Fox Match-Up General Discussion

He is easily juggled and gimped by a fast character like Fox. In general, Charizard may be the best pokemon, but he has trouble against a lot of faster characters.

random..... teh noob, you live in laurel, r u goin to BTYF? if so, I wanna mm u or friendly u to further find out about this matchup

Oh crap Laurel tourney I can't believe I didn't know. Thanks man that is insanely close, the venue used to be the place where I took karate one summer. I'm not positive if I can make it, but I'll try I haven't gone to a tourney before and it's not possible for anything to be closer to me.

Squirtle: 55:40 (Maybe 60:40) favor Squirtle.

Fox's advantage on Squirtle mainly deals with Squirtle's weight. Being so light, it doesn't surprise me if you can Star KO Squirtle with a Usmash at 55-60% on Final Destination. Fox is also fast, so he can easily chase after Squirtle and throw him out of balance when Squirtle gets a bit lazy. Fox's ground game is roughly better than Squirtle's if you include all the techs that Fox and Squirtle has including boost grab, Pivots, Shell shift, hydroplane, etc. However, Squirtle's Disjointed hitboxes will get you if you can't space well, so it depends on your skill of spacing out your stronger moves. Also, you can't laser Squirtle, And I LoL with Fox players who try to ground approach me if they can't laser me while I'm crawling. You rely too much on Dsmash and Usmash for killing, and a good squirtle player who knows that will never stay on the ground too long for you to utilize that advantage.

Squirtle's advantage is very clear on Fox. One of the main reasons is Squirtle's utilt lock on Fox. Squirtle's utilt lock (properly done) on Fox can get him from 0-80% to a guaranteed grab after that. (Sam applies to Falco, except that Falco can get out of the utilt lock earlier on) For this reason, and the fac that Utilt lock is easy to set-up Squirtle can really screw Fox up early on. Squirtle can also easily jab lock Fox (And Squritle's first jab comes out in 1 frame) Squirtle's Aerial game is also better than Fox's because it out prioritizes the fox anthro. The only thing that Fox has aerial wise against Squirtle is that Fox's Uair can beat Squirtle's Dair, but Squirtle will rarely if ever approach you from above in that sense. Squirtle's water gun can mess with Fox's recovery since Fox's recovery is a bit meager.

Squirtle can Gimp Fox out of all his recoverys with a Fair (Strong). Never underestimate Squirtle's Gimping power.



Ivysaur 45:55 favor Fox

Fox is obviously faster than Ivysaur, that's his big advantage really. However, Ivysaur's Bullet Seed will kick Fox in the butt if he doesn't have knowledge on the match up. Due to Fox's gravity, he bites Bullet seed harder than most characters (Excluding big ones), so don't be surprised if (with proper DI) You get yourself up 40-50%. Watch out for Nair to Bullet seed combo. And I laugh when Fox players think they can Dair to Usmash on my when I'm charging a Usmash. Due to your fast fall speed, it is both a bless and a curse to you. Of course, this assumes that the Pokemon trainer knows the Fox matchup. Your best bet with anything is to Shield alot on an aggressive Ivysaur player. A more passive, defensive Ivysaur is the kind you have to watch out for.

Ivysuar's game both in the air and on the ground is being within mid-range of the opponent. Ivysaur's attacks have more reach and more disjoint than Fox's so you have to use your speed to punish instead of be totally aggressive (Aggressive fox's will bite a Bullet seed, grab, or Ftilt). Ivysaur actually has the advantage when edgeguarding Fox since Razor leaf will stop your firebutt. Come from above, you'll eat a sweetspot UpB, and Both Vine whip and Fsmash will knock you out of Fox's side B if spaced properly. Bair will also get you out of firefox when spaced properly, and you'll find that Ivysaur's Bair is hard to minimalize so you can get in a Usmash for KO. I giggle when Fox players try to do that.

The key with Ivysaur is that he's most dangerous when he's spacing properly. Fox beats Ivysaur once you get inside his Zone of Vulnerablity (Which is really up close or far away enough where you can spam lasers).



Charizard 55:45 (60:40 maybe) Charizard favor

Charizard being the "best" pokemon is very subjective, and that kind of mentally will only get you killed when you underestimate Squirtle and Ivysaur. Anyway...

Charizard's advantage is his mid-range game and his grab. Unlike Ivysaur who is best as Mid-range, Charizard is good both up close and mid-range. His grabs are long, his throws have good knockback, and his aerials are subjectively very good when applied correctly. However, Fox has to use speed to his advantage and the fact that charizard is BIG and slow in the air. You'll find it very hard to Usmash him due to Charizard's Rocksmash. And because Fox's gravity is so large, he'll bite a 45% rocksmash more often than other characters. And a 45% rock smash guarantee's Charizard either a grab or a Usmash on the ground.

Charizard is surprisingly very good at gimping, especially against Fox. His Fair will beat All of Fox's recovery options when spaced (Though if you're lucky, you'll trade hits if you fire fox into his Fair). Charizard's Bair is very powerful, and your worst fear when facing a Charizard is the fact that Charizar'd flamethrower on edgeguard will beat all your recovery options since it out prioritizes Fire Fox and SideB. You have to recover high in that case, else you'll just fight a losing battle trying to recover. Also, remember that Charizard has Superarmor on his UpB, and his glide attack hitbox covers all around him, so you risk alot if you try to hypen a Usmash when he's gliding. Once again, you'll be shielding a lot of charizard's moves, and your key is to play like Sonic and Punish his mistakes and laggy moves.

for glide attack OoS Usmash works right?

JigglyZelda003 said:

for glide attack OoS Usmash works right?

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Yes. Most of what you can do is Powershield alot of Charizard's moves and punish his laggy behavior. However, that only applies to certain moves.

Also, Beware of the fact that Charizard still carries momentum after a glide attack. I've done it a couple of times where a Fox tried to OoS Usmash, but Chairzard actually drifted on the ground behind Fox, and only got hit with the the soft spot of Fox's Usmash.

Hahaha, I keep editing the little details since I can't really concentrate writing up a full scale PT match up. Too much info to cover over a span of 3 characters. XD

Lightning93 said:

I've always wondered, is the knockback due to percentage taken into account before or after the attack?.

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i read on here somewhere about all that, they said it's calculated after the damage is taken. i don't remember the name of the thread though >.<

Lightning93 said:

I've always wondered, is the knockback due to percentage taken into account before or after the attack?

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? I dont get what your asking =\

I agree with Canvasogfrey, very good post dude
I would give fox a 60-40 against ivy because of that dangerous dsmash, and i think charizard has an 55-45 advantage, he is very good edgeguarding fox, and its not hard for the zard getting fox out of the stage

Honestly I think fox does the best vs Charizard. Hes heavy, susceptible to fox's combos, and has trouble keeping up with fox in general. And there isn't much he can do to avoid camping. The main thing charizard got going is that hes the hardest for fox to gimp.


PS. When it comes time for ratios, do we want to do it for each individual pokemon?

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:

PS. When it comes time for ratios, do we want to do it for each individual pokemon?

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that would most likely be the best option finding an average between all 3 would give an inaccurate ratio for the matchups

I don't understand why Charizard is a difficult fight. If you're talking about gimps, I'm much more scared of Squirtle and Ivy. If you're talking about damage output, fatties = combo heaven for Fox.

As long as you don't get hit by Rock Smash, you should be okay. I repeat: Don't run into that stupid move.

Charizard doesn't feel that bad, closer to even, despite being combolicious

honestly i dont really see where the problem with charizard is either, he gets COMBO'D hard, and really doesn't have any way to escape like alot of other chars, just look out for rocksmash and Ftilt and you should be ok.

gantrain05 said:

honestly i dont really see where the problem with charizard is either, he gets COMBO'D hard, and really doesn't have any way to escape like alot of other chars, just look out for rocksmash and Ftilt and you should be ok.

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Don't forget his d-throw, doesn't it have like one of the highest knockbacks of any throws?

uzimakisensai said:

Don't forget his d-throw, doesn't it have like one of the highest knockbacks of any throws?

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just DI Up and towards the stage and its not too threatening, now...NESS he's got one rediculously gay Bthrow thats a throw u gotta worry about. Just remember to DI UP anytime charizard grabs u and you'll be fine.

his grab range is also quite large.

It depends on the play of the Charizard player. The big advantage that Charizard has over Fox is that Charizard has the melee range that Fox does not. If Charizard player keeps this notion in mind while playing, He'll just simply outspace Fox, and Fox will end up taking more damage that he can dish out with one combo. Dtilt is Charizard's fastest Tilt, and Fox will eat it hard if he apporachs from the ground. Charizard's defense will over come Fox's attacks if he plays right. Oh, and Charizard's jab outreaches most of Fox's moves.

On the same token though, Charizard will take the advantage ONLY if he can out space Fox. Otherwise, Charizard might end up on the losing end of a homicide. I kind of giggle when Fox players say they can just laser Charizard. I probably don't need to explain Charizard's running speed, and grab range compared to the lag that Fox has with lasers.

Dthrow has good knockback, and yes, proper DI with Charizard's Dthrow is to go up. Unfortunately, this is both a Blessing and can curse since DI Up, you're just as vulnerable to a Uthrow, and that comes out much faster, so you'll DI wrong if I know you as the Fox player will just automatically assume that I will Dthrow, I will Uthrow and Screw you over since Uthrow can KO to most people's surprise.

Even if not, I can always just Dthrow you and change to Squirtle. XD

well with the Dthrow i won't DI up until i actually see the fire in my face, otherwise i won't really DI at all lol.

Will kind of be too late on Charizard because his Backthrow and his Uthrow come out rather quickly, almost as fast as Sqruitle's Dthrow. XD You just lose out on DI points really if that's the case.

Canvas, SHDL or SHTL has no landing lag and charizard is big enough to be effectively lazerd for a moment.

Canvasofgrey said:

I kind of giggle when Fox players say they can just laser Charizard. I probably don't need to explain Charizard's running speed, and grab range compared to the lag that Fox has with lasers.

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this makes me wonder how many good foxes you've played vs random aib ppl. good fox's don't just sit there and shoot lasers. short hopped lasers have little lag and keep maneuverability. charizard isnt good in the air, so basically jumping around him and playing as fast as possible limits his options. unless his grab range is as large as d3's, it isnt very hard other than the fact that you get ***** trying to recover.

i think his grab range is almost as big as DDDs, cause Zeldas grab has almost the same reach as DDDs, and charizardsa mouth is visibly bigger.

SnowballBob33 said:

this makes me wonder how many good foxes you've played vs random aib ppl. good fox's don't just sit there and shoot lasers. short hopped lasers have little lag and keep maneuverability. charizard isnt good in the air, so basically jumping around him and playing as fast as possible limits his options. unless his grab range is as large as d3's, it isnt very hard other than the fact that you get ***** trying to recover.

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Apparently not many. If I see a giant red lizard with wings gliding towards me, my first thought isn't "Stand and shoot lasers" it's "Stay on the move and keep the lasers flying." Operative phrase "Stay on the move"

if at deathpercents my first thought is OoS Usmash usuallly. if not the you run away.

SnowballBob33 said:

unless his grab range is as large as d3's, it isnt very hard other than the fact that you get ***** trying to recover.

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His grab is larger than D3's, in fact.

That's right... fear the teeth.

GuruKid said:

His grab is larger than D3's, in fact.

That's right... fear the teeth.

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I was going to say that- it is the longest non-tether grab in the game... I spam it when I play as Charizard and it works. Expect a dthrow at 120%... but like you guys said it's easy to DI if you see it coming.

gurukid has an awesome sig.

bullet seed OoS destroys everything because it has invincibility frames 1-3, and hits on 4. and fox's hitboxes always put him in bullet seed zones. i should start using it.

charizard is fat. that's probably 60/40 fox advantage. still has great KO power and can edgeguard/gimp very well with flamethrower/fair/bair/dtilt/dair spikes. hit the rock smash boulder (which does come out on frame 2) with one of your own attacks and you'll take the damage.

squirtle's cool.

Yeah, but Fox can reflect Rock Smash, can't he? I'm only asking this because I think it's happened to me before.

I'm no expert on this matchup, but I'll put my general impressions forward.

I agree with Steeler's comments on Bullet Seed, and Ivy can pretty much go even with Fox but Ivy's smashes and tilts have better range.I'd say 55-45 or 60-40 Ivy.

I think Squirtle can u-tilt lock Fox just like he can Falco. If that's the case, I'd say at least 60-40 Squirtle. Squirtle is faster than Fox, but Fox is still fast and has more power. They are pretty even except for the lock. If there's no lock, 50-50. If there is, Just to pin a definite number, since that's a good 60 percent, I'll say 65-35 Squirtle's favor

Charizard is a big target, but he does have some fast attacks that can keep up with Fox. If he can hit with a good Flamethrower and/or a sweet-spotted Rock Smash, his chances will greatly improve. I'd say 45-55 Fox's advantage.

I think Squirtle can u-tilt lock Fox just like he can Falco. If that's the case, I'd say at least 60-40 Squirtle. Squirtle is faster than Fox, but Fox is still fast and has more power. They are pretty even except for the lock. If there's no lock, 50-50. If there is, Just to pin a definite number, since that's a good 60 percent, I'll say 65-35 Squirtle's favor

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Unless the lock is 1) easier to get than Falco's CG and 2) does more damage than Falco's CG, there's no way that swings it 65-35. And you can DI out before 60. The lock doesn't really factor into this matchup as much as you're making it, and the rest of Squirtle's options and response make this, at best, 55:45 Squirtle (and even that is pushing it).

I agree with Steeler's comments on Bullet Seed, and Ivy can pretty much go even with Fox but Ivy's smashes and tilts have better range.I'd say 55-45 or 60-40 Ivy.

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wut. This really makes no sense, and is not how you should be looking at matchup discussion. I think you should take some more time to analyze what changes matchups, not to mention that your numbers are more or less arbitrary.

Charizard is a big target, but he does have some fast attacks that can keep up with Fox. If he can hit with a good Flamethrower and/or a sweet-spotted Rock Smash, his chances will greatly improve. I'd say 45-55 Fox's advantage.

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And if Fox can hit an 80% combo, his chances will greatly improve. Do you see what I did there? Your general impressions really aren't contributing much to this matchup discussion - it's not analyzing the movesets, ability, or difficulty of the matchup, and is instead you pointing out things that inflate the ratio to ridiculous numbers based off a single thing. Unless you're Sheik and we're talking about the Ftilt lock, NO.

tl;dr: You're wrong.

sorry to interrupt the conversation, but the marth matchup got worse for you guys, dthrow cg into tipper fsmash for 51-53% and a likely gimp ko

luckily you need to be at 0% to start it, but still

i thought Marth couldn't do that anymore?

he can dthrow cg to 13-14 if you buffer it, + tipper is only about 22% more damage

tldr the guy doesn't know what he's talkin bout

itsthebigfoot said:

sorry to interrupt the conversation, but the marth matchup got worse for you guys, dthrow cg into tipper fsmash for 51-53% and a likely gimp ko

luckily you need to be at 0% to start it, but still

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Da Fack....Marth is a jerk...we are never going to be done with him =3.

*resumes lurking the PT discussion*

t3h n00b said:

Oh crap Laurel tourney I can't believe I didn't know. Thanks man that is insanely close, the venue used to be the place where I took karate one summer. I'm not positive if I can make it, but I'll try I haven't gone to a tourney before and it's not possible for anything to be closer to me.

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OMFG you should go!!! I wanna fight a person that knows PT so I can participate in the discussion instead of lurk like a bish.

Lol don't worry NVB I'm sure we've all had to lurk at some point. Except maybe Zhamy...

As for Squirtle's up-tllt lock, I think we can all agree that we won't see it as much as a CG from Falco or Pikachu. However, it's not nearly impossible to pull off either. I would say its about 5/8 easy to pull of as Shiek's f-tilt lock. I know its a rough guesstimate, but I've had to play a PT before who tried that on me. The reason it didn't screw me over was because I was able to gimp and kill for a lead again.

clowsui said:

he can dthrow cg to 13-14 if you buffer it, + tipper is only about 22% more damage

tldr the guy doesn't know what he's talkin bout

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only in training mode, if you do it in game you can keep doing it due to the diminishing knockback

NeverKnowsBest said:

Da Fack....Marth is a jerk...we are never going to be done with him =3.

*resumes lurking the PT discussion*



OMFG you should go!!! I wanna fight a person that knows PT so I can participate in the discussion instead of lurk like a bish.

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I'm surprised you haven't gotten typh in here, he lives right next to a decent fox main and has a crazy pt.

also, champ plays both characters, he could probably help a bit

Lol don't worry NVB I'm sure we've all had to lurk at some point. Except maybe Zhamy...

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Nah, I lurk a bit when it comes to discussions I'm not particularly familiar with, but I still call people out on assumptions they make about Fox.

NeverKnowsBest said:

OMFG you should go!!! I wanna fight a person that knows PT so I can participate in the discussion instead of lurk like a bish.

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It looks like I'm going but I won't be there for doubles I think. And I don't main PT, but I don't really main anyone. I think Diddy is my best, but then probably PT. I'll be glad to play you though :D