Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

[Yankee]

Fine, So we all vote for separate discussion threads then when either of them are ready to update we add it to the main discussion thread?

So I'm not the only one who has been gone a while (i bought a 360). That sounds a lot better, it will prevent the main thread from going off on tangents like it kind of has. The main thread could maybe also serve as a place for more general match up discussions not limited to one character and things like that.

 

[FadedImage]

what's the point of adding a separate discussion thread that's not stickied to the forums?

I formatted OP to make things easy to wade through everything, even if a lot of the posts are off-topic/lulzy.

Sorry I haven't been around to update and spend a lot of time on here, Smash is on the backburner for me atm. The only time I spend on it is going to tournaments and such. If anyone wants to take over updating the character and such, it's fine with me.

 

[sasook]

Well what I had meant was creating a brand new topic per each character, discussing it fully, etc.

And then when people are done/satisfied with that matchup, it can be added to

1) The OP of this thread, if ZeroSuit ever comes back

2) The Resource Center

3) both

Like I said before with the ROB boards - their matchup discussion about us isn't in their sticky, it's a topic solely dedicated to the ROB/ZSS matchup.

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231033 like this

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I like that system of the ROB boards. It looks like were gonna do it that way now?

 

[ph00tbag]

1) The OP of this thread, if ZeroSuit ever comes back

Seriously, folks, TheZeroSuit never left.

 

[sasook]

Well, where is he then?

TheZeroSuit is offline
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[ph00tbag]

Well, where is he then?

TheZeroSuit is offline
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Last Activity: 02-10-2009 05:30 PM

TheZeroSuit is watching this thread, right now.

 

[Bouse]

TheZeroSuit is watching this thread, right now.

TheZeroSuit watches all threads, in every forum, at the same time.

 

[TheZeroSuit]

TheZeroSuit is watching this thread, right now.

TheZeroSuit watches all threads, in every forum, at the same time.

I'm not that omniscient. For some reason, they won't let me in the SBR.

But yeah, he's right.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

so...how bout that update?

 

[sasook]

O_O

Whoa it's him. Will you finally not be lazy anymore?

EDIT: Offline again -__-

 

[Bouse]

Sasook, TheZeroSuit told me to tell you to not be a squiggity-squaggity.

 

[FadedImage]

The problem with doing multiple threads is that we'll have 34 threads floating around the forums, when we could just as easily have one. There really isn't an advantage to having separate threads.


lol guys, we can update whenever. we vote to talk about Wario?

 

[TheZeroSuit]

I said he's a squiggity-squillity, not a squiggity-squaggity. You're a f*cking moron Bouse.

 

[Snakeee]

Samus looks like she's in that bar in star wars ep IV in that avatar

 

[Bouse]

I said he's a squiggity-squillity, not a squiggity-squaggity. You're a f*cking moron Bouse.

But a squiggity-squaggity is a person who flips his wigdig on the flunkadoodle. A squiggity-squillity is the flipnoquin that fwomps a giplix on the biphnark.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

squily squally gilupaflunkawha?

haha anyways,

I hereby with the authority of all the off-topic ZSS players re-start this discussion with...

Wario

​

Discuss please...

 

[ph00tbag]

Space SH Plasma Whip really far away. Use aerials. Camp. Let Wario eat the pieces for lulz. Grab if you can, and grab release. If the chain is banned (which it probably will be), release him to uair, nair, bair, usmash... Plasma Wire?

He can do some nasty stuff. Aggressive Warios are harder than Defensive ones, but avoiding most of his stuff is fairly straightforward. Don't shield too much, lest you be bitten. Don't worry too much about edge guarding him. He'll probably get back on anyway.

Be reeeeeeally patient.

55/45 or maybe 6/4 ZSS's favor. This is just my general impression, though. I don't think it's much worse for ZSS than even, though.

 

[sasook]

What is the infinite on him anyway? How is it performed?

 

[TheZeroSuit]

WARIO

There is currently no information on Wario in either Orion's or Snakeee's thread.

Sounds like we've got our work cut out for us.

 

[FadedImage]

comin from socal I can say that we have Warios crawling out the anus. At least, we used to. It seems to have died off, but we still have some of the best out here (Futile and Fiction).

So let's get the infinite out of the way first. **** is hard, no doubt about it. To perform, you have to grab release into the air (so no platforms) and then regrab with only a couple frames of error. There is no way (to my knowledge) of getting a guaranteed d-smash out of grab release. So in general, it's a pummel infinite. (and thus, not really worth it). BUT, we can still force air release, which means we can get guaranteed hits on him out of it (like ph00t stated). I personally like doing f-air, but I would also like to look into up-b, that sounds like a solid idea.


Now, as for the actual match-up.

in the air, Wario is a beaaaaast. his airdodge is above par, is aerial control is astounding, his dair is a **** multi hit and sets up for tons of stuff and autocancels easy, his nair has two hitboxes and ***** sauce. All of this combined with the fact that he can airgrab at any time (given 2 frames). Probably the only reliable way to encounter Wario in the air is with B-Air or U-Air, but be careful with U-Air, because if you jump past him you're going to get ***** (clap/anything he wants). He's got way too much air control to get hit with aerial side-bs on a frequent basis, and that same aerial control lets him punish you too.

As for the ground, just watch out for his f-smash and grabs really, I don't know any Warios that spend all that much time on the ground. You can punish a lot of his ground stuff with grabs so they'll be really hesitant to use them.

A big focus here is avoiding Warios kill moves. If you take away f-smash and u-air you can survive to a ridiculously high percent. Of course, watch for wafts at low percent, that can set the match into a "holy **** I need to catch-up" pace, which you really don't want.

As for edgeguarding, either way I doubt there will be a lot of gimp kills. I mean, Wario's f-air is a pretty good GTFO aerial, but he just doesn't have the vertical speed to catch up with ZSS. As for him, if he's forced to use the bike abuse the **** out of that fact and try to predict where he'll JUMP OUT of the bike. However, his aerial control means he'll raaaarely use the bike. Also, sidenote: his up-b can't sweetspot the ledge, so if he has to use it, d-smash the **** right out of him.

In general: this match is a ****load of u-smash. surprisingly enough u-smash is a ridiculously good move here. it's one of ZSS's only answers to Wario's aerial superiority, it'll hit through everything of his AND punish airdodges (if spaced properly). And once you've got Wario at a higher altitude it's easier to properly space u-airs and b-airs.


uhh yeah, I think that's it.

 

[Nefarious B]

Warios just found that they can escape the dsmash grab infinite by buffering a reverse bike out of it, just an fyi.

 

[FadedImage]

Warios just found that they can escape the dsmash grab infinite by buffering a reverse bike out of it, just an fyi.

lol, they can escape just by holding back and jumping.

There is no way (to my knowledge) of getting a guaranteed d-smash out of grab release.

 

[PhantomX]

Jumping didn't use to work, lol.

 

[smashkng]

Can a Wario DI the dsmash in a way to escape from the Zamus infinite?

 

[ph00tbag]

Can a Wario DI the dsmash in a way to escape from the Zamus infinite?

As has been said, buffered Bike gets you out of the dsmash out of grab release. Wario can't be infinited any other way.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Usmash is all you got, otherwise you guys are just soo light and so easily gimped with Fair that its ridiculous. Not to mention you will NOT kill us unless we are going to die from the hit in one go, since our recovery is one of the best in the game. And now that we can escape the infinite, and Chomp beats out your non-whip attacks besides your I believe Nair, its 6:4 Wario.

 

[FadedImage]

the infinite regrab is inescapable last I checked.

avoiding the dsmash is EASY, you hold AWAY and JUMP.


as for the previous post, lolignorance.

You don't have one of the best recoveries in the game, you have some of the best AERIAL CONTROL in the game, and Wario is one of the HEAVIEST characters in the game. Your recovery is quite standard. In fact, ZSS's is probably better. And most likely, we'll be able to get past Wario's f-air "so easily" it's ridiculous. Plus it's really easy to jump over or go under Wario. I haven't been gimped by a Wario last time I checked, I dunno, I'll have to ask Fiction, definitely not once per match though.

As for killing, one benefit we have in this match up is the ease of connecting with a b-air. Since Wario spends most of his time in the air, we don't have to try as hard to land our aerial kill move, which we will save till your at kill range (140%). I agree, this is much higher than ZSS's kill percent against Wario's f-smash or clap (~120 or ~100). However, to me, connecting with f-smash or clap can be a pain in the ***. Clap is going to be more reliable and less risky than f-smash.

I don't see this being in Wario's favor. However, I don't see it in ZSS's advantage either.

 

[cba]

I have played good warios.

I deninetly think that its 55-45 ZSS.

In any other stage but FD wario does exceptionally well.
In platforms, i think that ZSS can do good; she doesnt have a infinite anyway and the platforms help her camp and her attacks wont be so predictable.

 

[Hence]

Bike > Paralyzer Shots

Plasma Whip > Bike

Therefore, It would be really risky to use Wario's bike in his normal manner for this matchup.

-
Flip-Jump > Wario's D-Throw faux Chaingrab/Tech Chase.
-

As FadedImage said, getting an U-Air or F-Smash off against ZSS is going to be a challenge. So then, If a Wario was to be desperate enough to use D-Smash for a kill, Zero Suit Samus would easily be one of the best characters to punish it.

Wario's recovery doesn't sweetspot the edge, enough said.

I've played against a Midwest Wario main in tournament named CRUNCH. Offline, I'd say Wario is at least high tier. Never underestimate in this matchup and space as if your life depended on it. Most Wario mains are extremely campy. If you expect to succeed in this matchup, expect to be just as campy.

Pivot Grabs to begin the infinite are godly here, just don't miss (lol).

50:50, even.

 

[ph00tbag]

For the record, Wario's Corkscrew attack does sweetspot the edge, but only in the last 10-20 frames, and that's a generous estimate.

and Chomp beats out your non-whip attacks besides your I believe Nair

I'm pretty sure uair beats bite.

 

[Hence]

I'm pretty sure uair beats bite.

Undoubtly if spaced properly and the opponent is airborne. I guess that would come without saying because priority doesn't exist in the air.

There's always FF backwards U-Air and spaced D-Smashes. -.-

 

[ph00tbag]

There's always FF backwards U-Air and spaced D-Smashes. -.-

Dsmash is really only good with edgeguarding a Wario that doesn't have his bike as an option. Onstage, Wario's air control is too good for most dsmashes to hit.

 

[Hence]

Dsmash is really only good with edgeguarding a Wario that doesn't have his bike as an option. Onstage, Wario's air control is too good for most dsmashes to hit.

Oh, I understand.

I was referring to Bite, as D-Smash is an excellent option for punishing it.

 

[MorphedChaos]

You guys are really underestimating Wario, but meh. We had you in DMG's thread as a 50:50 with your infinite, without it should be 55:45 or 60:40 in Wario's favor. And I can agree with him, since you guys really telegraph your moves, well, your whip attacks at least. And Fair is very easy to connect, don't underestimate it, since I believe Wario moves in the air a tad slower then you do on the ground, or about equal, I'll need to check that one. Also, Waft kills are pretty easy to land on ZSS compared to say, MK, since shes such a tall target.

As for gimping, one Fair then edgehog, and you can't recover. Better if I fair you after you do your DownB, but depending on your percent, that might not be enough.


Course I am Wario Bias, but

 

[Nefarious B]

DMG's MU guide is soooo biased. Wario is a great character (3rd tier imo) but the matchup was never about an infinite, it's that ZSS is fast enough to not get ***** by you like most of the rest of the cast. The thing that really keeps this even if Wario's weight and killing ability, but if not for that I think it'd be ZSS's slight advantage.

I would say 50-50, maybe 45-55 Wario, but really I'd like to see a match of some of the top respective players in a tournie, I think both sides are underestimating each other.

 

[smashkng]

Despite being candidate for infinite releases the fact is that Wario is VERY HARD to grab. He's arguably the hardest to grab because of his insane aerial mobility and being so unpredictable. So if a Zamus get the chance to grab, don't miss because it may be the last time Zamus can do it.

 

[ph00tbag]

You guys are really underestimating Wario, but meh.

FadedImage is not underestimating Wario. He is the best ZSS in SoCal. Does that count for nothing?

Maybe you're underestimating ZSS...

Trivia Time: Wario is my tertiary.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

Wario is not really much of an issue. He's a great character with some of the safest kill options in the game (Fsmash, uair, etc) and his dair is his damage racker. However, ZSS can use this to her advantage by baiting Wario's Dair as he will always be spamming it due to how awesome of a move it is. Bait his dairs and Bairs and Dsmash his face in. Our grabs "suck" but who says we can't grab out of a Dsmash?

Never be in close enough range for his Fsmash, it is a KILLER. Don't ever try to attempt to trade hits. Don't roll, just simply walk away from it and set up a neutral B or dtilt when it's done.

While our air game is pretty solid, so is Wario's, so don't think we have the advantage up in the air. Try to juggle Uairs and Wario will just Dair you out of it and then Uair you for some nasty KB if he sets up right.

Just bait Wario and punish his mistakes because while he's a great character, the majority of his moves ARE mediocre and can be well punished. Keep Wario grounded because you have the range while he has the power but you shouldn't be ballsy enough to think you can contend with Wario in the aerial department.

 

[sasook]

This is offtopic, but I've seen it a lot recently in matchup threads - what does KB mean?