Wario's Week 16 Matchup REDISCUSSION: MetaKnight

[leatherhead93]

Warios more disjointed than ppl think :o

Tends to show in his tilts :D

 

[Lord Chair]

I have yet to understand how retreating short hop does not mean committing to giving up space, or how it applies the pressure needed for MK to approach.

 

[Padô]

Chair, I've seen a lot of people getting trapped because of retreated SHs, MK could just dash > shield and wait for you to land or use your second jump. If you do your second jump he can UpB you or Fair/Uair, which is bad, if you land you can get grabbed if you don't bite him or he can setup you for a grab with DTilt or rack damage with FTilt, also if he spaces it correctly you bite won't get him shielding, thats why you are letting ground go agaisnt MK. The point is, MK stays confortable near you SHing while you seem pressured which renders you to a higher margin of error than he has, honestly MK won't worry too much on missing an aerial or a tilt since HE'S SO FAST and SO BROKEN lol, you got the point, just not trolling.

Also Mew2King namesearching how depressing is this?

 

[Lord Chair]

Yeah the intention of my post was to hint towards what you just said

 

[toobusytocare]

Sky is better than almost all of you ******s here. Listen to him douchebags. He has been improving a lot lately.

*is undefeated vs sky in MMs and friendlies*

EDIT: with kirby

EDIT 2: and CF

EDIT 3: nvm, sky beat my falcon with PT

EDIT 4: i still beat his falco with kirby

 

[Padô]

*is undefeated vs sky in MMs and friendlies*

EDIT: with kirby

EDIT 2: and CF

EDIT 3: nvm, sky beat my falcon with PT

EDIT 4: i still beat his falco with kirby

EDIT #3 contradicts your first statement, you said UNDEFEATED while you lost to PKMN TRAINER HAHA.

 

[toobusytocare]

i beat his peach and GnW with CF so its all good

and I beat his Falco and PT with kirby

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Lord Chair]

Yeah I figure he'd easily be able to disprove the aforementioned statements on his approach to this matchup.

I figure SKY would easily be able to do so. Sky', Sky`. Amiright?

 

[toobusytocare]

ITT: everybody but me hates sky

 

[Sky`]

I'm not gonna wall text and disprove anything. If you guys want to think that I'm crazy for what I'm saying then I don't feel there's any point to back up my statements.

I mean, you all have been playing Wario longer. I'll just wait till I actually do something with Wario before I talk about the MU.

So, It's whatever.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Lord Chair]

That's actually rather clever.

@Sky,

You know this is a discussion thread, if you make a statement and are unwilling to elaborate, then what credibility do you have? If you're sure you're right, then it shouldn't prove to be all too difficult to explain how we're wrong at not believing you.

As Masky said, we want you to be right, but if what you say does not compute with our experiences, it's difficult to put your advices into practice.

 

[Sky`]

It's his worst.

Are there any active Warios around there anymore? And I think M2k's only half-way decent vs. Wario from what he's let me do to him. Not as bad as Diddy but yeah.

Well Tyrant and Tearbear don't have an excuse, I think.

You're basically describing Wario's game lol. I'm curious as to how you're punishing MK's fair with a fair if you're jumping before him, and how you're punishing ftilts on reaction...

Because MK's create habits for them selves. You have to attack between frames. If you see an MK Fair, it's likely that he's going to do it again. Find the situation that he Fairs, and that's a punish. And you have to condition him to feel like he will punish your Airdodge with his Fair. After jumping back, you have enough momentum to Fair him between his Fair.

If you're SH close enough to him to where you're looking for a bait/punish, he can just nado. If not, you'll run out of stage eventually/ you're getting no where. Of course if they just run at you while you do this you could get stuff to work... But they shouldn't.

No he can't just 'nado'. You have enough momentum to fall back and Ftilt, or just fall back, jump again and Airdodge into punish. And with your constant mix ups, you should be Ftilting to predict that Nado anyway, I feel.

yep yep, but MK shouldn't be letting you get close enough to do any of this dair approach stuff most of the time as a way to approach. If he just stands there while you jump above him and he shields when you jump at him, go ahead and dair at him.

Wait, full hop? Or dair bombs?

If you're above MK, And you Dair after the peak of Wario's jump, you can do the perfect Dair, which is safe in shield because the strong hit box knocks them away, and then it perfectly auto cancels into shield so he can't attack you. Basically, you're hitting him far enough away to not grab you, and then your shield comes out. so you can't be punished with Ftilt or something. Much like Clapping behind somebody's shield, it's very difficult to punish.

NO ONE, especially MK, should let dthrow stuff happen anymore, they can just run/jump/roll away. But again, as with the dair thing, if they let it work, do it. IMO you're better off uthrowing and catching them being stupid that way. lolairspeed.

D-throw isn't something that's 'old news'. To say that nobody should let that work is the same as saying nobody should let Snake's Dthrow work anymore. It's a guessing game, and the rewards are great. And if you could do something after a Dthrow with Low risk Low reward which is the basis of Wario, why not do it? I just gave an option after Dthrow.

Decent mixup? Maybe. But it doesn't beat shield if they can get close enough, and any farther away they shouldn't be running at you, and they'll have enough time to react and shield/ reset the situation. I can still get hits by just throwing out ftilts when mk is far away from me though, it's stupid.

In summary, none of this works as a reliable/safe way to get hits, but if they let it work, then do it. The risk/reward or whatever is usually against Wario though.

It's not that they let you do it, when you condition somebody to react a certain way, they are not 'letting' you do anything. Rather you're forcing them to react the way you want. So anything is reliable and safe if you know how they are going to react.


People just see MK as auto loss, and they regard this matchup as his Worst. It's really not his worst. I think that people like Luigi and Peach are his 'worst' MU. But not MK.

Also, Guaranteed fart after a Nair? MK's Hitboxes, whether you think so or not, are predictable because we've seen them over and over and over again. And as we know, a Powershield isn't luck, it's a read. So if we can see everything MK has, and there in react and punish with a move that kills at 60, how can we default this to his 'worst' mu? Sure you can use that logic for every character, but everyone here knows MK like the back of their hand, so this logic is best used for MK.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Because MK's create habits for them selves. You have to attack between frames. If you see an MK Fair, it's likely that he's going to do it again. Find the situation that he Fairs, and that's a punish. And you have to condition him to feel like he will punish your Airdodge with his Fair. After jumping back, you have enough momentum to Fair him between his Fair.

And if the MK doesn't do a second Fair?

No he can't just 'nado'. You have enough momentum to fall back and Ftilt, or just fall back, jump again and Airdodge into punish. And with your constant mix ups, you should be Ftilting to predict that Nado anyway, I feel.

Depending on the distance he can nado you. Even if ftilt breaks nado you'll have to get it out in time and actually predict the nado. You can't ftilt nado on reaction.

If you're above MK, And you Dair after the peak of Wario's jump, you can do the perfect Dair, which is safe in shield because the strong hit box knocks them away, and then it perfectly auto cancels into shield so he can't attack you. Basically, you're hitting him far enough away to not grab you, and then your shield comes out. so you can't be punished with Ftilt or something. Much like Clapping behind somebody's shield, it's very difficult to punish.

Utilt? Uair?

D-throw isn't something that's 'old news'. To say that nobody should let that work is the same as saying nobody should let Snake's Dthrow work anymore. It's a guessing game, and the rewards are great. And if you could do something after a Dthrow with Low risk Low reward which is the basis of Wario, why not do it? I just gave an option after Dthrow.

I'll agree with this getting a read from the dthrow is nice. I however wouldn't take your scenario into account and use it for every MK since everyone plays different. I'd either walk away or just shield after the first dthrow to get a read. No 2 players play the same.

It's not that they let you do it, when you condition somebody to react a certain way, they are not 'letting' you do anything. Rather you're forcing them to react the way you want. So anything is reliable and safe if you know how they are going to react.

If you condition someone and are able to get read the MU will be easier it's not a MK v Wario thing it's a player thing.

People just see MK as auto loss, and they regard this matchup as his Worst. It's really not his worst. I think that people like Luigi and Peach are his 'worst' MU. But not MK.

Also, Guaranteed fart after a Nair? MK's Hitboxes, whether you think so or not, are predictable because we've seen them over and over and over again. And as we know, a Powershield isn't luck, it's a read. So if we can see everything MK has, and there in react and punish with a move that kills at 60, how can we default this to his 'worst' mu? Sure you can use that logic for every character, but everyone here knows MK like the back of their hand, so this logic is best used for MK.

They regard it as his worse MU because it is his worst MU. It's not unwinnable and Wario can still win the MU. However, it is an up hill battle for wario to say otherwise would be silly.

 

[Lord Chair]

MK should rarely commit to shielding in this matchup, because walling can pretty much always be used as a substitute. Your thoughts on ftilt make it seem like it's a fast move, it isn't. If you're in the air and MK nadoes, FF > ftilt is way too slow. Dairing the nado isn't always as practical if MK knows how to space his nado properly.

In fact, a properly spaced nado cannot be punished (perhaps DACUS, **** DACUS).

You haven't replied to my post, I think I made some valid points.

 

[Blue Rogue]

fair stuff

I was thinking MK was only doing SHFF-retreating-whatever fairs, but if they're completely chasing and trying to pressure you while staying in the air the whole time, I agree that's a good opportunity to hit him/get inside.
Actually, I'm not quite understanding how you're saying MK is using fair, is it SHing toward you or staying airborne between fairs?

No he can't just 'nado'. You have enough momentum to fall back and Ftilt, or just fall back, jump again and Airdodge into punish. And with your constant mix ups, you should be Ftilting to predict that Nado anyway, I feel.

So if Wario's doing these jump shenanigans at a far enough distance away to land and jump again or ftilt to beat a nado, MK shouldn't be rushing like that(and probably could just see he wouldn't get a hit in beforehand), but if he does, it is another good time to get a punish.

dair stuff

So you're saying perfect auto-canceling dairs on MKs Shield? Yes, he can't punish you afterwards, but any competent MK should learn quick that he can stop you from getting above him readily from a neutral position. But like I said if they shield when you jump above them go for it, but if you're reading shields that hard, you should just go for bite.. But they'd probably figure it out faster that way, lol.

dthrow

First of all Snake's dthrow limits everyone to like 5 very punishable options. With Wario's dthrow, almost everyone can just reset the situation by running or jumping away. But even if they don't try to reset, it turns into rock-paper-scissors. But like a said, if it works, do it. I prefer uthrow because it puts MK in a position where he can't punish you(as hard) for guessing wrong, and can be more rewarding(clap and utilt which put him back above you, and a easier way to hit waft.)

It's not that they let you do it, when you condition somebody to react a certain way, they are not 'letting' you do anything. Rather you're forcing them to react the way you want. So anything is reliable and safe if you know how they are going to react.

This is a matchup discussion, not a catch players being bad discussion. I agree this is how you should play it, but IMO having to do only this and not being able to rely on safe things every once in a while is what makes this matchup bad.

If you condition someone and are able to get read the MU will be easier isn't affected it's not a MK v Wario thing it's a player thing.

What he said, kinda.

People just see MK as auto loss, and they regard this matchup as his Worst. It's really not his worst. I think that people like Luigi and Peach are his 'worst' MU. But not MK.

Predict and condition every move Luigi and Peach do and it would be easier too.

Also, Guaranteed fart after a Nair? MK's Hitboxes, whether you think so or not, are predictable because we've seen them over and over and over again. And as we know, a Powershield isn't luck, it's a read. So if we can see everything MK has, and there in react and punish with a move that kills at 60, how can we default this to his 'worst' mu? Sure you can use that logic for every character, but everyone here knows MK like the back of their hand, so this logic is best used for MK.

Why can't you learn everyone else like the back of your hand? You're saying that this matchup can't be his worst because we should know it the best? I can't agree with that way of thinking. MUs IMO should be approached by thinking that we should know everyone like you say we should know MK, especially when comparing them. After all, don't we discuss matchups as if it were the top of the metagame? That's why I'm arguing all this stuff that shouldn't work if MK does it right. I can't this exactly how I want to.. ugh. I might come back to this...
Thinking about it a bit, I think you say things that can be more applied to Wario in general, rather than them being special vs. Meta things.
AL and Lord Chair said some good things.
boing!

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[hunger!]

ftilt is really slow and MK can space the tornado so ftilt clashes with it

wrong.

ftilt goes through that shiit for free if timed right.

yo sky. send me some of your recent stuff on aim or pm's and let me critique you if you really wanna get serious with this terrible character.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Dynomite]

MK DA BESS!!

100th post. GET AT ME!

 

[D_B_S]

45-55 wario-mk IMO

I just feel a mk is more likely to rack up damage quicker and has the to get an earlier kill without having to
risk taking alot of damage. And Nado is just 2 good after they get a lead....d-air camp and nado away

Wario still has a chance in this match up though ...the fart is the best thing again metaknight

if a meta is off stage I just go fart

(>^_^)>

 

[Lord Chair]

ftilt hits on frame 14. it can't be used against Tornado like Snake's utilt can (frame 3 or w/e). you have to start it up while they're tornadoing towards you and hope they just blindly tornado into you. also it is very easy to space the tornado vertically so that the tornado hits wario but ftilt clashes with it instead of going through it. if they're just doing it horizontally towards you, fsmash is a better choice.

Neh, if you up angle the ftilt he won't be able to do that. Ftilt works fine against nado, the problem is rather that you don't have the time to SH, land and start a ftilt in the time MK decides to just 'lolnado'.

 

[Sky`]

I have videos of my recent Wario, I'm gonna try to upload them.
I have some against M2K and Tyrant, I'll try to voice over what I feel about this MU. kk?

 

[Pwneroni]

I feel that this matchup is 50-50. Wario's aerial maneuverability makes it easy to space against MK's fairs and uairs, what I like to do against a walling MK is double jump dair. If the MK is in the middle of a fair, the dair will hit, follow up from there.

Follow ups are extremely important against MK, because you have to be really good at reading to be safe. For example, if Wario does a dthrow, MK has a ton of fast moves that can hit you before you can even turn around to do something. However, a dash the other way and shff an uair punishes MK's dsmash. Dash away sh dair punishes ftilt. Read the up b, you can get a clap or fart in after you shield the initial hit.

Tornado sucks against Wario. I consistently punish nado, because A. You can just dodge it or dair through the center, and B. If you get hit, SDI up and airdodge, SDI and airdodge again, then you can punish freely.

Fart is amazing against MK. Kills early, use it reactively to punish dairs and shuttle loops. Eggz hates Wario because of fart.

At the edge, stand outside the range of ledgehopped uairs. MK has a few options here: shuttle loop (risky), fair (semi risky), and uair (not risky), along with get up attacks and such. When MK tries to fair, just shield and grab if you can. If they space correctly then just stay there and let your shield recharge. You are in control here. Do not go off the edge lol, rarely pays off.

I have a lot of Wario experience, and I got a good amount of MK experience at BIO4 and in Eugene staying with Eggz, t1mmy and t0mmy (whom all play MK). I've mained Wario since early 2008 so I know my stuff. I play aggressively, and lately I've been growing some brains as well.

Recent notable win is against Tearbear at BIO4, I beat him in pools 2-1. VS MK first round, Kirby 2nd round, MK again 3rd round. Very intense matches.

Oh! Speaking of Tearbear, be careful of charging Fsmashes. Usually I punish with double jump dair, but MK can do a shuttle loop really quickly after the fsmash comes out.

 

[DMG]

So much conflicting info in this thread. Ok DMG gonna clear some of it up. This is gonna be quite long.

Dthrow: Both are right, for the wrong reasons. Dthrow is a character and opponent dependent throw. You have to know who can DJ before they land, who is fast enough to turn around and attack faster than you can, who is vulnerable, who can escape but has limited options, etc. MK in particular it REALLY depends on who you are playing. People who understand what options they have after Dthrow will not mind being put there. These people you do not Dthrow unless you have pressure on them (near the edge of the stage, kill %'s, what not). There is little point in trying to get that read on those kind of people and Fthrowing them for the damage is much safer. Now, on everyone else, Dthrow is fine to use.

Common mixups: Fsmash, Running Regrab, SH Dair, SH Airdodge, Shield, Regular Grab, Ftilt, Fart. Good ones? Only running regrab, Shield, Fart, and SH Dair.

MK matchup: Wario obviously loses. I know you all bashing Sky for retreating SH talk, but there is some merit to the idea. Going back gives you space to react, and it allows you to do what I personally abuse quite a bit. Run up and Shield. Why do this against MK? Because it's about all Wario has TBH. Long gone are the days of trying to airdodge into MK to punish him. That is too risky nowadays because of how many safe options he has to deal with that. He has options, that guarantee him a neutral or better position regardless of how you choose to respond in those kind of situations. Therefore, I opt to go for the more favorable Rock Paper Scissors exchange on the ground involving shield.

While MK outranges Wario quite a bit on the ground, his ground attacks leave him open to other assaults. And obviously if you get in close enough, shielding any attack of his can lead to free damage for Wario. Now of course, not even this is foolproof. MK's smart enough to poke with Dtilt, smart enough to roll away from the danger, smart enough to wait and see what Wario does before comitting, those are the people that will beat you anyways and will show you clearly that the matchup is no fun. But that's about it as far as what Wario can realistically hope for in this matchup. The only other thing you can try is Super Defense Wario. I've gotten some timeouts that way by making the MK approach and beating him out in the RPS and just waiting over and over, but you have to be very good at reads to do this. I mean Verrrrry Good. Like crapping on Bassem in the Wario Ditto good. (ILY Bassem <3)

Also, get good at punishing the MK drop down DJ Airdodge option from the ledge. It is by far their safest avenue to getting back onstage, and taking that away can make them doubt what to do next. That is one thing I do not allow to happen at all in the matchup lol.

As for Sky, welcome. Dunno what happened to the Reception Committee lol, looks like everyone is grumpy these days. I'll admit, some of your stuff was a bit out there, but a lot of it does make sense and is pretty reasonable.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Neh, if you up angle the ftilt he won't be able to do that. Ftilt works fine against nado, the problem is rather that you don't have the time to SH, land and start a ftilt in the time MK decides to just 'lolnado'.

The only problem is you have to predict the nado if you want to break it with ftilt. It's not as though ftilt comes out fast enough for you to be able to hit on reaction. It's best to just jump away. Then attempt to punish from my experience.

Just because X move can beat out Y attack doesn't mean you should throw out X move to beat Y attack. A perfect example of this is dair vs glide attack.

 

[Pwneroni]

The only time I ever end up breaking tornado with ftilt is if they try to use it from a ledgehop. Other than that I double jump and down air, or just shield the whole thing and grab to fthrow.

Dthrow is simply a mixup. Usually I just fthrow, safer and guaranteed ~14% (with pummels).

 

[toobusytocare]

fsmash is better than ftilt for breaking nado imo because with ftilt you have to predict the tornado and if you whiff it then they can just nado lol

fsmash can be done on reaction as soon as the tornado is close enough and is kills sooner too

the drawback is that fsmash has more cooldown but as far as i know if you do it right then they cant back out fast enough to avoid it and make you whiff, but iono

 

[Pwneroni]

If the nado is the height of Wario's head, the fsmash won't hit him pretty sure. You can angle the ftilt upwards.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If the nado is the height of Wario's head, the fsmash won't hit him pretty sure. You can angle the ftilt upwards.

That is true.

Utilt the nado. Only pros do it.

 

[Dynomite]

That is true.

Utilt the nado. Only pros do it.

AL knows whats up. Up tilt 2 gud.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Dynomite]

****. I don't wanna go against my Mr. Miyagi but I really like uptilt as a move. I don't spam it but if I see an opportunity to use uptilt I do indeed use it. There aren't that many :sadface:

 

[leatherhead93]

angled upward ftilt comes out pretty fast actually :o

 

[Dynomite]

angled upward ftilt comes out pretty fast actually :o

What does angled up tilt have anything to do with it coming out faster. It still comes out at frame 14.

 

[DMG]

Ok some more info for you all.

Ftilt actually loses to Tornado when risen. Sucks yes. Doesn't matter if you angle up or not. Me and Dphat tested it out a lot.

 

[leatherhead93]

Really? I always thought angled up ftilt came out the fastest of all the angles.
O well just goes to show you cant judge move by looks :o

Also dephat is **** :D

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[bassem6]

I mean Verrrrry Good. Like crapping on Bassem in the Wario Ditto good. (ILY Bassem <3)
.

hehe we are 1-1 bobby!