Matchup Thread Export: Metaknight

o-Serin-o · Jul 17, 2009

METAKNIGHT

DIFFICULTY: HARD - 40:60
CHAINGRAB: NO

This matchup is a rough one, but probably the best to know since you’ll most likely be seeing Metaknight more than any of your other counters. There’s not much to say about MK that isn’t really common knowledge...he’s fast, he combos well, he gimps very well, and his Tornado is widely regarded as the gayest move in the game. He can rack up damage on you like nobody’s business, he can’t be chaingrabbed (without tech chasing), and he can land every single hit of the tornado on you if you don’t break out of it or DI (many Metaknights like to start the match this way). Fortunately, it’s not completely hopeless.

Dedede has several moves that can break out of the tornado (see anti-tornado attack list): Dtilt, Dsmash, Dair, Bair, and Inhale (Gordos can also break out of it, but good luck pulling one). Of these, your best option is probably ffBair, with Dair and Dtilt coming in close behind. Dsmash should be used if the MK attempts a tornado at higher percentages since it will probably kill him or at least set him up for a kill. If you’re feeling lucky you can take M2K’s old advice of DIing up and mashing airdodge, but you’ll probably take more damage from trying to do that than from just Bair or Dairing. Or, if the MK doesn’t start the tornado right next to you, you can just shield the whole thing, but most Metaknights are used to shield poking so don’t be surprised if it doesn’t bother them much.

Due to Metaknight’s light weight (and also his great horizontal recovery), it’s best to try to kill him off the top, which is great news since Dedede has perhaps the second best Utilt in the game (behind Snake) and his Usmash is very solid as well, killing almost as early as Utilt but having more range and being able to do it out of a dash. Dsmash sends them up as well, which makes it good for tech chasing, killing, or setting up for a kill, as mentioned above. Another good option for killing is the Dededecide.

“What? Gates, you can’t be serious, Dededecide will rarely work and there’s no effing way I’m going to incorporate it into my gameplan,” you’re saying to yourself right now. But it does work quite well. If you’re off the stage and MK is trying to edgeguard or Wall of Pain you, a Dededecide can be the right move if you’re tied or a stock ahead. If they’re edgeguarding, even threatening an inhale by the ledge can make them back up and give you some space to recover.

Spacing is extremely important in this matchup, so be sure to use that Ftilt. Don’t abuse it though because it’s kind of laggy and if you overuse it MK can just approach you from different angles. In addition to the Dededecides mentioned before, Inhale can also be great for messing with MK’s approaches by pausing them for a sec. You can easily force him to approach through Waddle Dee toss, but you might not even need to since most MKs love approaching anyway. And most importantly in this matchup, STAY ON THE GROUND. As much priority as Bair has, MK’s aerials are way better than yours and Shuttle Loop can be very dangerous.

Mikey7 said:
I have alot of experience with this match up (there are alot of meta knights where I play).
[…]
In this match up, what I find my self doing is alot of ftilt when when I feel like MK is going to dash grab. If MK comes in for a shuffled fair, if the spacing is off I just shield grab into back throw, if the spacing is perfect then I drop shield and dash grab into back throw. Fair is not a good move for Dedede to use in this matchup so i limit its usage. D smash goes through tornado every time, and randomly if I come down with suck on top of tornado, it works.

I love it when MK tornadoes me. Simple tactic people, have your shield full, block the whole thing, then punish...I will never understand why so many people QQ about it. If you feel your shield cant hold out, spot dodge the last bit of nado, I normally do this every time so I have an easier time punishing. If for some reason you cant shield, DI up and smash airdodge you should get out of it then fly over it...just be smart. For the glide attack...just shield grab into back throw.

Clearly, on the stage, Dedede goes even with MK. The kill move and recovery are the problems. The kill move should be (in my opinion) up tilt or d smash. The best way to get either of these moves off is if MK does a SH nair then its a simple kill, otherwise wait for an opening and punish with either move, be sure you know the proper spacing for each of these moves. And just to restate, Dsmash goes throw tornado.

Generally, do not be afraid to use f tilt, d tilt, bair, and suck. Suck up is a great mix up if the MK gets wise to the grab/bair game, or is trying to keep pressure on you, or you feel overwhelmed with momentum.

Recovering against MK can be tricky. NEVER up b above MK, you will get shuttle looped. If you have enough jumps, recover like Snake (jump to the top of the screen and use b-reversals/airdodge to get on the ground), or if you must use up B, use it quickly, and intelligently, but generally up B gets punished.

MK has alot vs Dedede. Nair -> ftilt combos easily and does about 30%. Down air above Dedede is hard to punish especially if they follow it with tornado (I would say try to tilt your shield up or try a retreating back air or just run away if MK is above you).

Spacing is the absolute deciding factor in this match. Good MK's will use alot of attacks that are outside of Dedede's grab range, so make sure to keep mixing up between suck, grab, bair, ftilt, etc. Retreating is absolutely necessary to basically regenerate your shield, because it is clearly a useful tool in this match. Retreating can temporarily trap (a stupid MK) into chasing. Mostly its used to establish control of the pace of the match.

Throwing waddles, to me, should only be intended to establish spacing and put MK at your pace. What I mean is slow him down with waddles, dont expect a hit, use them to space yourself and control the stage (think street fighter).
[…]
Just play smart, there is little room for error, especially when trying to recover.

Buuman said:
Meta Knight vs. D3 has to be one of the most awkward matches for D3...because you HAVE TO PLAY DIFFERENT against GOOD MKs....I don't care who you are. DO NOT APPROACH EVER. I'm working on this matchup, and anti MK strategies. Refer to my thread tonight, I am probably going to add some.

But one effectice strategy I've noticed to work wonders, is retreating pivot grabs, retreating side Bs, and spacing that F tilt flawlessly.

Think of it this way...Most Metaknight don't want to dair D3 when he's on the ground too often, because of his up tilt, so expect this situation:

Metaknight is on the ground about 10 ft away from dedede, who is also on the ground...out of f tilt range. In this case..Most D3s would expect MK to approach if nothing is happening. THINK ABOUT HIS OPTIONS...

IF HE TORNADOES FROM THIS DISTANCE...YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO SPACE/TIME D3S UP TILT

Some Mks...from my experience will do a dash grab...

and more uniquely some MKs will run into a shield/spotdodge

Now what I've been doing lately seems to work...if you run away..and can anticipate when MK begins his dash to you...RUN AND PIVOT GRAB!!!

THINK ABOUT IT - D3s pivot grab is insanely fast, longer then his other grabs, and lets him retreat AND turn around

Lately most of my opponents run right into my hands ---> and I get the Back throw off

More on this later

Atomsk (on his AiB Blog)]Okay first off said:
if ur having trouble with approaches, IF YOU HAVE THE LEAD

the mk can only do one of 3 or 4 things.

1. Run==>shield grab, hoping to block ur ftilt.

SOLUTION:
Instead of ftilt, read his approach, and simply stay on ur side, then when u think he's gona running shield, u do a dash grab (no shield) and meet him half way. That way your grabbing his approaching shield.

2. Jump in space dairs/fairs

SOLUTION:
for spacy mk's mixup between dash shielding==>grab (if they do recieding fairs), sh bairs or utilts out of shield for spacy dairs, be very patient with this...

like shield 2, even 3 dairs before making a move, if they're too high, try to time a full hop uair or fair after abotu the third or 4th dair, if they land before then, grab/dsmash the landing depending on spacing, only other option is nado which if ur shield is low either roll away or try to utilt it. if ur shield is fine (they did nado before doing 3-4 dairs on ur shield) then just hold shield, try to predict if he's gona stay inside u, OR retreat. if he retreats u can actually time a roll in that direction to move with him, and finish ur roll where he lands, this seems to be the only consistant way to punish retreating nado, if they stayed in ur shield at all, and it avoids the mindgame of -retreat, just kidding hit u while u run-

3. Walk slowly up and space tilts

SOLUTION:

DSMASH-sounds weird but it destroys mk's grounded spacing game once he's passed ur ftilt range. just hold shield accordingly, when he fuks up, give him a swing.
itss sooooo good and soooo big. and hurts, and puts them above u. i <3 dsmash..

4. Dash, jump, nado.

SOLUTION-This one you gota watch out for, as it can shut out like ur other two solutions if u pick wrong. (IE he has a rock that beats ur scissor and lizard, BUT you have this paper) this one will seem the most blatent if u pay attention enough, and aggressive, they will run full speed and jump AT you, not near you. thats ur que to either throw out utilt, try to grab it, OR the safest thing, shield. -----the issue is when they read ur shield, and instead of jump nadoing, they just dash grab ur shield, so watch out for that.

instead of linking specific vids, since i do all these strats often,
i'll link u here instead.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241986

watch the latest vids vs mk to see these strats in action.

I only want to remind everyone, and this is something that should be on the TOP of the first post, Matchups=/=a scientific method to consistantly win. All matchups are is knowing how to find bad habits, and knowing what your characters best punishments are, how to use them, and how to avoid being punished. If i tell you to wait for a mk's 3rd Dair, that's me saying be patient, look at him, and find out what his habits are first before trying to blatently attack him. See if he likes to commit to dairing, or if he's gona throw in a nado. Im telling you what you can do for both options, and how to handle it, it's up to you (the players) to MIX IN the right options given certain circumstances. I cannot tell you do this, this and this, and you WILL beat this character. I can only give you the tools to to use, its up to you to find out how to best use those tools.

I hope my point gets accrossed. While I'm sure my words on MK have helped, they are not the end all be all, as you can see it takes a good deal of prediction, but the rewards are great. Almost makes the matchup seem even.

Seibrik said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuMtYUHnP38

at 1:29 is one example of dsmash being > than mk spacing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGBdTSIaco
at 3:16 u can see an example of using the roll to punish retreating tornado.

also at 4:02 i just wana point out when u have a lead like this, or even just 20%, and u knock mk off the level, u should NOT turn the aggresive on, stay away from his ledge, make him come to you at all times, so its a mission+at kill% he'll be really weary not to tornado approach in fear of dying, so that already makes his mixup game easier to read.

i'll update THIS post with more as i find

_clinton said:
MK is nothing more than a low pawn to the great D3 in his court...

Good Stages:
Final Destination, Yoshi’s Island (Brawl), Smashville, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1

Generally you want large stages where you can distance yourself from MK. Stages with low ceilings are good too since you’ll be KOing him off the top a majority of the time.

Bad Stages:
Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Luigi’s Mansion, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise

Smaller stages that abuse platforms, moving stages…generally anywhere Dedede doesn’t have a lot of room to move around in and stages that really make his speed a disadvantage. Luigi’s Mansion may seem like a reasonable idea due to its size, but in reality the areas on the first floor where you can’t jump up to the second essentially form boxes where MK can trap you and use the Tornado on you multiple times.

Gates · Jul 19, 2009

See above...

o-Serin-o · Jul 19, 2009

The matchup is 55:45 now Gates

Gates · Jul 19, 2009

Yeah, I'm not really sure about that anymore. Against rushdown MKs it's definitely close to 50:50 but for defensive and patient MKs who play smart it's still a solid disadvantage.

o-Serin-o · Jul 19, 2009

True, but we don't really have to approach them. Camp with Waddle Dees and poke with ftilt. If they nado, dtilt them out of it.

Craeter · Jul 19, 2009

I think it's closer to 100:0 when lains playing. :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7-_kLw3r5k

o-Serin-o · Jul 19, 2009

That just textbook ****.

Fogo · Jul 19, 2009

That's also really old lol

People play a lot differently now.

Sensei Seibrik · Jul 19, 2009

Something ive come to notice this weekend.

YS is HORRIBLE for ddd vs MK.

I was playing Co18 and i kept taking him there cause i realized, i get him to the top bubble, or when hes recovering its just like FD. all i do is hit him up then wait under the platform

if he lands, holds shield, and tries to fall through and attack me, i utilt to beat all those optiuons and send him back up, otherwise he has to come around the platform to safely land, and im always waiting under the platform near the side to wait for his fall, grab him and repeat the process. then his safest option becomes going near the ledge, which is never a good place to be vs mk.

New personal opinion of mine, when playing vs mk, either ban BF or YS.

I'll have links to vids of the matches up shortly.

Gates · Jul 19, 2009

It's Yoshi's Island, not Story. Thanks fot the advice though. Banning Yoshi's would definitely be a good idea provided the tourney you're at doesn't have gay stages like Norfair or, god forbid, Luigi's Mansion.

Personally, I've never liked playing Dedede on Yoshi's Island. I just can't think of any reason to go there.

o-Serin-o · Jul 19, 2009

Gates said:
Personally, I've never liked playing Dedede on Yoshi's Island. I just can't think of any reason to go there.

Because when we dash attack at the edge, the hitbox goes downward. =3

Commander_Beef · Jul 20, 2009

o-Serin-o said:
The matchup is 55:45 now Gates

Wow seriously? Who are you Serin? Stay out of China lol.
This matchup discussion is pretty much *****. The last I can conclude of this is, Just stay on the ground as much as possible.

o-Serin-o · Jul 20, 2009

Commander_Beef said:
Wow seriously? Who are you Serin? Stay out of China lol.
This matchup discussion is pretty much *****. The last I can conclude of this is, Just stay on the ground as much as possible.

*Vader voice* I... am your faathaa!

Beef: NO, THATS NOT TRUE! THATS IMPOSSIBALL!!!!!!

Rofl but seriously, I'm Rai, I just made another account.

Dark 3nergy · Jul 21, 2009

Gates said:
It's Yoshi's Island, not Story. Thanks fot the advice though. Banning Yoshi's would definitely be a good idea provided the tourney you're at doesn't have gay stages like Norfair or, god forbid, Luigi's Mansion.

Personally, I've never liked playing Dedede on Yoshi's Island. I just can't think of any reason to go there.

In some regions Yoshi's Island is considered a counter pick iirc

from what i heard, it was due to the Shy Guy's

Gates · Jul 21, 2009

D.E. said:
In some regions Yoshi's Island is considered a counter pick iirc

from what i heard, it was due to the Shy Guy's

wat

That doesn't make any **** sense. I could understand it being moved to Starter/Counter, but not because of the Shy Guys which don't actually do anything.

Dark 3nergy · Jul 21, 2009

Thats what a buddy of mine told me anyway -- its still something anyone should look up for their respective region

It still doesnt change the fact that I still dislike playing there as DDD. I hate those ghosts so much

CRASHiC · Jul 22, 2009

I love playing there, and abuse the **** out of the shy guys.
Make an enemey hit them, hit the enemy while they are in the hitstun animation that is caused by hitting an object.
Use them to block falco's lazers. use the occasional platforms to inhale people (not swalocide) and spit them out, generally to far to recover, as well as other gimping tricks you can pull using them.
Though, don't take Metaknight here. Take Falco if you can't take him to Lylat Cruise or that other samus place with the weird name, FO.

Sensei Seibrik · Jul 22, 2009

Just one example is this match for what MK can do on Yoshi's as far as stage control. Very easy, very simple, very scary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouhuT6syoek&feature=channel_page

Sensei Seibrik · Jul 22, 2009

Sorry for the double post but this one is against Co18 and my first kill is a specific example of stage control and limiting options.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vd1gpUBP6s&feature=channel_page

Rewatching this match i realize that the platform positioning also allows mk do abuse Upb more as if he misses hes almost completely unpunishable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP-rIAym868&feature=channel_page

CO18 · Jul 22, 2009

Yeah, yoshis is pretty annoying vs MK.

Tekk · Jul 24, 2009

Mh I've just figured out something to do to counter a MK passing through your Ftilt to grab you:

You tried to Ftilt a MK but he dodged/shielded, now he's dashing towards you to grab you, How do you don't get grabbed ?I think the best solution is to simply JAB cancel. the jab fills the exact space the Ftilt doesn't fill and Mk's usually won't expect it.

It's kinda situationnal and can seem pointless, but it worked each time I've used it on MK's, and it's also a good thing to know since we can get combo'ed hard with one MK's grab.

Hope I helped.

Jupz · Jul 24, 2009

Yeah, I NEVER use Jab Cancel, maybe I should actually use it lol.

CRASHiC · Jul 24, 2009

We need to do intense testing of jab canceling, and jab set ups.
I'm fairly certain jab cancel to grab is guaranteed.

Jupz · Jul 24, 2009

Woah, guarenteed?

I thought it was way to slow. Do you mean cancelling after the first or second jab?

CRASHiC · Jul 24, 2009

Second. You are canceling the 2nd grab with the shield, and then immediately shield grabbing.

o-Serin-o · Jul 24, 2009

I doubt that would really work on a smart opponent. They can easily shield the incoming second jab before it hits.

Jupz · Jul 24, 2009

Ahh, I usually use the holding down method to cancel Jabs with other characters. Is the shield method faster?

CRASHiC · Jul 24, 2009

Is our second jab not guaranteed after our first? It not, that's gay.

Commander_Beef · Jul 25, 2009

That announcer is hilarious man... "ladies and gentleman" like ten times .
Favorited.

And no it's not Crashic, sadly. But it's really easy to mindgame them into the second jab, once the first one hits, second comes out fast enough for a mindgame.
Jab cancel to grab is NOT guarenteed, already tested. Try again if you want.

CO18 · Jul 25, 2009

CRASHiC said:
Is our second jab not guaranteed after our first? It not, that's gay.

lol Mk can freakin downsmash before our 2nd jab. its soo sloww.

Tekk · Jul 25, 2009

CO18 said:
lol Mk can freakin downsmash before our 2nd jab. its soo sloww.

LOL I can't believe it, stoopid MK >_>

o-Serin-o · Oct 5, 2009

Bumped for talk abouts

TlocCPU · Oct 5, 2009

I have come in to the dedede boards unannounced and stated that the metaknight matchup is much harder than what you guys think. It is only fair that I provide my data to support my conclusion. Let's start with what we know.

The tornado:
Most dedede players struggle with the tornado and it is seemingly metaknight's safest way to approach dedede. Most metaknights, even ksizzle, solely use this approach to fight dedede. This is the same approach the top dedede players like Atomsk and Co18 have showed us how to thwart with a simple bair, pivot grab, or uptilt. However every MK continues to play the matchup this way because most MKs can't find another way to get to dedede.

Metaknight's tilts:
Metaknight has some really dumb tilts, but luckily dedede's grab range and ftilt are much superior. The best MK can do is space his tilts outside of dedede's shield so he can't grab, but you can wait for the tilt to end and ftilt, making this another bad way to approach.

Metaknight's dash to shield grab:
Knowing that you're going to attack with ftilt, metaknight players will run up and powershield it and grab you. As Seibrik pointed out in his post, we can grab him before he grabs us, making this approach bad.

Dair camping:
Pretty self explanatory, usually ends with a tornado. All you need is pure patience to beat this strategy.

Because most metaknights pick 1 or 2 of these strategies at a time, it makes the matchup very managable because you already know what's coming and how to beat it. 55:45 right? Well what happens when a dedede fights Havok. Let's take Havok vs Atomsk at genesis for example.

Havok's approach to this matchup:
Havok never ever EVER approaches with the tornado. He knows very well Atomsk is waiting for it and can react to it instantly. Havok also never runs up to try to shield grab dedede's ftilt because of our ridiculous grab range. He starts with the basic dair camping approach. It's the safest approach because we have to wait, we can't just punish immediately. But unlike most metaknight players, havok chooses not to retreat. After any of his jumps at random, could be the 2nd or 4th or 3rd or 5th, you don't know, havok is going to fastfall and use one of the other 3 methods immediately in close quarters to you. Your shield is worn because of fighting off the dairs so now you can't shield metaknight's downtilt, and you can't stand up to the whole tornado. The best thing to expect is the tornado, which is what atomsk did, but havok would just walk up and dtilt his shield and then grab right out of it, or even just do metaknight's ultra fast dash grab. You have NO idea which one is coming and metaknight is very close to you when he chooses one. You have a 1 in 3 chance of defending yourself, and if you guess wrong, you are now in the air or offstage.

Where we lose this matchup the worst:
I've only fought a select few metaknights with perfect offstage game. Those metaknights are mew2king, dojo, tyrant, fiction, DSF, and Havok. If any one of these people get your dedede off stage at any %, you have very little chance of getting back alive. This is the point where metaknight is going to use his high priority aerials to waste your jumps. You have 3 choices: Space your fair, space your uair, or up B immediately. These are for offstage, i'll talk about above MK and on stage in a second. Back on point, any of the players I just named have perfect tech skill reaction to your moves. If you fair they will come in and fair you back or dair you right inbetween your moves frame perfectly. If you uair they will wait for it to end and fastfall nair before you can do another move. If you up B they know how to PERFECTLY space the shuttle loop to hit you without spiking themselves.
If you run out of jumps, you have lost a stock. Your best bet is to try to do a quick ledge cancel and sometimes you get lucky, but if you're recovering from below metaknight will grab your up B and jab release you over and over until you try to space it, once you do space it, you get downsmashed or shuttle looped depending on how high up you are, you are dead. If you up B higher up they will continue to shuttle loop it until you're far enough out to the point where they can edgehog you, you're dead.
Above them on stage is just as bad. If you're far up they don't just shuttle loop immediately. They wait for you to dair or airdodge, if you do, you get shuttle looped off immediately and you end up in the situation I just described. The best thing to do is nothing and try to use your jumps wisely and fastfall swallow or something before you hit the ground. Whether you get shuttle looped or not is PURE luck.

Summary:
Simply put, if you fail to hold your ground and thwart a good metaknight's approach, you have a high chance of taking 50ish damage or even getting edgeguarded to your death. If you make it back you can try again but you've taken around 50 and you're even closer to death. Metaknight completely decimates dedede on the top level of gameplay, it is VERY difficult to keep up in damage and kills and it involves a lot of luck.

Jupz · Oct 5, 2009

Nice summary CPU

And yes I agree about the offstage bit, although I obviously haven't been playing top MK's over here in Australia I always get ***** offstage even at our level of play.

Sensei Seibrik · Oct 5, 2009

I'll see what I can do for you guys at pound 4, it's where im gona do the majority of my matchup theory testing.

CRASHiC · Oct 6, 2009

Do we have any other options of dealing with down air other than shielding them?

9Kplus1 · Oct 6, 2009

I tried OoS Nair once against Dair and it looked sweet.

Though, I'm pretty sure that inhale beats Dair unless it's spaced.

Sensei Seibrik · Oct 6, 2009

something you CAN do, which hasn't been brought up,

is sheild a dair, or between dairs, come out of shield, turn, shield

then after another dair, if they do it, bair OOS, if they nado, just shield.

just try to position urself with them behind u if u can

Fogo · Oct 6, 2009

I played Doj a bit this weekend, and i don't think it's as bad as you say. Everything you said is all about options, for each situation there's a way out, nothing is infinite or unpunishable if done right. (For the most part)

I don't think those options would make the matchup worse because they've been there for a long time and it's all player dependant. For example, if the MK player chose the wrong 1 of his 3 options in any given situations everytime he loses.

Just an extreme ex. I don't think it'd ever really happen like that lol

I do see what you're saying though.

TlocCPU · Oct 6, 2009

Well if I can't make it to pound 4 you guys should try to get some friendlies with top MKs and see if you can figure anything out. I'll ask Havok to go MK instead of Marth when I play friendlies with him so I can get better at it.

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