The Pokedex. PT doesn't care enough to analyze 120 matchups. (Update 7/16)

Thanks to aggrogahu for the altered background version of the Pokedex! If you can make a clearer version without
any black background and sharper corners, post it and i'll add it in!



If the letter O, M, or G is in the matchup square, that means your brain will explode trying to figure it out. So don't.

VERY VERY OUTDATED CHART

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/Bettis36/PTChart7.png

The Pokedex Entries

1. Pokemon Trainer! The most complex ditto match EVER.
2. Metaknight
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. Marth
5. Falco
6. Snake
7. Olimar
8. Yoshi
9. Link
10. King Dedede
11. Ike
12. R.O.B.
13. Wolf
14. Ness
15. Lucas
16. Wario
17. Donkey Kong
18. Diddy Kong
19. Lucario
20. Pikachu
21. Birthday Suit Samus
22. Kirby

Solid matchup ratios other boards have discussed:

(Squirtle 55/45 Sonic)
(Ivysaur 45/55 Sonic)
(Charizard 55/45 Sonic)
(PT 55/45 Sonic)

(Squirtle 60/40 Toon Link)
(Ivysaur 45/55 TL)
(Charizard 45/55 TL)
(PT 55/45 TL)

Here is where we keep track of our kind-of-weekly discussions and request for new discussions on any character not yet covered. Feel free to criticize the matchups posted, it is quite possible that things will change over time or that we got it wrong to begin with.

8/12
-Created thread.

8/15
-Added Pokemon Trainer (overall) row and column, and estimated for his matchups. These of course are debatable, so feel free to suggest changes.
-Added Falco analysis.
-Edited Metaknight/Charizard to neutral due to general consensus.
-Edited Marth/Charizard to neutral.

8/30
-Added Olimar and Yoshi analyses.
-Edited Marth and GW vs Charizard back to slight disadvantage.
-Removed some of Pokemon Trainer's matchups, particularly against his own Pokemon. Considering "X"ing those boxes out.

9/11
-Added Link analysis.
-Edited Meta Knight analysis to be more reasonable.
-Added Zelda/Sheik column, removed Pokemon Trainer column.
-Reordered by SBR Tier List v1.0.
-Changed Major Advantage to light blue, changed Major Disadvantage to purple.
-Deleted everything after the Entries list on accident because I R ******.

10/13
-Added Dedede and Ike analyses.
-Edited PT/Charizard vs Snake.
-Edited Charizard vs Falco.
-Edited PT vs Olimar.
-Shifted the rows to put PT first.
-Changed the whole color system and key (again), I like it but if you have any comments, let me know.

10/24
-Added R.O.B. and Wolf analyses.
-Edited Trainer vs Yoshi matchup to 45:55.
-Edited Trainer vs Pokemon matchup to OMG.
-Slightly changed color scheme to make the colors differentiate more. Again, comments/concerns, let me know.

11/16
-Added Ness and Lucas analyses.
-Edited Trainer, Squirtle, and Charizard vs MK matchups to 35:65.

12/25
-Added Wario analysis.
-Edited Ike analysis.
-Did some other ****, idk.

1/5
-Added Sonic and Toon Link after solid conclusions on their boards.
-Edited (Squirtle 40/60 GW).
-Edited (Everyone 45/55 DDD) because no one has really looked at the matchup yet.
-Edited (Ivysaur 35/65 ROB).
-Edited (PT 50/50 ROB).

1/19
-Added DK and Diddy.
-Edited Falco.

2/6
-Added Lucario.

6/7
-My, what a hiatus.
-Pikachu, ZSS, Kirby added.
-Reordered for tier list 3.0.

7/3
-Added Ice Climbers.

7/18
-Edited Falco based on Reflex's insights.
-Edited Ness based on recent discussions.

Maybe we should try Dedede (for obvious reasons) and some high tier character for size (I recommend Lucario, but that's just me).

P.S. You may want to edit some of the dex entries (*hack* G&W *hack*)
P.S.S. We should also try to get the other groups in on this, I missed when the Marth mains were here, they know more about their character than we do.

I highly suggest changing metaknight v charizard to neutral.

^

Also, I can tell you right now that the DK match-ups are Major Disadvantage for Squirtle, Major Advantage for Ivysaur, Slight Advantage for Charizard.

DK Matches aren't Major Disadvantage for Squirtle, DK will get U-tilt like Crazy, It's not even funny, DK has trouble with Smaller Characters, Squirtle Being one of them, If you do get hit, that's your fault, DK is pretty PRedictable, and Very Combo able. i've gotten DK to 60% with one combo right off the bat, with Squirtle. Now it's hard for Squirtle to kill if you are saying that, but hence DK will be hurting Very Much, so this at least would be Neutral, It's more like Slight Advantage. Squirtle Does GREAT against Heavy Characters. Anticipate There Slow Moves With Squirtle, Retreat With a Pivot, and Comback with a Hydroplane... (steeler you are right this does sound Pretty lame)

Pokedex pic with transparency:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/MghtyAxWlder/PokedexT-1.png

it's a bit rough, hopefully it'll do for the time being

I think we should start at the top of the tier list, and work our way to the bottom. (The pre-tier list of course.)

Fearmy said:

DK Matches aren't Major Disadvantage for Squirtle, DK will get U-tilt like Crazy, It's not even funny, DK has trouble with Smaller Characters, Squirtle Being one of them, If you do get hit, that's your fault, DK is pretty PRedictable, and Very Combo able. i've gotten DK to 60% with one combo right off the bat, with Squirtle. Now it's hard for Squirtle to kill if you are saying that, but hence DK will be hurting Very Much, so this at least would be Neutral, It's more like Slight Advantage. Squirtle Does GREAT against Heavy Characters. Anticipate There Slow Moves With Squirtle, Retreat With a Pivot, and Comback with a Hydroplane... (steeler you are right this does sound Pretty lame)

Click to expand...

lol play the matchup against someone who doesn't suck at DK.

You will NOT get DK into the air, ever. He has 3 times as much range as you on a vast majority of his moves, so he has no problem tilting, Up-Bing, or Down-Bing to keep you away. Aerials? Shield grabbed. If not grabbed, Shield tilted or even a Dsmash. Squirtle has an almost impossible time getting inside, dies really early (at like 70-80% usually), and can't even get a decent launch on DK until around 70% himself. Too bad you can't even grab him. Remember Marth? DK is only slightly less difficult.

Before you go saying that we may need to edit something or something else, the tier list does not apply to individual match ups. Meta knight, for example, is top tier (either above or below Snake, I don't know which as of right now), yet he is the only character, so far, with any sort of disadvantage to PT, despite the fact that he is higher tier. PT (namely Charizard) may be able to beat Meta in a match, but he is still lower tier. Just to clear things up.

Elliot what if you just Suck With Squirtle 0.o lol JK

however, one Power Shield, or Attack and DK is Done for you know that right?

I think even steeler agreed that the metaknight matchup was neutral due to his insane dtilt.

Fearmy said:

Elliot what if you just Suck With Squirtle 0.o lol JK

however, one Power Shield, or Attack and DK is Done for you know that right?

Click to expand...

Uhm, no, he's not. You're grossly overestimating Squirtle's ability here. He's not a zero-death combo machine (or even a combo machine AT ALL), and he certainly cannot gimp DK, D3, and the like without taking a huge and unneeded risk.

Elliot Gale said:

Uhm, no, he's not. You're grossly overestimating Squirtle's ability here. He's not a zero-death combo machine (or even a combo machine AT ALL), and he certainly cannot gimp DK, D3, and the like without taking a huge and unneeded risk.

Click to expand...

he was a Zero Death Machine Against the DK's I play, holy Crap he does combo, and you shouldn't waste your time gimping, just foot stool him and he's gone. and if you don't agree, why dont' we test this right now? you and me

actually water gun lols at dk's recovery haha

i'm going to be honest, of all the characters, dk is the one i ENJOY battling the most, with all three. i really felt that all three pokemon were at least neutral.

but anyway, i highly agree with ivysaur, and charizard as well. although i would make a case for charizard to be x4 strong if he weren't so outranged. flamethrower is AMAZING against dk, it's almost like bullet seeding him. seriously. and dk has NO effective way of getting out. the closest thing would be to di towards you and dair or something...but even if you get daired, you'll take like...15-20% tops maybe? and he will have taken at least 30% if you really got a good flamethrower on him. flamethrower on dk is like flamethrower on falco, you rack up damage like crazy. especially if you use it to edgeguard. ;D i think flamethrower cancels out his spinning kong, but i'm not sure. also, your grab outranges his, so if you have the spacing necessary, feel free to shieldgrab his tilts and go to town. dk is one of the easiest characters in the game to "string" attacks against.

AS such, if you do get a squirtle grab or something in on dk, you can and usually will string a nice series of attacks on him. if he airdodges your fair or something, that's no problem because squirtle's attacks are so **** fast that you can just bair right after and keep going!

iduno, i mean dk's ftilt is "slow" enough that if you jump in and he tries to swat you with it, you can dodge it and jab him and follow him into the air.

but egale makes a valid point about shieldgrabbing, which i don't believe any of the dks i've faced have really abused against me. but for that reason, i think a defensive squirtle, playing slightly outside dk's (huge) range and waiting for an opportunity to strike could be effective. as you are outside that range, you can also mix in some shellshifting and hydrograbs to get things going and keep dk on his toes.

really, i think squirtle should try to bait and avoid an attack on dk's part to take advantage of the opening unless it's the uber quick dtilt, which, if he is spamming, lets you quickly go to the air and hit him in the face. i'm pretty sure dtilt's hitbox only extends to his hand and arm. and yeah, some dk's will dtilt maybe 3 times in a row because they know it totally shuts down any ground game squirtle has. but you have to be CLOSE to take advantage of this, which is why you should play a smart mid ranged game, poking at him and shellshifting around so you stay relatively safe.

i think squirtle is at a slight disadvantage at worst here, all things considered. maybe even like 45-55 neutral? if you do land an attack on him, there's always a strong possibility that you can follow up with at least 2 or 3 more. it's so insanely easy stringing attacks against him...


EDIT

also, yeah i think zard/should be neutral AT BEST and squirtle/meta down to slight disadvantage. check the last post in the old thread for why i think so

PERHAPS we should make the next discussion on DK?

Well i was Really Thinking about Up tilt in this, face it Squirtle's Up tilt is Amazing at Comboing, and i to love fighting DK's. The Swat is actually Easy to dodge. Then again about the Shield grabbing (again) i haven't really been abused by that. DK's got the range, but the moves are slow enough to dodge. Counter The D-tilt Spam with D-air. And The Claps Just B Shielding or Dodging, To be Honest, if you don't shield or Dodging, you aren't using Squirtle to his potential

and i'm fine with MK i guess, Zard gets hurt hard, but the MK i played usually says that Zard is the most annoying just because of his Range @_@

And We are doing Dedede Next. Everyone Agree?

metaknight outranges zard with dtilt, something your friend apparently doesn't know and take advantage of.

utilt is really hard to land on dk, you actively have to plan for it. shellshifting into utilt will probably just get shieldgrabbed, so mix in some SS (shellshift) grabs to keep him on his toes and reduce the likelihood of that happening.

if you are under dk, he'll likely try to just dair you, and depending on who landed the attack first, the other person will get hit. dk dair vs squirtle utilt should be something to check out. airdodging diagonally down into dk and utilting upon landing could work a couple of times. it could actually be a nice way of mixing up your basic aerial approach, especially if the dk is going to shieldgrab. it'd help if you airdodged and landed BEHIND him, so you still couldn't get grabbed if he kept the shield up.

I would suggest finding Will_ if you really want to test the PT-DK match-up. =\

In fact Reflex will probably do this irl soon enough and be able to report on it.

Aight... thanks anyway though

I'd really like to see Olimar next, if that's cool.

I think DK has an advantage against all 3 pokemon to be honest. I could give reasons, but I'm lazy.

Edit: Okay, as for Squirle, if he gets grabbed, he will be chaingrabbed by DK; which isn't good, lol.

i'm pretty sure you can safely jump/dodge out of it early enough

Does Meta Knight's d-tilt really outrange Charizard's f-tilt?

Elliot Gale said:

^

Also, I can tell you right now that the DK match-ups are Major Disadvantage for Squirtle, Major Advantage for Ivysaur, Slight Advantage for Charizard.

Click to expand...

I agree with both (Metaknight/Charizard Neutral at best, the DK section)

Adriel said:

Does Meta Knight's d-tilt really outrange Charizard's f-tilt?

Click to expand...

yeah adriel, considering it outranges everything marth has, and marth outranges zard as well

plus couldn't the sword theoretically go under zard's tail?

I'd also like to make SQUIRTLE VS METAKNIGHT slight disadvantage AT BEST. no way squirtle does as well as charizard. plus squirtle's ftilt was like, the main reason we decided neutral, but mk's dtilt outranges and comes out almost as quickly.

i'm going to make the next discussion OLIMAR if that's alright with yall. for some reason the pt and oli boards differ a lot on this one haha. dk seems more simple so we can save that for later...

OH I can seriously relate to Olimar..... -_- you guys have no idea. and MK really actually doesn't do well against Grabs just because of squirtle's D-throw, F tilt is Out Ranged, but Most MK"s Will be Using Dsmash and Tornado, they won't be abusing D-tilt, They use it for the Trip Mainly. I'm just pointing this out. Yes Squirtle can eat a smash, but if you trick the opponent to Di'ing out of a Grab, You Can get the kill on MK at 80% Oh and Squirtle Can Punish MK's Glide Mistakes, (Ex: They Press Up B, yet They are already free falling because they are about to touch the ledge, but is above the ledge,) WATER GUN THEIR FACE HARD.... But Really my two cents, but Squirtle does get owned by that stupid D-smash.

Edit: With the Sliding D-smash Finally Found, This is actually helpful, because Squirtle's D-smash Cut's Through the Tornado.

Elliot Gale said:

I would suggest finding Will_ if you really want to test the PT-DK match-up. =\

In fact Reflex will probably do this irl soon enough and be able to report on it.

Click to expand...

*nods*

Hopefully he'll be at the Waba Games tournament this weekend. If not, I'll probably see him on the 30th in Birmingham instead.

should we add another row for pokemon trainer? like how all three together stack up, if used optimally? and a column for zelda/shiek used together?

when mods will scticky this thread instead of the other?:S

i'll pm him then.

y/n on the pokemon trainer overall row? it's not as simple as an average of the three pokes yanno...for example if one poke is slight +, one is neutral, and one is major -, i'd say PT is neutral or slight advantage, due to the fact that you can get around using that disadvantaged poke.

Yes on poketrainer overall. Some of the other forums are already counting trainer in match-ups.

that's really interesting adriel! can i have a few links? or just the names of the boards so i can check myself?

Steeler36 from Nintendo NSider! said:

metaknight outranges zard with dtilt, something your friend apparently doesn't know and take advantage of.

utilt is really hard to land on dk,

Click to expand...

My 'Friend' Didn't try to abuse D-tilt, and i'm sure he didn't know that

You can Land a U-tilt by doing a FF Fair -> U-tilt, Cmon i even did this to ur zard!

Sorry, I can't find it right now. But I clearly remember seeing at least one character forum with match-up numbers for all 3 pokes and trainer. Anyway, I still think adding trainer to the chart would be a good idea.

I still think PT overall is neutral. All you need to do is select the same Pokemon as them/have an advantage on them. The advantage of the match will really be who gets into a favourable match-up first.

yeah definitely it's neutral. here's how i think pt dittos go (simplified)

both start with ivysaur

both try to mindgame into as many bullet seeds as possible

first one to kill tries to bullet seed charizard as much as possible (one bullet seed will equal like 50%)

charizard ditto, rock smash and flamethrower and grabs galore. unless the guy with the advantage (ie guy that ko'd ivy first) has a vastly inferior charizard, usually said person will ko zard first.

squirtle comes out, charizard tries to shieldgrab everything, try not to get hit by usmash/dsmash.

if squirtle can ko charizard to bring that pt to one stock, that squirtle will usually switch to ivysaur. if not, then zard will ko squirtle and win.

assuming squirtle does kill zard and switches to ivy, ivy will in general try to harass squirtle as much as possible so squirtle can't get inside to string attacks together. first to ko wins.

so basically

land as many bullet seeds as possible lulz

updated! check the second post for what changed.

any suggestions on changes? perhaps for pt's overall matchups or zard v marth/gw?

also, i'd like to suggest ivysaur vs charizard being neutral for both, instead if slight advantage zard. this is because charizard is REALLY REALLY REALLY afraid of bullet seed. seriously, one mistake, one dodge on ivysaur's part, and charizard eats 50% of seed damage.

LOL at PT being at a disadvantage vs Ivy!

It's true though. =(