JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
i thought halberd had a low ceiling and was therefore considered small?
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Fox Match-Up General Discussion
- Thread starter M@v
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Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I normally hate this stage but, Lylat Cruise. Fox's recovery is versatile enough to avoid getting gimped by the tilting stage and Link's recovery is just bad enough to get screwed by it. D-air > Dsmash on this stage is nothing short of amazing against Link.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
i wouldn't go to lylat still since link can tether. and therfore only his spin attack can be screwed by the edge.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
If Lylat isn't a viable choice take him to Rainbow Cruise or Pirate Ship. Link hits the ocean floor in like 3 seconds.
Horizontally large.
M@v
Subarashii!
Well I think we are all done on link.
"Link is a character whos strong points are ultimately overshadowed by his poor recovery. Fox has a general priority advantage vs link, and it isn't hard for fox to camp or approach him. I would recommend poking nairs, as links upsmash beats dair. Any projectile spam is negated by shine. Link also suffers from slow speed and mediocre killing moves. Although Upsmash works, the best way to kill Link is with shine spiking. He is near helpless against it. Get link off the ledge, one shine, and a ledgehog. Dead Link. In the face of fox's speed and superior priority and edguarding, Fox has an easier time here."
POKEMON TRAINER NEXT
"Link is a character whos strong points are ultimately overshadowed by his poor recovery. Fox has a general priority advantage vs link, and it isn't hard for fox to camp or approach him. I would recommend poking nairs, as links upsmash beats dair. Any projectile spam is negated by shine. Link also suffers from slow speed and mediocre killing moves. Although Upsmash works, the best way to kill Link is with shine spiking. He is near helpless against it. Get link off the ledge, one shine, and a ledgehog. Dead Link. In the face of fox's speed and superior priority and edguarding, Fox has an easier time here."
POKEMON TRAINER NEXT
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Lol Squirtle is a different story, I got up-tilt locked by one to like 80%. Of course, I was so surprised I wasn't DIing much except a simple holding of the c-stick in the opposite direction, but hell that lock worked really well anyways. I was scared out of my mind, but I managed to win. If you can just avoid his hydroplane you rarely get killed, he's just not powerful enough. His only other approach is an airial, but it has such low knockback when shielded, it's very reliable to shield grab him. Otherwise approaching is a pain due to his size. My suggestion, let him come to you and punish. Edgegaurding shouldn't be too much of a problem, just aim well and do it quick. Recovering isn't too bad either, Squirtle feels really dainty in the air, so just recover quickly abusing that Foxcopter so you don't get hit, and don't run into a water gun either. Oh yeah, but his grabs do have considerable knockback although his grabbing range itself isn't too great either. If he's approaching from the ground Squirtle is most likely to grab, so punish his airial approaches. Otherwise, lasering can be hard, but just run around in the meantime, throwing out n-airs when possible. Drills can be risky cause it's so easy to miss, much like Fox's other airials. Dash-attacks are good as well if you connect. Yeah... just basically adding what I know to get discussion going. Feel free to correct or add on.
EDIT: ZOMG 700th post!
EDIT: ZOMG 700th post!
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Nair shuts down Squirts aerials like magic. Just poke at Squirtle alot. Going big will get Fox screwed by Utilt and Dthrow in which allows for switches from Squirtle to Ivysaur. Ivysaur's Fsmash is a tricky one because of the deceptive range and speed. It's kinda like Yoshi's fsmash. It's a killer, right along with usmash, Vine Whip and Uair. If starting out against Ivysaur, they'll force approach with Razor Leaf and if you get within stomping range you'll catch Bullet Seed and that's a good 20-40%. Bair has alot of range and will be used to stop aerial approaches. Jab has good range will stop ground approaches. In case it wasn't known, Vine Whip has a sweet spot which will rocket opponents off the screen and especially Fox at like 50 or 60%. Charizard, is basically Bowser with wings and a psuedo-projectile. Sh-fairs and Rock Smashes are used for approaching and the rocks from rock smash linger afterwards but you can reflect them. Though I'd honestly wouldn't waste time doing it because Charizard will jab you out of it. Charizard also has the grab release thing going on. As far as KO moves with Charizard, Usmash, Dthrow and Rock Smash will **** Fox at around 80 or so. When it comes to recovery, all three are pretty easy to gimp. Charizard's jumps aren't very big and Fly has about as much reach as Falco's Firebird. Ivysaur is a tether recovery so you basically grab the ledge and watch him fall and Squirtle's waterfall won't be very useful if you shine him offstage.
718_ROOKI3
Smash Lord
PT
Squirtle - He's the hardest one to fight, the idea to fight this character isnt hard though. Becarful to not get caught in the uptilt lock(it is possible to DI it, just find the right timing) Space SHDL, and grab him, ALOT. Because squirtle is such a little thing and cant stop moving around, grabbing him for an auto 9-10%with Dthrow means alot in the match-up. You also have to remember poke'mon get fatigued, so the longer squirtle is out trying to take your stock the more its going to eventually hurt him, so take that to your advantage. Your Fox, camp him, out run him, make him chase you, make him approach eventaully as soon as you notice fatigue rip him apart. Keep your recoveries SMART, watergun can really mess fox up. He dies at like 100% w/DI so UPSMASH is too good. Edge Guarding him aint serious either, just time the up-b and quickly grab the ledge, his stock is now gone.
Sum-up.
1. Camp him - focus on making him extremely tired, its a huge weakness for him against fox
2. Grab him alot - either Bthrow off the map or Dthrow for the most damage
3. Upsmash - Crucial move to use (He dies at 100%)
4. Ledge grab - Extremely useful against this character (harass his recovery, its not that good)
5. Smart recoveries - Water gun can make fox look real stupid so try to rising fair to the ledge,
its the safest option against squirtle
I'll be back to do Ivysaur...
Squirtle - He's the hardest one to fight, the idea to fight this character isnt hard though. Becarful to not get caught in the uptilt lock(it is possible to DI it, just find the right timing) Space SHDL, and grab him, ALOT. Because squirtle is such a little thing and cant stop moving around, grabbing him for an auto 9-10%with Dthrow means alot in the match-up. You also have to remember poke'mon get fatigued, so the longer squirtle is out trying to take your stock the more its going to eventually hurt him, so take that to your advantage. Your Fox, camp him, out run him, make him chase you, make him approach eventaully as soon as you notice fatigue rip him apart. Keep your recoveries SMART, watergun can really mess fox up. He dies at like 100% w/DI so UPSMASH is too good. Edge Guarding him aint serious either, just time the up-b and quickly grab the ledge, his stock is now gone.
Sum-up.
1. Camp him - focus on making him extremely tired, its a huge weakness for him against fox
2. Grab him alot - either Bthrow off the map or Dthrow for the most damage
3. Upsmash - Crucial move to use (He dies at 100%)
4. Ledge grab - Extremely useful against this character (harass his recovery, its not that good)
5. Smart recoveries - Water gun can make fox look real stupid so try to rising fair to the ledge,
its the safest option against squirtle
I'll be back to do Ivysaur...
gantrain05
Smash Master
well i took a trainer to corneria cuz i didn't really know how to CP cuz i never fought one before, but i just gotta say, any stage with a wall, squirtle has a stupid Dtilt lock, that i found out very quickly.
718_ROOKI3
Smash Lord
PT
Ivysaur - He is very very strong and is capable of killing fox early, so be aware of that. He's a tricky one due to his camping ability and his bullet seed. In a close range fight ivysaur will always spam bullet seed(it has invincibility frames and the move comes out on frame 1). Its basically the "save my own as$ move". Camp him too, well sort of. Try to have ivysaur to camp you instead and as soon as you see him spam razor leaf punish him with a Upsmash. Ivysaur can link moves together on fox and ivysaur has a strong moveset. Be on point and aware of what he is capable of doing move after move. He has no surprises, so dont expect anything too over board. Upsmash on this character isnt bad either, he dies around 108% to 115%. Again abuse the fact they get fatigued. Ivysaur fatigued is really really bad, take full advantage of it. Dsmash works good on ivysaur due to his recovery. As soon as he gets shot off the stage that should be his stock. His recovery sucks.You are tooooooo fast for him,
when he's off the map edge guarding him is too basic and simple.
Sum-up
1. Camp him if camped - If ivysaur is camping you just camp him back. His camping style is razor leaf 1000 times so punish that with Upsmash.
2. B button every time - Dont be subjected to this bullet seed nonsense. This move ***** fox in every sort of way, stay away from it. YOU CAN DI THIS. As soon as you get hit slam either left or right only on the joystick, NO SDI otherwise your going to get *****.
3. Upsmash - Great KO move
4. DSmash - Great KO move (only if ledge guarded correctly)
5. Recoveries - Ivysaur cant do much against you when your recovering, just recover.
I'll be back to do Charizard
Ivysaur - He is very very strong and is capable of killing fox early, so be aware of that. He's a tricky one due to his camping ability and his bullet seed. In a close range fight ivysaur will always spam bullet seed(it has invincibility frames and the move comes out on frame 1). Its basically the "save my own as$ move". Camp him too, well sort of. Try to have ivysaur to camp you instead and as soon as you see him spam razor leaf punish him with a Upsmash. Ivysaur can link moves together on fox and ivysaur has a strong moveset. Be on point and aware of what he is capable of doing move after move. He has no surprises, so dont expect anything too over board. Upsmash on this character isnt bad either, he dies around 108% to 115%. Again abuse the fact they get fatigued. Ivysaur fatigued is really really bad, take full advantage of it. Dsmash works good on ivysaur due to his recovery. As soon as he gets shot off the stage that should be his stock. His recovery sucks.You are tooooooo fast for him,
when he's off the map edge guarding him is too basic and simple.
Sum-up
1. Camp him if camped - If ivysaur is camping you just camp him back. His camping style is razor leaf 1000 times so punish that with Upsmash.
2. B button every time - Dont be subjected to this bullet seed nonsense. This move ***** fox in every sort of way, stay away from it. YOU CAN DI THIS. As soon as you get hit slam either left or right only on the joystick, NO SDI otherwise your going to get *****.
3. Upsmash - Great KO move
4. DSmash - Great KO move (only if ledge guarded correctly)
5. Recoveries - Ivysaur cant do much against you when your recovering, just recover.
I'll be back to do Charizard
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
squirtles grab range is also alot more than it looks, especially w/ shellshifting thrown in.
Ivy can also lock you w/ his jab on the wall, it was painful... *shudders*. BF i found to be a decent place to play the PT last time i fought one.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I wouldn't fight PT on BF. Ivysaurs attacks go through the platforms. Almost all of his attacks go through them, along with Charizard.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
yes you do have a point there, and it was something i had to worry about the whole time. maybe i was just a bit more comfortable on the stage and avoiding/utilization of the platforms than my opponent was.
i normally go to SV anyway.
i normally go to SV anyway.
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
He isn't Ash Ketchum!!!! He is Red.
gg.
Unfortunately I don't have ANY experience in this match up.
*sadface.*
gg.
Unfortunately I don't have ANY experience in this match up.
*sadface.*
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Rowan, a local player here in Louisville and well known Peach player, plays PKMN Trainer as a secondary and Hilt, also a local player and known Olimar main plays PKMN Trainer as well. So I'm kinda used to the match-up.
GuruKid
Smash Ace
Sup Fox boards.
Squirtle is definitely my favorite choice in this particular matchup, but don't count out the other 2 reptiles, either.
A decent Ivy would just try to outspace you with Ivy's aerials, her tilts, and MAYBE a razor leaf or two (just to mix things up). And uhh... yeah... watch out for bullet seed, ESPECIALLY the Spacies.
I've no clue about Corneria (that stage is usually banned in my region) as far as Atlantic North CP's go, Frigate Orpheon has been the only really bad stage for PT,at least in my experience (and I normally ban that stage anyway).
Squirtle is definitely my favorite choice in this particular matchup, but don't count out the other 2 reptiles, either.
PT is still beast even with fatigue :-) Besides, there's only one level of fatigue, so once we reach it, it's do or die for us. Squirtle's D-throw, fair, d-smash, and u-smash will still usually kill at around 110-120, which, with Squirtle's damage-racking capabilities, doesn't take too long.
How many hits does Fox's fair have? Because a properly-aimed watergun can produce ending lag on multi-hit moves, which would leave you plenty open for an attack (the more hits on the move, the longer you'll lag).
Razor leaf camping would be near useless in this matchup, actually. I wouldn't want to throw out my slow-moving, random-direction projectile while getting pummeled by fast laser shots. You've also got reflector, so... the tradeoff isn't worth it. You guys would win the camp battle.
A decent Ivy would just try to outspace you with Ivy's aerials, her tilts, and MAYBE a razor leaf or two (just to mix things up). And uhh... yeah... watch out for bullet seed, ESPECIALLY the Spacies.
Instant tether, drop, then bair as you recover. If you're not immediately gimped, chances are you'll recover at such an unfavorable angle/postion that upon trying your recovery move again, you'll get u-aired (which at high percents would spell doom for Fox).
You mean f-tilt lock.
I've no clue about Corneria (that stage is usually banned in my region) as far as Atlantic North CP's go, Frigate Orpheon has been the only really bad stage for PT,at least in my experience (and I normally ban that stage anyway).
M@v
Subarashii!
Fyi guru Fox's fair is 5 hits, usually does 23% if all hits connect.
t3h n00b
Smash Ace
Does Fox have a grab release combo on Squirtle? Everyone else seems to. All the pokemon have a throw that KOs around 120 (I think a bit more for Ivysaur)- for Squirtle and Charizard it's dthrow, and bthrow for Ivysaur. Ivysaur also has the strongest upsmash in the game.
RPK
Smash Lord
Rookie, your miscalculating the upsmash kills for the characters. Theyre actually quite lighter then you make them to be. I made a list a while back which seems to have disappeared from here...But whatever. Anyways, I did some tests on some CPUs in training (lol) but they always died at the exact same percent so I believe that the kill percentage is close to there, if not a few more percent. I dont include DI of course since it was a CPU, but I do include the fact that in training mode, as all moves are only at 100% power, when in a regular match they are actually at 105% power. So Im going to assume that these numbers are close to their kill range, if not about 5-10% off from the numbers given when connecting with an 105% powered upsmash with no DI, or momentum reduction...
Squirtle is really light, if not lighter than Game & Watch. However their abilities to survives are obviously different, as Squirtle as a lower survival rate then GaW due to bucket bracking, but anyways Squirtle's kill percent is exactly 78% if not around that number when he isnt fatigued. Like I said, he is extremely light.
Ivysaur is about middle weight. However, I dont take the fatigue into account, like with Squirtle. Anyways Ivysaur's kill percent is exactly 96%.
Charizard is obviously the heavy weight of the group. Again, fatigue isnt take into account like the previous pokemon. Anyways, Charizard's kill percent is exactly 100%.
Squirtle is really light, if not lighter than Game & Watch. However their abilities to survives are obviously different, as Squirtle as a lower survival rate then GaW due to bucket bracking, but anyways Squirtle's kill percent is exactly 78% if not around that number when he isnt fatigued. Like I said, he is extremely light.
Ivysaur is about middle weight. However, I dont take the fatigue into account, like with Squirtle. Anyways Ivysaur's kill percent is exactly 96%.
Charizard is obviously the heavy weight of the group. Again, fatigue isnt take into account like the previous pokemon. Anyways, Charizard's kill percent is exactly 100%.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
not that i know of so you don't have to worry about those shenanigans.
718_ROOKI3
Smash Lord
You obviously keep underestimating foxs speed, and all you did in response to what I wrote was what the PT should do but when we played you didn't apply any of that towards your game, everything I wrote I actually did, so until I see it, squirtle aint hitting me with lame *** fsmashes, ivysaur aint tether to bair gimping me(that's so dumb) yada yada yada etc etc... I don't really post in the fox boards like that so ima just say it now, the match-up is 55-45 Fox
718_ROOKI3
Smash Lord
I've this tried and applied many, many times. It just doesn't work that well. Fox can get above the stage very easily, shine stall, and recover as soon as an aerial comes out and whiffs. Not to mention that a proper Fair can be used to either avoid Ivy completely from the ledge or smack him in the face.
It works, but it's not that effective (especially compared to the stupid gimps some other characters can do).
I laughed.
GuruKid
Smash Ace
Granted, the bair edgeguard isn't some miracle tactic against Fox, but I find it to work moderately well more so for its ability to set up the u-air rather than just gimping.
Theory talk isn't my kinda thing; I'd rather show how it works in person rather than merely talking (typing) about it.
Also, not sure about other PT's out there, but I tend to keep Charyzardz in his Pokeball in this matchup; I find it too uncomfortable to use him against Fox. He does the worst of the 3 in this match (even though he may have a better method of approach than the other 2 pogeys, he's too big and gets combo'd to hell), but eh... that may just be me.
Theory talk isn't my kinda thing; I'd rather show how it works in person rather than merely talking (typing) about it.
Also, not sure about other PT's out there, but I tend to keep Charyzardz in his Pokeball in this matchup; I find it too uncomfortable to use him against Fox. He does the worst of the 3 in this match (even though he may have a better method of approach than the other 2 pogeys, he's too big and gets combo'd to hell), but eh... that may just be me.
We should get more matches in next time; I'll show you what I mean.
The man speaks the truth!
KheldarVII
Smash Ace
Ivysaur has the strongest U-smash?
t3h n00b
Smash Ace
At least in terms of knockback. It's very slow though.
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
Yea, DI changes kill %s a lot. I was playin a6m the other day (wifi lol), and i took a hit at like 90 and lived, so then it would take another few hits to refresh it so it would kill again.
squirtle is by far the hardest. he can utilt lock you, and isnt baited very well with laserz. bair is hard to land on such a small target. 35:65
ivy isnt hard, he dies to dsmash on the edge early. most of his moves are easily punishable if used wrong. just di his bullet seed. razor leaf is no threat. 60:40
they will probably switch out for char, he reminds me of a crappy bowser. char's only plus is, you get ***** if u get caught of the edge with the fire. dont get grabbed 65:35
frigate is the best cp becuz both ivy and squirtle are pretty dependent on ledges to recover.
55:45
squirtle is by far the hardest. he can utilt lock you, and isnt baited very well with laserz. bair is hard to land on such a small target. 35:65
ivy isnt hard, he dies to dsmash on the edge early. most of his moves are easily punishable if used wrong. just di his bullet seed. razor leaf is no threat. 60:40
they will probably switch out for char, he reminds me of a crappy bowser. char's only plus is, you get ***** if u get caught of the edge with the fire. dont get grabbed 65:35
frigate is the best cp becuz both ivy and squirtle are pretty dependent on ledges to recover.
55:45
t3h n00b
Smash Ace
Can you shine bullet seed back at Ivysaur? That would be great.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
I don't think it works that way, is bullet seed considered a projectile, or physical attack? If anything I would think Fox's shine would "absorb" it therefore canceling it out.
718_ROOKI3
Smash Lord
You can but its useless, bullet seed is frame 1,shine is frame 3, bullet seed cant be interrupted.. bullet seed *****...
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
bullet seed can also be very easy to DI, even on wifi lol.
and yesh squirtles annoying, but not that hard i give it at worst 55:45 Squirtle.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Well I've stomped alot of Squirtle's aerials with N-Air. The utilt is a problem along with the strond dthrow but Squirtle's chances for survival are pretty screw if an Usmash lands or a Dsmash at a high enough percent. Squirtle's recovery isn't that great, better than Ivysaur, but still bad if Squirtle is too far below the stage.
RPK
Smash Lord
Dude, trust me...Squirtle is SO much lighter than Meta Knight, and our players down here have insane DI and can easily get into a very detailed discussion. Trust me...Its around 78 percent. Usually if I hit a Meta Knight, and he dies in the corner, not off the top, and is using momentum reduction, he is usually around 86-90. So Im pretty **** sure that Squirtle will die at a MUCH lower percent.
@snowball,
It also depends though on the height of the stage, where you DI'd , and if he ever used it before hand to build you up to that killing percentage. Just by it not being at 105% power, and adding all those factors in will obviously change the killing percentage since Fox dies at around the same percent as Meta Knight. He isnt the 7th lightest character in the game for nothing =\
@snowball,
It also depends though on the height of the stage, where you DI'd , and if he ever used it before hand to build you up to that killing percentage. Just by it not being at 105% power, and adding all those factors in will obviously change the killing percentage since Fox dies at around the same percent as Meta Knight. He isnt the 7th lightest character in the game for nothing =\
Lightning93
Smash Champion
I've always wondered, is the knockback due to percentage taken into account before or after the attack?
And yeah, from what I've been reading Squirtle is definitely the hardest out of the three, but doesn't post too much of a threat to Fox.
45:55 Squirtle (I'm going to give it to him because of his up-tilt lock and mobility.)
60:40 Ivysaur (Easy gimps and combos, just don't get hit by his strong moves. Shouldn't be too hard to avoid.)
65:35 Charizard (He is way too slow in the air, making it much easier than you would think to gimp, and he is very combo-able. He has some decent moves, but you should be able to avoid most of them by camping and punishing.)
I'm still a little shaky on Charizard, we haven't discussed him too much for the final numbers in my opinion.
And yeah, from what I've been reading Squirtle is definitely the hardest out of the three, but doesn't post too much of a threat to Fox.
45:55 Squirtle (I'm going to give it to him because of his up-tilt lock and mobility.)
60:40 Ivysaur (Easy gimps and combos, just don't get hit by his strong moves. Shouldn't be too hard to avoid.)
65:35 Charizard (He is way too slow in the air, making it much easier than you would think to gimp, and he is very combo-able. He has some decent moves, but you should be able to avoid most of them by camping and punishing.)
I'm still a little shaky on Charizard, we haven't discussed him too much for the final numbers in my opinion.
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
i dont agree with half the chart and especially zss or luigi. i beat boss' luigi in friendlies b4 and i alredy posted in rookies thread that zss isnt that bad of a matchup.
hes not as hard as kirby.
the thing is, squirtle is only out for a short period of time. they could switch, but that probably going to be another 20+ percent if they do so.
edit: now that I think about it, its more of 60:40 squirtle, and not half the chart just them and zelda.
Nexus Bond
Smash Apprentice
Charizard is PT's best pokemon. Good recovery, fast tilts, very powerful, long ranged aerials, powerful throws, heavy, and ROCK SMASH!!! Seriously, you may think that move is slow, but it is VERY good.
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