also dthrow him out of stun.

 

[TheRockSays]

its more in your favor if the stage has platforms,

My cousin Afrothunder(aka Love) Hates battlefield he mains ROB he utterly owns me in FinalD

 

[cba]

My cousin Afrothunder(aka Love) Hates battlefield he mains ROB he utterly owns me in FinalD

that, my friend, is true. But w/ ZSS i HAVE to like it. i always hated BF since melee.
off topic: i actually Destroyed a marth in FD w/ olimar.

 

[soloSHADOWROB]

Haha is it that bad for ROB?
I dont think it is
I dont rely on aerial game against ZZS
Ftilt, dtilt and jabs are great for sets ups.
I dont force myself to attack ZZS im patient
But idk Snakeee maybe its the ROB's you play cause according to M2K there are no ROB's in EC =[

 

[cba]

we need to come up w/ an agreement upon this. and discuss another character like Marth, Wario or DeDeDe.

 

[ph00tbag]

If you try to play a ground game against ZSS, she still has the advantage. Your tilts are massively outranged by her Plasma Whip, and if you try to roll around a well-space one, she'll just jab you before you can even dsmash. It doesn't matter if you don't go aerial against ZSS, because she has moves to put you in the air anyway.

No offense, but maybe it's the ZSSes you play. There are very few high-profile ZSSes that aren't on the EC, as any ZSS main will tell you.

 

[Snakeee]

Haha is it that bad for ROB?
I dont think it is
I dont rely on aerial game against ZZS
Ftilt, dtilt and jabs are great for sets ups.
I dont force myself to attack ZZS im patient
But idk Snakeee maybe its the ROB's you play cause according to M2K there are no ROB's in EC =[

Um...what we have some of the best ROB players here. NinjaLink, Jcasear, Nacker, are all near the top with ROB (actually NL may even be the best with him). And there's plenty more that are up there with ROB.

The fact that you can't utilize your aerial game well makes ROB almost a sitting duck in the air, but the playstyle you described is basically the right way to play it. That doesn't change the match up though.

And what ph00tbag said about there being almost no high level ZSS players is a big point too. I'm just....tired of saying that.

 

[cba]

What he said.
CAN we Advance? Wolf or Marth preferably.
and can we update the topic cause this is taking the longest and there ARE people who need the tips and pros/cons.

 

[TheRockSays]

word i need some with marth all they do to me is Fair like 2 or 3 times and then a downsmash for safe precautions.

 

[kuenzel]

Well, I think we have a pattern of doing the high tiers (because thats who everyone plays, duh) But you think we could get MK out of the way? If he doesn't get banned, he'd probably be the guy we play against the most in tourneys (next to Snake maybe).
The big question- What do we do against the WhoreNado?

 

[Adapt]

Against the whorenado:

Dair, d-smash, and the tip of side-B, all will hit MK out of it. You can also flipstool to avoid it entirely.
You can grab him out of it too, but I don't advise doing that.

Back to the main thing: I vote Pit for the next, but since he's not as common, Marth or MK is fine by me.

 

[NeoZero]

I still want D3 or Wolf, but I'll vote Marth for this one.

 

[cba]

Marth. i think that BF actually doesnt help you much in this case.

 

[Cynan Machae]

I'd vote Wario >< Marth wouldn't be bad tho

 

[FadedImage]

Well we haven't really gotten a real consensus on ROB and there isn't any real solid match-up advice.

Sorry for not updating OP in a while, it's been finals week for me and I have 18 units, so it's purty crazy.

Also, I can vouch for Shadow having played good ZSSs, because he plays me. I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I'm definitely the best in southern california, which is an insanely difficult region to place in. And Shadow is easily the best ROB in socal, he's on our power rankings and he ***** sauce.

It's not that easy to just hit ROB when he relies on a d-tilt that is easily faster/safer than most of your ground game and an f-tilt that outranges everything but side-b and d-smash. I think you guys are seriously underestimating ROB's ground game, it's actually really good.

No one has an answer to ROB's ground game other than "just side-b", which in reality is a hard move to actually hit with, it's great for punishing and spacing, NOT for approaching.

We'll move the discussion onto Marth as soon as I catch up on some of this writing.