Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[Kaitou Ace]

This is offtopic, but I've seen it a lot recently in matchup threads - what does KB mean?

Knockback O:

 

[noradseven]

I personally don't know this matchup, but I personally think the infinite thing pretty much a non issue.

Personally I would imagine wario to be tricky in the fact that he will out prioritize us everywhere and we basically just have to play defensive until he makes a mistake, the whip also seems to do better than average against him, but I would like to hear from people who have more exp with this match.

I would figure its close to even no better than a 6:4 either way.

 

[Snakeee]

It's ZSS' favor, either 55/45 or 60/40. Her up air beats all of his aerials, and b-air is great too if you space yourself.

 

[Nefarious B]

Are you sure our uair beats dair? That's huge if it does.

 

[FadedImage]

ig'nant stuff

lol, "just one fair and you're gimped" lollololol. mm me next time you're in SoCal, we'll count how many times I get gimped.

the infinite does not matter in this match-up, it's too hard to practice and it takes too long to rack up damage, IT'S USELESS.

air-releasing to fair is good, but that's if you get a grab, hard as hell imo.

Snakeee, I think you're oversimplifying the aerial thing. Yeah, you beat everything he's got when you're directly under him, a position that is eaaaasily lost with a simple airdodge, and then you're above him, and screwed.


and yes, u-air beats his d-air. Before Fiction realized it, I ***** him quite handily, but he adapted and mixed up his aerial approach to compensate, it's 50-50

 

[MorphedChaos]

50:50 works. Guess it was Uair that beat Dair. Its not ZSS's favor, but guess its not Wario if you guys are sure about the Uair. Remember, Wario is a beast for air approaches. And yeah, I might be underestimating ZSS, don't fight them as often as I fight MKs and Snakes . Still don't think its ZSS's favor though, Wario is just too heavy, and he does kill you earlier then you'll kill him.

 

[Snakeee]

I'm absolutely positive about the up air. Pretty sure you have an aerial that or two that does beat it in speed though. That's why I always try to keep my spacing up

 

[MorphedChaos]

I'm absolutely positive about the up air. Pretty sure you have an aerial that or two that does beat it in speed though. That's why I always try to keep my spacing up

Ok, thats probably why I haven't seen much of it then. Thanks for clearing it up.

Offtopic: Why/where have I seen your avvi before Snakeee?

 

[Snakeee]

Ok, thats probably why I haven't seen much of it then. Thanks for clearing it up.

Offtopic: Why/where have I seen your avvi before Snakeee?

Heh, I know it's on deviantart

 

[smashkng]

It's ZSS' favor, either 55/45 or 60/40. Her up air beats all of his aerials, and b-air is great too if you space yourself.

This doesn't matter much, Wario has insane aerial mobility and he is too hard to predict. Wario also has a very good air dodge.

 

[Zero]

Any character can be unpredictable if played by an unpredictable player. It's a non point.

 

[PhantomX]

It's ZSS' favor, either 55/45 or 60/40. Her up air beats all of his aerials, and b-air is great too if you space yourself.

And Oli's uptilt and nair beat all our moves, and he can actually kill us, yet we still have advantage over him.

There's so much bias and stuff to rebut in this thread that I'm really not even going to bother (case-in-point "Wario will always be spamming dair").

ZSS will win on stages where she can run away if she can keep moving constantly (i.e. large stages [preferably flat] like Lylat, FD, PS1). Once Wario gets in your face you're screwed. You can jab us, that's mostly it, and if you try to do the trip jabs they can be perfect shielded. Dtilt and dsmash if you're facing us will get sh naired most likely, or any of your moves will get shieldgrabbed.

I'd also like to note that due to the trajectory of ZSS' recovery. Throwing the bike over the edge, or even straight up near the edge and then grabbing said edge is amazing against her.

 

[FadedImage]

smart stuff

I agree.

The reason I think ZSS goes par with Wario is because she DOES have the kind of mobility to keep Wario on his toes.

Also, don't be so quick to disregard the d-smash and d-tilt, they're good moves. For instance, I highly doubt you can shorthop over d-smash's hitbox.

 

[ph00tbag]

I'd also like to note that due to the trajectory of ZSS' recovery. Throwing the bike over the edge, or even straight up near the edge and then grabbing said edge is amazing against her.

Thanks for the Flipstool target. Now I can definitely get onstage.

(Hint: don't throw **** at us if you don't want us getting back on.)

 

[Charby]

Best Strategy
FD => grab his fatass with Neutral B full charged and kill him.

 

[Nefarious B]

You mean all I have to do is hit him with my slow *** projectile?

 

[Hence]

You mean all I have to do is hit him with my slow *** projectile?

Oh, absolutely.

 

[PhantomX]

I agree.

The reason I think ZSS goes par with Wario is because she DOES have the kind of mobility to keep Wario on his toes.

Also, don't be so quick to disregard the d-smash and d-tilt, they're good moves. For instance, I highly doubt you can shorthop over d-smash's hitbox.

Dtilt is good, but it props us up, which means a quick dair in retaliation, Dsmash is a good spacer, but I'm pretty sure nair oos comes out faster than it, once we're safely inside your zone.

Now, I hadn't ever tried the bike stuff on ZSS b/c I'd usually gimped with fairs or nairs on tether. You can footstool jump off items? Even those with multiple hitboxes? o_O

 

[DMG]

DMG's MU guide is soooo biased. Wario is a great character (3rd tier imo) but the matchup was never about an infinite, it's that ZSS is fast enough to not get ***** by you like most of the rest of the cast. The thing that really keeps this even if Wario's weight and killing ability, but if not for that I think it'd be ZSS's slight advantage.

I would say 50-50, maybe 45-55 Wario, but really I'd like to see a match of some of the top respective players in a tournie, I think both sides are underestimating each other.

Of course the matchup was never about the infinite lol.

And yeah it's Wario's advantage 45:55-40:60 on average. Some stages are horrible for her though vs Wario.

You don't have one of the best recoveries in the game

Lolwhut?

Wario's recovery is pretty far up there as one of the best.

Your recovery is quite standard. In fact, ZSS's is probably better.

Lolwhut?

Our recovery is standard? Hell if our recovery is standard then 90% of the rest of the characters have a CRAPPY recovery. And no, ZSS doesn't have a better recovery than Wario in nearly every aspect (distance, safeness, versatility, etc).



I think Wario beats her on average 55:45 to 60:40. Depends a lot on the stage and how well Wario can run on it. On Smashville for example, I think she loses 60:40 or worse. Same for Lylat. For YI it's probably 55:45.

Some stages though she will probably lose on worse though. I can see huge stages like Delfino, Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise, and Japes, among others, being bad for her.

 

[ph00tbag]

Now, I hadn't ever tried the bike stuff on ZSS b/c I'd usually gimped with fairs or nairs on tether. You can footstool jump off items? Even those with multiple hitboxes? o_O

We can flipstool off of all sorts of crazy things. Anything but energy projectiles is a good catch-all.

 

[PhantomX]

K, then we won't throw it at you, just bounce it up and down near the edge so that you down be beneath it.

Thanks for that tip though, did not know that, figured it was just walls XD

 

[Charby]

it's simple if you succeed stunning wario on a flat zone or grabbing him, he is dead if you mastered the infinite.
So the dsmash is deadly. But a good wario wont be easy to caugh, so that's important to mix the game and not being obsess by grabbing his fatass

 

[DMG]

it's simple if you succeed stunning wario on a flat zone or grabbing him, he is dead if you mastered the infinite.
So the dsmash is deadly. But a good wario wont be easy to caugh, so that's important to mix the game and not being obsess by grabbing his fatass

1. You can't properly infinite him until around 45-50%. If you pummel I can get out if you do it under that range.

2. If we just ban/strike FD for the set, you are gonna be hard pressed to find a good stage where you can reliably do this without interferences.

3. If you mess up, you get punished hard. And I mean SUPER HARD.

4. A lot of tourneys have this banned as a standing infinite, usually on the basis of stalling/time issues.

It's not that big of an issue for Wario, considering he's not only hard to grab but you have to put up with those ^^^^^^^^^ too.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is just another match-up discussion where top player opinions (FadedImage, arguably best ZSS in Cali and one of the best on the west coast) are discounted by the other guy because ZSS can't get no respect. Rodney Zero Suit Samus Dangerfield, folks.

It's 50:50, give-or-take 5 points in either direction, but this is not a 40:60 matchup.

We don't need the infinite. No, you won't gimp us. No, you won't shut our airgame down with dair. Anything else?

 

[PhantomX]

This is just another match-up discussion where top player opinions (FadedImage, arguably best ZSS in Cali and one of the best on the west coast) are discounted by the other guy because ZSS can't get no respect. Rodney Zero Suit Samus Dangerfield, folks.

It's 50:50, give-or-take 5 points in either direction, but this is not a 40:60 matchup.

We don't need the infinite. No, you won't gimp us. No, you won't shut our airgame down with dair. Anything else?

ZSS gets respect. Notice how DMG only refuted his claims that our recovery wasn't amazing, when it very much is. He didn't refute anything Faded said about his character, just a few things that he said about OUR character.

I'd also like to point out that it's silly to assume you're ungimpable. It's unlikely, but it's more likely that we gimp you (I manage to pull it off from time to time) than vice .

Matchup numbers are just silly, arbitrary, and trite. I personally prefer to skip them altogether (notice I haven't given any) and point out the strengths and weakenesses each character has in the matchup. Saves time, saves trouble.

 

[Charby]

Well if my opponent ban FD instead of BF , it's nice.
And in my country standing infinite are allowed PhantomX. And we have an amazing wario.
Well pay me a trip for texas, and ill be nice to test your rules =)

 

[DMG]

Sigh...

I don't give a **** about the infinite lol. A lot of people go on and on about how ZSS wrecks Wario because she can infinite him, so I point out how relatively little it means in the grand scheme of things. If someone is gonna use an infinite on me, I have no problem pointing out or even showing the flaws in it, just to make it clear that it doesn't really affect the matchup.

The matchup isn't 50:50 overall IMO. I'm not saying that because I don't understand ZSS, I'm saying that because Wario is SUPER GAY and happens to win this matchup. Let me repeat that, Wario is SUPER HOMO, super gay. The only possible stage she could have a 50:50 on is FD, and we can just use our stage ban/strike on that. Everything else I can think of is 55:45 for him or higher, in some cases breaking past 60:40 sadly (Rainbow Cruise and Japes fit this bill among others).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS gets respect. Notice how DMG only refuted his claims that our recovery wasn't amazing, when it very much is. He didn't refute anything Faded said about his character, just a few things that he said about OUR character.

I'd also like to point out that it's silly to assume you're ungimpable. It's unlikely, but it's more likely that we gimp you (I manage to pull it off from time to time) than vice .

About recovery, there is just this stigma that floats around regarding ZSS, the character, and her recovery. Check the GaW boards: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5117044#post5117044 There are 100 things wrong with this summary, posted by a guy who is a top player. I realize that we are talking about rather old information, but to be fair, ZSS was never "easily gimped." She is probably one of the game's more difficult characters to gimp for nearly anyone save for Sheik.

Matchup numbers are just silly, arbitrary, and trite. I personally prefer to skip them altogether (notice I haven't given any) and point out the strengths and weakenesses each character has in the matchup. Saves time, saves trouble.

I don't have a problem with the numbers if they are accompanied by supporting arguments that are generally considered to be correct and factual. Our tier list and match-up data is gathered much differently than that of most fighting games so we're dealing with hypothesis and anecdotal information no matter how it's handled.

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah, I have nothing bad to say about Gluttony's Wario How do you usually do against him?

Do you do the grab release, pummel, regrab? B/c I saw in SOME French ZSS' combo vid the dsmash one, but that's escapable. If so, keep in mind you have to start that one sometime after 40%, or it can be broken during the first pummel.

BF shouldn't be a place you want to go. You want to keep Wario above you, where you're safer, BF gives more ways for him to get below you. Flat is good for you guys, flat and long (lol innuendo)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, I have nothing bad to say about Gluttony's Wario How do you usually do against him?

Do you do the grab release, pummel, regrab? B/c I saw in SOME French ZSS' combo vid the dsmash one, but that's escapable. If so, keep in mind you have to start that one sometime after 40%, or it can be broken during the first pummel.

BF shouldn't be a place you want to go. You want to keep Wario above you, where you're safer, BF gives more ways for him to get below you. Flat is good for you guys, flat and long (lol innuendo)

Most ZSS players really like BF and Lylat because like you, we like it when our target is above us.

 

[PhantomX]

Lol, yeah, you're right. There's a bit of a conundrum there though, b/c Wario likes his opponents to be stationary, easier to shieldpoke/pressure/bite if they attempt to hide. Her uptilt isn't as great at keeping Wario out from getting under the platforms as say, D3s or Snake's uptilt, or Marth's upair though, so he will probably be able to get you out.

Your run speed actually outpaces our aerial speed, you should be abusing that.

 

[ph00tbag]

The matchup isn't 50:50 overall IMO. I'm not saying that because I don't understand ZSS, I'm saying that because Wario is SUPER GAY and happens to win this matchup. Let me repeat that, Wario is SUPER HOMO, super gay. The only possible stage she could have a 50:50 on is FD, and we can just use our stage ban/strike on that. Everything else I can think of is 55:45 for him or higher, in some cases breaking past 60:40 sadly (Rainbow Cruise and Japes fit this bill among others).

I think you do underestimate ZSS's potential for gayness, though, no offense. If I time one move right at the beginning of any match, I can run away and easily outcamp Wario. I can even do some similar tricks on Japes.

This is why I could easily see the match-up as even, if you're going to break it down to who can be gayer. If it's going to come down to who gets the first hit off, as you would have it played, then it's definitely 50/50.

 

[Charby]

Well i didnt play a lot against Gluttony but our matchs are quite even, he won more than me
But we didnt make recent matchs so it's hard to say
I might have some vids on my computer.

 

[DMG]

I think you do underestimate ZSS's potential for gayness, though, no offense. If I time one move right at the beginning of any match, I can run away and easily outcamp Wario. I can even do some similar tricks on Japes.

This is why I could easily see the match-up as even, if you're going to break it down to who can be gayer. If it's going to come down to who gets the first hit off, as you would have it played, then it's definitely 50/50.

Lol nu uh you cannot outcamp Wario with her, she's good at physically running but not being mobile overall. If she gets cornered or runs to the side of a stage and needs to get away from there, she can't do it quite like Wario can.

If you can run away from Wario/run away better than he can all game long, then you shouldn't lose to any other character aside from MK.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Sigh...

I don't give a **** about the infinite lol. A lot of people go on and on about how ZSS wrecks Wario because she can infinite him, so I point out how relatively little it means in the grand scheme of things. If someone is gonna use an infinite on me, I have no problem pointing out or even showing the flaws in it, just to make it clear that it doesn't really affect the matchup.

The matchup isn't 50:50 overall IMO. I'm not saying that because I don't understand ZSS, I'm saying that because Wario is SUPER GAY and happens to win this matchup. Let me repeat that, Wario is SUPER HOMO, super gay. The only possible stage she could have a 50:50 on is FD, and we can just use our stage ban/strike on that. Everything else I can think of is 55:45 for him or higher, in some cases breaking past 60:40 sadly (Rainbow Cruise and Japes fit this bill among others).

THIS, I don't think you ZSS mains know how fing gay Wario can be. I'm now just starting to aircamp the first match of a set for psychological games, no matter the character (Unless its a character that I can't reliably aircamp on, then I just fight them normally, although very gay.) Now if I do this, I'll either get 1 of 3 situations

1. They punch me in the face, disqualifying them and I get a free lawsuit.
2. They get very angry, thus their game starts to slip.
3. Nothing happens, but this is HIGHLY unlikely.

Dunno, but I'm siding with DMG now that I've got his say , ban FD and its 55:45 Wario. when I do get to ZSS, I WILL put that if ZSS takes you to FD watch out though

And any of you ZSS mains have a nice pic I could use for her thats not too big? Female characters = bad to get pictures for most of the time on DA.

 

[DMG]

Why do you always agree with me Morphed? lol.

You always side with me, like anyone expected anything different

Also get some videos up, you sound like you play Wario gayer than I do lol. I play Wario gay but jeez playing him gay on the very first match? I can't even match that level of super competitive homo-ness.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Its hard to do it on neutral stages DMG, really hard >.>

Also, I dunno why, but I find aircamping more fun then straight out brawling, so I do it pretty often >.>.

And of course I'm going to agree with you, you showed me the wonder that is THE WARIO! to to mention you make good points. Now if I can just get some dang vids up, so far I've only got friendlies with uber lag.

and honestly, I don't get why aircamping causes such psychological problems, its just a game. Humans are such queer creatures...

 

[DMG]

BECAUSE IT'S SUPER GAY lol. That's why people hate it/play differently/freak out.

 

[MorphedChaos]

BECAUSE IT'S SUPER GAY lol. That's why people hate it/play differently/freak out.

Yep, and that is why its so good to use against them. Torment the weak minded for a win, and eh, a win is a win, especially with money on the line, right?

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

You guys REALLY like wario a lot...