Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[sasook]

Snakeee why aren't you at CoT4? off topic

Why not ask him in his own "Ask Snakeee stuff" thread?

 

[Adapt]

he could be posting on his phone.... I think his comp is messed up anyways

 

[Snakeee]

I was at COT4 lol

 

[jibbyjaont]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I love fighting Diddy. Well, actually at first I hated the match up but you really have to know the match up well and use the bananas against him. ZSS can do a lot of nice things with them especially while glide tossing. She also catches them really easily with up air/n-air, and gets them off the ground with dash attack (risky sometimes), or just walk up to it and press A lol.

Is there an in-detail discussion on this matchup? If there is can someone direct me there? Please and thank you.

 

[TheZeroSuit]

OLIMAR

from Orion's:

Bairs shrug off Pikmin really well, and have little lag. Your Plasma Whip outranges all of Olimar's moves. Space well with Plasma Whip and stay out of grab range. Get him off the stage and then edgehog him.

Easiest thing I find against Olimar is to get under him in the air. He flounders big time in that position. But yeah, definitely stay out of grab range since he has quite a bit of range with those blue Pikmin and very little lag time. Also, if you have to, take a few hits from thrown Pikmin if you have to. Prioritize getting off white Pikmin and jabbing purple Pikmin. Shield works equally as well, but watch for grabs.

And from Snakeee:

Olimar is both hard to hit, and hard to combo. He is small, and outspaces you in many aspects. Your Forward B will barely outrange him, but using it can backfire against him and once he is past that tiny boundary you're basically in his grab range and down smash. He can also out-camp you his Pikmin latch. It's easy to get them off, but it pretty much forces you to approach, which you're going to have trouble doing. An advantage for ZSS is that her recovery is far better than his, and she can edgehog him nicely.
Edit: You can actually space a bit further than Olimar can by using Forward B properly, which makes a big difference.

(Olimar's Thread)

Fun fact about Olimar you might not know (but should be common knowledge): You can shield Pikmin Latch (and not just the purples). Anyways, let's get this goin'. Do you fear the Captain?

 

[KillerSOS]

Thought I would put out the first post

Olimar vs ZSS is a very fun match. Its all about the spacing. A note about the forward B outspacing though. If Olimar times a forward smash with a yellow correctly it will hit your extended hitbox I know that surprises ZSS mains quite a bit!

 

[cba]

Pros:
-Plasma whip puts the press on him..
-better aerial game
- better recovery
- can gimp olimar better that he can gimp her
- light weight(can also be a con)

Cons:
-light weight, means that his Usmash is deadly in the 90+
-olimar can camp her and distract you -while racking up damage- w/ pikmins
- her ground game isnt as good as oli's
- olis grab game is beast (envied by the entire cast)
- Olimar has decent followups
- Olis Spot dodge is like Uber god tier.

Final Verdict: 50-50

Matchup Advice: dont throw away your suit pieces, they are vital in this matchup. Watch out for his usmash. it is deadly.

Game Plan: Put the pressure on him, olimar doesnt do well if he is pressured in the air and in the ground he is forced to Fsmash. his Pivot Grab is beyond amazing and has alot of range. watch out for his Blue pikmin at high %ages because they can kill you with a f-throw.
Olimars Usually Jump and try to fool around but dont be fooled because Olimars usually do that to see the order of their pikmin to decide what attack to do next.
Yuor Suit pieces are vital, seeing as they can pressure him and destoy his pikmin at the same time, but be aware cause his pikimin will stop the Suit pieces in its track.
i suggest more dash attacks than usual in this matchup and mix them around w/ DTilt, ect.

 

[Garde]

I guess I can't really add anything to this conversation, because the only decent Olimars I've fought were via WiFi. I had a lot of trouble approaching with SH side+B and avoiding Pikmin Latch, but people have a lot trouble avoiding my Zelda's Din's Fire online so I guess my experience is moot here.

 

[Fino]

]
-light weight, means that his Usmash is deadly in the 90+

Actually olimar's purple pikmin usmash kills @ 72 (fresh with no DI) with perfect DI probably around 100+ fresh = certain death.

Umm... I don't know much about the match-up, but I'm up for playing some ZSS. I really don't have any exp against her.
Toon link is gay

~Fino

 

[cba]

and his Red Pikmin......T.T

 

[ph00tbag]

Don't pay attention to that bit up there about bairs. Uairs are much better, because it's not so bad if they're decayed. You want to keep bair fresh.

 

[DanGR]

Someone should test out a spaced nair->jab approach on Olimar and see if he can shieldgrab it. Olimar can't against some other characters with fast jabs such as sheik, peach, and luigi. (Olimar's 14 frame grab)

 

[asob4]

hai faded :]] -is skank-

in person we agreed around 50-50 right?

yeah i hate this, it's weird
use your armor right and it'll wreck us, but you gotta be perfect with them

fsmash outranges whip with any pikmin outside of purple >.>
i distinctly recall hitting every ZSS i played with fsmash before they were able to reach with whip

i just scared of jab and items D:
i say 50-50/55-45 either way
basically even

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I dont really have much input in this matchup as I've only fought one Olimar offline. He told me that it was hard for him to get pass my spacing so I guess side b's and lasers help a lot here.

Anyone know if Olimar is able to shield ZSS' third jab? And does ZSS' uair out prio his falling nair?

EDIT:

hai faded :]] -is skank-

in person we agreed around 50-50 right?

yeah i hate this, it's weird
use your armor right and it'll wreck us, but you gotta be perfect with them

fsmash outranges whip with any pikmin outside of purple >.>
i distinctly recall hitting every ZSS i played with fsmash before they were able to reach with whip

i just scared of jab and items D:
i say 50-50/55-45 either way
basically even

Now that I think of it, olimar doesnt have really good hand2hand besides grabbing. I remember reading a guide that said that olimar shouldnt really use his jab because it doesnt have a follow-up.

So basically this means that if I try to stay in H2H and can predict the grabs and dsmashes (olimar does have lag after spotdodging a grab from him right?) I can pressure him with my up-close moves?

Olimar I think doesnt have the fastest moves to counter your H2H (this means up-close combat btw) moves so I think you can get away with doing things like jab canceling to dtilt to get him in the air (where he's very vulnerable), unlike some MK's and other chars that do things like mash c-stick down while you do it and hit you before the dtilt.

And Snakeee told me in his thread that Oli is susceptible to a free utilt out of dash attack if you get through his camping. Which is something I would like to get more in-depth about since they will do it most of the time. I've tried using full-charged lasers, side b, or rushing in with a dash attack. All of these either work half the time or they dont and I get grabbed.

And I KNOW you shouldnt try staying in the air above him like SHing since his usmash hurts a lot. I need to find out how long it stays out to see if maybe I can bait him to use it and counter in time.

 

[asob4]

I dont really have much input in this matchup as I've only fought one Olimar offline. He told me that it was hard for him to get pass my spacing so I guess side b's and lasers help a lot here.

Anyone know if Olimar is able to shield ZSS' third jab? And does ZSS' uair out prio his falling nair?

spacing is hard for any one >.>
we can space you toooo xP

uhh no clue but maybe? assuming he's shielding all the way through he probably can, he has a great shield.

it most likely does, due to uair range > nair range

 

[cba]

Olimar CAN have problems shielding the 3rd jab. i forgot to add that jabs are Vital too.
ZSS's jab can act like a shield toward pikmin toss.

after the 2nd jab oli cant do much, so you start another Jab combo to Plasma whip to see if it connects.

 

[sasook]

his Pivot Grab is beyond amazing and has alot of range. watch out for his Blue pikmin at high %ages because they can kill you with a f-throw

I thought it was the b-throw that was super strong with the blue pikmin? I could be mistaken though, maybe I'm thinking of Ness' bthrow.

Anyways, not only is usmash deadly, so is uair. But we've already stated not to get above him.

I don't know much about ZSS, but just from my mind I would assume that jab canceled dtilts, jab combos, and dash attacks to utilts would be most effective. Maybe not the last one, since you can get punished for it.

 

[ph00tbag]

I thought it was the b-throw that was super strong with the blue pikmin? I could be mistaken though, maybe I'm thinking of Ness' bthrow.

You're right. I've heard noise that at some points it's more powerful than Ness' bthrow, but I'm not sure.

 

[DeliciousCake]

I thought blue Pikmin just made his grab range ridiculously far.

 

[DaiAndOh]

Blue Pikmin have the bthrow, Purples can kill with the uthrow.

 

[cba]

Wait, then i got it mistaken. but dont be fooled PPL, his grabs are really ghey.
Pro Olimars can Powershield your Plasma Whip and punish w/ a FSmash/Grab.
also, i suggest to pay Close attention to Olimars pikmin colors when trying to gimp cause he can throw a purple pikmin to stop you from edgeguarding/gimping.

btw, Dash Attack to Utilt doesnt seem fun cause he is small and theres a chance you could miss him.

 

[Snakeee]

ZSS definitely has the advantage against Olimar, and once again my old post from that thread is garbage lol.

Just throwing one forward B out that doesn't get powershielded will probably be enough pressure for you to run in and dash attack - up tilt him because his shield is pretty weak. Since he will be pulling Pikmin and throwing them at you a lot from a distance, the forward B is also more likely to actually hit. Olimar also can't deal with dash attack and rapid jabs, and that is a huge weakness for him in this match up.

Olimar gets things worse than others while he's above ZSS since he doesn't have anything that can out range or out prioritize her at all from that position. If ZSS waits for his airdodge she will continue the juggle with up airs or b-air him off the stage. The only thing that is useful here is the whistle cancel, but he can still get up aired again sometimes because of the up air's speed.

ZSS also edgeguards him really well. A neat trick is to stay on the ledge, let go as he's about to tether, and then down B back onto it to edgehog him. If he is going to make it onto the stage, ledgehop up air or b-air works great.

For Olimar's strengths.....welll Olimar has a much better grab game obviously, and he has nice control when he has ZSS on the run. He can also KO much earlier from the stage, and is a ridiculous damage racker.

Well, that's all I'm going to say for now I have to get some sleep.

 

[TheRockSays]

Dsmash breaks all pikmin.

 

[sasook]

For when he's above, can't he just use the superarmor from his whistle to land safely?

Also, what about playing an aggressive Olimar? The best Oli I ever played doesn't camp at all, he's highly aggressive. (L_Cancel is his name)

Finally, does Oli's dair spike hurt ZSS if she's trying to go for a uair?

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

Oli's aerials dont have much range so you shouldnt have to worry about his spike. ZSS' uair can surprisingly surpass most of the cast's aerials if spaced right by hitting with the tip of the foot. If Im juggling them I usually uair, FF (to avoid any counter attack or to prevent being above them) then uair again to punish airdodging.

 

[asob4]

ZSS definitely has the advantage against Olimar, and once again my old post from that thread is garbage lol.

Just throwing one forward B out that doesn't get powershielded will probably be enough pressure for you to run in and dash attack - up tilt him because his shield is pretty weak. Since he will be pulling Pikmin and throwing them at you a lot from a distance, the forward B is also more likely to actually hit. Olimar also can't deal with dash attack and rapid jabs, and that is a huge weakness for him in this match up.

not every olimar sits and spams >b >.>
there will ALWAYS be an fsmash in there which does wonders vs plasma whip
dash attack and jabs are trouble, but not too hard to avoid
btw, oli's jab is amazing as a GTFO move, which will be used as such

Olimar gets things worse than others while he's above ZSS since he doesn't have anything that can out range or out prioritize her at all from that position. If ZSS waits for his airdodge she will continue the juggle with up airs or b-air him off the stage. The only thing that is useful here is the whistle cancel, but he can still get up aired again sometimes because of the up air's speed.

i personally have never been juggled very long, as oli can spam whistle if it's really bad. after whistle olimar can do anything, with little lag after the whistle, so it is doubtful you'll hit the oli again after a whistle
unless they is stupid

ZSS also edgeguards him really well. A neat trick is to stay on the ledge, let go as he's about to tether, and then down B back onto it to edgehog him. If he is going to make it onto the stage, ledgehop up air or b-air works great.

For Olimar's strengths.....welll Olimar has a much better grab game obviously, and he has nice control when he has ZSS on the run. He can also KO much earlier from the stage, and is a ridiculous damage racker.

Well, that's all I'm going to say for now I have to get some sleep.

everyone edgeguard oli well >.>
oli also outranges your best spacer and finisher, and oli's uair is teh amazing <3333
all of oli's aerials have surprising range and will hit you. he has decent air control so he can fair OoS and fade away to safety
also, SH toss is lagless, anything can be done after it in the same SH

it's even >.> <.<

 

[Snakeee]

not every olimar sits and spams >b >.>
there will ALWAYS be an fsmash in there which does wonders vs plasma whip
dash attack and jabs are trouble, but not too hard to avoid
btw, oli's jab is amazing as a GTFO move, which will be used as such



i personally have never been juggled very long, as oli can spam whistle if it's really bad. after whistle olimar can do anything, with little lag after the whistle, so it is doubtful you'll hit the oli again after a whistle
unless they is stupid



everyone edgeguard oli well >.>
oli also outranges your best spacer and finisher, and oli's uair is teh amazing <3333
all of oli's aerials have surprising range and will hit you. he has decent air control so he can fair OoS and fade away to safety
also, SH toss is lagless, anything can be done after it in the same SH

it's even >.> <.<

Sorry, but you're wrong here. Olimar's f-smash does NOT outrange ZSS's side B.
And, that "little lag after the whistle" is where I do another one of my 4 frame up airs. It doesn't work every single time, but in any case it will at least do some damage. And he doesn't have enough air control against ZSS at all. But what sometimes works well is a random Up B from him.

And, don't think I don't have experience against good Olimars because I do especially against BlackWaltz.

 

[asob4]

i know you have experience >.>

from the times i've played against faded image i was able to stop his whip dead in it's tracks with an fsmash

blackwaltz is a n00b xP

 

[cba]

LIES!! Fsmash doesnt out range her plasma whip or out prioritize for that matter.
its either 55-45 or 50-50 imo.

 

[asob4]

it may just be faster, maybe that's why >.<

 

[fkacyan]

I'd say the matchup is 6-4 ZSS, though it might be 55-45 ZSS. Olimar can rack of damage extremely quickly, and the second you're on the defensive he has a disgusting amount of ways to kill you. Purple pikmin shut down almost every approach (He can't depend on having and keeping them, however). As we're light, the 30-40 percent we can eat at 0% is a decent amount of our stock, and he can whittle away at the rest fair easily. One spacing mistake can be deadly here.

That said, his air game is very week. Minus certain pikmin for dair and uair (I'm thinking yellows) they don't tend to have much range (With said yellows having crazy range). Once he's off the edge he has to worry about not getting gimped, so odds are he'll try to recover above the stage, making him easy to juggle.

The key to this matchup is watching his Pikmin. If you can work it so that he is usually not landing grabs / smashes with the best pikmin for those jobs, you'll have an easier time.

EDIT: Additionally...

Don't get predictable with kill timing. His down-B has superarmor frames, and they can use that to detiorate your kill moves and retaliate rather well at the same time, as it's fewer frames than an airdodge.

 

[asob4]

i believe yellows have more stun on ZSS, much like falco's lazers, no?

oh and yellows/reds have great range on aerials. his fair becomes like marth's when it's either of those two (little exaggerated, but yellows outrange MK's fair)

i is just scared of armor :[[

 

[jibbyjaont]

Do you suggest spacing through the whole game against Oli? Or would you recommend to occasionally get in close once you close the gap?

 

[cba]

Counter pick: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair.(idk anything else)
Stages to avoid: Luigis mansion.

and they both do Horribly in Japes...can we CP that?

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

and they both do Horribly in Japes...can we CP that?

Jungle japes means no side b; no side b means no spacing; I think we're gonna need spacing, to approach and avoid fsmash and all that.

I bet an Olimar would change characters if we cp Rainbow. Which really makes no sense to me why people are allowed to do that since it eliminates the point of CPing stages if they could just turn into a character that's GOOD on that stage as soon as you choose it.

 

[DeliciousCake]

You can still use Plasma Whip, it's just a matter of using it properly. And CP'ing is meant to throw off your opponent's flow.

 

[sasook]

His down-B has superarmor frames, and they can use that to detiorate your kill moves and retaliate rather well at the same time, as it's fewer frames than an airdodge.

I mentioned this earlier.

For when he's above, can't he just use the superarmor from his whistle to land safely?

I assumed everyone implied from this that Oli usually uses SA frames while recovering to help himself get back.

Also, what about playing an aggressive Olimar?

Still waiting on this.

I bet an Olimar would change characters if we cp Rainbow. Which really makes no sense to me why people are allowed to do that since it eliminates the point of CPing stages if they could just turn into a character that's GOOD on that stage as soon as you choose it.

QFT


Also, I just wanna point out that Oli can have some pretty good DI. I've seen things where, with a combination of DI, momentum canceling, and whistle SA frames, the Oli lived to 227% against a R.O.B. Neither of them were scrubs, before any of you ask. They're not tourney players, but they're not scrubs either.

 

[cba]

Jungle japes means no side b; no side b means no spacing; I think we're gonna need spacing, to approach and avoid fsmash and all that.

i think ZSS will do better in japes than olimar. you just have to know how to use it and WHEN.

[QOUTE]I bet an Olimar would change characters if we cp Rainbow. Which really makes no sense to me why people are allowed to do that since it eliminates the point of CPing stages if they could just turn into a character that's GOOD on that stage as soon as you choose it.[/QUOTE]
exactly. that sux. hard body.

You can still use Plasma Whip, it's just a matter of using it properly.

i cannot agree w/ you more. ZSS isnt all about plasma whip.

I assumed everyone implied from this that Oli usually uses SA frames while recovering to help himself get back.

he actually does it at times when getting juggled

 

[fkacyan]

Aggressive oli is pretty lolworthy, because he has no approach, really. Every single one will have him eating usmash or dsmash.

 

[sasook]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtsG_9XGN4U

Old vid of his, but that's what I mean by an aggressive Oli. Aggressive in the sense that he doesn't set up camp.