Ike's Juggling Game has much better priority than Ganon's,
but it's also much more predictable.
but it's also much more predictable.
Come again?
-
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Each Ganon's personal MU-ratio 2010 - (Finished)
- Thread starter Z1GMA
- Start date
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Go ahead and call me a troll, say I suck, etc. It only proves me more right when my arguments are not countered. But that's not the point of discussion. You can blame Kirk for me being correct. Your boards have all the frame data I need, and I am quite decent at using this character myself, since after all, both Ganon and Ike are heavily dependent on shenanigans.
Facts:
Ike's juggles and edgeguards are EASY to react to. Only hard to avoid if you waste your escape options mindlessly (or in teams!).
Ganondorf has the tools to juggle and edgeguard Ike more consistently than the other way around
As a result Ganondorf has the tools to set up KOs more easily than what Ike is capable of.
Ike's main significant advantage is having easier punishes when he shields or when Ganondorf spotdodges, which gives him an edge in damage dealing
Moving on:
VS
Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
VS Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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- Oct 13, 2007
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- Location
- RPV, California
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- SW 8400 1713 9427
Moving on:
VS
Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
A2ZOMG: 35/65
Ganon has a few decent advantages against Mario. Mario is fairly easy for Ganon to juggle and edgetrap. Outside of that, a Mario that knows how to space properly to avoid Ganon's Flame Choke and wizkick will generally give Ganondorf a lot of problems.
The main problem Ganon has against Mario is he really just doesn't have a very good answer to Mario's B-air due to his piss poor anti-air options. For the most part in midrange, Mario can get away with B-airs pretty freely and Ganon usually can't punish it. Really predictable SH B-air approaches can be sometimes beaten with psychic F-smashes, but if you whiff, Mario can hit you back with his longer ranged F-smash which can kill you at around 90-115% when up angled. For the most part Ganon can't really punish fullhop spaced B-airs or fullhop fireballs either. Mario's D-air and Jabs are also difficult for Ganon to deal with, since they are fast options and things that Ganon really just can't punish on shield. Mario's D-smash is also annoying since it's frame 5, and can lead to gimps if not DIed optimally, plus it's also difficult for Ganon to punish on block.
All Mario really needs to do to gimp Ganon in most situations is edgeguard with weak N-air, which hits rather horizontally and sets up for easy edgehogs. It's usually harder for Ganondorf to edgeguard Mario, although both characters can edgetrap each other for massive reward. Also it's common knowledge that Mario juggles and combos Ganon well, and he can also score kills with charged U-smash at around 125-130ish as long as he knows that his U-smash will at minimum trade with Ganon's options to break juggles.
Generally speaking, a Mario that doesn't know this matchup is probably easy for Ganon to beat, since when you're in control, you can juggle Mario easily with Flame Choke and U-air, and edgetrap his ledge jump for pretty massive reward. A Mario that knows how to stay in Ganon's blindspots while pressuring Ganon's defenses however is very frustrating for Ganon to deal with.
VS Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
A2ZOMG: 35/65
Ganon has a few decent advantages against Mario. Mario is fairly easy for Ganon to juggle and edgetrap. Outside of that, a Mario that knows how to space properly to avoid Ganon's Flame Choke and wizkick will generally give Ganondorf a lot of problems.
The main problem Ganon has against Mario is he really just doesn't have a very good answer to Mario's B-air due to his piss poor anti-air options. For the most part in midrange, Mario can get away with B-airs pretty freely and Ganon usually can't punish it. Really predictable SH B-air approaches can be sometimes beaten with psychic F-smashes, but if you whiff, Mario can hit you back with his longer ranged F-smash which can kill you at around 90-115% when up angled. For the most part Ganon can't really punish fullhop spaced B-airs or fullhop fireballs either. Mario's D-air and Jabs are also difficult for Ganon to deal with, since they are fast options and things that Ganon really just can't punish on shield. Mario's D-smash is also annoying since it's frame 5, and can lead to gimps if not DIed optimally, plus it's also difficult for Ganon to punish on block.
All Mario really needs to do to gimp Ganon in most situations is edgeguard with weak N-air, which hits rather horizontally and sets up for easy edgehogs. It's usually harder for Ganondorf to edgeguard Mario, although both characters can edgetrap each other for massive reward. Also it's common knowledge that Mario juggles and combos Ganon well, and he can also score kills with charged U-smash at around 125-130ish as long as he knows that his U-smash will at minimum trade with Ganon's options to break juggles.
Generally speaking, a Mario that doesn't know this matchup is probably easy for Ganon to beat, since when you're in control, you can juggle Mario easily with Flame Choke and U-air, and edgetrap his ledge jump for pretty massive reward. A Mario that knows how to stay in Ganon's blindspots while pressuring Ganon's defenses however is very frustrating for Ganon to deal with.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
i said nothing of your frama data being wrong, however your ideals of ike playstyle just cause mass facepalmage
Heartstring
Smash Legend
fair enough, i got ninja'd anywayz XD
45:55
we can outrange mario all day, in return he gets a troublesome projectile. you cna barg through them with DA, but get punished afterwards.
this matchup is all abotu controlling centre stage, as if mario gets you off, you wont be comnig back.
figure out how the mario uses the fireballs, if he approaches with them, DA and go past/through him, if he retreats with them simply walk and shield. dtilt and u-air are going to be pretty much everything in ths matchup.
rather than going into that kinda detail, ill jsut say its all about hitting him while avoiding the fireballs and grabs. hit and run basically (although with ganon's run speed its hit and jog)
With proper DI, Ganon doesn't die until 134% or 135% from Mario's Sweet Spotted Fsmash. (Center of FD... Training Mode Damage).
I just tried it.
And that's when it's fresh!
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
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- 7,336
Moving on:
VS
Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
A2ZOMG: 35/65
Ganon has a few decent advantages against Mario. Mario is fairly easy for Ganon to juggle and edgetrap. Outside of that, a Mario that knows how to space properly to avoid Ganon's Flame Choke and wizkick will generally give Ganondorf a lot of problems.
The main problem Ganon has against Mario is he really just doesn't have a very good answer to Mario's B-air due to his piss poor anti-air options. For the most part in midrange, Mario can get away with B-airs pretty freely and Ganon usually can't punish it. Really predictable SH B-air approaches can be sometimes beaten with psychic F-smashes, but if you whiff, Mario can hit you back with his longer ranged F-smash which can kill you at around 90-115% when up angled. For the most part Ganon can't really punish fullhop spaced B-airs or fullhop fireballs either. Mario's D-air and Jabs are also difficult for Ganon to deal with, since they are fast options and things that Ganon really just can't punish on shield. Mario's D-smash is also annoying since it's frame 5, and can lead to gimps if not DIed optimally, plus it's also difficult for Ganon to punish on block.
All Mario really needs to do to gimp Ganon in most situations is edgeguard with weak N-air, which hits rather horizontally and sets up for easy edgehogs. It's usually harder for Ganondorf to edgeguard Mario, although both characters can edgetrap each other for massive reward. Also it's common knowledge that Mario juggles and combos Ganon well, and he can also score kills with charged U-smash at around 125-130ish as long as he knows that his U-smash will at minimum trade with Ganon's options to break juggles.
Generally speaking, a Mario that doesn't know this matchup is probably easy for Ganon to beat, since when you're in control, you can juggle Mario easily with Flame Choke and U-air, and edgetrap his ledge jump for pretty massive reward. A Mario that knows how to stay in Ganon's blindspots while pressuring Ganon's defenses however is very frustrating for Ganon to deal with.
Supreme Dirt: 50:50
Mario is fast, has a cape, and in general seems irritating until you realize one thing: Mario can't actually kill you. He has to rely entirely on punishing our RCO lag with an FSmash, or more likely, gimping us to actually kill us. Here's the thing: You should never be getting gimped by the cape. Ever. It's very obvious when a Mario will do it. You just have to learn how to tell which gimp they're going for, and play accordingly. Mario is one of those matchups where spacing is pretty important. Remember, Mario has a SS FSmash to rival our own. Don't roll around him, DSmash is his second best kill move, though it kills us at 130+. Flame Choking is pretty effective, just remember if you keep doing it you will get beat.
Our ability to actually kill far outclasses Mario. He has easily punishable RCO lag, and if he's on the ground he's going to get hit. An aerial Mario might seem hard to deal with, just remember that UAir is a godsend. Don't get hit by his UAir at low percents, you'll get juggled.
All that said, the most important thing to remember is that Mario is a horrible character with a few redeeming tools. It goes without saying, but learn their patterns, in my experience, Mario mains tend to fall into the same patterns against us.
VS Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
A2ZOMG: 35/65
Ganon has a few decent advantages against Mario. Mario is fairly easy for Ganon to juggle and edgetrap. Outside of that, a Mario that knows how to space properly to avoid Ganon's Flame Choke and wizkick will generally give Ganondorf a lot of problems.
The main problem Ganon has against Mario is he really just doesn't have a very good answer to Mario's B-air due to his piss poor anti-air options. For the most part in midrange, Mario can get away with B-airs pretty freely and Ganon usually can't punish it. Really predictable SH B-air approaches can be sometimes beaten with psychic F-smashes, but if you whiff, Mario can hit you back with his longer ranged F-smash which can kill you at around 90-115% when up angled. For the most part Ganon can't really punish fullhop spaced B-airs or fullhop fireballs either. Mario's D-air and Jabs are also difficult for Ganon to deal with, since they are fast options and things that Ganon really just can't punish on shield. Mario's D-smash is also annoying since it's frame 5, and can lead to gimps if not DIed optimally, plus it's also difficult for Ganon to punish on block.
All Mario really needs to do to gimp Ganon in most situations is edgeguard with weak N-air, which hits rather horizontally and sets up for easy edgehogs. It's usually harder for Ganondorf to edgeguard Mario, although both characters can edgetrap each other for massive reward. Also it's common knowledge that Mario juggles and combos Ganon well, and he can also score kills with charged U-smash at around 125-130ish as long as he knows that his U-smash will at minimum trade with Ganon's options to break juggles.
Generally speaking, a Mario that doesn't know this matchup is probably easy for Ganon to beat, since when you're in control, you can juggle Mario easily with Flame Choke and U-air, and edgetrap his ledge jump for pretty massive reward. A Mario that knows how to stay in Ganon's blindspots while pressuring Ganon's defenses however is very frustrating for Ganon to deal with.
Supreme Dirt: 50:50
Mario is fast, has a cape, and in general seems irritating until you realize one thing: Mario can't actually kill you. He has to rely entirely on punishing our RCO lag with an FSmash, or more likely, gimping us to actually kill us. Here's the thing: You should never be getting gimped by the cape. Ever. It's very obvious when a Mario will do it. You just have to learn how to tell which gimp they're going for, and play accordingly. Mario is one of those matchups where spacing is pretty important. Remember, Mario has a SS FSmash to rival our own. Don't roll around him, DSmash is his second best kill move, though it kills us at 130+. Flame Choking is pretty effective, just remember if you keep doing it you will get beat.
Our ability to actually kill far outclasses Mario. He has easily punishable RCO lag, and if he's on the ground he's going to get hit. An aerial Mario might seem hard to deal with, just remember that UAir is a godsend. Don't get hit by his UAir at low percents, you'll get juggled.
All that said, the most important thing to remember is that Mario is a horrible character with a few redeeming tools. It goes without saying, but learn their patterns, in my experience, Mario mains tend to fall into the same patterns against us.
VS Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
A2ZOMG: 35/65
Ganon has a few decent advantages against Mario. Mario is fairly easy for Ganon to juggle and edgetrap. Outside of that, a Mario that knows how to space properly to avoid Ganon's Flame Choke and wizkick will generally give Ganondorf a lot of problems.
The main problem Ganon has against Mario is he really just doesn't have a very good answer to Mario's B-air due to his piss poor anti-air options. For the most part in midrange, Mario can get away with B-airs pretty freely and Ganon usually can't punish it. Really predictable SH B-air approaches can be sometimes beaten with psychic F-smashes, but if you whiff, Mario can hit you back with his longer ranged F-smash which can kill you at around 90-115% when up angled. For the most part Ganon can't really punish fullhop spaced B-airs or fullhop fireballs either. Mario's D-air and Jabs are also difficult for Ganon to deal with, since they are fast options and things that Ganon really just can't punish on shield. Mario's D-smash is also annoying since it's frame 5, and can lead to gimps if not DIed optimally, plus it's also difficult for Ganon to punish on block.
All Mario really needs to do to gimp Ganon in most situations is edgeguard with weak N-air, which hits rather horizontally and sets up for easy edgehogs. It's usually harder for Ganondorf to edgeguard Mario, although both characters can edgetrap each other for massive reward. Also it's common knowledge that Mario juggles and combos Ganon well, and he can also score kills with charged U-smash at around 125-130ish as long as he knows that his U-smash will at minimum trade with Ganon's options to break juggles.
Generally speaking, a Mario that doesn't know this matchup is probably easy for Ganon to beat, since when you're in control, you can juggle Mario easily with Flame Choke and U-air, and edgetrap his ledge jump for pretty massive reward. A Mario that knows how to stay in Ganon's blindspots while pressuring Ganon's defenses however is very frustrating for Ganon to deal with.
G-P: 45:55
We can outrange mario all day, in return he gets a troublesome projectile. you cna barg through them with DA, but get punished afterwards.
this matchup is all abotu controlling centre stage, as if mario gets you off, you wont be comnig back.
figure out how the mario uses the fireballs, if he approaches with them, DA and go past/through him, if he retreats with them simply walk and shield. dtilt and u-air are going to be pretty much everything in ths matchup.
rather than going into that kinda detail, ill jsut say its all about hitting him while avoiding the fireballs and grabs. hit and run basically (although with ganon's run speed its hit and jog)
Supreme Dirt: 50:50
Mario is fast, has a cape, and in general seems irritating until you realize one thing: Mario can't actually kill you. He has to rely entirely on punishing our RCO lag with an FSmash, or more likely, gimping us to actually kill us. Here's the thing: You should never be getting gimped by the cape. Ever. It's very obvious when a Mario will do it. You just have to learn how to tell which gimp they're going for, and play accordingly. Mario is one of those matchups where spacing is pretty important. Remember, Mario has a SS FSmash to rival our own. Don't roll around him, DSmash is his second best kill move, though it kills us at 130+. Flame Choking is pretty effective, just remember if you keep doing it you will get beat.
Our ability to actually kill far outclasses Mario. He has easily punishable RCO lag, and if he's on the ground he's going to get hit. An aerial Mario might seem hard to deal with, just remember that UAir is a godsend. Don't get hit by his UAir at low percents, you'll get juggled.
All that said, the most important thing to remember is that Mario is a horrible character with a few redeeming tools. It goes without saying, but learn their patterns, in my experience, Mario mains tend to fall into the same patterns against us.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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The way Mario usually should be implementing F-smash, it generally can be charged due to the sheer range, so 90-115% isn't unreasonable in an actual match.
And unless my calculations are wrong, fresh and outside of Training mode from the center of FD with perfect DI, that KO percent for uncharged F-smash is actually 128%, since fresh moves vs moves in training mode is a 1.05x damage/knockback multiplier.
I'm betting that most of the people here haven't really played a Mario that knows this matchup. Hell, I destroy a lot of Mario players with my Ganon to be honest, but against other Ganons, I usually beat them solidly in this matchup. Honestly, what answers does Ganon have against Mario's B-air? It can be used SHed or fullhopped safely, and Mario's fullhop fireball camping is another thing Ganon really can't punish. Given that Mario can actually kill Ganondorf really early by baiting a whiff with the leanback of F-smash, he doesn't actually have trouble KOing Ganon. Just most Mario players use their KO moves completely wrong. Also I kill Ganons and Snakes all the time with Up-smash at around 130% by simply reading their landing and charging U-smash.
Generally speaking if you think Mario has trouble KOing, you probably haven't played very good Marios, since I'll guarantee you that the vast majority of them unnecessarily stale BOTH D-smash and U-smash on the same stock. KOing is far from Mario's biggest problem, especially in matchups where it's easy for him to land Up-smash.
More shocking is you lack of real counters to my statement, despite you being obviously more experienced with Ike than I am. Ike has certain options. Nobody is denying that. The point remains is that there are clearly good answers to countering most of the options people say Ike usually has, and I said little to nothing about how Ike should actually play, but how you can counter what he does as Ganon. If you're representing the Ike perspective, you should have more answers as to how Ike can force Ganon into unreactable situations where he has to make unfavorable commitments that limit his options. The people who say Ike juggles Ganon easily otherwise have no business participating in a matchup discussion. I already explained for everyone when and how Ike is able to juggle Ganon at any rate.
Next time you post, I expect you to demonstrate better knowledge of how threat vs execution works.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
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Whoops, missed GP's post.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
dude just hush, up there it says personal MU ratio, not colabarative MU ratio.
yes ike doesnt juggle ganon, ike doesnt juggle anyone. but thats not for discussion here
Claire Diviner
President
VS Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
A2ZOMG: 35/65
Ganon has a few decent advantages against Mario. Mario is fairly easy for Ganon to juggle and edgetrap. Outside of that, a Mario that knows how to space properly to avoid Ganon's Flame Choke and wizkick will generally give Ganondorf a lot of problems.
The main problem Ganon has against Mario is he really just doesn't have a very good answer to Mario's B-air due to his piss poor anti-air options. For the most part in midrange, Mario can get away with B-airs pretty freely and Ganon usually can't punish it. Really predictable SH B-air approaches can be sometimes beaten with psychic F-smashes, but if you whiff, Mario can hit you back with his longer ranged F-smash which can kill you at around 90-115% when up angled. For the most part Ganon can't really punish fullhop spaced B-airs or fullhop fireballs either. Mario's D-air and Jabs are also difficult for Ganon to deal with, since they are fast options and things that Ganon really just can't punish on shield. Mario's D-smash is also annoying since it's frame 5, and can lead to gimps if not DIed optimally, plus it's also difficult for Ganon to punish on block.
All Mario really needs to do to gimp Ganon in most situations is edgeguard with weak N-air, which hits rather horizontally and sets up for easy edgehogs. It's usually harder for Ganondorf to edgeguard Mario, although both characters can edgetrap each other for massive reward. Also it's common knowledge that Mario juggles and combos Ganon well, and he can also score kills with charged U-smash at around 125-130ish as long as he knows that his U-smash will at minimum trade with Ganon's options to break juggles.
Generally speaking, a Mario that doesn't know this matchup is probably easy for Ganon to beat, since when you're in control, you can juggle Mario easily with Flame Choke and U-air, and edgetrap his ledge jump for pretty massive reward. A Mario that knows how to stay in Ganon's blindspots while pressuring Ganon's defenses however is very frustrating for Ganon to deal with.
G-P: 45:55
We can outrange mario all day, in return he gets a troublesome projectile. you cna barg through them with DA, but get punished afterwards.
this matchup is all abotu controlling centre stage, as if mario gets you off, you wont be comnig back.
figure out how the mario uses the fireballs, if he approaches with them, DA and go past/through him, if he retreats with them simply walk and shield. dtilt and u-air are going to be pretty much everything in ths matchup.
rather than going into that kinda detail, ill jsut say its all about hitting him while avoiding the fireballs and grabs. hit and run basically (although with ganon's run speed its hit and jog)
Supreme Dirt: 50:50
Mario is fast, has a cape, and in general seems irritating until you realize one thing: Mario can't actually kill you. He has to rely entirely on punishing our RCO lag with an FSmash, or more likely, gimping us to actually kill us. Here's the thing: You should never be getting gimped by the cape. Ever. It's very obvious when a Mario will do it. You just have to learn how to tell which gimp they're going for, and play accordingly. Mario is one of those matchups where spacing is pretty important. Remember, Mario has a SS FSmash to rival our own. Don't roll around him, DSmash is his second best kill move, though it kills us at 130+. Flame Choking is pretty effective, just remember if you keep doing it you will get beat.
Our ability to actually kill far outclasses Mario. He has easily punishable RCO lag, and if he's on the ground he's going to get hit. An aerial Mario might seem hard to deal with, just remember that UAir is a godsend. Don't get hit by his UAir at low percents, you'll get juggled.
All that said, the most important thing to remember is that Mario is a horrible character with a few redeeming tools. It goes without saying, but learn their patterns, in my experience, Mario mains tend to fall into the same patterns against us.
Sol Diviner: 40:60
Basically, everything Supreme Dirt mentioned was what I would've said. The only thing preventing a better MU ratio for me is that a defensive Mario that keeps his distance while spamming fireballs is a pain to approach and punish. We can certainly beat aggressive Marios, but once said Mario ups his defensive game and plays real safe, that's when we'll have quite the adversity to try to tackle... at least from my experience anyway.
Clai
Smash Lord
Having played Kirinblaze several times, I know from first hand experience that Mario is a d!ck and my match-up ratio is roughly the same as yours.
My match-up analysis will come whenever I get to it, but seriously, Mario is *ugh*
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
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A2, just so that you know I play Douhneill a lot, seeing as he's a friend, and he knows the matchup pretty **** well.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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I wonder how well he knows the matchup. =P
Honestly if your name isn't Boss, Vato, Kirin, Pierce, or Flameleon, (I'm probably forgetting a name here or there, but w/e) it's hard for me to really believe that your Mario knows anything (and I did try to check some 5 month old vids of Douhniell...they were the definition of unimpressive). That's just the facts. Mario unlike Ganon is an overall decent character who has a fairly high learning curve, and there's really only a few players who really understand how to use his tools correctly.
Honestly if your name isn't Boss, Vato, Kirin, Pierce, or Flameleon, (I'm probably forgetting a name here or there, but w/e) it's hard for me to really believe that your Mario knows anything (and I did try to check some 5 month old vids of Douhniell...they were the definition of unimpressive). That's just the facts. Mario unlike Ganon is an overall decent character who has a fairly high learning curve, and there's really only a few players who really understand how to use his tools correctly.
Claire Diviner
President
Alright, guys, are we gonna give personal input on Mario MUs, or have a godd*mn argument of how "great" Mario/Ganon is over one another? Last thing we need are potential flame wars to go off over characters and the players behind them.
Clai
Smash Lord
VS Z1GMA: 45 - 55
Comment: It's one thing getting gimped by MK, but if you get gimped by Mario,
you're doing something wrong.
If we stay focused and deal with his Fire Balls properly,
he's gonna have a hard time opening us up.
We beat him when he's too close to Fire Ball us.
Also, his KO-moves are pretty weak on Ganon.
A2ZOMG: 35/65
Ganon has a few decent advantages against Mario. Mario is fairly easy for Ganon to juggle and edgetrap. Outside of that, a Mario that knows how to space properly to avoid Ganon's Flame Choke and wizkick will generally give Ganondorf a lot of problems.
The main problem Ganon has against Mario is he really just doesn't have a very good answer to Mario's B-air due to his piss poor anti-air options. For the most part in midrange, Mario can get away with B-airs pretty freely and Ganon usually can't punish it. Really predictable SH B-air approaches can be sometimes beaten with psychic F-smashes, but if you whiff, Mario can hit you back with his longer ranged F-smash which can kill you at around 90-115% when up angled. For the most part Ganon can't really punish fullhop spaced B-airs or fullhop fireballs either. Mario's D-air and Jabs are also difficult for Ganon to deal with, since they are fast options and things that Ganon really just can't punish on shield. Mario's D-smash is also annoying since it's frame 5, and can lead to gimps if not DIed optimally, plus it's also difficult for Ganon to punish on block.
All Mario really needs to do to gimp Ganon in most situations is edgeguard with weak N-air, which hits rather horizontally and sets up for easy edgehogs. It's usually harder for Ganondorf to edgeguard Mario, although both characters can edgetrap each other for massive reward. Also it's common knowledge that Mario juggles and combos Ganon well, and he can also score kills with charged U-smash at around 125-130ish as long as he knows that his U-smash will at minimum trade with Ganon's options to break juggles.
Generally speaking, a Mario that doesn't know this matchup is probably easy for Ganon to beat, since when you're in control, you can juggle Mario easily with Flame Choke and U-air, and edgetrap his ledge jump for pretty massive reward. A Mario that knows how to stay in Ganon's blindspots while pressuring Ganon's defenses however is very frustrating for Ganon to deal with.
G-P: 45:55
We can outrange mario all day, in return he gets a troublesome projectile. you cna barg through them with DA, but get punished afterwards.
this matchup is all abotu controlling centre stage, as if mario gets you off, you wont be comnig back.
figure out how the mario uses the fireballs, if he approaches with them, DA and go past/through him, if he retreats with them simply walk and shield. dtilt and u-air are going to be pretty much everything in ths matchup.
rather than going into that kinda detail, ill jsut say its all about hitting him while avoiding the fireballs and grabs. hit and run basically (although with ganon's run speed its hit and jog)
Supreme Dirt: 50:50
Mario is fast, has a cape, and in general seems irritating until you realize one thing: Mario can't actually kill you. He has to rely entirely on punishing our RCO lag with an FSmash, or more likely, gimping us to actually kill us. Here's the thing: You should never be getting gimped by the cape. Ever. It's very obvious when a Mario will do it. You just have to learn how to tell which gimp they're going for, and play accordingly. Mario is one of those matchups where spacing is pretty important. Remember, Mario has a SS FSmash to rival our own. Don't roll around him, DSmash is his second best kill move, though it kills us at 130+. Flame Choking is pretty effective, just remember if you keep doing it you will get beat.
Our ability to actually kill far outclasses Mario. He has easily punishable RCO lag, and if he's on the ground he's going to get hit. An aerial Mario might seem hard to deal with, just remember that UAir is a godsend. Don't get hit by his UAir at low percents, you'll get juggled.
All that said, the most important thing to remember is that Mario is a horrible character with a few redeeming tools. It goes without saying, but learn their patterns, in my experience, Mario mains tend to fall into the same patterns against us.
Sol Diviner: 40:60
Basically, everything Supreme Dirt mentioned was what I would've said. The only thing preventing a better MU ratio for me is that a defensive Mario that keeps his distance while spamming fireballs is a pain to approach and punish. We can certainly beat aggressive Marios, but once said Mario ups his defensive game and plays real safe, that's when we'll have quite the adversity to try to tackle... at least from my experience anyway.
Clai: 35-> Ganon Mario <- 65
While Mario is in general a middling character that doesn't have too much in the realm of options, he is a very, very frustrating matchup for Ganondorf. The reason, as A2Zomg astutely pointed out, is that Mario can pressure Ganondorf seeming at will and Ganondorf can't do much about it in the slightest. Mario's B-air has decent horizontal range, a good fall speed and a very quick landing, meaning that Ganon's not punishing it OOS as long as the Mario knows his spacing. Ganondorf can create plenty of periolous situations for Mario, which is why the matchup isn't further in Mario's favor, but Mario can too easily pick at Ganon's blind spots because Ganondorf jumps way too slowly to combat Mario in the air, even though Ganon has the superior aerials. Of course, being predictable in the air just lets Mario approach slowly and prepare an U-Smash without trouble, so Ganon has to watch out in that regard as well. Overall, fighting Mario is just not fun for Ganon. Keep an eye on your options and blind spts at all times, because that's where Mario is aiming to strike.
Ussi
Smash Legend
Except you don't have a queen when your Ganon
Claire Diviner
President
Nah, Ganon's too bada** to have a queen. Instead, he has a harem of concubines at his beck and call.
True, but you've got one hell of a horse.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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The matchup is fun when you're in control and juggling/Flame Choking Mario. You get a lot of reward from that in this matchup.
Aside from the fact Ganon suffers from a lot of abuses, I think Mario fundamentally counters Ganon's main strategies. Just Mario's zoning options and ability to camp with fullhop fireball/B-air is something that Ganon just really doesn't like, combined with his lack of safe approaches. Similarly ignoring abuses, Peach, Jiggs, and the ICs just have a way of fundamentally picking Ganon apart and taking away most of his options, the former two being hard to anti-air, and the ICs have desynched bull**** that forces you to jump. These are just characters that Ganon really can't space against very well.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
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Douhneill's improved a lot in the past 5 months, A2. I don't think he has any recent vids up though, I think he's trying to focus on college right now.
Gonna agree with you there. Let's not bring ICs into this, they're just a bull**** MU. Nevermind Meta Knight, let's ban Ice Climbers.
Mario is one of those characters you have to change up the way you think to beat them. If you go in thinking you can just outpower them, you will lose. I learned that the hard way against Douhneill, almost always falling into something ridiculous, like fireball => UThrow => UAir => UAir ... => Cape => Footstool => Mario recovering. He seemed to enjoy getting as many capes in as possible when I was in special fall. I still strongly believe this MU is even though.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
G~P: 30:70
lucas can jsut create a wall of high priority, high range (but low damage) moves to stop us from even getting close to him for the whole 8 minutes if he wants to. and with the aid of flash jumping he is insanely hard to gimp too. an insane amount of prediction would be needed to get into his bubble, and even then his short hop n-airs will shut down most things we try to do. uphill battle all the way
lucas can jsut create a wall of high priority, high range (but low damage) moves to stop us from even getting close to him for the whole 8 minutes if he wants to. and with the aid of flash jumping he is insanely hard to gimp too. an insane amount of prediction would be needed to get into his bubble, and even then his short hop n-airs will shut down most things we try to do. uphill battle all the way
Claire Diviner
President
Moving on:
Vs
Z1GMA: 35 - 65
Comment: Lucas is annoying in this MU.
He'll poke and deal small amounts of damage consistantly with his disjoints,
which interrupts most of our actions.
G~P: 30:70
lucas can jsut create a wall of high priority, high range (but low damage) moves to stop us from even getting close to him for the whole 8 minutes if he wants to. and with the aid of flash jumping he is insanely hard to gimp too. an insane amount of prediction would be needed to get into his bubble, and even then his short hop n-airs will shut down most things we try to do. uphill battle all the way
Sol Diviner: 30:70
I don't have a lot of experience with Lucas, but the few matches with an acquaintance I've had has shown that Lucas is a major pain. His aerials comes out fast, and have disjointed hitboxes that makes punishing a bit difficult. Worse still, is once he gets us off the stage, there's almost no coming back, as he can harrass our recovery with his PK Thunder, which essentially spells a death sentence on us. The only thing preventing the match-up from being any worse is our good aerials, range, and ability to gimp the hell out of him when provided the opportunity, though keep in mind that a recovering Lucas can fight back against our gimps.
Vs Z1GMA: 35 - 65
Comment: Lucas is annoying in this MU.
He'll poke and deal small amounts of damage consistantly with his disjoints,
which interrupts most of our actions.
G~P: 30:70
lucas can jsut create a wall of high priority, high range (but low damage) moves to stop us from even getting close to him for the whole 8 minutes if he wants to. and with the aid of flash jumping he is insanely hard to gimp too. an insane amount of prediction would be needed to get into his bubble, and even then his short hop n-airs will shut down most things we try to do. uphill battle all the way
Sol Diviner: 30:70
I don't have a lot of experience with Lucas, but the few matches with an acquaintance I've had has shown that Lucas is a major pain. His aerials comes out fast, and have disjointed hitboxes that makes punishing a bit difficult. Worse still, is once he gets us off the stage, there's almost no coming back, as he can harrass our recovery with his PK Thunder, which essentially spells a death sentence on us. The only thing preventing the match-up from being any worse is our good aerials, range, and ability to gimp the hell out of him when provided the opportunity, though keep in mind that a recovering Lucas can fight back against our gimps.
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Z1GMA: 35 - 65
Comment: Lucas is annoying in this MU.
He'll poke and deal small amounts of damage consistantly with his disjoints,
which interrupts most of our actions.
G~P: 30:70
lucas can jsut create a wall of high priority, high range (but low damage) moves to stop us from even getting close to him for the whole 8 minutes if he wants to. and with the aid of flash jumping he is insanely hard to gimp too. an insane amount of prediction would be needed to get into his bubble, and even then his short hop n-airs will shut down most things we try to do. uphill battle all the way
Sol Diviner: 30:70
I don't have a lot of experience with Lucas, but the few matches with an acquaintance I've had has shown that Lucas is a major pain. His aerials comes out fast, and have disjointed hitboxes that makes punishing a bit difficult. Worse still, is once he gets us off the stage, there's almost no coming back, as he can harrass our recovery with his PK Thunder, which essentially spells a death sentence on us. The only thing preventing the match-up from being any worse is our good aerials, range, and ability to gimp the hell out of him when provided the opportunity, though keep in mind that a recovering Lucas can fight back against our gimps.
A2ZOMG: 40/60
Lucas can space you a lot, but that's pretty much all he can do. If you play carefully, this character really can't set up a KO on you very easily. He lacks a good juggle game, and most of his edgeguards aren't very threatening. His grab is a blessing and a curse for him in this matchup. Some of your less well spaced stuff can be easy for him to shieldgrab, but at the same time, he really doesn't have any business pressuring you with his grab.
If he does PK Thunder to edgeguard you, you can cancel it with an aerial almost all the time, and unlike Ness's PK Thunder, it really doesn't trap airdodges all THAT consistently. With that in mind, how does Lucas KO you? Basically he waits for you to make a spacing mistake that he can hit with a Smash (or perhaps his D-air tech trap). If you don't do anything really unnecessary, he can have a hard time getting that essential hit in.
Plus, rolling away from him is stupidly safe, especially given that your back roll is above average. He can't chase you down with grab since it's too slow and only lasts 1 frame. PK Fire doesn't reach fast enough if done on reaction to a roll. His Dash Attack is slow. and his N-air final hit doesn't lead to anything. With that in mind while Lucas can outspace you, you have little reason to be worried about it while you're playing patiently. Take your opportunities with your better U-air, longer range tilts, and Flame Choke carefully, and this matchup shouldn't be too much of a hassle.
Comment: Lucas is annoying in this MU.
He'll poke and deal small amounts of damage consistantly with his disjoints,
which interrupts most of our actions.
G~P: 30:70
lucas can jsut create a wall of high priority, high range (but low damage) moves to stop us from even getting close to him for the whole 8 minutes if he wants to. and with the aid of flash jumping he is insanely hard to gimp too. an insane amount of prediction would be needed to get into his bubble, and even then his short hop n-airs will shut down most things we try to do. uphill battle all the way
Sol Diviner: 30:70
I don't have a lot of experience with Lucas, but the few matches with an acquaintance I've had has shown that Lucas is a major pain. His aerials comes out fast, and have disjointed hitboxes that makes punishing a bit difficult. Worse still, is once he gets us off the stage, there's almost no coming back, as he can harrass our recovery with his PK Thunder, which essentially spells a death sentence on us. The only thing preventing the match-up from being any worse is our good aerials, range, and ability to gimp the hell out of him when provided the opportunity, though keep in mind that a recovering Lucas can fight back against our gimps.
A2ZOMG: 40/60
Lucas can space you a lot, but that's pretty much all he can do. If you play carefully, this character really can't set up a KO on you very easily. He lacks a good juggle game, and most of his edgeguards aren't very threatening. His grab is a blessing and a curse for him in this matchup. Some of your less well spaced stuff can be easy for him to shieldgrab, but at the same time, he really doesn't have any business pressuring you with his grab.
If he does PK Thunder to edgeguard you, you can cancel it with an aerial almost all the time, and unlike Ness's PK Thunder, it really doesn't trap airdodges all THAT consistently. With that in mind, how does Lucas KO you? Basically he waits for you to make a spacing mistake that he can hit with a Smash (or perhaps his D-air tech trap). If you don't do anything really unnecessary, he can have a hard time getting that essential hit in.
Plus, rolling away from him is stupidly safe, especially given that your back roll is above average. He can't chase you down with grab since it's too slow and only lasts 1 frame. PK Fire doesn't reach fast enough if done on reaction to a roll. His Dash Attack is slow. and his N-air final hit doesn't lead to anything. With that in mind while Lucas can outspace you, you have little reason to be worried about it while you're playing patiently. Take your opportunities with your better U-air, longer range tilts, and Flame Choke carefully, and this matchup shouldn't be too much of a hassle.
Moving on:
Vs 
Z1GMA: 40 - 60
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Vs Z1GMA: 40 - 60
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Claire Diviner
President
Moving on:
Vs
Z1GMA: 40 - 60
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Sol Diviner: 45:55
Ness isn't too much of a worry for Ganondorf compared to Lucas. Be wary that Ness's PK Fire can set you up for more annoying Ness shenanigans if you're not careful. Ness is also stupidly easy to gimp, which makes life easier for Ganon. Other than Ness's grabs, PK Fire, Fsmash, and Fair, Ness is a match-up that isn't much of an obstacle for the King of Evil.
Vs Z1GMA: 40 - 60
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Sol Diviner: 45:55
Ness isn't too much of a worry for Ganondorf compared to Lucas. Be wary that Ness's PK Fire can set you up for more annoying Ness shenanigans if you're not careful. Ness is also stupidly easy to gimp, which makes life easier for Ganon. Other than Ness's grabs, PK Fire, Fsmash, and Fair, Ness is a match-up that isn't much of an obstacle for the King of Evil.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
Z1GMA: 40 - 60
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Sol Diviner: 45:55
Ness isn't too much of a worry for Ganondorf compared to Lucas. Be wary that Ness's PK Fire can set you up for more annoying Ness shenanigans if you're not careful. Ness is also stupidly easy to gimp, which makes life easier for Ganon. Other than Ness's grabs, PK Fire, Fsmash, and Fair, Ness is a match-up that isn't much of an obstacle for the King of Evil.
G~P: 40:60
cant space us as much as lucas can, yet the playstyle is similar enough, be careful of his godlike f-air and various other disjointed attacks, also take extreme caution when edgeguarding as getting the timing wrong while trying to gimp him could lead to a lost stock surprisingly early.
make sure to avoid sheilding his pkfire as the lasting effect will literally burn your shield away and he will be able to grab you while doing this.
ganon does however have enough moves that outrange ness to cinsider this a lot closer than lucas, whom has a much easier time keeping ganon away
whle im here, can people tell me how to do the cool little pictures of the characters heads?
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Sol Diviner: 45:55
Ness isn't too much of a worry for Ganondorf compared to Lucas. Be wary that Ness's PK Fire can set you up for more annoying Ness shenanigans if you're not careful. Ness is also stupidly easy to gimp, which makes life easier for Ganon. Other than Ness's grabs, PK Fire, Fsmash, and Fair, Ness is a match-up that isn't much of an obstacle for the King of Evil.
G~P: 40:60
cant space us as much as lucas can, yet the playstyle is similar enough, be careful of his godlike f-air and various other disjointed attacks, also take extreme caution when edgeguarding as getting the timing wrong while trying to gimp him could lead to a lost stock surprisingly early.
make sure to avoid sheilding his pkfire as the lasting effect will literally burn your shield away and he will be able to grab you while doing this.
ganon does however have enough moves that outrange ness to cinsider this a lot closer than lucas, whom has a much easier time keeping ganon away
whle im here, can people tell me how to do the cool little pictures of the characters heads?
T.testLP
Smash Cadet
I believe you have to enter :Character name:
Such as :GANONDORF: on lower case looks like this:
Such as :GANONDORF: on lower case looks like this:
Tonsana
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2008
- Messages
- 175
Z1GMA: 40 - 60
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Sol Diviner: 45:55
Ness isn't too much of a worry for Ganondorf compared to Lucas. Be wary that Ness's PK Fire can set you up for more annoying Ness shenanigans if you're not careful. Ness is also stupidly easy to gimp, which makes life easier for Ganon. Other than Ness's grabs, PK Fire, Fsmash, and Fair, Ness is a match-up that isn't much of an obstacle for the King of Evil.
G~P: 40:60
cant space us as much as lucas can, yet the playstyle is similar enough, be careful of his godlike f-air and various other disjointed attacks, also take extreme caution when edgeguarding as getting the timing wrong while trying to gimp him could lead to a lost stock surprisingly early.
make sure to avoid sheilding his pkfire as the lasting effect will literally burn your shield away and he will be able to grab you while doing this.
ganon does however have enough moves that outrange ness to cinsider this a lot closer than lucas, whom has a much easier time keeping ganon away
whle im here, can people tell me how to do the cool little pictures of the characters heads?
Tonsana: 40-60
Ness will backthrow you. That is all...
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Sol Diviner: 45:55
Ness isn't too much of a worry for Ganondorf compared to Lucas. Be wary that Ness's PK Fire can set you up for more annoying Ness shenanigans if you're not careful. Ness is also stupidly easy to gimp, which makes life easier for Ganon. Other than Ness's grabs, PK Fire, Fsmash, and Fair, Ness is a match-up that isn't much of an obstacle for the King of Evil.
G~P: 40:60
cant space us as much as lucas can, yet the playstyle is similar enough, be careful of his godlike f-air and various other disjointed attacks, also take extreme caution when edgeguarding as getting the timing wrong while trying to gimp him could lead to a lost stock surprisingly early.
make sure to avoid sheilding his pkfire as the lasting effect will literally burn your shield away and he will be able to grab you while doing this.
ganon does however have enough moves that outrange ness to cinsider this a lot closer than lucas, whom has a much easier time keeping ganon away
whle im here, can people tell me how to do the cool little pictures of the characters heads?
Tonsana: 40-60
Ness will backthrow you. That is all...
Heartstring
Smash Legend
someone played miles too often...
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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- Oct 13, 2007
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- 12,542
- Location
- RPV, California
- NNID
- A2ZOMG
- Switch FC
- SW 8400 1713 9427
Z1GMA: 40 - 60
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Sol Diviner: 45:55
Ness isn't too much of a worry for Ganondorf compared to Lucas. Be wary that Ness's PK Fire can set you up for more annoying Ness shenanigans if you're not careful. Ness is also stupidly easy to gimp, which makes life easier for Ganon. Other than Ness's grabs, PK Fire, Fsmash, and Fair, Ness is a match-up that isn't much of an obstacle for the King of Evil.
G~P: 40:60
cant space us as much as lucas can, yet the playstyle is similar enough, be careful of his godlike f-air and various other disjointed attacks, also take extreme caution when edgeguarding as getting the timing wrong while trying to gimp him could lead to a lost stock surprisingly early.
make sure to avoid sheilding his pkfire as the lasting effect will literally burn your shield away and he will be able to grab you while doing this.
ganon does however have enough moves that outrange ness to cinsider this a lot closer than lucas, whom has a much easier time keeping ganon away
whle im here, can people tell me how to do the cool little pictures of the characters heads?
Tonsana: 40-60
Ness will backthrow you. That is all...
A2ZOMG: 35/65
I might be biased since my matchup experience is pretty much against one of the best Ness players in America, ViceGrip, and he knows the Ganon matchup really well since he himself is also a good Ganon user. However from what I've found, Ness is pretty annoying. While you outrange him and definitely can win in damage and priority, your spacing has to be very very good against him, especially moreso when dealing with his lingering F-air. What Ness also has (besides a good grab) that Lucas doesn't have is a stronger vertical spacing game. His D-air while slow and telegraphed, has a very generous autocancel window and disjoint, and the fact it can trade with your U-air isn't very fun to deal with onstage.
PK Fire is for the most part easily avoided, but it's very hard for Ganon to escape at low percents due to his high weight and fall speed. When Ness PKT Juggles you, don't airdodge. Throw out a neutral air or U-air. Edgeguarding him his very good, but you have to be smart about it, since if they see an edgeguard coming and start PKT2 early enough, they can blow right through you with invincibility frames...and that might kill you at like 50%.
Surviving long against Ness will happen for as long as you can avoid his B-throw. He will eventually get you though if he has the lead and you're trying to chase him down, especially on really flat stages like FD. Flame Choke combos aren't too easy to get, but great in this matchup when they happen.
Comment: Ness is much easier to gimp than Lucas,
and his disjoints aren't as troublesome.
Watch out for his Bthrow at high %'s.
Other than that, he should have trouble killing you aside from his Fsmash,
which you only get hit by if you make a mistake.
Sol Diviner: 45:55
Ness isn't too much of a worry for Ganondorf compared to Lucas. Be wary that Ness's PK Fire can set you up for more annoying Ness shenanigans if you're not careful. Ness is also stupidly easy to gimp, which makes life easier for Ganon. Other than Ness's grabs, PK Fire, Fsmash, and Fair, Ness is a match-up that isn't much of an obstacle for the King of Evil.
G~P: 40:60
cant space us as much as lucas can, yet the playstyle is similar enough, be careful of his godlike f-air and various other disjointed attacks, also take extreme caution when edgeguarding as getting the timing wrong while trying to gimp him could lead to a lost stock surprisingly early.
make sure to avoid sheilding his pkfire as the lasting effect will literally burn your shield away and he will be able to grab you while doing this.
ganon does however have enough moves that outrange ness to cinsider this a lot closer than lucas, whom has a much easier time keeping ganon away
whle im here, can people tell me how to do the cool little pictures of the characters heads?
Tonsana: 40-60
Ness will backthrow you. That is all...
A2ZOMG: 35/65
I might be biased since my matchup experience is pretty much against one of the best Ness players in America, ViceGrip, and he knows the Ganon matchup really well since he himself is also a good Ganon user. However from what I've found, Ness is pretty annoying. While you outrange him and definitely can win in damage and priority, your spacing has to be very very good against him, especially moreso when dealing with his lingering F-air. What Ness also has (besides a good grab) that Lucas doesn't have is a stronger vertical spacing game. His D-air while slow and telegraphed, has a very generous autocancel window and disjoint, and the fact it can trade with your U-air isn't very fun to deal with onstage.
PK Fire is for the most part easily avoided, but it's very hard for Ganon to escape at low percents due to his high weight and fall speed. When Ness PKT Juggles you, don't airdodge. Throw out a neutral air or U-air. Edgeguarding him his very good, but you have to be smart about it, since if they see an edgeguard coming and start PKT2 early enough, they can blow right through you with invincibility frames...and that might kill you at like 50%.
Surviving long against Ness will happen for as long as you can avoid his B-throw. He will eventually get you though if he has the lead and you're trying to chase him down, especially on really flat stages like FD. Flame Choke combos aren't too easy to get, but great in this matchup when they happen.
Moving on:
Vs
Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: Samus is one of the hardest opponents for Ganon to approach.
When we've dealt like 40% damage on her, she has probably already dealt like 100% on us.
But, luckily, "Samus can't kill".
If she had a reliable Kill Move, this MU'd be like 5 - 95
Also...
With proper DI and a smart Game Plan, you don't get gimped that easily by her.
Be willing to take a weak hit in favour of reaching a safer spot.
Vs Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: Samus is one of the hardest opponents for Ganon to approach.
When we've dealt like 40% damage on her, she has probably already dealt like 100% on us.
But, luckily, "Samus can't kill".
If she had a reliable Kill Move, this MU'd be like 5 - 95
Also...
With proper DI and a smart Game Plan, you don't get gimped that easily by her.
Be willing to take a weak hit in favour of reaching a safer spot.
Claire Diviner
President
Moving on:
Vs
Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: Samus is one of the hardest opponents for Ganon to approach.
When we've dealt like 40% damage on her, she has probably already dealt like 100% on us.
But, luckily, "Samus can't kill".
If she had a reliable Kill Move, this MU'd be like 5 - 95
Also...
With proper DI and a smart Game Plan, you don't get gimped that easily by her.
Be willing to take a weak hit in favour of reaching a safer spot.
Sol Diviner: 20:80
I haven't faced many Samus players, but the few I have played proved that this is a terrible MU for Ganon (not like any other MUs are something he'd enjoy). For starters, canceled projectile-spamming makes approaching exceedingly difficult. Worse still is her deisel spacing with her Zair. She may have a hard time killing, but she does a great job gimping with proper use and timing with her Zair. The fact she's hard to kill herself doesn't make things any easier. What we do have that's useful, is the ability to gimp her when the opportunity arises. Though be cautious when attempting to do so, because she can and will fight back and cause us to carelessly lose a stock. What it boils down to is Ganondorf fighting an uphill battle against a projectile-spammer: something he often detests.
Vs Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: Samus is one of the hardest opponents for Ganon to approach.
When we've dealt like 40% damage on her, she has probably already dealt like 100% on us.
But, luckily, "Samus can't kill".
If she had a reliable Kill Move, this MU'd be like 5 - 95
Also...
With proper DI and a smart Game Plan, you don't get gimped that easily by her.
Be willing to take a weak hit in favour of reaching a safer spot.
Sol Diviner: 20:80
I haven't faced many Samus players, but the few I have played proved that this is a terrible MU for Ganon (not like any other MUs are something he'd enjoy). For starters, canceled projectile-spamming makes approaching exceedingly difficult. Worse still is her deisel spacing with her Zair. She may have a hard time killing, but she does a great job gimping with proper use and timing with her Zair. The fact she's hard to kill herself doesn't make things any easier. What we do have that's useful, is the ability to gimp her when the opportunity arises. Though be cautious when attempting to do so, because she can and will fight back and cause us to carelessly lose a stock. What it boils down to is Ganondorf fighting an uphill battle against a projectile-spammer: something he often detests.
Tonsana
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2008
- Messages
- 175
Moving on:
Vs
Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: Samus is one of the hardest opponents for Ganon to approach.
When we've dealt like 40% damage on her, she has probably already dealt like 100% on us.
But, luckily, "Samus can't kill".
If she had a reliable Kill Move, this MU'd be like 5 - 95
Also...
With proper DI and a smart Game Plan, you don't get gimped that easily by her.
Be willing to take a weak hit in favour of reaching a safer spot.
Sol Diviner: 20:80
I haven't faced many Samus players, but the few I have played proved that this is a terrible MU for Ganon (not like any other MUs are something he'd enjoy). For starters, canceled projectile-spamming makes approaching exceedingly difficult. Worse still is her deisel spacing with her Zair. She may have a hard time killing, but she does a great job gimping with proper use and timing with her Zair. The fact she's hard to kill herself doesn't make things any easier. What we do have that's useful, is the ability to gimp her when the opportunity arises. Though be cautious when attempting to do so, because she can and will fight back and cause us to carelessly lose a stock. What it boils down to is Ganondorf fighting an uphill battle against a projectile-spammer: something he often detests.
Tonsana: 25:75
When I play against Samus I just watch when she is jumping, when she does, stop and sheild the zair/missle. You could also jump and airdodge at the same time so you are moving forward faster. Most samus players will try to kill you with Dtilt and bair. The matchup is a pain, but if you can read your apponent it will be much easier.
Vs
Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: Samus is one of the hardest opponents for Ganon to approach.
When we've dealt like 40% damage on her, she has probably already dealt like 100% on us.
But, luckily, "Samus can't kill".
If she had a reliable Kill Move, this MU'd be like 5 - 95
Also...
With proper DI and a smart Game Plan, you don't get gimped that easily by her.
Be willing to take a weak hit in favour of reaching a safer spot.
Sol Diviner: 20:80
I haven't faced many Samus players, but the few I have played proved that this is a terrible MU for Ganon (not like any other MUs are something he'd enjoy). For starters, canceled projectile-spamming makes approaching exceedingly difficult. Worse still is her deisel spacing with her Zair. She may have a hard time killing, but she does a great job gimping with proper use and timing with her Zair. The fact she's hard to kill herself doesn't make things any easier. What we do have that's useful, is the ability to gimp her when the opportunity arises. Though be cautious when attempting to do so, because she can and will fight back and cause us to carelessly lose a stock. What it boils down to is Ganondorf fighting an uphill battle against a projectile-spammer: something he often detests.
Tonsana: 25:75
When I play against Samus I just watch when she is jumping, when she does, stop and sheild the zair/missle. You could also jump and airdodge at the same time so you are moving forward faster. Most samus players will try to kill you with Dtilt and bair. The matchup is a pain, but if you can read your apponent it will be much easier.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
Vs
Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: Samus is one of the hardest opponents for Ganon to approach.
When we've dealt like 40% damage on her, she has probably already dealt like 100% on us.
But, luckily, "Samus can't kill".
If she had a reliable Kill Move, this MU'd be like 5 - 95
Also...
With proper DI and a smart Game Plan, you don't get gimped that easily by her.
Be willing to take a weak hit in favour of reaching a safer spot.
Sol Diviner: 20:80
I haven't faced many Samus players, but the few I have played proved that this is a terrible MU for Ganon (not like any other MUs are something he'd enjoy). For starters, canceled projectile-spamming makes approaching exceedingly difficult. Worse still is her deisel spacing with her Zair. She may have a hard time killing, but she does a great job gimping with proper use and timing with her Zair. The fact she's hard to kill herself doesn't make things any easier. What we do have that's useful, is the ability to gimp her when the opportunity arises. Though be cautious when attempting to do so, because she can and will fight back and cause us to carelessly lose a stock. What it boils down to is Ganondorf fighting an uphill battle against a projectile-spammer: something he often detests.
Tonsana: 25:75
When I play against Samus I just watch when she is jumping, when she does, stop and sheild the zair/missle. You could also jump and airdodge at the same time so you are moving forward faster. Most samus players will try to kill you with Dtilt and bair. The matchup is a pain, but if you can read your apponent it will be much easier.
G~P: 20:80
i paly with (arguably) the best samus in the world on a reasonably regular basis and i can safely say that this is hell and the lsat character ganon wants to fight in low tier. samus mains are naturally the most campy defensive, ledge-happy players in the game and youll have to use some kind of insane prediction jsut to get in, let alone hit her, the only redeeming thing is that you wont be dying till about 200%, but if samus plays it right you wont be touching her to even try to stop that damage being racked
also, the z-air doesnt stale, 7% every time (4% if un-tipped)
by the way, i say arguably because the samus would probably be pretty equal if they had the same tournament rules (no lgl over here)
Z1GMA: 25 - 75
Comment: Samus is one of the hardest opponents for Ganon to approach.
When we've dealt like 40% damage on her, she has probably already dealt like 100% on us.
But, luckily, "Samus can't kill".
If she had a reliable Kill Move, this MU'd be like 5 - 95
Also...
With proper DI and a smart Game Plan, you don't get gimped that easily by her.
Be willing to take a weak hit in favour of reaching a safer spot.
Sol Diviner: 20:80
I haven't faced many Samus players, but the few I have played proved that this is a terrible MU for Ganon (not like any other MUs are something he'd enjoy). For starters, canceled projectile-spamming makes approaching exceedingly difficult. Worse still is her deisel spacing with her Zair. She may have a hard time killing, but she does a great job gimping with proper use and timing with her Zair. The fact she's hard to kill herself doesn't make things any easier. What we do have that's useful, is the ability to gimp her when the opportunity arises. Though be cautious when attempting to do so, because she can and will fight back and cause us to carelessly lose a stock. What it boils down to is Ganondorf fighting an uphill battle against a projectile-spammer: something he often detests.
Tonsana: 25:75
When I play against Samus I just watch when she is jumping, when she does, stop and sheild the zair/missle. You could also jump and airdodge at the same time so you are moving forward faster. Most samus players will try to kill you with Dtilt and bair. The matchup is a pain, but if you can read your apponent it will be much easier.
G~P: 20:80
i paly with (arguably) the best samus in the world on a reasonably regular basis and i can safely say that this is hell and the lsat character ganon wants to fight in low tier. samus mains are naturally the most campy defensive, ledge-happy players in the game and youll have to use some kind of insane prediction jsut to get in, let alone hit her, the only redeeming thing is that you wont be dying till about 200%, but if samus plays it right you wont be touching her to even try to stop that damage being racked
also, the z-air doesnt stale, 7% every time (4% if un-tipped)
by the way, i say arguably because the samus would probably be pretty equal if they had the same tournament rules (no lgl over here)