Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Toronto Joe]

its never a good idea to go really offensive with fox

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Ok, here is all I can offer to this:

If you crouch he can't lazer camp you and will have to approach with a physical attack. At this point jigglypuff should spot dodge or sheild from the crouch and counter with a throw into a WoP. If fox falls behind your sheild after the attack like after using a late dash attack or an aireal, pivot grabs and U-tilts (into utilt>u-air>uair>rest) is a good choice.

Recovery is fairly easy to gimp because of his modarate recovery ability. N-airs just push him away... far away. The way he and wolf take hitstun and falls are very similar, so if you n-air fox, he bounces slightly into the air with an arc of hitstun, and falls faster than he can recover from it. In other words, he will usualy fall lower after a n-air than most characters.

Fox usualy uses his side B to recover from the side. When you predict he will do so, hold crouch until he does. If hye overlaps you, press B, and rest will connect with god timing. It's easier if fox's side B fails (rare) and he falls helplessly to the ground for a smash attack rest, or even a late sing.

This is for jigglypuff. Later I might post about what fox has on jiggs, but im too lazy for that right now ^^.

I can't call this at all, so don't skin me and cookme until im golden brown over a fire pit yet...
55:45 jigg's favor? I have little fox experience, but I tend to win 80% of my matches against them. (And the ones I have brawled are only decent players.)

 

[Lightning93]

Yeah I think you have summarized the Jiggs end according to your own knowledge fairly well, but really this match is in Fox's favor. As stated before his ground game is far superior (although we have to watch out for grabs), his approaches work fairly well, and his camping and killing abilities give him a slight to okay advantage. So 55:45 - 60:40 Fox, feel free to read up on anything you disagree with.

 

[Zhamy]

If you crouch he can't lazer camp you and will have to approach with a physical attack. At this point jigglypuff should spot dodge or sheild from the crouch and counter with a throw into a WoP. If fox falls behind your sheild after the attack like after using a late dash attack or an aireal, pivot grabs and U-tilts (into utilt>u-air>uair>rest) is a good choice.

Sorry, Fox players don't just run into other characters asking to get damaged. I'm imagining these scenarios, and I'm wondering where they're coming from. If Jiggly crouches, it's just as likely she'd have to approach Fox, perhaps more likely because Jiggly's doing nothing and could get called for stalling. Furthermore, Fox doesn't approach like that. Ever. "HEY JIGGLYPUFF THROW ME."

Recovery is fairly easy to gimp because of his modarate recovery ability. N-airs just push him away... far away. The way he and wolf take hitstun and falls are very similar, so if you n-air fox, he bounces slightly into the air with an arc of hitstun, and falls faster than he can recover from it. In other words, he will usualy fall lower after a n-air than most characters.

Bair juggling would probably be more efficient.

Fox usualy uses his side B to recover from the side. When you predict he will do so, hold crouch until he does. If hye overlaps you, press B, and rest will connect with god timing. It's easier if fox's side B fails (rare) and he falls helplessly to the ground for a smash attack rest, or even a late sing.

WTF? Jigglypuff's crouch is incredibly low, and if you're sitting there holding crouch, what's to stop Fox from recovering above her, or onto the ledge? And what does it mean when you say if Fox's Illusion "fails?" I've never had it "fail."

I can't call this at all, so don't skin me and cookme until im golden brown over a fire pit yet...

Too late; sorry. Really, I can't see any of the stuff you posted working in a real match, except maybe Nair, but why use that when Bair does all that work for you, but better?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Nair is the sex kick and has longer reach than it looks. i tend to edgeguard w/ it against characters w/ average or lower recoveries if im feeling lazy.

 

[Lightning93]

Yeah it can be a problem considering it has a decent sized hitbox that isn't that hard to land.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Light should know, the last time we played i attempted to edgeguard w/ that like what 80% of the time?

but i never thought of attmepting rest on sideB, but the timing seems too strict and if you whiff.....

 

[Sukai]

Link....
Hm....
*goes to Link Boards*


Well....here I go.
Straight to the point...
6:4 Fox's favor
Why?

Description:
Fox and Link are almost even, they both have reliable mobility and a decent projectile game, Fox's speed is thrown off by Link's range and knockback power. But the primary reason Link fails here is the reason he fails just about anywhere, bad recovery, plus the fact that he, like Ike, can be shine gimped from 0%.
Link's shield, when ducking can block the lasers, but proper short hopped lasers can zap him in the face, quite literally. So crouch camping isn't all that effective, but Link has the advantage of multiple projectiles, and although Fox can just reflect them, a fluid Link would make it hard to predict when to reflect. Both have a pretty deadly air game, and Link's down air can knock Fox out of an illusion, but Fox's down air combos, and does really well on a fellow fast faller such as Link. Link's neutral air can throw Fox off alot of his moves, and bomb spamming hurts his recoveries--well, it doesn't hurt them, but taking strong hits while trying to recover is never good. Link is also capable of gimping Fox as well, boomerang gimping can put his illusion to shame, and a down tilt can spike. However these are challenging to get right, and are highly situational, as Fox as shine stalling and the infamous foxcopter to help lure these things out. Fox's primary advantage is the speed, Link can space much better than Fox can,--
(I believe the Z-air needs no introduction)
--but if Fox can manage to get close, he can do some sick things to Link.
Link dies from a fresh up smash with no DI at exactly 100%, this is taking into consideration that Fox hasn't already shine gimped him yet. Plus even without a shine gimp, Link is an easy edge guard/hog.

That's about as in depth as I can get.
I'm sure someone else can elaborate further.

 

[Exceladon City]

This is like 65:35 Fox. Work them up to about 70% towards the end of a stage D-air> Dsmash > Shine off stage. Repeat process.

 

[KirinBlaze]

Yeah this is about 60:40 in Fox's favor. Fox is pretty fast and comes equipped with a reflector so projectile spam may prove difficult for at for Link. Fox's speed allows him to get in close and really hurt Link. Most Link players have excellent DI so I wouldn't be relying on that 100% kill with Usmash and while Dsmash and hurl us off the stage we can also DI it down and quickly mash the Z-button so we clawshot onto the edge. This takes very precise reflexs though, but we can do it. Link has a lot of range and KO power on his side which can pose a problem for the dainty Mr. Fox, you can gimp us extremely well but we can make up for it with early KO's At higher %'s jab cancels can be pretty lethal to Fox since Link's second jab pops his opponent into the air and with Fox's fast fall physics make it more likely that our Dsmash or UpB, both of which can KO, are going to hit. Offstage Link will usually never chase after you, but your recovery, Foward B, can be rather predictable and lead into what we like to call Dair edge guards. It's very easy to hit if yu can predict the use of Fox's fowardB and can result in KO's or even stage spikes. If Fox tries to recover from below with his UpB Link can just run off and Bair stage spike you mid recovery. Fox's UpB is also not very difficult to edge hog especially with Link's ability to regain invincibility frames on the ledge with his Zair. There isn't much we can do about Fox's Helicopter Kick recovery though, other then try and predict it and punish it.

Overall, Fox can combo us better and get through our projectile camping quite easily if he knows what he's doing. Offstage I'd give Fox a slight advantage due to his 3 recovery options, 1 of which is very gimp-able, but the other 2 may be a bit harder to see coming all the time. Fox also has a much easier time gimping Link. 60:40 Fox.

 

[KheldarVII]

I do see a lot of idiots use Fox's Illusion on the stage when the opponent was standing there waiting for it. I don't think that should be taken into account on matchup discussions if that's where you mean it's predictable.

 

[KirinBlaze]

I do see a lot of idiots use Fox's Illusion on the stage when the opponent was standing there waiting for it. I don't think that should be taken into account on matchup discussions if that's where you mean it's predictable.

No, when they go for the ledge to recovery. That's what I mean by it. Predictable in it's use, but the timing is a bit strict for Link to Dair so Fox illusions into it.

 

[Twilght Link]

Link....
Hm....
*goes to Link Boards*


Well....here I go.
Straight to the point...
6:4 Fox's favor
Why?

Description:
Fox and Link are almost even, they both have reliable mobility and a decent projectile game, Fox's speed is thrown off by Link's range and knockback power. But the primary reason Link fails here is the reason he fails just about anywhere, bad recovery, plus the fact that he, like Ike, can be shine gimped from 0%.
Link's shield, when ducking can block the lasers, but proper short hopped lasers can zap him in the face, quite literally. So crouch camping isn't all that effective, but Link has the advantage of multiple projectiles, and although Fox can just reflect them, a fluid Link would make it hard to predict when to reflect. Both have a pretty deadly air game, and Link's down air can knock Fox out of an illusion, but Fox's down air combos, and does really well on a fellow fast faller such as Link. Link's neutral air can throw Fox off alot of his moves, and bomb spamming hurts his recoveries--well, it doesn't hurt them, but taking strong hits while trying to recover is never good. Link is also capable of gimping Fox as well, boomerang gimping can put his illusion to shame, and a down tilt can spike. However these are challenging to get right, and are highly situational, as Fox as shine stalling and the infamous foxcopter to help lure these things out. Fox's primary advantage is the speed, Link can space much better than Fox can,--
(I believe the Z-air needs no introduction)
--but if Fox can manage to get close, he can do some sick things to Link.
Link dies from a fresh up smash with no DI at exactly 100%, this is taking into consideration that Fox hasn't already shine gimped him yet. Plus even without a shine gimp, Link is an easy edge guard/hog.
That's about as in depth as I can get.
I'm sure someone else can elaborate further.

except Link players are masters of DI =P
Fox is a rather feisty character and can actually get past our projectiles as he has both speed and a reflector. He beats us at close range and offstage but no sane Link would try to have an offstage battle with fox unless he wants to get gimped. Since fox usually kills with upsmash, we can predict and punish accordingly.
70:30 fox

 

[Zhamy]

Since fox usually kills with upsmash,

Not against Link. Shine, Nair/Bair lead to ridiculous edgehogs/gimps. I find myself using Dsmash much more than Usmash in this matchup.

 

[GwJ]

All you need is a sex kick to kill Link. It doesn't matter if it's on the last freaking frame of it, it'll kill at like 40-50 percent as long as he isn't like RIGHT at the ledge.

 

[gantrain05]

Not against Link. Shine, Nair/Bair lead to ridiculous edgehogs/gimps. I find myself using Dsmash much more than Usmash in this matchup.

you can't Dsmash kill link, he just DI's downwards and tether grabs the edge right as he passes it by, trust me i have the same problem when fighting link with olimar, you don't want to send link low cuz a really good link (which we are talking about, only the highest level of play) will almost always tether grab before he gets knocked way offstage.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i don't think its possible for him to quickly tether from getting Dsmashed to close to the edge can he?

 

[chaindude]

i don't think its possible for him to quickly tether from getting Dsmashed to close to the edge can he?

appreantly he can and go up to what seems the 300% ranges



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0u3sUOShcI

start the video at about 5.00 ends his explanation around 5.40

 

[Zhamy]

you can't Dsmash kill link, he just DI's downwards and tether grabs the edge right as he passes it by, trust me i have the same problem when fighting link with olimar, you don't want to send link low cuz a really good link (which we are talking about, only the highest level of play) will almost always tether grab before he gets knocked way offstage.

Yeah, the tether grab is annoying, but then Link is effectively offstage. He won't die straight away, but I find edgeguarding to be the easy part of this matchup.

 

[KirinBlaze]

i don't think its possible for him to quickly tether from getting Dsmashed to close to the edge can he?

As long as you DI is a downward diagonal direction and mash the Z button fast enough you can do this.

 

[chandy]

Seriously I've played quite a few fox players and I really don't think that this is more than 60:40 in fox's favour. I think it's 55:45. Sure fox can just shine link's projectiles and the shine gimps link really easily but as a link player you would usually aknowledge this and be very quick to recover not letting fox gimp you in time. THis isn't too hard to do if you use tether recovery as a link player. + Link can zair edgeguard fox's fire fox pretty effectively. At low damages link can build up a lot of damage on fox by up tilts and in close combat it is basically an even match up. Link slightly slower and stronger, fox quicker and weaker :/

 

[Sukai]

Link can zair edgeguard fox's fire fox pretty effectively.

Not true.
Fox has more recovery options, plus shine stalling.
Link can only Z-air edgehog 3 times before he falls. By then, Fox has the proper distance needed to get back on stage safely without even touching the ledge.

 

[Nexus Bond]

Not true.
Fox has more recovery options, plus shine stalling.
Link can only Z-air edgehog 3 times before he falls. By then, Fox has the proper distance needed to get back on stage safely without even touching the ledge.

Link doesn't need to be wasting his Z-airs when he's hanging on the ledge, since Fox's firefox has an enormous startup lag, and it's easy to edgehog this.

 

[Sukai]

Link doesn't need to be wasting his Z-airs when he's hanging on the ledge, since Fox's firefox has an enormous startup lag, and it's easy to edgehog this.

Foxcopter and shine stall says hi.

 

[Exceladon City]

Seriously I've played quite a few fox players and I really don't think that this is more than 60:40 in fox's favour. I think it's 55:45. Sure fox can just shine link's projectiles and the shine gimps link really easily but as a link player you would usually aknowledge this and be very quick to recover not letting fox gimp you in time. THis isn't too hard to do if you use tether recovery as a link player. + Link can zair edgeguard fox's fire fox pretty effectively. At low damages link can build up a lot of damage on fox by up tilts and in close combat it is basically an even match up. Link slightly slower and stronger, fox quicker and weaker :/

Apparently, they're doing it wrong. Any semi-capable Fox player will at least shine stall then Illusion before FireFox comes into play. All the others use Foxcopter to avoid stupid edgeguards.

 

[sasook]

If the Fox Illusion recovers, dair. If the fox upb recovers, zedge.

......

I wish it were that easy though.

Shine gimps, fast close range game, strong usmash (even with good DI, this kills at like 130-140), and offstage nair/dair/bair make this matchup 7/3 Fox, IMO.

 

[Zhamy]

Seriously I've played quite a few fox players and I really don't think that this is more than 60:40 in fox's favour. I think it's 55:45.

This should be interesting.

Sure fox can just shine link's projectiles and the shine gimps link really easily but as a link player you would usually aknowledge this and be very quick to recover not letting fox gimp you in time.

Right, but has anyone said this is the main reason Fox wins in this matchup? No. It's because Fox wins at long range and close range, meaning Link has a very limited window where he can control midrange. That, combined with his poor recovery is the main reason Fox does so well. Also, why would a Fox player bother shining Link when Dair, Nair, and Bair do the job much better?

THis isn't too hard to do if you use tether recovery as a link player. + Link can zair edgeguard fox's fire fox pretty effectively.

Whoever you're playing with is doing it wrong, or you don't have a good grasp of Fox's recovery options. You will rarely see Firefox. Especially against Link.

At low damages link can build up a lot of damage on fox by up tilts and in close combat it is basically an even match up. Link slightly slower and stronger, fox quicker and weaker :/

Link is slower, Fox is quicker and stronger. Against semi-heavies like Link, Fox has a ridiculous amount of guaranteed combos and DI/Tech chases up to at least 90%. Granted, some of them are 2hits, but that's still more than Link can do at close range. Even trading hits, Fox will most likely come out ahead, since each of his hits will lead into something else, that he can use to 1) reset his spacing 2) bait and punish. Link can't zone effectively enough to prevent Fox from staying at long range or coming in at close range, although they're not easy. But to say that Link is going to win at close range battles is almost ludicrous. There's almost nothing in Link's arsenal that's feasibly going to consistently outdamage Fox's options.

 

[Swordplay]

Why you would even go to the Link boards after we moved cought my curiosity. Really pissed me off why people won't notify us on our AIB boards, the boards we now use.

You all know Link is destroyed offstage.
O and Fox is still superior onstage by a small margin cause fox can approach from angles to avoid zair.
70:30 McCloud

 

[§witch]

One, how the hell are we supposed to know that you moved to the AiB link boards?

Two, why should we give a **** if you moved to the AiB link boards? No offense.

Link's only projectile that i would bother to shine is arrow. For the others, powershields then continuing to SHDL is a better idea. Every ***** link offstage, I don't think that should make much of a difference match-up-wise, but, link needs to keep fox at mid-range for this to work out for him.

65:35 fox.

 

[gantrain05]

also AiB sucks.

On topic, go for the vertical kill with link, his stupid Zair makes horizontal k.o's a pain in the ***.

 

[LightAlchemist]

Emm maybe i didnt get the joke, but whats FLAMEDASHING?

 

[GwJ]

FLAMEDASHING is a Fox AT that makes any matchup 90:10 or higher. It is performed by using the Firefox into an angled surface which leads into just about any attack.

 

[LightAlchemist]

9:10 in your favor? Isnt that a little bit overrated?
And by angled surface you mean like.. corneria´s floor? Cause that would be convenient, being Fox´s ship

 

[JigglyZelda003]

someone reeeealy doesn't get the awsomeness of FLAMEDASHING

 

[LightAlchemist]

Ohhh lol. I just looked FLAMEDASHING up.
Still i wont be able to wield its power EVER. I dont wanna get my wii crashed and my whole bedroom incinerated.
Not to say my house

 

[Lightning93]

How about we discuss stages now? I think Coneria would be a nice pick. Its different heights make approaching a bit easier for Fox, and at certain sections horizontal kills is a liable option. (Tip of the wing.) Also, of course our up-smash is easier to kill with, and like I said, hitting with arrows, spacing with bombs, and z-airing can be a problem if your opponent is on the ground below. And we all know Fox has the obvious advantage on higher ground with shine stalling to fast fall D-air etc. especially at slanted angles. And yes if its not already banned and your Wii runs on like, solar, wind, and electric power combined FLAMEDASH is always an option.

 

[Zhamy]

Large stage = win.

That is all.

 

[Sukai]

One, how the hell are we supposed to know that you moved to the AiB link boards?

This

Two, why should we give a **** if you moved to the AiB link boards? No offense.

Also this.

Large stage = win.

That is all.

I disagree, shorter stages would work better. Fox is maneuverable as it is, and it would hinder Link even more so, because he has little space of control.
Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Halberd, etc.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

maybe stages are a matter of preference? since i've fought a few Links on quite a few stages and other than Norfair or LM, all the other stages i feel indifferent towards.

but i am in aggrement for Corneria being the better one

 

[Zhamy]

Halberd,

This, in my opinion, is a large stage.