Leech Seed and Stealth Rocks and Spikes, Oh My!: Stage Analyses (Updated)

Retro Gaming · Jul 10, 2008

It's about time the Pokemon Trainer boards branched out into this category, so an ample thread to do it in has been created. As you may have taken from the title, the purpose of this particular thread is to discuss, in full detail, the advantages of all tournament-useable stages for the Pokemon Trainer. Some of the things I hope we can cover:

Specific Pokemon Advantages/ Disadvantages
Which characters fare badly on the stage (For Counterpicking)
General strategy on a specifc stage

The catch is, it's going to be for a lot of stages. Stealing conceptual design from the Type Chart, I was hoping we could take a week to focus on each stage. Obviously, new findings warrants opening it back up, but the main focus should lie on the weekly stage.

Smash Back-Room Recommended Stage List (Italicized Stages Completed)

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Starter/Counter
Castle Siege
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counter
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)

Counter/Banned
Green Greens
Mario Circuit
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Skyworld

Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware

Smashville said:
Smashville is not a particularly good or bad stage for Pokémon Trainer. Considering that Smashville is one of the closest stages to “neutral” in the game, it should be of no surprise that this stage is not the best stage to pick if you want to gain an advantage over a certain character. The most important thing to note is that, at moderately-low percentages, all three Pokémon are capable of getting some early kills if they play on the platform off-stage. It should be noted that being on the platform is otherwise bad positioning: all three of the Pokémon are weak to approaches from below.

Pictochat said:
Pictochat is one of the more interesting stages, and seems to offer significant boosts to both Squirtle and Ivysaur. The “neutral-state” of the stage is ideal for both Pokémon: Squirtle has a less restricted off-stage game while Ivysaur is significantly more difficult to gimp due to a long, low platform and the occasional platform transformations. Several of the other transformations are worth noting, as well. All three Pokémon can make use of the spikes, bullets, and fire that appear with their grab game, and, especially in the case of the first two, tack on significant damage. Transformations that create walls that can be exited but not entered also sometimes appear and give good opportunities for switching. It should be noted that several of the hazards of fire elemental properties; Ivysaur should avoid these at all costs.

Steeler · Jul 10, 2008

well, all three pokemon have strong enough throws to easily kill from the platform when it's near the boundarys. i THINK charizard can glide under the main platform but don't quote me on that.

also i was JUST wondering about the lack of counterpick stage picks for the latest entries...

anyway, considering the three different styles that pt has, it'll be hard to counterpick because you have the advantage, it'll be more because the opponent has a disadvantage

if you get what i'm sayin!?

Retro Gaming · Jul 10, 2008

I wish I would have gotten a replay of this, but here's what I was talking about:

I was playing Squirtle versus Marth. Yes, I'm trying to find some good that the little turtle can do, but I'll take that to the Squirtle thread in a bit. The important thing is I realized how much Squirtle (And probably Charizard) loves that platform.

It's a little situational to get it set-up, but not quite as much as other things. but with Squirtle, you can chain multiple Fthrows together with that. It's like any other linked grab (Think Charizard,) except I was doing it at much higher than the standard low percentages. This was about at 60% with Squirtle's small grab range. Imagine What Charizard could do.

What I'm thinking is that Charizard is going to be able to do this infinitely better, but the best part is that once Charizard reaches the end, he's in a perfect position to edgeguard. The one thing I would love to test though is that, while the platform is turning around, if it's possible to use your grab attack for a little white and then Bthrow into Fthrow in the opposite direction.

No, I don't have many concrete details. However, this is worth a test, it's really hot.

About the counter-pick: That's what I meant. It's so you can compare which Pokemon does badly on a stage and which opponent does badly on the stage. For example, let's say you're looking for a Counterpick for Marth. Let's say Stage X completely destroys Marth and Squirtle but has the other two neutral. Obviously, you'll want to go that stage because you should be minimalizing Squirtle, anyway.

Steeler · Jul 10, 2008

mhmm. good point retro. on that note ivy should never go anywhere near frigate orpheon :\

so i assume the chaingrab works because you are throwing in the direction of the platform's travel anyway?

Retro Gaming · Jul 10, 2008

Yes, but I don't know how legit of a chain-grab it is.

I ban Frigate Orpheon because of Ivysaur.

johnmcgerber · Jul 10, 2008

who does ivys chain grab work on besides squartle i hevent tried it on everone yet

Retro Gaming · Jul 10, 2008

Wrong place for that.

Anyway, I just did some more tests on the platform thing, but I can't seem to reproduce it to the same extent I could last night, so I'll attribute it to an opponent with poor DI. Here's what I could get to work with Squirtle and Charizard:

If you're on the tip of the platform nearest your opponent while moving away from them, you can grab them, do a Bthrow (In the direction the platform is moving) and get a regrab for a Fthrow or maybe a Bthrow if the platform changes directions soon enough. This seems to work until approimately 30%.

Same scenario as above, but your opponent approaches you from the direction the platform is moving. You can link two Fthrows together.

The interesting thing to note is that, similar to the chain-grab tall characters can perform on Squirtle, grabbing someone while you're on the edge of this platform causes it to happen to every character. It doesn't move fast enough to give you the ability to grab again, but I'm almost certain you can get in any aerial.

Elliot Gale · Jul 10, 2008

Squirtle can actually chain two Fthrows together at low percents on a lot of characters without using that platform. He can then follow up with a dash attack, which means you've dealt around 27%.

Smashville isn't a bad stage for PT, but it doesn't give them any advantages that it doesn't give to other characters. Try to score some cheap early kills when the platform is near the edge, that's about it.

Retro Gaming · Jul 10, 2008

I know Squirtle can do it without the platform, it's just last night I chained three or four together because of the platform. I guess it was just poor DI, though.

Anyway, all I learned is that if you're ever in the position described above, I would just tack on the extra two grabs.

Are there any characters that particularly dislike Smashville? I know Snake and ROB will like it. It might interfere with Metaknight a little bit because of the moving platform.

Elliot Gale · Jul 10, 2008

I don't see why either of them particularly like it. They die earlier, have less room to maneuver, and don't gain anything at all from it. PT doesn't care about the lack of space and has better gimp game here.

Meta doesn't care about the platform at all lol. And he loves being able to kill earlier. He dies anyway, so he doesn't care about dying himself.

Retro Gaming · Jul 10, 2008

D=

I thought Snake would like using Dsmash on that platform, to be honest. I'll retract ROB because of the paltform. But he definately likes Final Destination.

So whut characters hate this stage, then?

Elliot Gale · Jul 10, 2008

I don't think there are any that hate smashville. It's debated to be the most neutral stage in the game.

Also, we're lucky Squirtle knows Rapid Spin.

Cat Fight · Jul 10, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
I know Squirtle can do it without the platform, it's just last night I chained three or four together because of the platform. I guess it was just poor DI, though.

Anyway, all I learned is that if you're ever in the position described above, I would just tack on the extra two grabs.

Are there any characters that particularly dislike Smashville? I know Snake and ROB will like it. It might interfere with Metaknight a little bit because of the moving platform.

Smashville has never been a favorite of mine when using Snake. There's no platforms for Nair abuse, pseudoCG > Utilt, or for C4/grenade planting.

I barely even bother with C4ing the moving platform anymore. I'd rather just keep **** on the ground or save my C4 for recovery.

Sorry if this is distracting from the actual topic discussion, just thought I'd add my two cents about it.

PkTrainerCris · Jul 10, 2008

Yeah!! frigate orpheon is like ivysaur's graveyard..... its so sad........... well, i might not contribute on this thread a lot because of the fact i play in every stage and dont bother about counterpicks XD, also, retro gaming, nice find with the semi cahin grab in smallville thing.

Charizard92 · Jul 10, 2008

Ditto (ignore any puns)

Steeler · Jul 10, 2008

that's interesting cf, thanks for your input. we'll put that to use in the snake analysis!

Elliot Gale · Jul 10, 2008

I vote Pictochat for counterpicking with PT. They love it so.

Retro Gaming · Jul 10, 2008

Elliot Gale said:
I don't think there are any that hate smashville. It's debated to be the most neutral stage in the game.

Also, we're lucky Squirtle knows Rapid Spin.

I know it's meant to be the most neutral stage. Squirtle's got like twenty different forms of Rapid Spin. Dsmash, Dtilt, Dair, Nair. @_o

Cat Fight said:
Smashville has never been a favorite of mine when using Snake. There's no platforms for Nair abuse, pseudoCG > Utilt, or for C4/grenade planting.

I barely even bother with C4ing the moving platform anymore. I'd rather just keep **** on the ground or save my C4 for recovery.

Sorry if this is distracting from the actual topic discussion, just thought I'd add my two cents about it.

No, it's fine. I guess I'm just stupid about stages.

Thanks for your opinion.

Charizard92 · Jul 10, 2008

Do any of us actually KNOW what stages are good CPs?!

Elliot Gale · Jul 10, 2008

Elliot Gale said:
I vote Pictochat for counterpicking with PT. They love it so.

way2read

10cherubis

infernovia · Jul 11, 2008

Yeah, I saw mic use the fire thingy with charizard's uthrow.

It was pretty awesome.

Elliot Gale · Jul 12, 2008

Can we move on now? D=

Toby. · Jul 19, 2008

I think it's time to move past smashville and latch onto another unsuspected stage. Battlefield would be nice, but I'm not picky.

Elliot Gale · Jul 28, 2008

Reasons PT likes Pictochat:

Long platform that is both low to the bottom and close to the sides means Ivysaur is gimped a lot less than normal. Ivysaur still maintains its KO ability.

Charizard doesn't gain much of anything, but he doesn't lose out on anything either. Kills more or less the same, gimps like a beast.

Squirtle has more room to maneuver, which is a plus. He can gimp very well here, seeing as the edge of the stage is so close to the end of the platform. Dair yeayuhz.

Charizard92 · Jul 28, 2008

You guys don't have a clue on stages do you? as an active participant on the Stage legality discussion, I Often use Squirtle as an example on how a weak Character can KO easier under certain conditions (eg. Squirtle can lure a character like Bowser near a walk off, grab, and throw). However, I don't typically look at tactics for PT by these stages so I can't help you here.

Retro Gaming · Jul 28, 2008

Elliot Gale said:
Reasons PT likes Pictochat:

Long platform that is both low to the bottom and close to the sides means Ivysaur is gimped a lot less than normal. Ivysaur still maintains its KO ability.

Charizard doesn't gain much of anything, but he doesn't lose out on anything either. Kills more or less the same, gimps like a beast.

Squirtle has more room to maneuver, which is a plus. He can gimp very well here, seeing as the edge of the stage is so close to the end of the platform. Dair yeayuhz.

Moving on to Pictochat.

I agree on all and it's starting to be one of my favorites. For the record, Ivysaur can "jab lock" on the fenced part. Either they take the jabs or DI upwards and get hit by the tip.

Ivysaur is even safer considering the stage occasionally gives free platforms on both sides, and all three Pokemon like the floating hazards that come about because they all share a solid grab game.

On the other side, Ivysaur doesn't like the fact that there are several fire hazards. =/

Other character discussion?

Fearmy · Jul 30, 2008

Pictochat i feel shouldn't Even Be a Valid CP. The Diagonal Line that appears Hurts Charizard due to him not being able to Rock Smash, or Use U-smash To kill at that momment. Then again Ivysaur can't use the Smashes Either. Squirtle does fine in the Fire Hazard. The Spikes is probably Hurtful to Ivysaur. not much to say really xD.

Elliot Gale · Jul 30, 2008

Mind you that certain parts of the stage may never even come up. The one I personally hate most is the billion tiny platforms.

Kemious · Jul 30, 2008

Picto chat is PTs home base. Each helps. The fire hazard while damaging Ivysaur is one of His favs hazards. BS his grab game as well as his can easily knock someone into to them. Granted were talking about Leaf booming before your approach to figure out what your gonna do. Charizard loves the Missile, wind and spear simply because it makes DI out of Flamethrower not only difficult or damaging but also makes it so that you can hit with your ftilt with little problem. Squirtle loves the diagonal line as it makes his makes it difficult for his opponent to avoid his assualts the billion platforms make approaching from any direction with out fear of being hit easy. Ill go into more later

Knyaguy · Jul 30, 2008

Title: There is no leech seed in brawl only Bullet seed.

Retro Gaming · Jul 30, 2008

Figures that the PT likes a stage that switches often.

Knyaguy · Aug 16, 2008

I like the Tree form the best, whats your favourites?

Retro Gaming · Aug 16, 2008

The spikes or the huge bullets are really my favorite to use. The fire isn't as damaging or knockback-ing as I'd like.

Steeler · Aug 17, 2008

pictochat annoys the hell out of me lol. but it can give you some good situations to switch so...it may actually be a really good stage for pt.

Trip. · Aug 17, 2008

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:
pictochat annoys the hell out of me lol. but it can give you some good situations to switch so...it may actually be a really good stage for pt.

This is a good point. That is very relevant.

But a draw back is when you are Zard or Ivy, the two more sluggish Characterss, and you are against a one of the wall like things that pops up. It isnt a fun time.

Fearmy · Aug 17, 2008

i started out as Ivysaur, I Jump, and the missiles appeared right above where i am about to hit, Sent me flying and did 58% to me right off the bat 0.0 oh and this was a doubles Tourney

Toby. · Aug 17, 2008

Lets stay productive.

I have two bullet seed related questions.

1)Are the bullets low enough to hit people getting bullet seeded? If so that would be mighty fine indeed.

2)Can you use a running bullet seed in the spear section to pop people onto the spikes? It would only really work if you are both moving towards each other so that he is already DI'ing towards you. Then when you collide, he would get knocked back behind you...onto a spike?

They could both be completely impossibly and/or impractical, but I just thought I'd get the ball rolling with a couple ideas.

Trip. · Aug 17, 2008

We need to know if they blow on certain stages too.

We arent just saying every stage is good for PT.

We are also trying to figure out what stages we should avoid.

Retro Gaming · Aug 17, 2008

We are also trying to figure out what stages we should avoid.

Frigate Orpheon.

Anyway, as for tcranter's post: I do not think the Bullets are low enough, or else they'd have to be near the top of the stream already and could get out really easily. Also, situational. You 'dunknow when the Bullets are coming.

I don't know about the fence section. It's honestly better to jab them into one of the rails.

Knyaguy · Aug 17, 2008

Retro Gaming said:
Frigate Orpheon.

Details please?

Leech Seed and Stealth Rocks and Spikes, Oh My!: Stage Analyses (Updated)

Black and White Thinking

Smash Hero

Black and White Thinking

Smash Hero

Black and White Thinking

Smash Cadet

Black and White Thinking

Smash Ace

Black and White Thinking

Smash Ace

Black and White Thinking

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Black and White Thinking

Smash Champion

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Champion

Black and White Thinking

Smash Ace

Smash Ace

Smash Apprentice

Smash Lord

Black and White Thinking

Smash Lord

Black and White Thinking

Smash Hero

Smash Apprentice

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Smash Apprentice

Black and White Thinking

Smash Lord

Information

Network