Each Ganon's personal MU-ratio 2010 - (Finished)

A2ZOMG · Nov 9, 2010

smashkng, stop failing at theorycraft. The difference between you and me here is that I ACTUALLY USED THESE OPTIONS IN REAL MATCHES.

Ike's SA frames on Up-B are terrible. They are of absolutely no concern when edgeguarding Ike. The point is if you aren't attempting to edgehog Ike as he Up-Bs, you're edgeguarding him completely wrong. If you time it perfectly, either he dies or you U-air him and THEN he dies. If you time it slightly early, he still gets U-aired and dies. It helps that you can actually edgehog his Up-B on reaction since the sword only flies up on like frame 20 or something.

Plus I'm not concerned if Ike's only good kill is retreat B-air. Retreat spacing is a fundamental defensive commitment available to all characters. Hell I can make something like Mario's F-air safe on block if I simply use it while retreating.

smashkng · Nov 9, 2010

Except that Ganon doesn't really have this other than in his Bair which is so hard to hit with on someone in the ground and his super laggy Fair (I don't know if it is that safe on shield against Ike though, because it is so laggy Ike can probably DA OoS it). Although 20 frames is actually correct on Up b, like Link's Fsmash its barely noticeable animation makes edge hogging on reaction requiring above average reaction time if actually not impossible.

A2ZOMG · Nov 9, 2010

Smashkng, I think I can safely deduce that your spacing sucks. There's tricks that you can do to space B-airs on grounded opponents. Fullhop U-air/B-air -> B-air, sh B-air -> fastfall, and plus Ike is actually tall enough to hit with autocanceled B-airs when he's standing.

Also eating a DA oos isn't much to cry about against Ike. If you can space F-air consistently and that's all he can punish you with for doing it, you should abuse it more.

the king of murder · Nov 9, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
My Ike is rather decent and I'm well aware of Ike's Jab and B-throw shenanigans, but does this stop Ganon from implementing his superior midrange game? Hell naw..

Ike's superior close range game(Jab) and long range game(F-air) coupled with a good defense and offense option(N-air-->Jab, B-air and U-tilt all at low percent) makes up for that. On top of that N-air can lead into another N-air if you Air Dodge. Basically everything can be unsafe against Ike and he punishs Ganon harder than Ganon punishs Ike.

I also disagree with Ike being easy to gimp. If Ike spaces Aether correctly Ganon should never hit him. Even if you space your moves well. I never got even close to get gimped by a Ganon. The only way you could punish an Ike for his recovery attempts is if he recovers too high like in this video. (Watch at 1:38 to see what I mean). If Ike uses his Aether too high he will risk getting punished but if he uses it low, Ganon won't be able to punish him. Not to mention that Ike has more options to get back On-stage than Ganon.

Z1GMA · Nov 9, 2010

Thx to Ike beeing heavy, Ftilt ***** him harder

(Sends him at a lower trajectory.)

So, Ike's weight actually works against him in this MU.

Like A2 said, Ledge Invinci Frames >>>>> Ike.
It forces him to use Aether SA Frames.
If he doesn't - He dies.

Reverse invinci Uair Vs Aether's SA: 0-0 at first, but then we can hit him
with a DJ Uair or edgehog him.
'Cause his sword will be high above him, and he is left alone with Ganon in his face.

Heartstring · Nov 9, 2010

everyone stfu, i mained ike for well over a year XP

ike can outrange ganon on most things. and generally he will keep ganon away at all times, plus ikes top jab/grab game will stop you from coming in for close range too. however ike is still one of the bigest victims in the game. ftilt will be his downfall as ganon. as the low trajectory will gimp him at stupidly low percents providing we can land it.
also the tipman uair is guaranteed to gimp ike after hitting him once
so in other words, if he goes offstage he shouldnt ever get back. but its just getting him there thats the problem
supreme spacing is gonig to be a factor here. however with ike's lack of multi-hit moves and long startup on moves attacks it leaves it relatively easy to powershield hit attacks and punish the landing lag (unless he uses nair is which case trying to bait another attack is probably better.

i would say 45:55. possibly 40:60 depending on how the ike plays, more fair orientated and is easier, more nair orientated and its harder.
as for stages, i would say ban battlefield as ike loves to hang around under platforms all day. on the other hand take him to a stage where it easy to get him offstage, my personal choice would be delphino, as our water spiking is better, and its also fairly likely hell get forced offstage by stage changes

smashkng · Nov 9, 2010

Lol even if tipman is often guaranteed death at around 50%+, just try to do it through his Up b, it's way too risky at most times. And Ike doesn't die of a Ftilt at that low percents, maybe 80% but even the Ftilt is DIable by a little bit.

Heartstring · Nov 9, 2010

stupidly low percent in relation to when he SHOULD die, so about 70% is low.
plus it takes about 5 ganon hits to get to that percent

Makke · Nov 9, 2010

......................

A2ZOMG · Nov 9, 2010

the king of murder said:
Ike's superior close range game(Jab) and long range game(F-air) coupled with a good defense and offense option(N-air-->Jab, B-air and U-tilt all at low percent) makes up for that. On top of that N-air can lead into another N-air if you Air Dodge. Basically everything can be unsafe against Ike and he punishs Ganon harder than Ganon punishs Ike.

I also disagree with Ike being easy to gimp. If Ike spaces Aether correctly Ganon should never hit him. Even if you space your moves well. I never got even close to get gimped by a Ganon. The only way you could punish an Ike for his recovery attempts is if he recovers too high like in this video. (Watch at 1:38 to see what I mean). If Ike uses his Aether too high he will risk getting punished but if he uses it low, Ganon won't be able to punish him. Not to mention that Ike has more options to get back On-stage than Ganon.

Ike's F-air really shouldn't be giving you too many problems unless you have a bad habit of spamming wizkick or something.

Ike's juggles suck. You can react to basically all of his juggle moves, and either opt to jump or airdodge ON REACTION (not on reflex) to avoid his stuff. As long as you aren't stupid about wasting your midair jump on stage, Ike really doesn't have much to punish it when juggling you.

Ike does kinda punish hard with his Jab, but Ganon punishes harder with Flame Choke if you use it correctly. Plus Ganon's juggles on Ike >>>> Ike's juggles on Ganon.

And seriously, Ike is almost BRAIN DEAD EASY TO EDGEGUARD SAFELY.

Just attempt to edgehog him. The timing for it isn't hard, especially since you can REACT to his Up-B for crying out loud. Either you time it right and you edgehog him with your ledgestand/roll correctly like good players do, or you just ledgedrop U-air and hit him out of Up-B. If you don't know how to do this, I highly suggest you quit Brawl for a month and play Melee. Then pick up Brawl again and feel bad that you ever let Ike recover back to the stage safely with his Up-B.

Furthermore, Ike is the one character in the game who you actually can legitimately edgeguard with U-tilt. Sourspot U-tilt can kill him anywhere from like 90-100% vertically, and it reaches low enough to hit Ike out of Up-B no matter how carefully he's sweetspotting.

Vermanubis · Nov 9, 2010

Vermanubis: 35:65
Comment: Having experience with the putative best Ike on the planet, I feel confident in my assessment of this MU. Ike's jab game messes us up harder than anything. He will win every OoS/close range confrontation unless you have godly SDI, in which case, you still run the risk of being predicted. Ike can gimp Ganon fairly easily, Ganon can't gimp him at all without taking huge risks, etc. Ganon does have Gerudo, but that can only take him so far. Ike is just very tough to approach and just has way nastier things on us than we have on him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS71gEnFjfY Verm vs. San
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjDfcDlIwRo&feature=related

Heartstring · Nov 9, 2010

another thing, ike is one of the hadest chars to gerudo tech chase due to long fast rolls and a fast getup attack

A2ZOMG · Nov 9, 2010

First match...**** Delfino lmao.

Second match...bull**** in general.

Those were pretty ****ing horrible matches tbh lol. Honestly it looked like neither of you knew the matchup.

Given that you think edgeguarding Ike is taking a lot of risks, I have fair reason to believe that you have much to learn about this matchup. It's no different from edgeguarding in Melee. It's easy to do consistently and very effective. You just have to know your **** and be confident with it.

the king of murder · Nov 9, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
Ike's F-air really shouldn't be giving you too many problems unless you have a bad habit of spamming wizkick or something.

Except that it keeps Ganon away from Ike if spaced correctly which is a problem.

Ike's juggles suck. You can react to basically all of his juggle moves, and either opt to jump or airdodge ON REACTION (not on reflex) to avoid his stuff. As long as you aren't stupid about wasting your midair jump on stage, Ike really doesn't have much to punish it when juggling you.

That's the problem here. If Ike forces you to Air Dodge you are already in a bad position. He can punish ADs with N-air and it will hit Ganon for sure because of it's long lasting hitbox. Other options are U-air and U-smash(though a missed U-smash means free Gerudo for you).

Ike does kinda punish hard with his Jab, but Ganon punishes harder with Flame Choke if you use it correctly. Plus Ganon's juggles on Ike >>>> Ike's juggles on Ganon.

Agreed that Ganon has a good juggle game on Ike but I don't agree that he has a better one.

And seriously, Ike is almost BRAIN DEAD EASY TO EDGEGUARD SAFELY.

If you are a character like Sonic, then yes. For Ganon it's going to be riskier.

Just attempt to edgehog him. The timing for it isn't hard, especially since you can REACT to his Up-B for crying out loud. Either you time it right and you edgehog him with your ledgestand/roll correctly like good players do, or you just ledgedrop U-air and hit him out of Up-B. If you don't know how to do this, I highly suggest you quit Brawl for a month and play Melee. Then pick up Brawl again and feel bad that you ever let Ike recover back to the stage safely with his Up-B.

Those things are not guranteed. You still have to take the risks in mind.

Furthermore, Ike is the one character in the game who you actually can legitimately edgeguard with U-tilt. Sourspot U-tilt can kill him anywhere from like 90-100% vertically, and it reaches low enough to hit Ike out of Up-B no matter how carefully he's sweetspotting.

Gimping Ike with U-tilt is very situational if the Ike isn't predictable or has been put in bad position already.

Anyway we argued enough about this. Feel free to post your doubts in the real MU thread.

Makke · Nov 9, 2010

....................

Heartstring · Nov 9, 2010

teres still the minor fact that ike sends his sword up first, he can also send it a fair way through the stage safely on smashville and battlefield, be sure to not let him go there

the king of murder · Nov 9, 2010

We had enough talk about Ike. We should continue with our personal opinion ratio.

Vermanubis · Nov 9, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
First match...**** Delfino lmao.

Second match...bull**** in general.

Those were pretty ****ing horrible matches tbh lol. Honestly it looked like neither of you knew the matchup.

Given that you think edgeguarding Ike is taking a lot of risks, I have fair reason to believe that you have much to learn about this matchup. It's no different from edgeguarding in Melee. It's easy to do consistently and very effective. You just have to know your **** and be confident with it.

According to San, he played Kalm regularly. He knows the match-up quite well, as do I. Watkins, Ussi, San and other Ikes can vouch for this. I'm fine if you think the videos are poop, because stupid stuff happened in both matches. But, I am taken aback at the ostentation of your position.

You're epitomizing theorycrafting. Most of what you said is something that has clearly not been put to practice against top players. I defy anyone to gimp or edgehog a pro Ike. Ike is easy to edgeguard on one condition: he has horrible DI and is far enough below the ledge that he'd sweetspot it. If he has good DI, he can stall, land onstage if you're hogging, and his Aether hitbox stays out too long for edgeguarding unless you're >100%. You can hurt him during his aether, but it's circumstantial. You can DA him while he flies up to his sword, or you can jump behind him and BAir, which has to be timed almost perfectly to get in before the super armor.

You regrettably lack the heuristic experience in this MU to convince me that your position is correct. Logic is nice, but without the necessary experience and variables of reasoning, it's just an empty husk. As this is, so is theorizing--an opulent table dressed for a feast with no goods to offer.

Don't take this personally, A2. I'm just in a feisty mood.

Z1GMA · Nov 9, 2010

(Guys, these are personal opinions.)

Z1GMA: 42 - 58
Comment: His jabs. Those... Jabs...
Every Ganon who has met a good Ike knows how much he/she depend on Jabs.
His Jab Cancel can do pretty nasty things to Ganon.

Let's say we swapped Jabs with Ike. We got his Jab - He got our Jab.
We'd get a Ganon 70 - 30 Ike, no doubt.

Anyway... Get him off the stage - He'll die.
Perferably with Ftilt.

Also, Ganon exel at Dtilt-distance in this MU.
It outranges Ike's Jabs, and it is faster than all of Ike's Long

SMASHKNG: 35 - 65
AVOID JAB AT ALL COSTS! Ganon is one of the easiest characters to jab cancel in the game normal jab canceling gives a total damage of 20% per jab but more if he locks which is possible on Ganon and his poor OoS doesn't help at all, it even ***** spot dodges. If you get hit by it, get an amazing SDI. Space Dtilts outside his jab range (don't know if he can shield grab it or not though). Don't get grabbed either at anything at mid percents from like 40 to 100%, the DA is completely unavoidable (or at higher percents TECH the Bthrow) and will put Ganon at a dangerously low angle, Ike does not have any trouble gimping Ganon like all other characters, while Ike is very risky to gimp for Ganon at most positions he falls offstage because of his Up b and if Ganon gets hit by it he doesn't have much chance of surviving, you must be careful offstage against Ike. He also has a Fthrow or Bthrow to Fthrow chain grab in walls and at high percents when you fall in the edge it's for Ganon to either choose to get hit by it or use his laggy air dodge and fall in a bad position. I think DA OoS can hit Ike from a well spaced Fair, but from Nair only powershielded. The Fair outranges Ganon in almost any way and can gimp well offstage with its range so he doesn't have to get any far offstage. Beware also retreating SH Bairs in the ground. While Ike is not so easy to tech chase because of his amazing rolls, having Gerudo Ftilt helps a lot in this MU, especially if you land it near the edge.

the king of murder: 30-70
Jab is not the only thing that wrecks Ganon though it's one of the reasons why it's a bad MU for us. Ike can Jab Cancel in so many things and Ganon is espacially vulnerable to Jab Cancel because he has no aerial fast enough to interrupt it. He can Jab Cancel to Jab 1 again, U-tilt, B-air, grab ect... (I once Jab Canceled a Ganon to Jab 1 over and over again). Jab also eats Spot Dodges. Ike's N-air can lead into either a Jab, B-air, U-tilt or U-air all at low -mid percent, can be autocanceled and is good for frame trapping. Ganon has nothing that outranges Ike's F-air so if he spaces it well, you can't punish him. You never want Ike to be beneath you because U-air, U-tilt and U-smash **** your Air Dodges if timed right. F-throw is a CG on stages with big walls. B-throw-->buffered DA is guaranteed at 12%-95%. D-throw can lead into N-air or U-air at very low percent. Ike is not easy to gimp if Aether is spaced correctly and you will risk getting Aether spiked if you go off-stage with him. Ike, however, has decent edgeguard tools against Ganon like F-air, U-smash and walk-off D-air.

Try getting Ike above you and molest him with U-air or N-air. Avoid his U-smash and you can punish with Gerudo or a grab. Force Ike to use Quick Draw as a Recovery and you can take care of it with N-ar or U-air.

A2ZOMG: 5/5
This matchup is so stupidly good for Ganon, it really upsets me when I look back at the times I know that simply playing smarter or knowing a simple trick would have won me this matchup. Ike's Jab is kinda annoying, but really isn't that much of a worry as long as you have good SDI. Also shieldgrabbing Ike's Jab REALLY helps in this matchup (time it right, you can basically grab his arm and grab him from twice your normal grab range), and throw followups are GREAT in this matchup.

Flame Choke is also stupidly good in this matchup. It's fairly easy to land because Ike sucks at landing and is slow, and you get like EVERYTHING out of choke on him that matters. D-tilt, F-tilt, and Dash attack. At low percents when you Flame Choke Ike, he should easily take like 40 damage from Flame Choke D-tilt resets or juggles as long as you make a good read. Then at moderate percents, get him offstage with F-tilt, edgeguard him with ledge invincibility abuse reverse U-air and he dies. Or alternatively you can U-tilt his Up-B if he's trying to sweetspot, or you can let Flame Choke Dash Attack kill him. Either way as long as your choke game is good and as long as you realize Ike's up-B is worse than yours and that you can punish his recovery HARD, you should at least have the advantage in scoring kills.

This matchup is just really really stupidly good for Ganon. You just need to be patient, DI well (don't be an idiot and DI away from B-throw -> DA), and know your choke followups and how to properly edgeguard. This matchup is very very winnable for Ganon.

Vermanubis: 35:65
Comment: Ike's jab game messes us up harder than anything. He will win every OoS/close range confrontation unless you have godly SDI, in which case, you still run the risk of being predicted. Ike can gimp Ganon fairly easily, Ganon can't gimp him at all without taking huge risks, etc. Ganon does have Gerudo, but that can only take him so far. Ike is just very tough to approach and just has way nastier things on us than we have on him.

Ussi · Nov 9, 2010

Utilt vs aether requires Ike to space Aether so that the wind box doesn't reach Ike, if you get too close, Ike can aether Ganon. If its FD (Ike's first ban choice) then sure, can't space aether well there.

My 2 cents on aether

Also, Verm played me in a serious set which went to last hit before playing san later that day (the irony i died cause i aether'd to close to the stage and got utilt'd).

Z1GMA · Nov 9, 2010

Sure, Ike can DI up/toward/up+toward to make it easier fom him to recover,
but if he gets sent out at a lower trajectory, "Invincy Tipman" ***** him.

Vermanubis · Nov 9, 2010

Z1GMA said:
Sure, Ike can DI up/toward/up+toward to make it easier fom him to recover,
but if he gets sent out at a lower trajectory, "Invincy Tipman" ***** him.

It does. But we have to consider what we have that will send Ike at a low enough trajectory given the Ike has good DI. Ftilt can be DI'd harder than hell. I did it to San plenty, but his DI is good, so he went up rather than down.

A2ZOMG · Nov 10, 2010

the king of murder said:
Except that it keeps Ganon away from Ike if spaced correctly which is a problem.

You have options to whiff punish it ranging from reverse F-smash, wizkick, Flame Choke, or your can powershield it and Dash Attack.

That's the problem here. If Ike forces you to Air Dodge you are already in a bad position. He can punish ADs with N-air and it will hit Ganon for sure because of it's long lasting hitbox. Other options are U-air and U-smash(though a missed U-smash means free Gerudo for you).

Okay, you missed a key point. The KEY THING about Ike is that he cannot force a baited airdodge in any realistic way. His aerials are all way too slow to do that, and if you airdodge on reaction to Ike's N-air/U-air, it outlasts the hitbox. Just wait for Ike to do a move. THEN react with your jump or airdodge or wizkick. This keeps you safe, since you can do this on reaction.

Agreed that Ganon has a good juggle game on Ike but I don't agree that he has a better one.

Ganon can autobait and punish an airdodge with the threat of his frame 6 U-air that even ends quickly enough that Ganon can often move before his opponent can if they airdodge as he U-airs. That's pretty much better than anything Ike has when it comes to juggling Ganon. Oh and Flame Choke >>>> anything Ike has for punishing read airdodges.

Those things are not guranteed. You still have to take the risks in mind.

Risk? What risk? Top players in SSF4 can get punished extremely hard if they miss one frame links when attempting a high damage combo. That doesn't mean it's actually risky to set up the combo as long as you have the right skills.

Sure if you **** up and don't know what you're doing, then you're screwing yourself by edgeguarding Ike incorrectly. Learn to do it correctly. It's not a risk. It's a skill that can be mastered.

Vermanubis said:
You're epitomizing theorycrafting. Most of what you said is something that has clearly not been put to practice against top players. I defy anyone to gimp or edgehog a pro Ike. Ike is easy to edgeguard on one condition: he has horrible DI and is far enough below the ledge that he'd sweetspot it. If he has good DI, he can stall, land onstage if you're hogging, and his Aether hitbox stays out too long for edgeguarding unless you're >100%. You can hurt him during his aether, but it's circumstantial. You can DA him while he flies up to his sword, or you can jump behind him and BAir, which has to be timed almost perfectly to get in before the super armor.

Most of what I said hasn't been put to practice against top players? Please don't make me laugh. All the things I've said happen ALL THE TIME in Melee. Look at high level Fox dittos. Shinespiking Fox out of Up-B is business as usual.

Ike's recovery is basically a perfect copy of a typical recovery from Melee. Doesn't go too far, requires DI to be remotely effective, and still can be punished hard for recovering high OR low and generally gets gimped if he's hit after expending his midair jump. And most importantly, he doesn't really autosweetspot the ledge. Put these things into perspective, I do not think this is an unreasonable expectation nor do I consider this merely just theorycraft. Especially since I've pulled off ledgedrop U-air gimps myself.

If Ike DIs, Ganon still has more than enough options to cover Ike's ability to recover high. Stand in the way of his SideB for starters. Also Ike's aerials are slow and laggy in the air, and Ganon's U-air autobaits airdodges.

The way Ike's Aether works, if he's able to reach the ledge, your ledgedrop U-air can definitely reach Ike as he jumps. All you need is reaction time.

Heartstring · Nov 10, 2010

45;45, reasons explianed earlier. i've got pretty good exp with both chars (moreso ike than ganon) and its a matchup which is harder than it seems at first for ike. however gimping a good ike is very hard, thus why its not even. it might even be 40:60

Vermanubis · Nov 10, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
Most of what I said hasn't been put to practice against top players? Please don't make me laugh. All the things I've said happen ALL THE TIME in Melee. Look at high level Fox dittos. Shinespiking Fox out of Up-B is business as usual.

What? I was referring to Brawl.

Ike's recovery is basically a perfect copy of a typical recovery from Melee. Doesn't go too far, requires DI to be remotely effective, and still can be punished hard for recovering high OR low and generally gets gimped if he's hit after expending his midair jump. And most importantly, he doesn't really autosweetspot the ledge. Put these things into perspective, I do not think this is an unreasonable expectation nor do I consider this merely just theorycraft. Especially since I've pulled off ledgedrop U-air gimps myself.

That's exactly the problem, A2: he doesn't sweetspot the ledge. If he goes high enough, he can land back onstage, and if low enough, tipman won't reach him and it will kill you. Yeah, I've gimped tons of bad Ikes. But good Ikes know a lot better. Tipman is very circumstantial, as anyone who's played top-level Ikes knows.

If Ike DIs, Ganon still has more than enough options to cover Ike's ability to recover high. Stand in the way of his SideB for starters. Also Ike's aerials are slow and laggy in the air, and Ganon's U-air autobaits airdodges.

What Ike side-bs to recover, unless they got knocked so far they were at >120%? None.

The way Ike's Aether works, if he's able to reach the ledge, your ledgedrop U-air can definitely reach Ike as he jumps. All you need is reaction time.

Brb, sending over half-way decent Ike to disprove theory.

A2ZOMG · Nov 10, 2010

Vermanubis said:
What? I was referring to Brawl.

What? I was referring to things that can be done CONSISTENTLY that ARE done consistently in high level play. Edgeguarding Ike's recovery is no different from edgeguarding a typical recovery from Melee. It can be done consistently, and practically always results in a gimp if you use the right tools. Ike pretty much has no business getting back without using some kind of recovery move, and you have a LOT of great answers to edgeguard and eventually gimp him no matter what he does.

That's exactly the problem, A2: he doesn't sweetspot the ledge. If he goes high enough, he can land back onstage, and if low enough, tipman won't reach him and it will kill you. Yeah, I've gimped tons of bad Ikes. But good Ikes know a lot better. Tipman is very circumstantial, as anyone who's played top-level Ikes knows.

You're talking about Aether right? If you time it right, it doesn't matter whether he recovers high or low. The aim is to edgehog on reaction, and then hit Ike as he jumps. And you definitely have way more than enough invincibility frames and U-air lingering hitbox frames to do this consistently.

Ussi · Nov 10, 2010

Alright... Now.. How do you plan to get Ike in said position?..

Ike can bair all day safely, one he gets the %lead, just wait for Ganon to approach. Ike can get the % lead way easier than Ganon.

/theorysmash

A lot of times, you aren't exactly near the ledge Ike is recovering too either.

Heartstring · Nov 10, 2010

thank you, another good mind to get this discusion over with

the king of murder · Nov 10, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
You have options to whiff punish it ranging from reverse F-smash, wizkick, Flame Choke, or your can powershield it and Dash Attack.

I think I didn't make myself clear. If spaced correctly Ganon cannot punish it. He has nothing that outranges Ike's F-air and his moves are simply too slow to punish him.

Okay, you missed a key point. The KEY THING about Ike is that he cannot force a baited airdodge in any realistic way.
His aerials are all way too slow to do that, and if you airdodge on reaction to Ike's N-air/U-air, it outlasts the hitbox. Just wait for Ike to do a move. THEN react with your jump or airdodge or wizkick. This keeps you safe, since you can do this on reaction.

First of all if Ike sends Ganon in the air, that's already a position. Ike just has to use his N-air when he is facing away from Ganon and it will hit him even if he ADs on reaction. U-smash also works. If you AD, Ike can hold his U-smash till the invincibility frames runs off. If you don't AD and wait for it until he releases his U-smash you have to predict when he is going to release it.

Ganon can autobait and punish an airdodge with the threat of his frame 6 U-air that even ends quickly enough that Ganon can often move before his opponent can if they airdodge as he U-airs.

Yeah and that is what Ganon is likely to do if Ike is above him. Ike can predict it, Airdodge, I'm done. Pretty much what you have been saying about Ganon and Ike just not with reaction but with prediction.

That's pretty much better than anything Ike has when it comes to juggling Ganon. Oh and Flame Choke >>>> anything Ike has for punishing read airdodges.

That's your opinion.

Risk? What risk? Top players in SSF4 can get punished extremely hard if they miss one frame links when attempting a high damage combo. That doesn't mean it's actually risky to set up the combo as long as you have the right skills.

You want to tipman him? You will risk getting Aether spiked.

Edgehog? lol people got hit by Aether anyway. Of course you can edgehog him but you have to be frame perfect to not get hit by Aether.

U-tilt? No Ike should ever get hit by U-tilt unless he is predictable or has to use Quick Draw as a recovery.

Sure if you **** up and don't know what you're doing, then you're screwing yourself by edgeguarding Ike incorrectly. Learn to do it correctly. It's not a risk. It's a skill that can be mastered.

You always talk about how you can beat Ike's moveset on reaction. In practice this does not happen most of the time.

Also I want to add that SDI out of his Jab Cancel is not the solution to everything. SDI behind? Ike can turn around and do a Jab again. SDI down? You're going to get hit by Jab 2 and Jab 3. SDI away? Ike can chase you.

Any further reply of you will be ignored. Take the discusion to the real MU thread, VM or PM.

smashkng · Nov 10, 2010

There is absolutely no way this MU is any close to even if the Ike knows what he does. And A2Z, Ike's Up is like Melee Up b except that his sword's multi hit with a trascended priority and long horizontal range outranging Ganon's Fsmash makes it much harder to edge guard. Ike gimps Ganon MUCH better than viceversa, usually a walk-off Fair was worked an offstage kill method for me even if the Ganon DIes well. I don't think landing an Uair for Ike is hard on Ganon, it lasts forever and beats Wizard Kick because of its large disjoint.

Z1GMA · Nov 10, 2010

smashkng said:
Ike gimps Ganon MUCH better than viceversa
Not true. It's pretty even.

I don't think landing an Uair for Ike is hard on Ganon, it lasts forever and beats Wizard Kick because of its large disjoint.
I really depends. Uair beats Wizkick most of the time, but Wizkick can beat Uair if the timing is correct.
But the timing is pretty hard to learn, and you need to be lucky.
If both players randomly throw out their attacks, wizkick wins about 30% of the times, which isn't very reliable :/

__________________________________

Heartstring · Nov 10, 2010

ike u-air has higher priority on later frames, so by the tiem youre in position to wizkick, its alreafy at leter frames and youre going off the top

A2ZOMG · Nov 10, 2010

smashkng said:
There is absolutely no way this MU is any close to even if the Ike knows what he does. And A2Z, Ike's Up is like Melee Up b except that his sword's multi hit with a trascended priority and long horizontal range outranging Ganon's Fsmash makes it much harder to edge guard. Ike gimps Ganon MUCH better than viceversa, usually a walk-off Fair was worked an offstage kill method for me even if the Ganon DIes well. I don't think landing an Uair for Ike is hard on Ganon, it lasts forever and beats Wizard Kick because of its large disjoint.

So? It doesn't matter that it's disjointed or multihit. Mario, Roy, Doc, Link, and Young Link have similar Up-Bs. Those moves are still very easy to edgeguard with the simple tactic of grabbing the ledge and doing a ledgedrop aerial. There is NO ****ING DIFFERENCE and I don't give a **** that it outranges Ganon's F-smash. You just grab the ledge right before Ike is Up-Bing, and then you ledgedrop U-air. It's actually pretty hard to screw up as long as you know how to react to the beginning of Ike's Up-B.

Code:

Ledge invincibility: 1-46
Minimum Time on Ledge: 25 frames
Maximum "usable" ledge grab invincibility: 21

~Grounded Aether~
Hit: 18, 20-29, 30-38, 39, 46-57, 64-73, 74-77
SAF: 18-38
IASA: 110

The lowest hitbox of Aether is active on frame 18, and it takes about say...7 frames for the sword to reach about max height. So let's say you grab the ledge on frame 16-20. You will be stuck to the ledge as Aether reaches frame 41-45, which is about when Ike jumps upwards. By then, you are allowed to ledgedrop and abuse 21 frames of invincibility to gimp Ike with a ledgedrop reverse U-air. That is not hard to pull off at all.

Ike's walkoff F-air is only good if you suck at DIing and have **** reaction time. Midair jump + airdodge >>>>> anything Ike can do to edgeguard. His only aerial that hits before reaction time is B-air, and his B-air is MASSIVELY laggy and fails a ton on whiff.

Likewise if Ike tries throw -> F-air shenanigans, he's taking a huge risk if he misses. Especially since it hinges heavily on Ganon making a mistake, rather than being used in response to Ganon's tools to recover.

And Ike's U-air is only easy to land on Ganon if you waste your midair jump mindlessly when being juggled. Nothing Ike does to juggle beats jump and airdodge on reaction. It's not like Ganon's or Falcon's juggles where the opponent actually can't react to U-air and can be forced to reflexively airdodge. Ike can't force you to reflexively airdodge.

Ussi · Nov 10, 2010

No one's UpB is like Ike's, his up B first of all is VERY LONG vertical disjoint, the closest Up B to it is Kirby except Kirby's isn't a disjoint.

There is only so much you can react to, Ike can just walk off trying to induce an AD then footstool you out of AD with your 20 frames of vulnerablity.

If you are stubborn then Ike can really just go down, and aetherspike Ganon's attempt to UpB to the stage, if you try to Up B us, you put yourself at risk of missing.

Mid air jump > Airdodge = Easy Fsmash bait

You gotta process all this while trying to react to what Ike is gonna do to you. It's easier to just predict.

Also i would like to note that, while AD does last longer than Ike's nair, Ike can FF his nair to Jab while you are in your AD. If you try to FF your AD, you'll get hit by a nair that wasn't FF'd.

A2ZOMG · Nov 10, 2010

Melee Link's Up-B is actually very similar to Ike's Up-B. It outranges most onstage edgeguard attempts. Still easy to ledgedrop aerial edgeguard.

As for edgeguarding Ike, I proved here that people suck and need to get better:

Code:
Code:

Ledge invincibility: 1-46 Minimum Time on Ledge: 25 frames Maximum "usable" ledge grab invincibility: 21 ~Grounded Aether~ Hit: 18, 20-29, 30-38, 39, 46-57, 64-73, 74-77 SAF: 18-38 IASA: 110

The lowest hitbox of Aether is active on frame 18, and it takes about say...7 frames for the sword to reach about max height. So let's say you grab the ledge on frame 16-20. You will be stuck to the ledge as Aether reaches frame 41-45, which is about when Ike jumps upwards. By then, you are allowed to ledgedrop and abuse 21 frames of invincibility to gimp Ike with a ledgedrop reverse U-air. That is not hard to pull off at all.

When I say midair jump + airdodge beats all of Ike's juggles and edgeguards, it's with the assumption that you first observe him jumping, and then he grunts before his aerial comes out, and then you proceed to evade it. The only time Ike's aerials really should hit anyone in those positions are when they have expended jumps or if they mindlessly spam aerials after being hit. I'm not really worried about his ground options for trapping juggles. Ike pretty much has grab, or if he's extremely technical, perfectly spaced QDs.

Ussi · Nov 10, 2010

I'll start throwing out specially timed Ike grunts (in person) if people are really gonna start timing themselves to Ike's grunt.

EDIT: I'm done wasting Ganon's thread space when they should be discussing their next MU by now. It is opinions so no need to kill someone over it.

A2ZOMG · Nov 10, 2010

That's not the only tell on Ike's aerials. My point is you have more than enough time to easily react to what Ike does as he's juggling or edgeguarding you. His juggle traps and edgeguards really should only hit you if you DIed badly, mashed an aerial on reflex, or did something that made you end up wasting your midair jump. It's really not much unlike how Sonic's KO moves are easy to avoid through patience and reactions. Yes people do get hit in those specific situations, but it's almost always clearly due a mistake that could have been avoided, so it can't be considered reliable in matchup discussion.

Ganon or Falcon juggling with U-air on the other hand can be considered reliable, since the threat of it cannot be avoided on reaction, and the characters have an answer to cover the option used to avoid the juggle, or in some cases they can actually still punish the defensive option no matter what.

Fuujin · Nov 11, 2010

mfw ganonboards give Ike an easier MU ratio than Zelda.

Heartstring · Nov 11, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
That's not the only tell on Ike's aerials. My point is you have more than enough time to easily react to what Ike does as he's juggling or edgeguarding you. His juggle traps and edgeguards really should only hit you if you DIed badly, mashed an aerial on reflex, or did something that made you end up wasting your midair jump. It's really not much unlike how Sonic's KO moves are easy to avoid through patience and reactions. Yes people do get hit in those specific situations, but it's almost always clearly due a mistake that could have been avoided, so it can't be considered reliable in matchup discussion.

Ganon or Falcon juggling with U-air on the other hand can be considered reliable, since the threat of it cannot be avoided on reaction, and the characters have an answer to cover the option used to avoid the juggle, or in some cases they can actually still punish the defensive option no matter what.

its official, your a pro troll. lol with your inaccurate ike knowledge

bigbucks · Nov 11, 2010

Ad hominems ftw.

Each Ganon's personal MU-ratio 2010 - (Finished)

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Legend

Smash Journeyman

Smash Legend

King of Evil

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

King of Evil

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

King of Evil

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

King of Evil

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Smash Legend

Smash Journeyman

Information

Network