Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Yes. Marth is pretty much immune to edgeguarding if the player is good.
Charizard isn't so lucky. His recovery, one way or another, is quite unprotected.
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The Pokedex. PT doesn't care enough to analyze 120 matchups. (Update 7/16)
- Thread starter Steeler
- Start date
Charizard isn't so lucky. His recovery, one way or another, is quite unprotected.
Charizard can get spiked out of a Recovery, and honest to god, F-tilt has an actual huge range, go to training and check it out, it's way farther then it seems, this is like squirtle's Bullet seed i swear :o if Marth is all up in ur face, just knock him out this move has no lag what so ever. and you do have time to water gun, I usually Water Gun when they use Dancing blades. or if they are approaching with D-tilt. Oh and you can Roll Dodge To the opposite side if they use D-tilt, IT only hits in front, not the whole body like some other attacks. Rock smash Particles = Nair's Priority
Adriel
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2008
- Messages
- 338
What if the Charizard player is also good? If you are knocked up high you can glide over or under the stage to get back safely. Charizard has two mid-air jumps so he can air-dodge without worrying about not making it back to the stage. Plus his Up-B has Super Armor Frames to prevent getting spiked.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Air dodging is something that's overrated. A good player will just wait for it and hit you anyway.
Charizard's air speed is sluggish. His glide attack has no range. The super armor on up-b means nothing because it's not in the proper frames of the move (you still get spiked). Fair really doesn't help in returning, nor does nair. Uair MIGHT help on occasion. Rock Smash flat doesn't work because it's too slow.
Marth can almost always Fair to protect himself.
Charizard's air speed is sluggish. His glide attack has no range. The super armor on up-b means nothing because it's not in the proper frames of the move (you still get spiked). Fair really doesn't help in returning, nor does nair. Uair MIGHT help on occasion. Rock Smash flat doesn't work because it's too slow.
Marth can almost always Fair to protect himself.
Adriel
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2008
- Messages
- 338
You did not list every move Charizard can do in the air to protect himself. Ever try using Flamethrower as cover when your opponent tries to edgeguard you? (IN THE AIR) It works.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Flamethrower is still vulnerable...
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
I have never get spiked as charizard while performing upB, and have even killed those who tried to meteor smash me :D
then plapy better ppl <_>
flamethrower has too much starting lag and Ending Lag to really cover Zard WELL. Rock Smash will punish ppl you feel stupid, Dair will spike them if they think it's fun to hit you with a Uair.
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
I was playing today, and my squirtle faired my oponents charizard out of fly , so yes, it has "not super armor" frames
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
I'm pretty sure it has Super armour only on the first 13% of the frames, which is actually a lot.
UP-B (Spiral Jump): from start to disabled (blinking in air), lasts 1.08sec.
Starts at Frame 4 (0.0666...sec into the attack)
Ends at Frame 13 (0.21666...sec into the attack).
Consists of 9 SA Frames, or 0.15sec worth of SA Frames, which consists of 13% of the UP-B.
Took it from the super armour thread in Tactical Discussion.
UP-B (Spiral Jump): from start to disabled (blinking in air), lasts 1.08sec.
Starts at Frame 4 (0.0666...sec into the attack)
Ends at Frame 13 (0.21666...sec into the attack).
Consists of 9 SA Frames, or 0.15sec worth of SA Frames, which consists of 13% of the UP-B.
Took it from the super armour thread in Tactical Discussion.
Knyaguy
Smash Lord
Edit: Yeah I thought that you ment it dosen't have super armor frames.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Well, can we talk about DK? I'm having issues with him, and I wouldn't mind personal advice or a complete entry right about now.
My problems with DK:
-Squirtle is... Squirtle. He has too much range and hits me way too hard for the most part. I try to rack up damage against him, but I'm thinking of leaving him alone completely.
- Ivysaur has the range to match DK's, but if I ever get knocked in the air, I fear his aerials in general. Most everyone has a good/unique bair, and DK is no exception. My own bair doesn't seem to be as effective on him. Once, I barely missed a bair against DK, and his fair sent me down... where I snagged the ledge, only to eat a dair for the kill. I'm glad he's buffed and all, but he basically overwhelms me in general. I don't even want to talk about his cargo spike.
- Charizard, on paper, seems like he'd be ok with DK. My own Charizard sucks, but I can see where he'd be reliable in general, unless DK has some grabbing prowess over Charizard that I don't know about.
Any help would be appreciated, but I wouldn't mind making this a Pokedex entry.
My problems with DK:
-Squirtle is... Squirtle. He has too much range and hits me way too hard for the most part. I try to rack up damage against him, but I'm thinking of leaving him alone completely.
- Ivysaur has the range to match DK's, but if I ever get knocked in the air, I fear his aerials in general. Most everyone has a good/unique bair, and DK is no exception. My own bair doesn't seem to be as effective on him. Once, I barely missed a bair against DK, and his fair sent me down... where I snagged the ledge, only to eat a dair for the kill. I'm glad he's buffed and all, but he basically overwhelms me in general. I don't even want to talk about his cargo spike.
- Charizard, on paper, seems like he'd be ok with DK. My own Charizard sucks, but I can see where he'd be reliable in general, unless DK has some grabbing prowess over Charizard that I don't know about.
Any help would be appreciated, but I wouldn't mind making this a Pokedex entry.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
Squirtle's screwed. Can't kill, out-ranged, killed quickly (80% lol?). WTF can you do? You either mindgame it up really (And I mean really) well, or Squirtle is a stock waste. I mean, the pros are limited to Utilt lock for a few hits and, like...
the fact that Squirtle is a Water Pokemon.
On the completely opposite note, Ivysaur seems to do really, really well on DK. Both characters are pretty similar: Establish spacing with Ftilt and Bair while having specials that need to be mind-gamed in order to land a clean hit (Giant Punch, Bullet Seed). The differences are that Ivysaur is much smaller when compared to DK, posseses a projectile and will thus ultimately force an approach, has disjoints, and, probably most importantly, beats DK to the punch. (lol pun) I think DK has a little more range, but ultimately your own Bair should be beating out his Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, Bair, etc. I don't really see too many negatives in this match other than the fact that it seems Ivysaur has a slightly harder time landing the final hit on DK than DK does on Ivysaur.
Charizard is pretty safe, too. Pretty close to neutral, in my opinion. I'm pretty sure that Charizard's grab range > DK's, though everything else DK has a range advantage on. Both can edgeguard well enough with their own Bair's, though Charizard does have Flamethrower and Rock Smash. You can spike him out of his recovery, though he can do the same. You're a little more protected since you actually have super armour in the air, but it's not a large advantage or difference.
I think eGale has played this much more than me, though.
the fact that Squirtle is a Water Pokemon.
On the completely opposite note, Ivysaur seems to do really, really well on DK. Both characters are pretty similar: Establish spacing with Ftilt and Bair while having specials that need to be mind-gamed in order to land a clean hit (Giant Punch, Bullet Seed). The differences are that Ivysaur is much smaller when compared to DK, posseses a projectile and will thus ultimately force an approach, has disjoints, and, probably most importantly, beats DK to the punch. (lol pun) I think DK has a little more range, but ultimately your own Bair should be beating out his Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, Bair, etc. I don't really see too many negatives in this match other than the fact that it seems Ivysaur has a slightly harder time landing the final hit on DK than DK does on Ivysaur.
Charizard is pretty safe, too. Pretty close to neutral, in my opinion. I'm pretty sure that Charizard's grab range > DK's, though everything else DK has a range advantage on. Both can edgeguard well enough with their own Bair's, though Charizard does have Flamethrower and Rock Smash. You can spike him out of his recovery, though he can do the same. You're a little more protected since you actually have super armour in the air, but it's not a large advantage or difference.
I think eGale has played this much more than me, though.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
You pretty much got it right. Squirtle is screwed, Ivysaur is a clear advantage, and Charizard is light advantage.
To elaborate on a few specifics...
Squirtle, while out, needs to be running around and watching himself. If you land that Grab, Dthrow and get out. If you land that Dair, get out.
Ivysaur's Nair is REALLY nice in this match-up because DK is so huge, and Bullet Seed is actually fairly easy to land as well (eg. after the Super Armor of the Jump-Canceled Spinning Kong). Racking is no trouble at all, as stated, and your killer is probably going to be Fsmash. If you get a Bthrow at a decent percentage, I'd say switch because you REALLY don't want to be fatigued in this fight.
Charizard's grab range undoubtedly outranges DK's. DK's is like nothing for his size lol. Flamethrower screws up any approach he has, so use it often. Rock Smash is easy to land for the same reasons as Bullet Seed. Zard is better off stage. However, DK is still fairly fast, and Zard is obviously weak at defending himself in the air when approached from the front or bottom.
To elaborate on a few specifics...
Squirtle, while out, needs to be running around and watching himself. If you land that Grab, Dthrow and get out. If you land that Dair, get out.
Ivysaur's Nair is REALLY nice in this match-up because DK is so huge, and Bullet Seed is actually fairly easy to land as well (eg. after the Super Armor of the Jump-Canceled Spinning Kong). Racking is no trouble at all, as stated, and your killer is probably going to be Fsmash. If you get a Bthrow at a decent percentage, I'd say switch because you REALLY don't want to be fatigued in this fight.
Charizard's grab range undoubtedly outranges DK's. DK's is like nothing for his size lol. Flamethrower screws up any approach he has, so use it often. Rock Smash is easy to land for the same reasons as Bullet Seed. Zard is better off stage. However, DK is still fairly fast, and Zard is obviously weak at defending himself in the air when approached from the front or bottom.
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
Yeah i agree with Egale, but i gotta add that if sqirtle lands a hit on DK he can combo pretty well, but thats all in squirtles favor 
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
But that's with like every character. "If Ivysaur manages to land Bullet Seed," etc. That's what Squirtle can do to win, not any significant advantage he has on DK.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
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- May 13, 2008
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- 2,207
Are we going to update soon? we are already practically done with Olimar, and Yoshi is starting to gather dust. We really need to get another Character, fast!
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Hm, good suggestions overall. I knew it wasn't just me when Squirtle felt stupidly impossible against DK. >_>
I should probably play others a bit more. My PT is still a newbie.
I should probably play others a bit more. My PT is still a newbie.
where's the BEACH
Smash Rookie
Oh man, how about Wario? My brother is really good. and plays super aggressive. My Ivysaur doesn't get the space he needs or gets shield-bitten, and Charizard gets juggled to the end. I hate having to play Charizard defensively, but I dunno what else to do...
Squirtle can hold his own in the air. Is that what I should be relying on?
Thanks guys.
Squirtle can hold his own in the air. Is that what I should be relying on?
Thanks guys.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
^ REFLEX, ANSWER.
I'm thinking Ivysaur has the best shot if only because he can't approach with the bike (Razor Leaf keeps going) and Ivysaur has disjointed spacing attacks. And Wario HAS to approach. But maybe not, I never play 'em.
I'm thinking Ivysaur has the best shot if only because he can't approach with the bike (Razor Leaf keeps going) and Ivysaur has disjointed spacing attacks. And Wario HAS to approach. But maybe not, I never play 'em.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
Following is all theory because I haven't fought like... any Wario.
Squirtle seems like he would be at a bit of a loss on the basis that Wario acts like he does, but simply has better air control and KO ability. I would think Squirtle could do fine on the ground with those faster tilts ftw, though he may be a target for Chomp? I unno, I guess 4-6 for now because of similar range issues on both sides.
Ivysaur would get harassed pretty hard by Wario's air control. Bair isn't doing much. Nair is beaten by Wario's Dair (I think). Utilt has enough lag to be hit by Fair if you whiff it. Ivysaur no doubt controls the ground, though. 4-6 maybe? Like I know anything.
Zard seems really safe against Wario based on what I know about him. Seems like you'd go about it like you would against Peach without turnips. 6-4?
Squirtle seems like he would be at a bit of a loss on the basis that Wario acts like he does, but simply has better air control and KO ability. I would think Squirtle could do fine on the ground with those faster tilts ftw, though he may be a target for Chomp? I unno, I guess 4-6 for now because of similar range issues on both sides.
Ivysaur would get harassed pretty hard by Wario's air control. Bair isn't doing much. Nair is beaten by Wario's Dair (I think). Utilt has enough lag to be hit by Fair if you whiff it. Ivysaur no doubt controls the ground, though. 4-6 maybe? Like I know anything.
Zard seems really safe against Wario based on what I know about him. Seems like you'd go about it like you would against Peach without turnips. 6-4?
yeah zard could probably grab EVERYTHING. of course, chomp would start to be an issue if mindgamed a bit. nothing rock smash/flamethrower wouldn't be able to handle though. plus fair/bair would gimp wario very nicely, i'm pretty sure sweetspotted both knock wario off the bike.
Why do you have Charizard even with Marth? Didn't we go over this a month and a half ago? AND PT GOING EVEN WITH META? HAHAHA
it's neutral because gaw has the same 'rating' yet charizard was neutral. so to be consistent, i changed marth's as well. it could easily go both for disadvantage as well, iirc the consensus was 40-60 and maaaaaaaaybe 45-55. it's just for consistency is all. regardless pt overall is still slightly disadvantaged either way.
charizard and metaknight are on fairly even footing. charizard is one of the few characters in the game that can consistently counter/outprioritize mk's specials and force him to play straight up. rock smash and ftilt will usually go through mach tornado, flamethrower and rock smash cancel drill rush, although zard will still get hit from DR when he uses rock smash. and zard can shieldgrab mk out of his glide attack. at that point charizard can focus on playing defensively against mk, and he has a variety of options there: great grab game, flamethrower, good spacing attacks, rock smash on occasion. it's imperative that charizard have a great defensive game, charizard in the air is baaaaaaaaaad for pt and gooooooooooood for mk. luckily charizard has a variety of defensive options and can QUICKLY rack up damage with ft/rock smash/grab games and kill at low percents all the same.
squirtle isn't truly neutral imo, but some others here think so. i've changed my opinion slightly since we went over mk months ago. but squirtle's grab game works well, it's similar to metaknight's, but squirtle's is a little trickier/unpredictable since he can shellshift it and all that. shifted grabs have VERY deceptive range, all the better for getting a quick dthrow in when mk is at high percents. it'll kill mk at around 110-115%. ftilt is very quick and links into jabs. hydroplaned usmash kills mk at around 80%, even more lethal on stages with low ceilings, stadium 1 for example. in fact all three pokemon can kill well vertically, while mk rarely ever kills vertically, so that's a good counterpick. regardless, hydroplanes are VERY quick and VERY unpredictable if the trainer isn't just spamming it early or something.
if squirtle can keep the match mainly on the ground, he can keep it close...but still in mk's favor, imo. reason is that squirtle is really pretty dominated in the air and mk enjoys gimping squirt. and the ground game is neutral, at best. mk's dtilt will screw with a lot of stuff squirtle tries to do. i brought this up earlier and was waiting on people to comment on it but no one ever did so...it hasn't changed. maybe it'll change now that your highness has brought it up.
ivysaur is okay as long as he can keep the fight mainly grounded, spaces well and doesn't get too near the edge, risking shuttle loop or an easy gimp. it's kind of like squirtle, except ivysaur plays a much better spacing game. razor leaf is alright, but nothing to depend on. ivy has solid grab range, although it's pretty laggy if it misses. pivot grabs are alright though. but shieldgrabbing mk can work occasionally. ivy's grab game is okay, but definitely not as good as zard's. ivysaur has more trouble with mach tornado than the other two, fsmash is the only move (i believe) that can solidly outprioritize tornado consistently.
playing a sort of 'midranged' game seems to fit ivy best here, carefully keeping mk away from itself yet keeping him at a sort of midrange by pressuring with spaced bairs, ftilts, dtilts, and the occasional razor leaf. mk is definitely not going to be able to waltz right up to good ivy and start hacking at him. don't forget bullet seed, a dodged dash grab will make mk eat like at least 20% damage. bullet seed is actually an excellent punisher. it's like a spot dodge -> dsmash, but it racks up damage instead of killing. most of mk's attacks are lagless enough that bullet seed won't completely ****, but it's definitely something for mk to be wary about. if mk makes a mistake, he WILL be punished.
mk FEARS uair and usmash, luckily for him they are not easy to hit with. but if ivy does succeed, expect mk's to die at like 50-70%. the reason ivy is disadvantaged is because he is very easily gimped and ivy can have a tough time setting up its defenses again if mk gets inside and penetrates.
overall i'd say it's like 45-55. charizard is pt's main workhorse in this matchup, you can expect some pts to use zard for both their 1st and 3rd stocks, and split the second with squirtle and ivysaur. there are other ways to do it, but the point is that it'd be neutral 2/3 of the time and slightly disadvantaged for that second stock.
charizard and metaknight are on fairly even footing. charizard is one of the few characters in the game that can consistently counter/outprioritize mk's specials and force him to play straight up. rock smash and ftilt will usually go through mach tornado, flamethrower and rock smash cancel drill rush, although zard will still get hit from DR when he uses rock smash. and zard can shieldgrab mk out of his glide attack. at that point charizard can focus on playing defensively against mk, and he has a variety of options there: great grab game, flamethrower, good spacing attacks, rock smash on occasion. it's imperative that charizard have a great defensive game, charizard in the air is baaaaaaaaaad for pt and gooooooooooood for mk. luckily charizard has a variety of defensive options and can QUICKLY rack up damage with ft/rock smash/grab games and kill at low percents all the same.
squirtle isn't truly neutral imo, but some others here think so. i've changed my opinion slightly since we went over mk months ago. but squirtle's grab game works well, it's similar to metaknight's, but squirtle's is a little trickier/unpredictable since he can shellshift it and all that. shifted grabs have VERY deceptive range, all the better for getting a quick dthrow in when mk is at high percents. it'll kill mk at around 110-115%. ftilt is very quick and links into jabs. hydroplaned usmash kills mk at around 80%, even more lethal on stages with low ceilings, stadium 1 for example. in fact all three pokemon can kill well vertically, while mk rarely ever kills vertically, so that's a good counterpick. regardless, hydroplanes are VERY quick and VERY unpredictable if the trainer isn't just spamming it early or something.
if squirtle can keep the match mainly on the ground, he can keep it close...but still in mk's favor, imo. reason is that squirtle is really pretty dominated in the air and mk enjoys gimping squirt. and the ground game is neutral, at best. mk's dtilt will screw with a lot of stuff squirtle tries to do. i brought this up earlier and was waiting on people to comment on it but no one ever did so...it hasn't changed. maybe it'll change now that your highness has brought it up.
ivysaur is okay as long as he can keep the fight mainly grounded, spaces well and doesn't get too near the edge, risking shuttle loop or an easy gimp. it's kind of like squirtle, except ivysaur plays a much better spacing game. razor leaf is alright, but nothing to depend on. ivy has solid grab range, although it's pretty laggy if it misses. pivot grabs are alright though. but shieldgrabbing mk can work occasionally. ivy's grab game is okay, but definitely not as good as zard's. ivysaur has more trouble with mach tornado than the other two, fsmash is the only move (i believe) that can solidly outprioritize tornado consistently.
playing a sort of 'midranged' game seems to fit ivy best here, carefully keeping mk away from itself yet keeping him at a sort of midrange by pressuring with spaced bairs, ftilts, dtilts, and the occasional razor leaf. mk is definitely not going to be able to waltz right up to good ivy and start hacking at him. don't forget bullet seed, a dodged dash grab will make mk eat like at least 20% damage. bullet seed is actually an excellent punisher. it's like a spot dodge -> dsmash, but it racks up damage instead of killing. most of mk's attacks are lagless enough that bullet seed won't completely ****, but it's definitely something for mk to be wary about. if mk makes a mistake, he WILL be punished.
mk FEARS uair and usmash, luckily for him they are not easy to hit with. but if ivy does succeed, expect mk's to die at like 50-70%. the reason ivy is disadvantaged is because he is very easily gimped and ivy can have a tough time setting up its defenses again if mk gets inside and penetrates.
overall i'd say it's like 45-55. charizard is pt's main workhorse in this matchup, you can expect some pts to use zard for both their 1st and 3rd stocks, and split the second with squirtle and ivysaur. there are other ways to do it, but the point is that it'd be neutral 2/3 of the time and slightly disadvantaged for that second stock.
Wait, wait, wait.. You changed another match up just because of another character? I have no idea what you just said..
Ok, let's say charizard can stop all of meta knights b attacks. Meta still outranges him. Charizard WONT be shield grabbing anything if the meta knows how to space his aerials and glide attack especially (that is just not shield grabbable). Meta outranges the rock smash, and flame thrower isn't going to be keeping meta out for too long, sides he can just tornado through it.
Squirtle DEFINITELY isn't neutral and is more than a 'slight' disadvantage. Did you seriously just say squirtles grab game is good against meta? Really? REAAAAALLLY? Squirtles grab range is crap sir. Shellshifting makes it tricky and unpredictable? lol.
Meta's range and b moves will destroy squirtle, he can't do anything to stop meta's zoning and high-priority moves.
I'm not even going to go into ivysaur. He and squirtle are completely screwed vs MK. The meta boards have this match as 80:20 meta. They're probably right. It really seems like the PT boards lack much experience with other characters and match ups imo. I'm trying to help, and that's what i'm suggesting.
btw charizard is the only one that stands any kind of chance, even then he is still at a good disadvantage
Ok, let's say charizard can stop all of meta knights b attacks. Meta still outranges him. Charizard WONT be shield grabbing anything if the meta knows how to space his aerials and glide attack especially (that is just not shield grabbable). Meta outranges the rock smash, and flame thrower isn't going to be keeping meta out for too long, sides he can just tornado through it.
Squirtle DEFINITELY isn't neutral and is more than a 'slight' disadvantage. Did you seriously just say squirtles grab game is good against meta? Really? REAAAAALLLY? Squirtles grab range is crap sir. Shellshifting makes it tricky and unpredictable? lol.
Meta's range and b moves will destroy squirtle, he can't do anything to stop meta's zoning and high-priority moves.
I'm not even going to go into ivysaur. He and squirtle are completely screwed vs MK. The meta boards have this match as 80:20 meta. They're probably right. It really seems like the PT boards lack much experience with other characters and match ups imo. I'm trying to help, and that's what i'm suggesting.
btw charizard is the only one that stands any kind of chance, even then he is still at a good disadvantage
the pt board and mk board should get together, we really have not discussed this much, at all. :\
this is true, charizard isn't going to be able to shieldgrab everything, i'll concede that. charizard can also approach mk though, short hopping rock smash and flamethrower have nice range.
shellshifting adds a fair amount of range to squirtle's grab. it's not amazing, but it's more than a simple dashgrab since he's moving faster than his normal dash anyway.
this is true, charizard isn't going to be able to shieldgrab everything, i'll concede that. charizard can also approach mk though, short hopping rock smash and flamethrower have nice range.
shellshifting adds a fair amount of range to squirtle's grab. it's not amazing, but it's more than a simple dashgrab since he's moving faster than his normal dash anyway.
You aren't going to be grabbing meta that much, if at all. especially with squirtle.
and yes, you should do that. perhaps the meta boards will enlighten you
and yes, you should do that. perhaps the meta boards will enlighten you
wow seriously had you played that many good PT's? We are meant to deal with Short range with squirtle ALL THE TIME. it's not hard to get moves down with squirtle with the puny range we are given, yeah Squirtle is out ranged, but Squirtle Can kill with a D-throw at about 90% if they DI, and you can sometimes trick them into DI'ing if you Grab Release -> AAA Combo ALOT. Dsmash Cuts Through Tornado. Squirtle is acutally about tilts, not going around Spamming Fair. Hydroplanes will kill a MK at 120%. It's like Squirtle's Falcon Punch, Forward Hydroplane is meant for killing, Reverse Hydroplane is meant for Mind games.
Ivysaur i think will have more range than MK with Bair, but the Gimping is what really takes ivysaur down. Ivysaur does have a slight chance, this isn't actually as hard as you think this is, The Specials Ivysaur needs to worry about. but most of MK's Move is able to be Punished by Shield ->
Zard out ranges MK with flame thrower. end of story
Ivysaur i think will have more range than MK with Bair, but the Gimping is what really takes ivysaur down. Ivysaur does have a slight chance, this isn't actually as hard as you think this is, The Specials Ivysaur needs to worry about. but most of MK's Move is able to be Punished by Shield ->
Zard out ranges MK with flame thrower. end of story
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
Actually, hidroplaning makes earlier kills, around 80%..... and charizard does have a lot of things on his favor against MK, hes good racking up damage and kills pretty early, and MK can just counter with a tornado when he scapes of the flames, which can be handled finishing the flamethrower early... about ivysaur, i have shake out MK many times whit dair and uair when he is trying to gimp
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
I actually just noticed this yesterday, so as long as we're going on about Metaknight...
Squirtle's Dair clanks and then hits Metaknight out of the glide attack. Not Shuttle Loop, just the glide attack.
Carry on.
Squirtle's Dair clanks and then hits Metaknight out of the glide attack. Not Shuttle Loop, just the glide attack.
Carry on.
interesting retro
anyway, 80/20 is ridiculous lol. like **** that's the level of marth/ness. pt/mk is nowhere near this.
how does everyone feel about (re) doing metaknight next? when we first did it, the mk board kind of just ignored us. and i'm sure ALL of us have fought plenty of metaknights, and few metaknights have played really good pts.
anyway, 80/20 is ridiculous lol. like **** that's the level of marth/ness. pt/mk is nowhere near this.
how does everyone feel about (re) doing metaknight next? when we first did it, the mk board kind of just ignored us. and i'm sure ALL of us have fought plenty of metaknights, and few metaknights have played really good pts.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
Sure, and this time, let's make them talk! And also, we'll make sure it's not a ridiculous number. In no way is 80:20 existent.
If you get any knowledgeable meta's to discuss the match up with you, please don't expect anything better than 70:30.
neutral is probably a bit of a stretch too. :\ you know, i remember when everyone (including me) got on a bandwagon saying squirtle was neutral after most people thought it was huge disadvantage...that's quite a bit of difference imo. had the mk's participated maybe it would have been slightly different. we'll see.
will update olimar and yoshi in a bit.
will update olimar and yoshi in a bit.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
As I recall, I was among the people that you mentioned against the Squirtle neutral thing. I may be a casual gamer, but I picked what I know from you guys.
Onxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,568
I've been playing MK a lot lately, and I have to say that Squirtle isn't bad against MK. Squirtle can really take advantage of MK's horrible aerial speed. Squirtle isn't out-ranged by that much in the air, or it seems like that because of MK's bad DI. Ivy out-ranges MK with his Bair, and jabbing; which isn't a suprise; but edgehogging is a problem for Ivy. I don't have much experience with Zard vs MK, sorry.
Squirtle has a crap grab range? Uhh, no. Just because that he can't sheild grab MK, doesn't mean it's crap.
Squirtle has a crap grab range? Uhh, no. Just because that he can't sheild grab MK, doesn't mean it's crap.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
I always seem to grab Metaknight out of Dtilt with Squirtle/Charizard when I shield-cancel my dash and power-shield the hit. Not sure if that's poor spacing or whatever.