Wario's Week 16 Matchup REDISCUSSION: MetaKnight

Padô · Oct 20, 2009

That's it!

Rediscussion is finally here and the first one to rediscuss is...

META KNIGHT!

I really expect a HUGE loads of discussion here since the older numbers were VERY wrong according with our members.

PLEASE POST NUMBERS.

I'll make my post later on when I have time.

Good Discussion!

toobusytocare · Oct 21, 2009

55:45-60:40

MK has the tools to shut down wario, but its all about how he uses them

wario's worst matchup IMO

Padô · Oct 22, 2009

60:40

Lots of arguments on the topic.

godslafco · Oct 23, 2009

60:40

The pressure that MK can give to Wario is only beaten out by the ability to KEEP pressure on Wario. Keeping half the field inaccessible to Wario can limit his options and even though Wario needs just a little space to keep in 'control'. I don't see a great way to get away from MK's moveset, most of his moves come out incredibly fast and stop just as fast, it's a lot harder to find the places to punish and those places come few and far between.

Wario is forced to either be entirely defensive or more risky than is comfortable.

Padô · Oct 25, 2009

godslafco said:
60:40

The pressure that MK can give to Wario is only beaten out by the ability to KEEP pressure on Wario. Keeping half the field inaccessible to Wario can limit his options and even though Wario needs just a little space to keep in 'control'. I don't see a great way to get away from MK's moveset, most of his moves come out incredibly fast and stop just as fast, it's a lot harder to find the places to punish and those places come few and far between.

Wario is forced to either be entirely defensive or more risky than is comfortable.

I don't think the pressure is the factor that makes MK wins the match TBH I think keeping the pressure is factor that make they lose.

orange/xd · Oct 25, 2009

55 : 45 - 60 : 40

PhantomX · Oct 25, 2009

Yeah, MK's that pressure (not including offstage) are the ones that are easy to ****. It's when they play super campy with fairs and upairs/dairs under platforms that his true advantages over Wario shine.

Dynomite · Oct 26, 2009

50-50

retreating fair mks might be hard to beat but once they start relying on it too much thats where u can starts to hurt them. as for platform pressure and air pressure, it cant be THAT hard to get away from mk.

PhantomX · Oct 26, 2009

It really isn't 50:50. It's pretty undoubtedly our hardest matchup.

Dynomite · Oct 26, 2009

PhantomX said:
It really isn't 50:50. It's pretty undoubtedly our hardest matchup.

either i havnt fought a really good mk or its a personal preference.. i personally think that it cant be that much harder than any other matchup. maybe 45:55 but thats as low as i think it would go.

toobusytocare · Oct 26, 2009

PhantomX said:
It really isn't 50:50. It's pretty undoubtedly our hardest matchup.

True that homegirl

Padô · Oct 26, 2009

PhantomX said:
It really isn't 50:50. It's pretty undoubtedly our hardest matchup.

It got a high probability of being our hardest matchup but I wouldn't agree only because of the farts. We just can fart on everything MK has, that's why I don't see this matchup so hard as do other boards see since we can KO him very easily and our campy game is really effective against MK (tbh only because almost all of the MK players got **** instead of brains and keep going for a relentless pressure on Wario.)
But as said before, if the MK plays defensively it's a PAIN in the ****ing *** to punish. And this match is entirely based on "time to punish, time to run" for both sides I belive.

dynomite said:
50-50

retreating fair mks might be hard to beat but once they start relying on it too much thats where u can starts to hurt them. as for platform pressure and air pressure, it cant be THAT hard to get away from mk.

Retreating fairs can be perfect shielded, that's true, but about the platform pressure I highly disagree. Sometimes I just ban BF againt MKs because of the plaform pressure, good MKs eat all your shield when you are above one than do anything he wants, more poke, UpB, nado, Nair and others. Do you got any tips for me?

DMG · Oct 26, 2009

I actually like taking MK's to BF as the small room doesn't let them get away with tornado much. That and you can weave around the platforms and annoy them lol.

MK is our hardest matchup. It wouldn't be so bad if we had some range of our own to fight with, but then Wario would be broken with more range.

Padô · Oct 26, 2009

DMG said:
I actually like taking MK's to BF as the small room doesn't let them get away with tornado much. That and you can weave around the platforms and annoy them lol.

MK is our hardest matchup. It wouldn't be so bad if we had some range of our own to fight with, but then Wario would be broken with more range.

If Wario had more range we wouldn't have bad match-ups. Seriously. We'd **** everything we saw on our sight.

toobusytocare · Oct 26, 2009

I take MK to SV or FD

the only character i really take to FD

the lack of platforms makes it easy to dair his tornado and stuff (at least for me)
plus its big and hard for him to kill there

and SV is just my favorite stage lol

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Oct 26, 2009

So what do we do to get around his camping? How does the match up play out if we camp ?

Padô · Oct 27, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
So what do we do to get around his camping? How does the match up play out if we camp ?

This match IMO is based on the fart, it's the most important thing here, the safest and easiest Wario option to kill MK. The easiest way to rack percentage is by punishing his UpB's and shieldgrabbing his Fairs and Ftilts, NEVER TRY TO SHIELDGRAB HIS FSMASH YOU RE GOING TO GET PWNED BY A DSMASH.

If you take the lead let him camp, and when your fart is almost 1:50 try to punish safely and then wait for an opening. FSmash is good here but hard to land AND he'll almost perfectshield all of'em unless you read him for realz or use it against a SH Nair or a Glide attack which are VERY nice options.

If you miss the fart don't worry, we can easily use the timer on our favor against MK, tbh I think Wario is the only one who can. Then If MK starts to be agressive just apply the rule DMG have put on MK Boards: "Playing agressive against Wario is recipe to fail, we have watched many MKs doing that and they got grabbed 60 times in a row and died."

toobusytocare · Oct 27, 2009

Padô said:
This match IMO is based on the fart, it's the most important thing here, the safest and easiest Wario option to kill MK. The easiest way to rack percentage is by punishing his UpB's and shieldgrabbing his Fairs and Ftilts, NEVER TRY TO SHIELDGRAB HIS FSMASH YOU RE GOING TO GET PWNED BY A DSMASH.

If you take the lead let him camp, and when your fart is almost 1:50 try to punish safely and then wait for an opening. FSmash is good here but hard to land AND he'll almost perfectshield all of'em unless you read him for realz or use it against a SH Nair or a Glide attack which are VERY nice options.

If you miss the fart don't worry, we can easily use the timer on our favor against MK, tbh I think Wario is the only one who can. Then If MK starts to be agressive just apply the rule DMG have put on MK Boards: "Playing agressive against Wario is recipe to fail, we have watched many MKs doing that and they got grabbed 60 times in a row and died."

uhhh.... its easy to kill MK with uair and ftilt lol

when he's on the ledge and getting up, try ftilting him

often it will hit them and they will get caught off guard and DI it horribly lol
this works vs a lot of characters

warios ftilt is incredible

Padô · Oct 27, 2009

toobusytocare said:
uhhh.... its easy to kill MK with uair and ftilt lol

when he's on the ledge and getting up, try ftilting him

often it will hit them and they will get caught off guard and DI it horribly lol
this works vs a lot of characters

warios ftilt is incredible

True on FTilt.

Uair is included on punishing B Moves ... Upb sometimes is really easy to clap.

toobusytocare · Oct 27, 2009

up b is easy to clap or dair

DMG · Oct 27, 2009

I think Ftilt kinda sucks. Just me though.

Gichan · Oct 27, 2009

People have caught on the ftilt "easy button" kill, it only works on noobs now...I try to stay by the edge and make them think I'm going for the ftilt now then grab or fsmash, oorrr wiff an ftilt then punish.

Yeah, I like playing the first match on FD or SV, but not BF. That under the platform crap is too much for me, and too long to wait to punish. Cause dair is sooooo important in this matchup. I say dair over the waft as we use it to punish nados, upBs, and shield pressure. The waft is to kill. But a good point mentioned is that because of the amount of camping, we can easily recharge that fart.

And can anyone give tips on how to kill a careful MK at high percents?

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Oct 28, 2009

Padô said:
This match IMO is based on the fart, it's the most important thing here, the safest and easiest Wario option to kill MK. The easiest way to rack percentage is by punishing his UpB's and shieldgrabbing his Fairs and Ftilts, NEVER TRY TO SHIELDGRAB HIS FSMASH YOU RE GOING TO GET PWNED BY A DSMASH.

If you take the lead let him camp, and when your fart is almost 1:50 try to punish safely and then wait for an opening. FSmash is good here but hard to land AND he'll almost perfectshield all of'em unless you read him for realz or use it against a SH Nair or a Glide attack which are VERY nice options.

If you miss the fart don't worry, we can easily use the timer on our favor against MK, tbh I think Wario is the only one who can. Then If MK starts to be agressive just apply the rule DMG have put on MK Boards: "Playing agressive against Wario is recipe to fail, we have watched many MKs doing that and they got grabbed 60 times in a row and died."

I'm not really sure if that answers my question outside of the PS. I know Waft is important. But I know it can be annoying to try to approach MK and frustrating but why not just camp him from the gate. I mean MK really can't compete with Wario win their in the air. His terrible air speed is made up by how fast his aerials are. So I'm just curious if we're able to camp MK reliable..

toobusytocare said:
uhhh.... its easy to kill MK with uair and ftilt lol

when he's on the ledge and getting up, try ftilting him

often it will hit them and they will get caught off guard and DI it horribly lol
this works vs a lot of characters

warios ftilt is incredible

I wouldn't call it incredible it has a lot of start up. Can be punished and is pretty easy to see coming. It's a good switch up but to say it's incredible is a stretch IMO.

PhantomX · Oct 28, 2009

You can't really aircamp MK, Nado gives him awesome airdodge punishing ability and air speed, plus his aerials are really really fast and have HUGE range.

toobusytocare · Oct 28, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
I'm not really sure if that answers my question outside of the PS. I know Waft is important. But I know it can be annoying to try to approach MK and frustrating but why not just camp him from the gate. I mean MK really can't compete with Wario win their in the air. His terrible air speed is made up by how fast his aerials are. So I'm just curious if we're able to camp MK reliable..

I wouldn't call it incredible it has a lot of start up. Can be punished and is pretty easy to see coming. It's a good switch up but to say it's incredible is a stretch IMO.

i get punished less for missed ftilts than fsmashes *shrug*

PhantomX · Oct 28, 2009

I think you wrote that backwards.

Pwneroni · Oct 28, 2009

In my experience, my favorite move to use against metaknights is uair. If they are dair camping, sometimes I can jump up in between dairs and clap them.

It's also really hard to keep metaknight in the air. He has 6 extra jumps, and instead of airdodging like many other characters, they just throw out a dair or tornado to get back to the ground safely.

MK dair is too good.

Dynomite · Oct 28, 2009

DMG said:
I think Ftilt kinda sucks. Just me though.

i disagree, i use it to edge guard, sometimes they drill or tornado towards you and ftilt goes through both. that or bike edge guarding is your best bet

PhantomX · Oct 28, 2009

Don't bike edgeguard against MK, if he hits you before you get to toss it, your bike is now onstage, and you will probably get gimped within the next 20 seconds.

Dynomite · Oct 28, 2009

PhantomX said:
Don't bike edgeguard against MK, if he hits you before you get to toss it, your bike is now onstage, and you will probably get gimped within the next 20 seconds.

^^ you always have options, depends how good your judgement is. Unless you have a better form of guarding rather than bike or ftilt.

yet again, its mk he has countless recovery options =/

toobusytocare · Oct 28, 2009

PhantomX said:
I think you wrote that backwards.

lol indeed

fixed lol

Padô · Oct 29, 2009

I really think FTilt is useful.
It beats predictable Nados and punish ledge hopping fairs, fair brickwalls ad DTilts.

Share some numbers with us!
We are discussing all of this because of the numbers

Dynomite · Oct 29, 2009

Imo, its either going to be 45-55 or 50-50. People who have posted that it should be 55:45 or 60:40 have NOT posted any good reasons resulting the matter. I think we will have our answer once we find a way (if any full proof/easier) way to get passed: Air pressure, Fair camping, and platform pressure.

Padô · Oct 30, 2009

I'm with dyno on Wario 45-55 MK

Lord Chair · Oct 30, 2009

Wario - MK

45-55

Played the best MK in the Netherlands just a few days ago, nado isn't that big of a deal if you know your way around it, and you should.

Boring matchup with severely slows down brackets/pools/people's lives, if both players know how the match-up works it's pretty even, but Wario has to be more afraid than MK either way.

PhantomX · Oct 30, 2009

I'm not a big numbers guy, to be honest. We lose to MK though.

Padô · Nov 3, 2009

Enough of MK.

I'm counting the votes and soon the Snake's Rediscussion will be open.

If you didn't vote... DO IT!

DMG · Nov 3, 2009

60:40 MK favor.

Yeah, bite me.

Corrupted · Nov 3, 2009

I play vs MK way too much :x

60-40.

Padô · Nov 3, 2009

We got that format on votes:

2 votes on 45:55 or 40:60
1 vote on 45:55
4/5 votes on 40:60 (maybe PX too)
1 vote on 50:50 or 45:55

So I'm taking, until now the 40:60 since the majority might agree.

Anyone who declines my voting method?

OBS: Corrupted are 60:40 Wario's or MK's favor?

Wario's Week 16 Matchup REDISCUSSION: MetaKnight

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