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Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

CoonTail

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ROB is among the worst for being juggled though, isn't he? Charizard isn't know as a great juggler, but I've never had a problem keeping ROB up and doing a whole lot of damage if I get him into the air. Between u-air, u-tilt, n-air, u-smash, and mixing it up with grabs -> u-throw you can keep him up pretty well.
Zard can deff keep someone in the air pretty well tho becaause people dont really state this but u-air > quite a few moves.....so most of robs options to get zard's u-air away from him will be to air dodge more or less because it will beat out almost anything rob tries to do to get through a rising u-air zard. Even d-air and all its lag time wont hit because the zard will hit you before you get it off.

Overall rob is better off trying edge shenanigans like laser and gyro instead of recovering him because unlike snake he doesnt have a way to beat a zard down as he is plummeting towards the stage.
 

TheMike

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Zard can deff keep someone in the air pretty well tho becaause people dont really state this but u-air > quite a few moves.....so most of robs options to get zard's u-air away from him will be to air dodge more or less because it will beat out almost anything rob tries to do to get through a rising u-air zard. Even d-air and all its lag time wont hit because the zard will hit you before you get it off..
ROB's Air Dodge > Dsmash is faster than his Spotdodge > Dsmash. But only if you fast fall, obviously. IMO that's the best option to try to get out of juggles.
 

T-block

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there are still frames where you can be grabbed though. if you airdodge near the ground in an attempt to land, and charizard realizes what you're doing (which isn't hard.... if you're near the ground i'll be expecting an airdodge, and all your aerials can be reacted to), you're probably gonna get grabbed. charizard players are kinda good at landing grabs ;)

i think your best bet is to b-air away from charizard actually. when you're close to the ground it should cover you enough to land.
 

Bomber7

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Just saying. ROB is a fat *** and Charizard has some good sweet spots which can give ROB some trouble. Still somehow think that Charizard wouldn't be a bad choice.
 

TheMike

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Zard isn't as bad as Ivy, but he isn't as good as Squirtle, either. I'd much rather starting with Squirtle than Zard against ROB if I main Pokémon Trainer. :]


And Zard is also a big target. Besides, ROB can camp him well and **** off-stage.
 

Bomber7

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Zard isn't as bad as Ivy, but he isn't as good as Squirtle, either. I'd much rather starting with Squirtle than Zard against ROB if I main Pokémon Trainer. :]


And Zard is also a big target. Besides, ROB can camp him well and **** off-stage.
but not forever mind you. Once he gets on stage, he's Dragon food. Plus Charizard has a decent pressure game. :p
 

Tien2500

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Charizard definitely doesn't do bad against ROB. Charizard's speed helps close in on Rob fast so if you're good at PSing his camping game becomes much less of a threat. Not that he still can't camp decently but its not like he can completely camp Charizard for a whole match. And if Charizard gets in he can reverse the advantage in short time.

Both characters can juggle each other but neither has an amazing juggle game. ROB's KO ability is pretty meh so ROB can have a bit of trouble.

Really the reason not to start Charizard is because Squirtle does so much better. Charizard can definitely compete with ROB but the matchup is probably around even. Squirtle on the other hand definitely has an advantage. So really I'm not seeing any compelling reason to start Zard over Squirtle unless its simply a personal preference thing.
 

TheMike

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Charizard definitely doesn't do bad against ROB. Charizard's speed helps close in on Rob fast so if you're good at PSing his camping game becomes much less of a threat. Not that he still can't camp decently but its not like he can completely camp Charizard for a whole match. And if Charizard gets in he can reverse the advantage in short time.
ROB is also good in close range(not the same way when campering, but he's). And obviously, if ROB sees that Zard is PSing, he'll try to mix up with grabs or something else.
 

Bomber7

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From what I think is being said is that it's so neutral that it isn't really worth it to start Charizard?
 

Technologikall

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Personally I would pick Squirtle for his juggling game and because Zard gets outcamped too badly. Though Zard is no Ganon he does kinda have a camp weakness.
 

TheMike

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From what I think is being said is that it's so neutral that it isn't really worth it to start Charizard?
Almost that. As Tien said, starting with Squirtle is way better because he has a better MU against ROB. So, if you want a guaranteed advantage, choose Squirtle.
 

Bomber7

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Character Discussion: SAMUS

Going up against Samus, the chart suggest's Squirtle and Charizard.

Squirtle is always a good option because he small and fast. Charizard is questionable because he gets ***** by zairs and he is very outranged, though Samus is pretty light and will get owned by Zard if he gets in range.
 

Asa

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Magik's videos are pretty good evidence to start as squirtle. If you start as charizard, he'll get wrecked via zairs and samus' other spacing tools, and then there's a good chance that you'll be a stock down with squirtle. Then it'll be a long road to get squirtle back for the 3rd stock to get a win
 

Zigsta

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I definitely wouldn't start Charizard. Samus isn't a death matchup by any means; Charizard just has a hella tough time fighting her. For that reason alone, I wouldn't start Ivysaur here, since starting Squirtle keeps Charizard farthest away in your rotation.

I don't have as much Samus experience, though, as Magik and Miles do. You guys care to elaborate a wee bit?
 

Bomber7

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I definitely wouldn't start Charizard. Samus isn't a death matchup by any means; Charizard just has a hella tough time fighting her. For that reason alone, I wouldn't start Ivysaur here, since starting Squirtle keeps Charizard farthest away in your rotation.

I don't have as much Samus experience, though, as Magik and Miles do. You guys care to elaborate a wee bit?
First hand experience with Xyro. Want a rematch with that *******. Knocked me out of the Dibbz tourny last year during Mardi Gras. :mad:
 

Magik0722

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well doing the first stock half ivy and then half zard, it will allow squitle to come out at possibily on a mid - high percentage on samus so fatige wont hurt as much

also ivy does good againt samus
 

Tien2500

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Samus is light? I think she's just a bit lighter than Zard. Floaty but not light.

Squirtle should start without question. Squirtle has absolutely no trouble with her projectiles and her OOS/close game is too poor to deal with him. Plus she's floaty enough that she gets juggled pretty well and despite his weight she still has trouble KOing him. (One of her two main KOing moves is not very effective and bair may be hard to land since Squirtle is so much better than her in the air.)

Ivy is meh. I think Bair goes through missiles but Zair is still a pain. Dtilt KOs a little bit early. I have a lot of trouble with Ivy in this matchup but that may be cause my Ivy is not so good.

Charizard's running speed helps because Samus' projectiles (aside from Zair) aren't that fast. Plus when Zard gets inside he does much better than Ivy. But Zard is such a giant target that a good Samus can make it really really ****ing hard to get inside. Its also quite possible that you're fatigued by the time you're going for the KO. But even if you are fatigued you'll still KO way easier than Samus. Its pretty bad.

The best strategy if you can is to start with Squirtle, get the KO, switch to Ivy, switch to Zard as soon as you can (maybe even taking a hit in th process) and then just make it as tough as possible for her to KO you and punish her when she has to get inside.

Long story short. Start Squirtle.
 

dre_89_

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Magik said before that instead of having MU dicussions he'd just post vids to stop all the incorrect info that get's posted, are you gonna do that with this as well? Because it's likely we'll get/ already have got incorrect info here as well.
 

Bomber7

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Magik said before that instead of having MU dicussions he'd just post vids to stop all the incorrect info that get's posted, are you gonna do that with this as well? Because it's likely we'll get/ already have got incorrect info here as well.
From the beginning this hasn't been a match-up discussion. This is Choosing Your Starter. The name says it all. This is to find out which pokemon(s) are best to start with based on strategy or simplicity as well as maybe some other reasons too. The pokemon chosen necessarily won't be out for the whole stock, they will be out for as long as you need them to be to best fit a recommended strategy or your strategy if you have one. All and all results will vary but this is what is recommended.
 

Asa

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The matchup vids would probably include starting strategies because it's important to the overall matchup
 

Bomber7

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The matchup vids would probably include starting strategies because it's important to the overall matchup
Like toby said; these discussions are simpler than having all out match-up discussions. Plus these discussions are the closest thing we are going to get to them, but either way you think about it, all we really need is to "know who to start with" once we got that, we can work our way up from there because we got alot of adversity to work with among the 3 pokemon, as long as you can think on your feet things won't be bad in a match so match-up discussions are almost irrelevant.
 

MaTA

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I think I could do fairly well starting out with charizard. He's a lot quicker then some people know and is surprised seeing how fast he is. It would be a lot of dodging to get to her but he can pretty much sprint and dodge or shield instantly. Squirtle would do well also.
 

Bomber7

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I think I could do fairly well starting out with charizard. He's a lot quicker then some people know and is surprised seeing how fast he is. It would be a lot of dodging to get to her but he can pretty much sprint and dodge or shield instantly. Squirtle would do well also.
Well even if you are fast, Samus can spit out projectiles like it's noting and zair to follow up and you can't dodge everything. If you have watched Magik's vids against Xyro, you will see that it is no easy task dodging all that stuff plus Zair is a pain in the butt when you get hit by it.

Also if Samus doesn't like to much of a vertical game, why not have Ivysaur out?
 

Bestiarius

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Ivysaur just seems too risky against Samus for me. Samus has just such an amazing gimp game. i think Charizard can hold his own, if he can get in close, and that's a big if with Samus' amazing spazing. I think Squirtle is best, and Ivysaur might be able to stall/knock her back enough to get to Charizard, but a Charizard-Squirtle battery is probably best, even though I think Squirtle does the best.
 

Bomber7

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Ivysaur just seems too risky against Samus for me. Samus has just such an amazing gimp game. i think Charizard can hold his own, if he can get in close, and that's a big if with Samus' amazing spazing. I think Squirtle is best, and Ivysaur might be able to stall/knock her back enough to get to Charizard, but a Charizard-Squirtle battery is probably best, even though I think Squirtle does the best.
I'm just asking about Ivy because I'm curious. I've never had a good Ivy for starting but a great Ivy for a battery with Squirtle. From watching Magik's matches against Xyro, it just bothers me because it was basically me watching myself (almost) play Xyro. Let me tell you, Xyro knows what he is doing. If you also payed attention to Zair, it has good knock back and a good Zair chain especially going off stage is a bad thing for Zard.
 

Xyro77

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imo, ivysaur is the easiest to fight of the 3. imo, use ivy to throw samus away and the switch asap.

ivy has nothin
 

Bomber7

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imo, ivysaur is the easiest to fight of the 3. imo, use ivy to throw samus away and the switch asap.

ivy has nothin
Probably would be wise to just start as Squirtle and then make a 3 way battery. Plus in the best case scenario, you can stock tank with Charz on your first stock and then send out a fresh squirtle. Plus imo is the best strategy any Trainer can go with, when I first started with PT did this for a while and it worked but then I got too good with Squirtle and it messed me up but now that I'm pretty much balanced out with the other two I'm going to work out that three way battery again.

Xyro, want to have another match again next time you come to LA. I always enjoy playing players better than me.
 

Technologikall

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Personally I think that Zard is a bad lead against Sammiesamsam. He's big, and it's hard to avoid projectiles with him. And in my experience Zair people are a pain in Zards butt.

I'm not that experienced in this matchup though, but I think it's best to either start as Ivy or Squirtle here, and just keep Zard for when you have high damage.
 

Xyro77

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ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!


Now i realize what this thread is about. IMO, squirtle should lead at all times. his fair and bair beats[out prioritize] ALL my moves except charge shot and zair. hes fast and can grab release to jab which can trip me[hobo 11 was it, magik¿]

ivysaur=free stock for samus. not only do we cause double knockback[early KOs] with fair and usmash and dtilt[our ko move] but zair crushes EVERYTHING AND EVERY TRICK ivy has[no offense].

Charizard. though hes an easy missle/zair target, he can ko and live longer than samus. plus he has super armor on some things[see magik vs me]. imo, once squirt dies...,,....,,,,,.....get to zard asap.
 

Bomber7

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Well I'm convinced, Ivy is not a good option.

Can charizard be a good choice to start because he can live longer than Samus? (aimed at Xyro and everyone else who read this). I'm still really iffy because you screw stuff over with your accurate Zairs, I remember every time I made a move as squirtle, I'd get hit in the face with your zair. That was not fun. Plus with Charizard, he is very susceptible to a Zair and/or a spike. Depending on how well you were, you could easily get charizard off stage with projectiles and zairs and other attacks and then go in for the kill.
 

Xyro77

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again, im not a pkmn t expert so u may wanna confirm all of this with many other pkmn t players.

if it comes down to hit for hit to see who gets the KO first, zard wins easy.

BUT¡¡¡¡¡!!!!!!!¡¡¡¡¡!!!!¡¡¡

Samus can build damage much better than zard.


also, some one google the brawl character weight list. i would but im on wii net.

EDIT: it seems zard is just a tad bit lighter than samus. i looked it up
 

Bomber7

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All I'm really looking for is really if Charizard can be efficient in the beginning of the match, not necessarily the whole stock. It seems though however that if Samus can keep him spaced pretty well and he isn't capable of putting up a good counter attack by the time he does get to her then I would say it's pointless to start as him.

any thoughts guys?
 

Steeler

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it takes samus like 10 hits to match one sweetspot rock smash LOL

not that zard will rock smash samus much but it's an example of how charizard can outpace samus' damage output
 

Xyro77

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it takes samus like 10 hits to match one sweetspot rock smash LOL

not that zard will rock smash samus much but it's an example of how charizard can outpace samus' damage output

at the same time, landing a rock smash proves the samus was ******** and didnt spam/space like we should
 

Katakiri

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I know this match-up pretty well from playing GenoSamus every week. So expect a lot of input.


I usually start with Ivysaur against a Samus.


Her B-Air breaks through all her Missiles, Uncharged Shot, and Half-charged Shot. So it's not hard to approach her at all.

Spacing Razor Leaf usually stops any Z-Air shenanigans.

Even though Samus can spike Ivysaur, keep in mind that Ivysaur's Up-B is a Meteor Cancel that Auto-grabs the ledge which nullifies that advantage and can put Samus in a bad position. (You should be able to grab the ledge even before her D-Air animation is over.)

The only things that you should have any trouble with is Samus' Charged Shot, Z-Air, & D-Tilt (The Fire Knockback gives Samus a viable kill move against Ivysaur past 110%).

Ivysaur out-ranges all of Samus' normal ground and aerial attacks so feel free to get physical with her if missiles are giving you any trouble.

You should switch to Charizard pass 100% or to get the kill since Samus has a very hard time killing him.
_______________

Squirtle is my personal second choice against Samus.

He can easily weave in and out through Samus' projectiles. But Charged Shot is, once again, something to look out for due to it's speed & power.

Samus can keep Squirtle at bay for a time using Z-Air but other than that, her aerials are laughable compared to Squirtle's.

Her ground game is surprisingly solid when she's not out-ranged, and unfortunately she out-ranges Squirtle when she's grounded. Her attack speed on the ground is no joke either. You could easily be eating an F-Smash if you don't space yourself properly.

A little side note to remember is that Water Gun will gimp her pretty easily if she can't quite reach the ledge initially out of her Up-B.

When it comes to killing Samus your best bet would be either to gimp her (remember she can spike you easily offstage) or switch to Ivysaur or even Charizard. (D-Throw with Squirtle then an F-Air or B-Throw with Ivysaur will let you freely switch as long as she doesn't have a Charged Shot.)

Samus is heavier than she looks and won't be killed by a fatigued Squirtle too soon. It's possible to kill Samus with Ivysaur but not advised at high percentages. Samus' ground attacks are very quick and can easily punish Ivysaur's ending lag on her kill moves if dodged.
_______________

Charizard is the worst starter in this match-up IMO. He's not bad, but the other 2 are going to have a much easier time than him.


Most of what has been said about Ivysaur applies to Charizard. His F-Air stops Missiles and whatnot. He out-ranges her normal attacks. Not to forget there's practically no comparison in terms of damage output between the two.

Z-Air is where the first problem lies. Charizard has no simple answer to Z-Air. Spot Dodging it and chasing Samus is usually his only option.

Charizard also shares Squirtle's weakness to Samus' D-Air spike but because Charizard doesn't have Squirtle's air speed to help him or Ivysaur's meteor cancel, he'll find himself at a huge disadvantage offstage.

But aside from that, Samus has a ridiculous time killing Charizard while Charizard can kill Samus fairly easily if he can get close. (Remember, she is a floaty character so Up-Smash and Rock Smash will be pretty reliable for kills)
_______________

A quick summary since I don't expect everyone to read all that:

Ivysaur is the best starter IMO since has an answer to nearly everything Samus can do.

Squirtle would be the next best choice because he can slip through Samus' defensive game with ease, but can't reliably kill her.

Charizard get the short end of the stick in this match-up. He's not bad at all, but he doesn't have anything going for him against Samus besides his weight and power until she's within kill range.
 
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