Vorguen
Smash Champion
What is particularly bad about ZSS in Smashville?
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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread
- Thread starter TheZeroSuit
- Start date
Zodac
Smash Journeyman
i need a brother to practise on bawww
GwJ
Smash Hero
Nothing in particular, but DK has great range and is good with pressure. On top of that, ZSS is light, DK is strong.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I don't like flat stages for the most part, and ZSS does better with platforms.
What really annoys me a lot though is the moving platform. It often messes up my edgeguarding, and once in a whle I'll get hit because I landed on it >_>. It is a little helpful sometimes though, and she can ledge hop while doing the up B boost straight onto it. D-smashes while standing on it is a pretty nice gimmick too. Overall it is bad though.
Rawr_
Smash Apprentice
bair and fair go through the stage on smashville, you can cover yourself while coming back and prevent an edgeguard
those long-*** legs aren't just for looking sexy
those long-*** legs aren't just for looking sexy
ZSS's b-air beats mk's tornado if the hitbox connects with the upper 3rd of mk's tornado.
Mindgame with down b (at least, it's something I do). Most people expect me to attack out of the down b, but I either do nothing with it and simply use the down b again when I land, or I jump off of them (provided they don't space their attacks well enough to hit you before you can jump off of them) and then forward b.
If someone's already said any of this, my mistake.
Mindgame with down b (at least, it's something I do). Most people expect me to attack out of the down b, but I either do nothing with it and simply use the down b again when I land, or I jump off of them (provided they don't space their attacks well enough to hit you before you can jump off of them) and then forward b.
If someone's already said any of this, my mistake.
Buuman
Smash Ace
I know the d smash, if spaced right will hit MK out of the nado. What makes
this match up difficult is if the MK is applying a ton of pressure. I feel I have trouble with overly
aggressive MKs like m2k. Just won't give me any space to work my ****.
this match up difficult is if the MK is applying a ton of pressure. I feel I have trouble with overly
aggressive MKs like m2k. Just won't give me any space to work my ****.
Thecloudmon
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2008
- Messages
- 30
To be honest most MK love to rush me in with down tilt to trip to boost grab to down throw to down throw to up b then i down-b spike although this will kill ZSS if nothing is done but not much i can to MK Cause with First stock in my opinion to ZSS do to items we can only space his approach punish every expected up b out of shield with a safe up-tilt (). down smash his recovery all his recovers and f- b him when he is of the stage.
As for match up i say if you really know what your doing its (50-50) even if you do not then quite know but have the idea i say (30-70 MK) anyone else will get ***** cause i know seven zero to death combos on ZSS and if you know what starts them your down-b them when they have less chance in the trade of moves
Most of this has already been said but tested he limits your out of shield options so>>>......
As for match up i say if you really know what your doing its (50-50) even if you do not then quite know but have the idea i say (30-70 MK) anyone else will get ***** cause i know seven zero to death combos on ZSS and if you know what starts them your down-b them when they have less chance in the trade of moves
Most of this has already been said but tested he limits your out of shield options so>>>......
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
I personally think the matchup is either 5/5 or 55/45 in his favor. After fighting plank (we're even) at a tourney it just seems that way. i had to make sure to space my attacks properly else I get shieldgrabbed/shield dsmashed. HE IS EXTREMELY GOOD at punishing airdodges and how you hit the ground so be really careful when fighting a good one. mindgame them into thinking your gonna land on one side of them and land on the other. I think dtilt is your best friend (or it was mine) in this matchup. always try to shieldgrab his dsmash. remember to use the grab release (look in another thread if you dont know what im talking about.) on levels like FD. I would say the best cp for mk is Lylat because it gets you in the air more.
When fighting mk up close make sure to read his moves. just because they sidestep doesnt ALWAYS mean they're gonna dsmash (unless they play like that.
) What I did was bait the dsmash , nair, or grab with a couple cheap one or 2 hit jabs to his shield then either shield or spotdodge then counter. remember that you CAN grab mk out of his SH. I tend to just walk away sometimes and wait for him to do some move (pretty much any at all) and just jump on it with a quick dash or grab.
I forgot what I did when mk was in the air
...
MK (or pretty much anybody else, except maybe falco?) cant gimp zss because she has so many options when it comes to going back to the stage. If an mk is an over-aggressive one and they come after you just down b. dont do the kick unless you know it's gonna make contact because they can bait the kick and counter afterwards. if you can do the kick, do it. who knows, you might get a free spike. remember as soon as you tether to reel yourself back in (with up) as soon as it attaches to avoid getting hit while recovering and get back on the edge.
EDIT: After we're done with this, can we go Olimar? I can honestly say the matchup is 5/5 but i would still like to know recommendations on how to fight him correctly. I just fight on instinct here atm.
When fighting mk up close make sure to read his moves. just because they sidestep doesnt ALWAYS mean they're gonna dsmash (unless they play like that.
) What I did was bait the dsmash , nair, or grab with a couple cheap one or 2 hit jabs to his shield then either shield or spotdodge then counter. remember that you CAN grab mk out of his SH. I tend to just walk away sometimes and wait for him to do some move (pretty much any at all) and just jump on it with a quick dash or grab.I forgot what I did when mk was in the air
...MK (or pretty much anybody else, except maybe falco?) cant gimp zss because she has so many options when it comes to going back to the stage. If an mk is an over-aggressive one and they come after you just down b. dont do the kick unless you know it's gonna make contact because they can bait the kick and counter afterwards. if you can do the kick, do it. who knows, you might get a free spike
. remember as soon as you tether to reel yourself back in (with up) as soon as it attaches to avoid getting hit while recovering and get back on the edge.EDIT: After we're done with this, can we go Olimar? I can honestly say the matchup is 5/5 but i would still like to know recommendations on how to fight him correctly. I just fight on instinct here atm.
risemix
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2008
- Messages
- 88
If we are assuming the highest possible level of play, I place this match in the favor of ZSS, but not by much. I play a relatively strong MK, and I'm working on my ZSS game nowadays. After playing around with her a bit, I'm really surprised at her tier listing and poor showing at big tournaments.
Meta Knight's kill game involves a ton of Shuttle Loop gimping. A D Smash will also KO, but ZSS with good DI can take that clear into very high percentages. The MK will have to work harder for a kill than ZSS does, in my opinion, and ZSS has a spacing advantage, even if it is a minor one.
Meta Knight's kill game involves a ton of Shuttle Loop gimping. A D Smash will also KO, but ZSS with good DI can take that clear into very high percentages. The MK will have to work harder for a kill than ZSS does, in my opinion, and ZSS has a spacing advantage, even if it is a minor one.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
To be honest, the only even matchup anyone has against MK is himself. At the highest possible level of play, given that both players are of equal skill level, MK will basically always win.
Buuman
Smash Ace
I can vouch for DeliciousCake on this one. This matchup, is NOT in Zero suits favor.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I believe Snake has a slight advantage against Metaknight.
Anyway, I just recently got much better at fighting my brother's Meta. It seemed before that ZSS cannot handle an aggro Metaknight at a high level of play, but I am finding ways around that. Pivot grabs and single jab to down B are pretty crucial.
Anyway, I just recently got much better at fighting my brother's Meta. It seemed before that ZSS cannot handle an aggro Metaknight at a high level of play, but I am finding ways around that. Pivot grabs and single jab to down B are pretty crucial.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
So...can we go olimar now?
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
Naaa we need to go to Ike I hate his freaking jabs! so much freaking priority.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
Ike is too easy. Powershield and space and you wont have to worry about jabs. So about that Olimar...
Commander_Beef
Smash Champion
This does not make any sense.
Adapt
Smash Lord
Faded... are you gonna update this, or do I have to?
IMO oli vs ZSS is 50-50
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
It is. But I hate this matchup because it's TOOOOOOOOO even. which means I have to try my absolute hardest when fighting him since he has the same chance as winning as I do if im fighting a good one. like I dont have "trouble" against him but It's still so annoying having to strain myself fighting them. Trying to see if anyone has any techniques that may tip the scale in my favor a bit by using it.
thats what i hate. and your SHUair wont help much cause his Usmash wont only **** you but make you look stupid as well. lol.
i suggest to play the matchup more grounded than anything else. Dtilt is ESSENTIAL for this matchup, as well as the Dash attack.
Honestly, I think this match is in Olimar's favor. This list is things that I had a lot of trouble with when I played against a decent Olimar over WiFi back when Brawl first came out (back when the WiFi connection wasn't too bad). Please correct me with anything where I'm wrong (and giving examples would help me out a lot, since I hate this match).
Advantages:
Disadvantages:
EDIT: A few more thoughts:
Being above Olimar is a very bad situation to be in, meaning stages with even minor slopes are trouble. He can't get d-smashed while standing underneath platforms. His up-smash is ridiculous, it goes right through Link's d-air.
Advantages:
- Extremely good at camping (meaning you must approach).
- Small, meaning it's easier for him to get into your dead zone and punish.
- Has some high priority moves that have disjointed hitboxes and very little lag afterwards (d-smash and up-smash, for instance).
- Great at punishing almost any aerial approach and can typically knock you back away so that you must approach him again.
- Super armor on Pikmin Order can make it very difficult to knock him off stage/get star KOs.
- Decent KO power.
- Can rack up damage very fast.
- He has a pretty long grab reach.
- Pikmin do damage even if you shield them when thrown at you.
- Must physically hit Pikmin that are clinging to you in order to get them off.
Disadvantages:
- Poor recovery options.
- Lightweight.
- Relies on a RNG for his Pikmin (honestly, this is really minor, imho).
- Can only pull Pikmin up while grounded.
EDIT: A few more thoughts:
Being above Olimar is a very bad situation to be in, meaning stages with even minor slopes are trouble. He can't get d-smashed while standing underneath platforms. His up-smash is ridiculous, it goes right through Link's d-air.
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
Olimar is to easy Down Smash is the key to breaking all pik min almost at the same time ,I prefer playing olimar in battlefield because gives me more avoiding options, the only thing we have to worry about is his grabbing reach and how fast he can do it his Usmash hurts a lot. I would only kill him with side because is easier then landing a back air on him. His recovery is pretty awful he can easily be gimped 50% of the time with This match up is easily 60:40 ZSS favor.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
Late Post:
I see the MK match-up a lot like the Marth match-up, with a few changes. Harder to punish, easier to kill. Both Marth and MK have good edgeguarding, decent kill, and great punish. MK has more options when recovering, but they are still pretty punishable/predictable.
Sorry it's been so long since I posted guys. I'm taking 19 units right now so I have a ****ton of homework and such. Then on weekends I'm hitting up tournaments or doing IRL stuff.
Anyways, we need to come to a consensus on Meta Knight before we move on to Olimar, but I agree that he should be the next update. So everyone let's go. Cast your vote for MK match-up numbers!
55:45 MK
I see the MK match-up a lot like the Marth match-up, with a few changes. Harder to punish, easier to kill. Both Marth and MK have good edgeguarding, decent kill, and great punish. MK has more options when recovering, but they are still pretty punishable/predictable.
Final Verdict: 5:5 or 6:4 MK advantage
Matchup Advice:
- Game Plan:
Force MK into the air where he has much less mobility and exploit it.
- Suitpiece Strategy:
The suitpieces can help a great deal in camping MK, since his normal distance closer (tornado) gets shutdown by suitpieces. Glidetossing up can help a lot too if the MK is trying to approach from the air with a glide, his options are severely limited when doing so.
- Long Range:
Be wary of tornados and such. If he starts the tornado a long distance away, you might be able to start a d-smash in time. If not, you can also try running away and pivot grabbing. If you can't do that either, get ready to down-b to avoid the hitboxes and try to dash attack punish it after. Other than that, most MKs approach with dashes.
- Medium Range:
Normal area that ZSS thrives in. Stick to the common side-b harassment and such. ZSS is one of the only characters that can consistently outspace MK, so use it to your advantage. Be careful, MK has great ground speed, so he'll frequently be able to dash past the sweetspot of the side-b, keep a n-air or u-air ready for mix-up.
If he tries approaching with up-b/glide attacks and you have enough time, run under him and u-smash. Otherwise, try u-air out of shield after a high glide attack. If the glide attack is low to the ground, short hop and be ready to n-air/b-air, since most MKs like to d-smash or spotdodge right after landing.
- Close Range:
Just like with Marth, the area you really want to avoid. MK's d-smash, d-tilt, f-tilt, and a multitude of other options are just too ridiculous at close range. Keep in mind that d-smash is safe to shieldgrab (if hit with front). And remember that MK's f-smash is pretty much safe after release, so don't try to punish it with anything but side-b or d-smash (if you've got perfect spacing).
- In the air:
Pretty much the best place you can be. You may think, but Faded, MK dominates the air. And it's true, he pretty much does. But not against ZSS. She just rises/falls too fast, and her aerials are just too kickass. MK just doesn't have the mobility to keep up. The only real thing you gotta watch out for here is being above him. His shuttle loop and u-air are great for juggling. Basically, get under him as soon as possible, his d-air is powerful, but can be beat with u-air, u-smash, and up-b.
- When Meta Knight is Recovering:
This can be pretty tricky. Since he has so many options, there's a lot to think about when he's coming back. Just try to read your opponent's habits, and punish accordingly. So, how can MK recover? Well for the safest options, he can glide under the stage to the other side or he can go low and shuttle loop/dimensional cape to the edge. His other options are quite punishable. If he tries to autocancel shuttle loop onto the stage, prepare a d-smash in the right area, you'll have plenty of space. Tornado rises slow and can be d-smashed. Drill rush has a fairly large startup time, giving you plenty of frames to kick up a d-smash as well. If he tries to jump/glide overhead, he makes himself that much closer to the ceiling and a star KO (with u-air).
Once he has the edge, most MKs will ledgehop aerials or shuttle loop. Shuttle loop is pretty safe, even when blocked. Safest option after a shuttle loop is probably a retreating side-b, since the glide attack is coming shortly after. As for ledgehop aerials, try to catch him with a d-smash before he can start it up.
- When ZSS is Recovering:
Make sure to mix up your recovery between high and low. Since MK has poor aerial speed, you should be able to evade most edgeguarding. Of course, MK is a beast on the edgeguard, so be extremely careful. When recovering high, watch for the shuttle loop. Either airdodge or down-b flipkick (careful with the kick, he can bait you into it and punish heavily). When you recover low, make sure to mix-up between instant tether and delayed tether (as in when you reel in). One MK d-air without a second jump and you're toast. Also try to throw in those down-bs occasionally for mix-up as well.
- Matchup Unique Information:
You can air grab release re-grab MK, so get in as many pummels as possible and then f-throw for the edgeguard or dash-attack to u-tilt at medium percents.
Counterpick Advice:
- Stages to Counter-pick:
- Final Destination, great for proper spacing and edgeguarding.
- usuals, PS1, etc.
- Stages to Avoid:
- Normal stuff, Frigate Orpheon, etc.
- I personally avoid Battlefield and Brinstar, since you can get caught on platforms and such, which lets him under you too much for my taste.
Sorry it's been so long since I posted guys. I'm taking 19 units right now so I have a ****ton of homework and such. Then on weekends I'm hitting up tournaments or doing IRL stuff.
Anyways, we need to come to a consensus on Meta Knight before we move on to Olimar, but I agree that he should be the next update. So everyone let's go. Cast your vote for MK match-up numbers!
55:45 MK
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
I say 55:45 MK
kuenzel
Smash Ace
Its in favor of MK, but i don't think enough for 40:60. Yet 45:55 seems too little... 43:57?
Snakeee
Smash Master
I'd actually say it's probably 60/40 Meta now.
Garde where are you finding all those ZSS pics?
and TheRockSays, you shouldn't use d-smash against olimar much at all IMO
Garde where are you finding all those ZSS pics?
and TheRockSays, you shouldn't use d-smash against olimar much at all IMO
The one I'm using right now was lineart I colored and had to scale down. The others I have found on various image boards that I can't even remember anymore since it was almost a year ago. Probably the same places Cake got his, if he can remember. If you want me to send you a bunch, I can add you to my AIM buddy list and just zip all the ones I've got.
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
You think I can have a copy too? Please?
Me three, if you please.
Well, I am new to ZSS as of the 4th of February. I am not sure if this thread is continuing since it has been a couple of days since the last post, but I was wondering if anyone has any threads or advice for Diddy Kong. I play a Diddy main frequently who is probably better than average and I was wondering if we could discuss him since we havent yet.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I love fighting Diddy. Well, actually at first I hated the match up but you really have to know the match up well and use the bananas against him. ZSS can do a lot of nice things with them especially while glide tossing. She also catches them really easily with up air/n-air, and gets them off the ground with dash attack (risky sometimes), or just walk up to it and press A lol.
clowsui
Smash Legend
Snakeee why aren't you at CoT4? off topic