xoxokev
Smash Lord
that is... if we ever move onto another character lol
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]
- Thread starter Yink
- Start date
FireKirby7
Smash Lord
Seriously.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
I don't know man.
Let's just move on.
Marth Next. This should be good.
Let's just move on.
Marth Next. This should be good.
FatJackieChan
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2009
- Messages
- 229
Sup, I am from the Marth boards, if you have any questions just go ahead and PM me. Three words, grab release combos.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Neon Ness
Designated Procrastinator
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,631
NO.
Well, I, for one, feel better.
There's more to Marth than mashing Z and A. He has a lot of good qualities like range, priority, and speed. These are also reasons he has the advantage over Ness, not just one exploitable game mechanic.
Approaching is difficult, to be honest. His retreating forward airs are like a brick wall. They outrange our beloved PSI sparklies, unfortunately. PK Thunder really has to be used creatively here, or each one is going to get Countered. Probably ineffective as an aerial juggler against Marth, but more wisely used as a mixup to prevent predictability. Don't use PK Fire... like, ever. Ness can only win relying on his fastest moves here; no room for mistakes. You have to know how to DI Dancing Blade or they'll just keep you there all day. DI towards Marth; DIing away will set you up for some tippered move, no doubt. Save your second jump offstage until you absolutely need it... but that's in most occasions, I guess.
I think Neutral Air is faster than all of Marth's aerials... Just don't overdo it, because like I said... Counter. I don't know too many Marths who dash attack, but in case they do, fend 'em off with a charging up or down smash. The Yo-Yo is a great defensive tool for Ness, so don't overlook it. You're gonna have to think strategically here, and not just use the strongest moves in each situation. Uh, what else... You should never be close to Marth on land. Stay airborne to avoid grabs, and neutral air to create some distance between the two of you. For grabby Marths, unleash the Great Wall of
It's tough, real tough. There's no such thing as an easy Marth in a tournament. Just take it slow and plan this fight out very carefully.
clowsui
Smash Legend
You guys DO realize that we can still dash grab CG you right?
How fast is Nair? Fair comes out on frame 4 and swipes in front of marth lol
How fast is Nair? Fair comes out on frame 4 and swipes in front of marth lol
Neon Ness
Designated Procrastinator
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,631
Yep. Which is why no Ness worth his salt should be using PSI Fire in this fight.
But, frame 4!? I didn't realize it was that fast. I don't pay attention to frame data to be honest, I'm not gonna be counting frames in the middle of a fight. I guess Marth's fair is faster than Ness' nair, though.
Like I said... tough fight...
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Why did you add the LOL at the end.
Not quite sure that Marth's nair comes out on frame four.
Ness hit's on 5, and it's always been faster for me.
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
He was talking about Marth's Fair which indeed comes out on frame 4 and lasts until frame 8 or something.
AdmantNESS
Smash Ace
About that dash cg, can Ness buffer a spotdodge or jab in time after breaking out with EIDI before marth dashgrabs?
The.End
Smash Cadet
Let's not take into account grab release first. Let's talk about everything and then maybe later grab release.
So Marth basically outranges Ness in everything, except, apparently a retreated fair (which isn't very useful in terms of damage). Marth has a better air and ground game than Ness does. I believe Marth's fairs come out quicker than Ness' do.
Ness has can juggle Marth in the air though with his PK thunder, which Marth can barely stop. Not only this but Marth can be gimped by Ness, although the opposite applies to Ness- where Marth can gimp Ness.
PK fire isn't very useful, because a miss can lead to you getting punished real badly. Also Marth's sweetspots are a pain, no matter who you are. You have no choice but to play defensive, and try and punish on every single move he makes, because he has an absolute advantage on you. All in all, my final verdict would be that the match up be a 70:30 in Marth's favor, WITHOUT grab release. With grab release, i'd say possibly 75-80 for Marth.
Edit: Forgot to mention that Marth can use his upB to get out of PKFire (or so i've heard).
More edit: Okay so i read another post mentioning that Ness' Nair comes out fast. But the thing with it, is that it doesn't have the proper range to compete with any of marth's moves, so Nair can only be used if you are close to him, which is difficult to get to, since good Marths would space their moves and not let you stay near them. And if they do, they must be planning something besides a grab release.
So Marth basically outranges Ness in everything, except, apparently a retreated fair (which isn't very useful in terms of damage). Marth has a better air and ground game than Ness does. I believe Marth's fairs come out quicker than Ness' do.
Ness has can juggle Marth in the air though with his PK thunder, which Marth can barely stop. Not only this but Marth can be gimped by Ness, although the opposite applies to Ness- where Marth can gimp Ness.
PK fire isn't very useful, because a miss can lead to you getting punished real badly. Also Marth's sweetspots are a pain, no matter who you are. You have no choice but to play defensive, and try and punish on every single move he makes, because he has an absolute advantage on you. All in all, my final verdict would be that the match up be a 70:30 in Marth's favor, WITHOUT grab release. With grab release, i'd say possibly 75-80 for Marth.
Edit: Forgot to mention that Marth can use his upB to get out of PKFire (or so i've heard).
More edit: Okay so i read another post mentioning that Ness' Nair comes out fast. But the thing with it, is that it doesn't have the proper range to compete with any of marth's moves, so Nair can only be used if you are close to him, which is difficult to get to, since good Marths would space their moves and not let you stay near them. And if they do, they must be planning something besides a grab release.
I don't even know if the dashing grab works marth's dashing grab is slow. Even if it does it doesn't add too much damage.
Err if you are going to try to up b out of pk fire you're doing a bad thing because Ness' could just run up shield and punish your landing lag or even PK fire again safely. You are better off just smash DI'ing out of it. Same way if you want to dancing blade out of it you are still taking more damage than you want to inflict.
Err if you are going to try to up b out of pk fire you're doing a bad thing because Ness' could just run up shield and punish your landing lag or even PK fire again safely. You are better off just smash DI'ing out of it. Same way if you want to dancing blade out of it you are still taking more damage than you want to inflict.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Lol.
Seriously grab releases are like drugs to Marth mains. It's like they cannot do proper matchup analyses without them. Grab releases are everywhere in Brawl, and they don't change matchups unless they're fatal. It's not good matchup for Ness still but...
The.End
Smash Cadet
Matchup numbers only determine difficulty in my opinion. a 70:30 to me just explains how difficult it would be to fight a Marth- You have to drastically outplay your opponent, that's all.Meh. I was hoping we could get through this discussion without arbitrary matchup numbers. They don't add anything.
Also, Dolphin Slash does indeed override PSI Fire. Cheers.
But back on topic:
Another thing i'd like to mention is that the Yoyo is also outranged by some of Marth's moves. In fact it's quite dangerous to leave it out and expect him to run into it- because well he might just be in sweetspot range.
If you PSIFire and he tries to DS out of it, i believe he is in a punishing state- soo, just pointing it out, that no matter what he'll be taking some sort of damage.
AdmantNESS
Smash Ace
Also, you can do a lagless aerial Pk Fire from a full jump that still leaves Ness in the air and can have him double jump/aerial or do another Pk Fire that can also be lag canclled.
A situation is if Marth is chasing you in the air and you are above him diagnally. You Pk Fire unexpectedly, giving you some room (happened to me once). Since the fire pillar started right on top right of Marth, its harder to get out (Counter or up-B could still work probably). You would have to DI backwards I would think.
Anyway, as long as you dont use PKF on the ground.
A situation is if Marth is chasing you in the air and you are above him diagnally. You Pk Fire unexpectedly, giving you some room (happened to me once). Since the fire pillar started right on top right of Marth, its harder to get out (Counter or up-B could still work probably). You would have to DI backwards I would think.
Anyway, as long as you dont use PKF on the ground.
thesage
Smash Hero
Marth can counter the pk fire pillar, but you can punish the lag from it cuz he gets burned again right afterwards.
Yeah, they'll either Counter it or just do the Dolphin Slash. Pivot PK Fire.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
I wonder what is better as far as recovery goes...one that is overall predictable but safe to a point...or one that has gimp effect on a certain part of it but can be unpredictable?
Ness' shield can hold from a full DB combo as well...
And I'm pretty sure Ness' Fair beats Marth's Fair in range when non retreated or moved forward...but I'm not sure ATM
Overall I feel being just away from his tip range has Ness with the + as far as certain situations go...but I also feel that PK Thunder is very good at screwing with Marth's defense style to a point...
Oh and Ness' smash attacks are overall punishment tools if anything...
Ness' shield can hold from a full DB combo as well...
And I'm pretty sure Ness' Fair beats Marth's Fair in range when non retreated or moved forward...but I'm not sure ATM
Overall I feel being just away from his tip range has Ness with the + as far as certain situations go...but I also feel that PK Thunder is very good at screwing with Marth's defense style to a point...
Oh and Ness' smash attacks are overall punishment tools if anything...
thesage
Smash Hero
Stop stealing my strategies >_>;
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Anyway...
How do you think your character will do vs. PK Thunder?
Anyway of an out right cancel to it (like a reflector)?
What is your air movement like in general?
How do you think your character will do vs. PK Fire?
How often are you going into the air?
How hard is it to get out of PK Fire? Do you have any moves to look out for when you are locked in it that will get you out/turn the fire on us?
If you have a projectile, what are your thoughts on PSI Magnet?
What is your projectile like normally?
How will PSI Magnet affect your projectile?
What are your main's main KO moves?
What other moves will KO?
What issues do you have with landing a KO move?
What about the gimp game?
Other then eating PK Thunder's head, how would you try to gimp Ness?
What are your main's main gimp moves?
What about the projectile if you have one, how well do you think it will fare at cutting off PKT/restricting its use?
What about defending yourself from Ness' gimp game?
How clear of a path does your recovery go?
How do you think your character will do vs. PK Flash?
How's your character's defensive game?
The Ness' boards thoughts on Ness' main KO moves are his Bair, his Uair, and his Bthrow, some people like me enjoy Ness' bat, how would you avoid those moves at KO %?
What do you use that lets you build damage overall?
How will you get around Ness' defense game (Fair, Nair, Yoyos, all that stuff)?
What is your number opinion on this match up?
So...what else should be added to this list?
How do you think your character will do vs. PK Thunder?
Anyway of an out right cancel to it (like a reflector)?
What is your air movement like in general?
How do you think your character will do vs. PK Fire?
How often are you going into the air?
How hard is it to get out of PK Fire? Do you have any moves to look out for when you are locked in it that will get you out/turn the fire on us?
If you have a projectile, what are your thoughts on PSI Magnet?
What is your projectile like normally?
How will PSI Magnet affect your projectile?
What are your main's main KO moves?
What other moves will KO?
What issues do you have with landing a KO move?
What about the gimp game?
Other then eating PK Thunder's head, how would you try to gimp Ness?
What are your main's main gimp moves?
What about the projectile if you have one, how well do you think it will fare at cutting off PKT/restricting its use?
What about defending yourself from Ness' gimp game?
How clear of a path does your recovery go?
How do you think your character will do vs. PK Flash?
How's your character's defensive game?
The Ness' boards thoughts on Ness' main KO moves are his Bair, his Uair, and his Bthrow, some people like me enjoy Ness' bat, how would you avoid those moves at KO %?
What do you use that lets you build damage overall?
How will you get around Ness' defense game (Fair, Nair, Yoyos, all that stuff)?
What is your number opinion on this match up?
So...what else should be added to this list?
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
They don't care! How rude!
AdmantNESS
Smash Ace
Post in that topic you made.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
It was locked.
xoxokev
Smash Lord
xoxokev
Smash Lord
What's the best way to smash DI out of the dancing blade?
AdmantNESS
Smash Ace
Smash the C and Control Sticks backwards I would guess.
FireKirby7
Smash Lord
Doesn't work, I always try it... Marf moves forward in her Side B.
Maybe DIing towards Marf would work. I can't test it, but I'll try it next time I play a Marf.
Maybe DIing towards Marf would work. I can't test it, but I'll try it next time I play a Marf.
Levitas
the moon
SDI towards marth makes the most sense if you have a shot of escaping it. If you're in the middle, you're gonna be hit, but try up anyways. If you're being hit by the low last hit, up will net you the least damage and you'll be the safest if you get hit by the strong part.
xoxokev
Smash Lord
thanks, one more question about marth... we always say "if spaced correctly," ness' fair can outrange marth's... how do we perform a "correctly spaced" fair? or maybe i'm going crazy and ness really can't outrange it...
p.s. this applies to g&w's bair also
EDIT: (maybe i should have posted this in the Q&A thread... oh well too late now haha)
p.s. this applies to g&w's bair also
EDIT: (maybe i should have posted this in the Q&A thread... oh well too late now haha)
Levitas
the moon
Telegraph Ness's fair by moving backwards for maximum range. It'll only hit if you can convince your opponent to chase you closely in the air, so I believe that saying if you space it right is misleading. It's more like "if you space it right and your opponent plays along"
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Marth's Fair is faster than Ness' as well...yeah overall Nair and PKT are the best tools for this match up IMO (I find Nair to be useful for when you are in his face as normal just like how it is for other characters)
I really don't see what is wrong with PK Fire as a spacing tool as well...but whatever...anyway to compare some data...Marth's air speed is greater than Ness' but Ness is a bit more floaty...
I really don't see what is wrong with PK Fire as a spacing tool as well...but whatever...anyway to compare some data...Marth's air speed is greater than Ness' but Ness is a bit more floaty...
Levitas
the moon
Marth is lighter than ness which I find really funny.
Canvasofgrey
Smash Ace
I noticed that there's no Ganondorf on the list. Hahaha. XD
I wouldn't use PK fire alot against Marth because players that use him have a big tendency to rely on short hops, and PK fire just sails right underneath them and you might just eat a Fair or Fsmash from PK Fire's omfg lag.
Personally, I would like to utilize insta-release PK bomb. It ruins some approaches for Marth, and usually makes them airdodge. You can sometimes follow up with a grab as they hit the ground, but I prefer to go with jabs or Dtilt.
I wouldn't use PK fire alot against Marth because players that use him have a big tendency to rely on short hops, and PK fire just sails right underneath them and you might just eat a Fair or Fsmash from PK Fire's omfg lag.
Personally, I would like to utilize insta-release PK bomb. It ruins some approaches for Marth, and usually makes them airdodge. You can sometimes follow up with a grab as they hit the ground, but I prefer to go with jabs or Dtilt.