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PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

StarLight

StarLight

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jorge199494 said:
I thought we was going to discuss G&W. =\
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure way back when the G&W mains randomly came in to discuss the match-up, PKNintendo made a point of saying he was leaving them for last lol. Of course, that was ages ago, so he may have relented...Somehow I don't think so though.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind seeing Wolf or PT up next. I have a friend that mains both and we tend to go back and forth a lot in our friendlies, so getting some new info would be nice.
 
AdmantNESS

AdmantNESS

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All we can do now is go to the characters that are left: Luc, PT, Wolf, or G/W. And if we can get through those we can try Marth again. If not, we can go other characters that didnt get enough discussion or input then do Marth last.
 
PKNintendo

PKNintendo

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Good Idea. Mind doing Lucario?
(like posting the message I mean)

Don't want to be ignored again, and the Marth mains might lock it.
 
AdmantNESS

AdmantNESS

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Post the message on the Lucario boards? I suppose I could.

What do you mean Marths might lock it if you post it? Luc boards arent the Marth boards. Did I read your post wrong?
 
hichez50

hichez50

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I got the message. Ness is usually not a problem for lucario as long as the lucario player controls his use of aura spheres. Lucario defiantly our ranges ness. Lucario is only in trouble when ness has control of the air game. But that doesn't mean lucario cant control it at any time during the game.
 
Uffe

Uffe

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^^^ This guy is right in a way. Of course you can't just judge a few Ness' and assume you're safe. Though I haven't fought too many Lucario's, the ones I have fought are usually dodgy and spammy. His aura hitbox is rather annoying. His bair is pretty good and as for his fair, kind of hard to deal with since these Lucario mains somehow make their character fly in the air multiple times while fairing you off into the blast zone. Anyway, I wouldn't say this match up is actually easy for Ness. Hopefully we can get more people who've fought more Lucario's than I and vise versa.
 
PKNintendo

PKNintendo

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hichez50 said:
I got the message. Ness is usually not a problem for lucario as long as the lucario player controls his use of aura spheres. Lucario defiantly our ranges ness. Lucario is only in trouble when ness has control of the air game. But that doesn't mean lucario cant control it at any time during the game.
Click to expand...
Not in the air though.

And that doesn't mean Ness can't do decent on the ground.
Oh inB4 psi magnet.
 
hichez50

hichez50

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Yeah I hate the sideB to grab combo. If you don't air dodge their next attack which is ussaly a fair ness has that air control I was talking about.
 
AdmantNESS

AdmantNESS

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I fought one or two. Being below him is a bad idea due how fast and strong that dair of his is. Don't be below him unless you think you can get a rising upair on him by surprise or something, but its a bad position nonetheless. If you are both in the air and he is above you but at a distance, you could try a thunder juggle I suppose.

Our magnet has a slow start-up so it wont be easy to absorb his spheres unless its obvious or you predict that he is gonna throw one. Especially those fast big ones. If you can, you can try using the bat to reflect em, though that has a slow-startup slow too, though not as slow as magnet.

Be wary of his extended hit-boxes on his moves especially as he is damaged more and more. Those smashes especially.(nvm) Well, his smashes have good range in any case.

He has quick moves both on the ground and in the air. If he is jabbing you, Di outward before he Side-B(Focus Punch) grabs you and puts more damage on you. Don't let him start to combo you either, his aerials leave you in enough stun for him to aerial you again. So space your fairs and pressure him with your aerials. Ness is best in the air so try to keep him in the air though an aerial battle will be close.

Also, try to KO him fast, the longer the match, the stronger Lucario gets an the momentum he gets.

Thats my two-bits on the matchup. I might be wrong on something though.
 
Timbers

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^Lucs hitboxes don't extend, lol. Aurasphere is the only move to expand.

Last time we discussed this matchup, Ness boards were set on 60:40 Ness advantage lol. Hopefully you guys have become more humble since then.

I'll lurk this thread, don't really have much to say. Don't try combatting an airborne Ness, stay on the defensive until you force him in a bad position. Use utilt to get the pressure off. Fsmash outranges everything he has. Any shielded ness PKT2 can be dsmashed. Etc etc.
 
Uffe

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I've got a question. Does Lucario's strength rise just like his Aura Spheres power when he's at higher percent or what?
 
Canvasofgrey

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Uffe said:
I've got a question. Does Lucario's strength rise just like his Aura Spheres power when he's at higher percent or what?
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Yes, as a general rule, I think Lucario's strength gains 1% of every 2% he's damaged. I think 180% is the cap. So you divide 180 by 2, Lucario gains about 90% increased attack strength when at 180%., so double the percent of his moves during that time. Also, Lucario gains and losses strength pending on how far behind or ahead he is in stock. I think it's 10% plus and minus on stocks, capping at 3. So if he's behind 3 stocks, he gains 30% additional increase, and he loses 30% when he's ahead 3 stocks.

(I don't know the exact mathematics, so you probably would get a more precise answer asking a Lucario main or one of the smash researchers. All I know is that he's a powerhouse at high percents).
 
Uffe

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Canvasofgrey said:
Yes, as a general rule, I think Lucario's strength gains 1% of every 2% he's damaged. I think 180% is the cap. So you divide 180 by 2, Lucario gains about 90% increased attack strength when at 180%., so double the percent of his moves during that time. Also, Lucario gains and losses strength pending on how far behind or ahead he is in stock. I think it's 10% plus and minus on stocks, capping at 3. So if he's behind 3 stocks, he gains 30% additional increase, and he loses 30% when he's ahead 3 stocks.

(I don't know the exact mathematics, so you probably would get a more precise answer asking a Lucario main or one of the smash researchers. All I know is that he's a powerhouse at high percents).
Click to expand...
See, I obviously wasn't sure of this, but I was beginning to wonder and have actually been meaning to ask. The math part doesn't really concern me as much as having the knowledge of my opponent getting stronger over the increased damage he gains.

Lucario = The Incredible Hulk
 
Browny

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off the top of my head,

assume 0% lucario is 1x damage. he continues to do 1x damage until 25%. up until 170% where he is doing 2x damage, it is a linear relationship, so he is at 1.5xdamage/knockback at about 97.5%. for every stock ahead he loses 0.1x, for every stock behind he ganins 0.2x.

So in a very simple sense,

knockback multiplier = (1 + stock multiplier)*(% lucario is on / 72.5)

I hope that make sense...
 
Aurasmash14

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Ness' powerful throws can fling lucario v.v. far away and he hates being upthrowed. but because of his aura your gonna have to kill him quick which if your fighting an experienced Lucario isnt gonna be that easy. And Lucario's love to pull a surprise attack especially with AS to people who have an edge over projectiles. and because of Ness' type of recovery avoid being pushed too far. this is when the AS edgeguard or the ledgegames begin. And do your best not to make a mistake like being combo'ed or falling for his mind games. his combos can easily deal 35% in a matter of seconds and his mindgames are setups to more combos or a kill. hope this helps :)
 
Timbers

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_clinton

_clinton

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I've got plenty of Lucario exp. from a few people who have made combo videos of him...I'll post later after I'm no longer pissed off @ certain things.

Here is a highlight video the guy made...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmjrQgcZPdg

I don't know...I think the match is mostly even for the most part...but if I had to give favor to anyone...it would be Ness...although it wouldn't be by much
 
Cacti

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PKT2 is not completely useless. If you can mindgame it, you can sometimes hit the opponent. It's one of his less reliable kill moves.

Although I don't have much Lucario experience, I don't think up throw wuold be that bad for him. His dair cuts through our uair and PKT, so we can't do much to him. Of course, he can't do much to us either.
 
PK-ow!

PK-ow!

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If you are getting Luc-combo'd off the map for a gimp kill, DI/drift AWAY FROM THE AURA POKEMON.

I know it takes prescience (and presence) to do it, not to mention balls, but anything you can do to screw up his aim, or give you a better chance for your return.... you gotta take it. Because when your death is assured if you play it the other way, why not try something different?

~~~~

As for this matchup... it should be closer to our game (still at least their slight advantage). Lucario has some weaknesses, like that floaty fall speed, which we should be able to annoy with our PK thunder.

I mean, Lucario user, what are you thinking if you get chased with PKT when you're high, or horizontally displaced from us (without AS)?

Ness probably wants to try to position Lucario for a gimp. I learned this in Chess, but apparently it holds as a general rule that someone who tries to play to trap or ambush the opponent, himself gives the opponent the ability to control his spacing and positioning.
I learned it through getting owned by an expert when I tried the former strategy (shortly after learning stuff on "key squares"). He then told me what I just said. He used what I was doing *the fact of what I was doing* to control me.
EDIT: I want to make clear this is not a reversal of the strategy. Lucario is doing X, and when you do X, you give the opponent the option for Y. Y kind of mirrors X, but it is not X.

So, correct me if I'm horribly wrong, but Lucario is a character that plays like me in that Chess game, right? So his opponents should be able - character-generally - to manipulate and maneuver the Lucario themselves. Inasmuch as Lucario is trying to be defensive, he creates that weakness in himself.

Then, given that we have this chink in his armor, I'm just thinking that Ness players want Lucario to die as soon as possible each stock, since their weight is comparable... and the way for that would be gimping. If we can move Lucario to the edge, we can then use our gimpy tricks like a bitter fair (nonsweet, I'm so clever), or forward throw, and then abuse Lucario's recovery.... and try to spike.
Or at least abuse him with PSI attacks for his recovery.
 
thesage

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They both have really gay cgs on each other lmao. Lucas's is an infinite will Ness' is basically a 0-death combo.
 
thesage

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How many frames does it take for Lucas's grab to come out?

How many frames does it take for Ness' running grab to come out?
 
:mad:

:mad:

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What's this? Lucario and Olimar talk?
Which one are we discussing?
 
Levitas

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sage, 10 or 11 frames (I forget) disadvantage for ness and grab on 13 for lucas. I counted a 2 frame window for a spotdodge to work for ness (frame 1 is vulnerable, though).

You can't buffer this, and don't try to roll or it does work.

Neither character can buffer, so pretty much whoever times it better gets their way.
 
Neon Ness

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_clinton said:
Olimar is evil...but at least Nair, PK Fire, and the bat can shine pretty well in that fight to a point...
Click to expand...
O_O​

Since when...?

If you're close enough to PK Fire, you're close enough to get grabbed.

And as far as aerial PK Fire... Still... good luck hitting with that. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad or something.
 
Uffe

Uffe

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While that's a good method, it doesn't always work. As for PK Fires range, it goes much further than Olimar's grab.
 
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