Well, ZSS is pretty **** good at running away, and this is why I say you underestimate her. Her biggest troubles are not camping against most of the cast. In fact, this is why she wins in most of her match-ups. ZSS, in fact, has the hardest time against characters that make it almost impossible for her to approach while forcing her to approach at the same time. Hell, if the Falco match-up were entirely about being to run away, ZSS would obliterate Falco. But Falco controls all of our approach lines better than any other character. Wario doesn't do that in any way. Wario simply does not limit ZSS's options any more than she limits his, and if you can't see that, then you're simply underestimating ZSS.
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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread
- Thread starter TheZeroSuit
- Start date
And that is disgusting... A lot.
Hey, now. Wario's pretty sexy.
He has bigger boobs than ZSS.
And his *** makes hers look like a bean pole.
Btw.. The match up is very interesting...
I'll thake my dictionary and post my thoughts later...
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
If you immediately d-air, we'll probably hit you out of it with the u-air we're chasing you with. And yeah, you'll hit us before we can d-smash if you're already in range, but don't try to shorthop through it (No ZSS should be using it when you're that close).
You gotta read my whole post. I was defining recovery as actual recovery moves, the side-b and the up-b. They're generally not that great. I agree that Wario's aerial control makes up for this, making it extremely difficult to stop him from coming back. But between either character if they're forced to recover low, it'll be a problem situation.
Yeah, probably true.
u-smash is great for platform harassment. it's great for anti-air harassment in general, but platforms make it that much better.
we do.
How does Wario get out of being backed into a corner better than ZSS? We're talking mobility here, no attacks involved. And how are we not mobile overall? We have great ground speed, decent horizontal airspeed, and amazing vertical airspeed.
Are you saying you only lose to MK?
Wario can airdodge through her safely compared to her trying to airdodge past Wario. She's also vulnerable from below where Wario can force her to airdodge or eat a clap and then punish the airdodge with a waft or clap or whatever. ZSS can sometimes force Wario to airdodge but actually punishing it is her problem. She can't go one direction and then switch as fast as he can without losing speed.
And no I'm not saying I only lose to MK, I am saying Wario's camping is potent to the point where if another character could do it better than him, then that character shouldn't have any real bad matchups aside from possibly MK or maybe one other character like Marth (Wario's problem with him is mostly range though). If someone is implying that ZSS can run away better than Wario can, then I would assume that she would also most likely have similar or better matchups than him, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I'm not being biased, I'm judging based on my experience vs Wario. Please don't say that there aren't any good Warios here because there are.
And about the stages, it's funny because I hate larger stages for the most part.
Up airs really work in a ton of situations.
Also, ZSS has great options out of shield when you manage to pressure her. F-tilt or jab OOS works wonders.
Oh and smart that you picked that up about the bike thing because that can work pretty well sometimes
Wario can shieldgrab all of ZSS' out of shield options :\ I don't see why they'd want to be close to us.
I know you guys don't consider Wotts amazing or anything, but he had a hell of a lot of trouble once I got inside his comfort zone.
Saying that one move is going to give you decisive advantage over a character is silly, Snakeee. GW's nair beats all our approach options, and our matchup is still even, and he can kill us most likely sooner than ZSS and has a usable grab at close quarters and isn't gimpable.
I know you guys don't consider Wotts amazing or anything, but he had a hell of a lot of trouble once I got inside his comfort zone.
Saying that one move is going to give you decisive advantage over a character is silly, Snakeee. GW's nair beats all our approach options, and our matchup is still even, and he can kill us most likely sooner than ZSS and has a usable grab at close quarters and isn't gimpable.
I never said she could run away better than Wario. I said she could run away from Wario equally as well as he could run away from her. Therein lies a distinction that you seem inclined to overlook. You want to refute the assertion that ZSS could run away from anyone Wario can run away from. But that assertion is not being made. This thread is not a comparison of how good each character is. If that were the case, then Wario would easily win out. This thread is about who would have to work the hardest to win this match-up.
I'm saying it would be an equally grueling match for both parties if both decided to play campy as hell.
Lord Karn consistently beat me back when he played ROB. That doesn't mean the match-up is in ROB's favor. (Hint: ZSS beat ROB at least 60/40 before the infinite)
shlike
Smash Ace
I played shlike at WHOBO too, and I hope he agrees with me D:
shlike
Smash Ace
In all honesty I really dont have much experience against good warios, being as phantom is the first and only good wario main that i've played, I did decent, I think I might have beaten him once like out of 5 times or so, but what I got from those few matches was the following:
DO NOT BE CLOSE TO WARIO
DO NOT GET FARTED ON
KILL WARIO
but seriously
I think the matchup is pretty even, both have nice air games, both space well, It just comes down not being predictable with d-smashes and even retreating side b-s, as they can be punishes if predicted.
50:50 imo
(even though i barely have any experience lawlz)
but seriously phantom mm??
DO NOT BE CLOSE TO WARIO
DO NOT GET FARTED ON
KILL WARIO
but seriously
I think the matchup is pretty even, both have nice air games, both space well, It just comes down not being predictable with d-smashes and even retreating side b-s, as they can be punishes if predicted.
50:50 imo
(even though i barely have any experience lawlz)
but seriously phantom mm??
Snakeee
Smash Master
You can't shieldgrab if you get hit
I'm talking about guaranteed attacks out of shield while you're doing an aerial mostly.
And the up air is actually pretty decisive for a lot of her match ups, believe it or not
*shrugs* We'll play in two weeks 
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
Well let me clear this up for you it takes action to make your point.
ZSS does not have many problems with wario besides that his front smash has little bit of super armor.
Wario on the other has to approach ZSS because he has no projectiles or expandable whipping action.
every character has bad matchups besides MK, ZSS has only a few and recently added in mines and wario is not one of them. i will go in to more detail today when i wakeup
Yes, her amazingly slow projectiles that are stopped by a bike and don't traverse even half the stage and her easily dodgeable/spaceable whip will force us to approach so badly *rollseyes*
Wario's Fsmash isn't even good to use aside from killing, b/c it's one of the most punishable moves on shield ever.
Wario's Fsmash isn't even good to use aside from killing, b/c it's one of the most punishable moves on shield ever.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
*subscribes*
Space control, man. Whether you have options to beat the projectile/whip or not, you have to use one of them. You can't just stand there. In that way, I have more control over you from a distance than you do me. Even airdodging puts you at a disadvantage against Plasma Whip. You're only good against it if you PS it, but Wario doesn't have the speed and range to punish it.
Lol airdodging doesn't put us at a disadvantage, how is dodging your sh** and getting closer (or being able to back off if we are running away) bad? Especially if we can fart on you, Fsmash, grab, etc if we close in?
Wario can also jump completely over Plasma Whip depending on how you space it, and then just fart on you or Dair or fall with Clap/Chomp. It's not that great of a move against Wario.
Wario can also jump completely over Plasma Whip depending on how you space it, and then just fart on you or Dair or fall with Clap/Chomp. It's not that great of a move against Wario.
There is always landing lag, airdodge or no. Even then, any airdodge has some degree of vulnerability. A good ZSS will time the Plasma Whip to end in time to punish that lag.
And a good ZSS will also not use Plasma Whip too close to Wario in this match-up. This is the first thing I learned in the match-up, and is in fact one of the first things I said about the match-up.
Finally, a good ZSS shouldn't be approaching with Plasma Whip unless you're offstage.
1. It's REALLY HARD to time just about ANYTHING to end just in time to punish 2 frames of landing lag, especially when the move has a fairly large amount of start up time. Whip that takes awhile to attack + Wario mobility + Airdodge = extremely hard to punish him when he lands from an airdodge.
2. It's pretty obvious when ZSS is gonna whip. Especially at longer ranges. Using Plasma Whip at near maximum range vs Wario doesn't accomplish much except letting him close the gap, which is bad. It's just not good to use overall because it either let's Wario get closer or if you use it too close to him there's a good chance he will punish it. It doesn't even kill him very soon compared to Bair or Uair. It outranges Wario but honestly I am more worried about say a surprise Bair or Uair or Dsmash than I am of Side B.
3. Lol I didn't say anything about approaching with that move, it's obviously not a good approaching tool vs most characters anyways.
Trust me, it's a lot easier for Wario to just simply dodge her plasma whip, irregardless of the distance, than it is for her to achieve good spacing with it and also punish Wario's airdodge/hit him. I don't recommend using it much vs him simply because in most situations it doesn't really bother him.
noradseven
Smash Lord
I don't know what these guys are talking about I punish landing lag with back air which has a few active frames and comes out pretty much instantly, neutral air and over B are a bit more tricky but more rewarding. This match like I said I think is close ZSS has this game won because she out prioritizes Wario in the air, both u-air and back air beat him. But like you guys mentioned if you do something unexpected get around us and blam, we can die pretty fast.
If you have played a good ZSS you would know they do over B while running away, otherwise pretty much every character and there mom beats us.
You know that we don't just mindlessly toss items at you, but yeah Wario doesn't have as much of a problem against items as many people think I can agree with this.
Airdodging Plasma Whip isn't enough, though, because you have to be prepared for my next move, which will come right on the heels of Plasma Whip, because it's a very quick move on end lag. Even if I don't punish the lag, you have to think about what I'll do next. At that point, it becomes a matter of who guesses right, and that doesn't play into a match-up. When it comes down to prediction, then it's a 50/50 situation.
And you keep saying "if you use it too close" when I've been saying, again and again and again that you DON'T DO THAT. You don't really do that against anyone in the cast, and Wario is no exception. You just learn how to space the move, and you use it at the right spacing. You're creating a hypothetical situation that degrades the ZSS's ability, so of course you're going to win out. Technically, if you mistime your airdodge, I'll hit you with Plasma Whip. If you don't tech or SDI, I'll get you in a dsmash Plasma Wire infinite. If if if if if. This is not a discussion of ifs
And you keep saying "if you use it too close" when I've been saying, again and again and again that you DON'T DO THAT. You don't really do that against anyone in the cast, and Wario is no exception. You just learn how to space the move, and you use it at the right spacing. You're creating a hypothetical situation that degrades the ZSS's ability, so of course you're going to win out. Technically, if you mistime your airdodge, I'll hit you with Plasma Whip. If you don't tech or SDI, I'll get you in a dsmash Plasma Wire infinite. If if if if if. This is not a discussion of ifs
lol, I just feed Wario the suit pieces. Mostly because it's hilarious.
Lol.
I never mentioned anything about ZSS using it stationary or even approaching with it. I assumed her running backwards and turning to use it, or hopping backwards facing the same way and then using it.
Either way, it's predictable, takes awhile to come out, and it's not a good tool to punish airdodges or landing lag because IT HAS A LOT OF START UP LAG. Faster attacks like Bair work better, but that also has less range, and she can't move as fast as Wario in the air.
Like I said, either I can close the gap, retreat, or punish your lag. Airdodging it is enough, in fact I can actually airdodge the Side B and land right in front of her and watch as the Whip misses me. The first hitbox of the whip close to her doesn't last too long, after that you can stand right in her face and watch her miss. I can also just try to double jump over you if you are trying to short hop and use it.
And yeah I say "IF" you use it too close because you will get punished for it. I'm not saying you guys suck or cannot space the move, but granted if you do INDEED use it too close to us, whether you misspace it or mistime it or for whatever reason, you will get punished hard for it.
Point is, Side B sucks overall vs us because it doesn't accomplish much for you guys. It's not a very scary move in her arsenal compared to what else she has.
First of all, what lag? You mean those eleven frames? A well-spaced Plasma Whip leaves enough time you shouldn't be able to punish it unless you PS it. Second of all, you're still assuming that ZSS will use this move at a spacing that allows you to get that close by dodging it in the first place. Finally, the point of my whole if rant was that ifs don't matter in a match-up, because they easily go both ways. They have no bearing on the match-up. Technically IF you screw up, I can lay some major hurt on you, as well. I haven't brought that up, though.
And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it's her best move in the match-up. It just gives her space control, and you seem intent on asserting that it doesn't, which is absurd.
Plasma Whip is a spacing and pressuring tool.
I don't intend to hit with it. It's much more difficult to dodge than shield, which is why it pressures shields so well.
Kaitou Ace
Smash Apprentice
A lot of the Warios coming in here are assuming that ZSS will absolutely phail as soon as they get in close range with her. First of all, the boxing scenario is obviously not one of her strengths but this does not mean she doesn't have any tools at her disposal. Her jab and dtilt are pretty great if you ask me, especially her dtilt that makes you GTFO and sends you in her ideal trajectory: diagonally in front of her --> UAIR ****.
It's a little unfair for you to be calling Plasma Whip a very laggy and predictable move. If it were, we'd be smart enough for it to not be one of our most used moves in all our matches. The fact of the matter is, yes it has some start up lag but it doesn't leave her completely helpless. The inner hitbox can protect her from you punishing her as well and usually that sends you into the sweet spot and you eat a nice 18%. Also, claiming that you would punish us "hard" is a bit of a stretch. You guys know more than anyone that Wario's ground game is somewhat mediocre and his tilts leave a lot to be desired. We will eat some damage but it shouldn't be too much for us to be concerned about.
Also, Wario does have greater aerial mobility but that's not really what we would be going for in the matchup. A good ZSS will strategize to get you above her anywhere in about a 180 degree angle where she can easily utilize her great range and fairy quick aerials and Plasma Wire, etc. Even if you do get close to us in the air if you airdodge or whatnot, we still have Nair which has more range than people think it does and has some interesting trajectories that help ZSS a lot on some parts of the hitbox.
tl;dr ZSS doesn't suck and has more options than you think she does.
It's a little unfair for you to be calling Plasma Whip a very laggy and predictable move. If it were, we'd be smart enough for it to not be one of our most used moves in all our matches. The fact of the matter is, yes it has some start up lag but it doesn't leave her completely helpless. The inner hitbox can protect her from you punishing her as well and usually that sends you into the sweet spot and you eat a nice 18%. Also, claiming that you would punish us "hard" is a bit of a stretch. You guys know more than anyone that Wario's ground game is somewhat mediocre and his tilts leave a lot to be desired. We will eat some damage but it shouldn't be too much for us to be concerned about.
Also, Wario does have greater aerial mobility but that's not really what we would be going for in the matchup. A good ZSS will strategize to get you above her anywhere in about a 180 degree angle where she can easily utilize her great range and fairy quick aerials and Plasma Wire, etc. Even if you do get close to us in the air if you airdodge or whatnot, we still have Nair which has more range than people think it does and has some interesting trajectories that help ZSS a lot on some parts of the hitbox.
tl;dr ZSS doesn't suck and has more options than you think she does.
To be fair, Kaitou... we're getting a lot of that same "ZSS spaces too well for Wario to get in her range" vibe that the DKs gave when we first discussed the matchup and our CG on them. You can TRY to space Wario, but he WILL close the gap, like it or not. If we can close in on brickwalling MKs and GWs, we can get in your face as well.
Also, Wario's best ground option is his 6 frame grab, which is why I usually only include jab when discussing the 'boxing' scenario.
Also, Wario's best ground option is his 6 frame grab, which is why I usually only include jab when discussing the 'boxing' scenario.
Kaitou Ace
Smash Apprentice
His grab game is really sweet but I'd think that ZSS's floaty nature leaves her less susceptible to your follow ups from let's say..a Dthrow than the rest of the cast. Also, ZSS is faster than Wario and while he can punish us, ZSS has advantages that leave our opponent unable to punish. DownB has 12 frames of invincibility and we would use that to escape to the ledge with Wario's afterlag if possible because it's better to concede the ground game loss than attempt to win it. We have pretty good options off the ledge as Uair usually goes throw the ledge and so does Plasma Wire (can anyone say Lylat? <3) so we can get you off our backs.
Then this leads us to two scenarios:
1) You chase us on the ground and try to punish from the ground with a DACUS usmash or utilt (which I think is Wario's better tilt) however, we have a decent air dodge and we have some scary options from FFing so it's usually not the best idea to pursue
OR
2) You follow us in the air which is a far better option but still has some problems. First of all, your Fair is pretty bad and I know from experience as I attempted to pick up Wario from a while ago so it's not the best option. Your Nair is pretty sweet but the range isn't too formidable. Uair is your best option because we have no good down-facing attack, unless the ZSS is ballsy enough to think Dair would be the best option in said scenario. For example, if we FF bair, you're knocked back pretty far which gives us time to Plasma wire boost jump and juggle with Uair, which Wario doesn't have much of an answer for.
I personally think that Wario is a great character and his aerial mobility leaves him less affected by ZSS's spacing tools as the rest of the cast. I also acknowledge that Wario WILL close the gap and has tools to utilize to punish our lag but IMO, those options are something the ZSS usually can afford to take, unless we're at 100% and you ftilt but ZSS players should and usually do change their playstyle in high damage scenarios.
I'm not saying Wario sucks in anyway so please don't take it as that. However, in the boxing scenario and close-range scenario, Wario isn't actually that better off than ZSS and when he does punish her accordingly, his follow-ups aren't nearly as effective as on other characters.
I think that matchup is slightly in ZSS's favor but there's room to argue that it's even.
Then this leads us to two scenarios:
1) You chase us on the ground and try to punish from the ground with a DACUS usmash or utilt (which I think is Wario's better tilt) however, we have a decent air dodge and we have some scary options from FFing so it's usually not the best idea to pursue
OR
2) You follow us in the air which is a far better option but still has some problems. First of all, your Fair is pretty bad and I know from experience as I attempted to pick up Wario from a while ago so it's not the best option. Your Nair is pretty sweet but the range isn't too formidable. Uair is your best option because we have no good down-facing attack, unless the ZSS is ballsy enough to think Dair would be the best option in said scenario. For example, if we FF bair, you're knocked back pretty far which gives us time to Plasma wire boost jump and juggle with Uair, which Wario doesn't have much of an answer for.
I personally think that Wario is a great character and his aerial mobility leaves him less affected by ZSS's spacing tools as the rest of the cast. I also acknowledge that Wario WILL close the gap and has tools to utilize to punish our lag but IMO, those options are something the ZSS usually can afford to take, unless we're at 100% and you ftilt but ZSS players should and usually do change their playstyle in high damage scenarios.
I'm not saying Wario sucks in anyway so please don't take it as that. However, in the boxing scenario and close-range scenario, Wario isn't actually that better off than ZSS and when he does punish her accordingly, his follow-ups aren't nearly as effective as on other characters.
I think that matchup is slightly in ZSS's favor but there's room to argue that it's even.
Space control doesn't mean hitting you. It means space control. It means threatening a target and forcing you to do something about the threat. If you go into the air at a distance that I feel safe using Plasma Whip from, I'll try to put a Plasma Whip where you want to go, because it limits your options. If you're too close for that, I have other means of space control.
And it's not like ZSS doesn't have the means to shake Wario off, either. A three frame utilt, a four frame uair and a one frame jab all mean she has the means to knock away people who are too close for comfort.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
I would put this at 45-55 Wario if we have to put a number on this, because he does kill more reliably. That's really the breaker, because no one should get gimped, and they both have ways to beat each other's typical playstyles, leaving it mostly down to MU experience imo.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I really don't think it is easier for him to KO her. Wario may technically have more KO power overall, but ZSS' KO ability is more "reliable."
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
See I disagree, even without weight as a factor, Wario's Uair has a rediculous hitbox, easier to land with than our bair. Fsmash or ftilt are good too but imo ZSS shouldn't get hit with it.
Not to mention if they manage to land an early half waft kill you're at a severe disadvantage trying to comeback against an air camping wario.
ZSSs should use the match timer to know when Wario has a charged up waft, they won't be letting it get to fully charged state so you won't have the blinking cue. It's not super easy to land, but can easily cost you the match if it does.
Not to mention if they manage to land an early half waft kill you're at a severe disadvantage trying to comeback against an air camping wario.
ZSSs should use the match timer to know when Wario has a charged up waft, they won't be letting it get to fully charged state so you won't have the blinking cue. It's not super easy to land, but can easily cost you the match if it does.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I hardly ever get hit with his up air.....and I KO a lot with B-air, but Up airs are easier if not too degenerated at the time
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
O_o im pretty sure MK and GWs don't have a plasma whip and a paralyzer. Every ZSS player has their own playing style my playing style i will let u come close enough to get paralyzed and get grabbed right after.
Whose side are you on O_o we have difference maker the out of no where flip kick. If u lose to Wario you don't have to drag us down with you.
Oh please we have the flip kick/flip stool and it has invisibility frames.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
sorry if you're getting that vibe. I know for certain that Wario WILL get in my face multiple times this match. It's really about doing interesting things to play keep away and trying to rack on damage while he's trying to get in that zone. We have really good tools for that, side-b, u-smash, and u-air in concert can be deadly, since it's a lot of pressure to airdodge, but at completely different timings.
I think killing will be a pain in the *** for both characters, with the advantage to Wario. Waft kills are ridiculous and a u-air will kill us pretty early, even if it is slightly predictable, it's still fast and Wario is a good character to use it. However, I think ZSS wins in the damage racking department, she can get Wario up to kill range pretty **** fast with linked u-airs and u-smashs. Also, b-air is reaaally easy to connect with on Wario, because we can punish airdodges pretty **** well with it, and you'll probably be doing that a lot against us.
Also, I'm not gonna join in on d.m.g.'s and ph00t's pissing contest, other than to say that ph00t is right, side-b is a good spacing tool and it's not bypassed completely just by airdodge.