Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[JustCallMeJon]

MKLeo used to beat Falln and the chat just talked trash against MKLeo for betrayal. People are always not happy when they saw a bayo.

 

[TTTTTsd]

To quote Virum:

Top level Cloud fading into the darkness 👀

— Virum (Old Profile) (@Virum_SD) March 25, 2018

People are realizing that another option exists and can do so much more, like ignore multiple game states.

The natural result is happening right now, I think a lot of us knew in the back of our minds it'd go this way.

Also #VegetaSucks

 

[Shaya]

Well if we're sneaking that ban on Cloud in dubs, maybe we can see salvation for singles too.
>.>

 

[Rizen]

I agree, Sheik's Link's worst MU. Fox is bad and a candidate for his 2nd worst with Bayo and ROB. IDK the ROB MU but many Link players think it's bad.

And MkLeo 3-2 Fallnwith another reverse 3-0. Not sure why he went Bayo, but he still barely clutched it out.

Leo has a Bayo now? Abandon hope all ye who enter here...
(edit, nothing against Leo; IDC who anyone plays. It's just that possibly the best player in the world is using Bayo now so she'll reign uncontested, even by Diddy and Cloud)

 

[Iridium]

I agree, Sheik's Link's worst MU. Fox is bad and a candidate for his 2nd worst with Bayo and ROB. IDK the ROB MU but many Link players think it's bad.

Leo has a Bayo now? Abandon hope all ye who enter here...
(edit, nothing against Leo; IDC who anyone plays. It's just that possibly the best player in the world is using Bayo now so she'll reign uncontested, even by Diddy and Cloud)

Guess his loss to Dabuz recently made him reconsider going Marth or Cloud, but I still think he could have won with either regardless.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

At just over 150 entrants, this is a stacked regional, not a major. Good to Ven and Taternator () for getting 25th, though.

As a Jr main, I'm pleased that Taternator made 25th. Shows that were still on the radar.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I agree, Sheik's Link's worst MU. Fox is bad and a candidate for his 2nd worst with Bayo and ROB. IDK the ROB MU but many Link players think it's bad.

Leo has a Bayo now? Abandon hope all ye who enter here...
(edit, nothing against Leo; IDC who anyone plays. It's just that possibly the best player in the world is using Bayo now so she'll reign uncontested, even by Diddy and Cloud)

Sooner or later Nairo is going to be using Bayo too, it will be a dark day when that time comes.

 

[The-Technique]

To quote Virum:

Top level Cloud fading into the darkness 👀

— Virum (Old Profile) (@Virum_SD) March 25, 2018

Called it.

 

[Iridium]

Cosmos 3-2 Tweek to make Top 8. Tweek actually pulled out his Cloud, and almost took the set, but flubbed with his Limit Cross Slash and died for it. Cosmos now faces the winner of Mistake vs. VoiD later.

Mistake 3-2 VoiD to make Top 8 with yet another game 5 situation. The ending was really painful, with how close VoiD was to taking the set. If you count Leo, another Bayo makes it out in winners. You were correct, Minordeth .

Larry Lurr 3-1 Fallnto make Top 8 losers side. Larry seemed to download Falln after the first game, and his aggressive play style mixed with killing off the Lumas at any opportunity was too much for Falln, with this set not going to game 5 this time.

Fatality 3-2 Salem in an epic set! This set was full of edgeguards, SDs, yet Fatality to get his second win on Salem this year, almost making this matchup seem even!

Tweek 3-0 Brosinex to advance to Top 8. This set was not free for Tweek, and Brosinex generally had a small lead, but could not finish him off, especially at the end. I could see Brosinex making the PGR if he makes more great placings like this.

Captain Zack 3-2 VoiD, nearly avoiding a reverse 3-0. The Bayo invasion continues, although now Zack has to face Tweek. I feel bad for VoiD, as he got double eliminated by the same character, both in game 5 situations additionally.

 

[The_Bookworm]

To quote Virum:

Top level Cloud fading into the darkness 👀

— Virum (Old Profile) (@Virum_SD) March 25, 2018

I noticed that Cloud is starting to drop down a little bit, but he is nevertheless popular and strong.

9th: VoiD
9th: Brosinex
9th: Salem
9th: falln
13th: Ally
13th: Charliedaking
13th: Eon
13th: Captain L
17th: Xzax
17th: Konga
17th: Karna
17th: S2H
17th: Lycan
17th: K9sbruce
17th: SoCalGohan
17th: Dakpo
25th: ven
25th: Technicals
25th: Gabe
25th: Urameshi
25th: Light
25th: AC
25th: Ty
25th: Taternator


Notable Players out Earlier:
33rd: Mr. ConCon
33rd: BestNess
33rd: Z
33rd: AEMehr
33rd: Dynamo
33rd: Kiraflax
49th: FOW
49th: pu55yking
65th: KOrean

 

[Iridium]

I noticed that Cloud is starting to drop down a little bit, but he is nevertheless popular and strong.

9th:
9th:
9th:
9th: falln
13th: Ally
13th: Charliedaking
13th: Eon
13th: Captain L
17th: Xzax
17th: Konga
17th: Karna
17th: S2H
17th: Lycan
17th: K9sbruce
17th: SoCalGohan
17th: Dakpo
25th: ven
25th: Technicals
25th: Gabe
25th: Urameshi
25th: Light
25th: AC
25th: Ty
25th: Taternator


Notable Players out Earlier:
33rd: Mr. ConCon
33rd: BestNess
33rd: Z
33rd: AEMehr
33rd: Dynamo
33rd: Kiraflax
49th: FOW
49th: pu55yking
65th: KOrean

I believe Ven used Corrin as well. Also, a lot of SoCal team kills going on.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Fatality defeats Salem to reach top 8 loser's side!!!

Top 8

Winner's Bracket:
MKLeo vs Nairo
Cosmos vs Mistake


Loser's Bracket:
Larry Lurr vs Fatality
Tweek vs Captain Zack

I noticed that there is a noticeable gap in results between the top Bayo players (Tweek, Salem, Zack, Mistake, and Lima) and the other Bayo players (tyroy is to a lesser extent, hence why he is in the PGR). It proves that combining pure strong skill and possessing the best character in the game can bring magical stuff to you.

 

[Iridium]

Three Bayos in Top 8, four if you include Leo: Captain Zack, Mistake, Tweek and Leo possibly. One is guaranteed to go down immediately: Zack or Tweek. Also, the SoCal team kills are real: Eon over AC and K9sbruce, Charlie over S2H, and Larry Lurr over falln and Charlie, and now only Larry remains from SoCal, with VoiD out as well.

I predict either Nairo, Leo or Mistake taking this, and maybe Tweek if he can continue his losers run.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Three Bayos in Top 8, four if you include Leo: Captain Zack, Mistake, Tweek and Leo possibly. One is guaranteed to go down immediately: Zack or Tweek. Also, the SoCal team kills are real: Eon over AC and K9sbruce, Charlie over S2H, and Larry Lurr over falln and Charlie, and now only Larry remains from SoCal, with VoiD out as well.

I think Leo is just going to use Bayo against falln. Rosalina can be a tricky matchup. He doesn't want to take another L against a Rosa considering his set against Dabuz in Midwest Mayhem.

I am not going to count Leo as a Bayo. Using her once to win a set doesn't mean you are sticking with her.

 

[Iridium]

I think Leo is just going to use Bayo against falln. Rosalina can be a tricky matchup. He doesn't want to take another L against a Rosa considering his set against Dabuz in Midwest Mayhem.

I can understand that, but how well does he do against Nairo in general? Not sure at this point, especially after Tokaigi 2018. If he gets past Nairo, this tourney could definitely be his.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I agree, Sheik's Link's worst MU. Fox is bad and a candidate for his 2nd worst with Bayo and ROB. IDK the ROB MU but many Link players think it's bad.

Leo has a Bayo now? Abandon hope all ye who enter here...
(edit, nothing against Leo; IDC who anyone plays. It's just that possibly the best player in the world is using Bayo now so she'll reign uncontested, even by Diddy and Cloud)

MKLeo has been playing Bayo since she was released not very seriously but enough to be competent with her it's nothing new. At most he pulls it out in doubles at smaller Mexican tournaments or as it seems in a case like this where his usual Rosalina character wasn't working for him.

But it should be expected the longer the game is out the more people switch to the best option to give them a winning chance which would be the number one character in the game, Bayonetta. Says nothing about the viability of characters below her like Cloud but if all you care about is winning why use the second best option to win over the best option? Unlike Melee where characters are diverse enough that it can takes years to become proficient enough with Fox to win, in smash 4 having top level fundamentals is enough to grant you some success in this game with most of the characters in this game.

I'd definitely expect to see more Bayonetta's come from top players. The question is will players eventually figure out how to play against her to the point they know how to play against Cloud? If so how will it affect the number of Bayo secondaries/pockets we will continue to see?

 

[The-Technique]

All I know is that players like Elegant, Fatality, Cosmos, and ESAM are way ahead of the curve for fighting Bayo. It's a shame the large majority of players don't share their tenacity.

 

[Kofu]

Regarding Fatality, Iridium commented that he makes the Falcon/Bayo MU seem almost even. I haven't watched the set, so I can't particularly comment on what happened, but I could see where Falcon could have an advantage in the MU. Grabs are one of his primary sources of damage and he has the mobility to punish a flubbed Bayo special/combo. Camping him like Salem likes to do won't work too well when your opponent can close the gap and wants you in the air. He's got scary airdodge reads/frame traps on most of the cast, but I could see that being compounded for Bayonetta. Her airdodges are especially laggy which means more opportunities for Falcon to keep her in disadvantage. If she airdodge at the wrong time (or even airdodges the wrong move of Falcon can react to Bat Within) she's going to be suffering.

On the flip side, Falcon is one of the easiest characters to juggle and gimp (though Fatality's offstage game and mixups are phenomenal).

What's Fatality's recent record against Bayonetta players other than Salem?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Three Bayos in Top 8, four if you include Leo: Captain Zack, Mistake, Tweek and Leo possibly. One is guaranteed to go down immediately: Zack or Tweek. Also, the SoCal team kills are real: Eon over AC and K9sbruce, Charlie over S2H, and Larry Lurr over falln and Charlie, and now only Larry remains from SoCal, with VoiD out as well.

I predict either Nairo, Leo or Mistake taking this, and maybe Tweek if he can continue his losers run.

The invasion of the witches has begun, *shudders*.

 

[Minordeth]

So, my safe prediction turned o
ut to be correct. I'm surprised Salem is out, but whatevs.

A few player focused hot takes on some matches going into top 8 tomorrow:

Tweek vs Cosmos
You should notice something right off the bat with this match: Tweek rarely uses Witch Twist. He used it about 2-3 times a game. Why? Well, he plays with Cosmos all the time, and Tweek has mentioned that Cosmos SDI knowledge is really good. And you can see this play out. Cosmos got out of a combo and hit Tweek with a Nair, Cosmos got out of a combo right after ABK, and only took 14%, while also landing first, and then killed Tweek with Dsmash when he landed.

Tweek clearly wanted to use it sparingly, when it would be most likely to catch Cosmos off-guard and reduce the chances that he could mitigate its effects. It was a decent strategy, but not being able to utilize Bayo's second best tool as much clearly limited him.

Cosmos needs to learn to use Counter more. Yeah, it's frame 7, but other than Wtw, Bayo has no move faster than frame 7, and they all have lingering hitboxes, should she choose.

MKLeo vs Falln
We didn't see the first game, but the second was more Leo playing uncharacteristically sloppy and Falln capitalizing on it. And an SD to end the game? Okay, man.

The Bayo pick was a surprise, but Leo likes to pick things based on capricious feelings, so whatever. He's been practicing with her, and with Mistake and Lima, so it's not a surprise that he does pretty well. Falln is also shaky when it comes to Bayo, which I believe Leo witnessed in person. Falln got infamously 3-0'd by Mistake in the recent past, and I doubt he was expecting a Bayo from Leo.

From then on, we got Leo doing what he should have been doing with Cloud: making it impossible for Rosa to get away from the ledge without taking damage. He eliminated Luma almost every single time Falln got up, as well.

I don't really think much else of this. The hand wringing across Twitter for this set is... bizarre. You have a Ryu almost make top 8, Captain Falcon and Corrin making it, and ZSS sending two elite Bayos to Losers. But we are gonna lose it because Leo picking Bayo for two games signifies the beginning of a top player exodus to Bayoville? Nah.

I understand it sucks to see Falln get wiped, and I was rooting for him too, but good grief.

 

[The-Technique]

So, my safe prediction turned o
ut to be correct. I'm surprised Salem is out, but whatevs.

A few player focused hot takes on some matches going into top 8 tomorrow:

Tweek vs Cosmos
You should notice something right off the bat with this match: Tweek rarely uses Witch Twist. He used it about 2-3 times a game. Why? Well, he plays with Cosmos all the time, and Tweek has mentioned that Cosmos SDI knowledge is really good. And you can see this play out. Cosmos got out of a combo and hit Tweek with a Nair, Cosmos got out of a combo right after ABK, and only took 14%, while also landing first, and then killed Tweek with Dsmash when he landed.

Tweek clearly wanted to use it sparingly, when it would be most likely to catch Cosmos off-guard and reduce the chances that he could mitigate its effects. It was a decent strategy, but not being able to utilize Bayo's second best tool as much clearly limited him.

Cosmos needs to learn to use Counter more. Yeah, it's frame 7, but other than Wtw, Bayo has no move faster than frame 7, and they all have lingering hitboxes, should she choose.

MKLeo vs Falln
We didn't see the first game, but the second was more Leo playing uncharacteristically sloppy and Falln capitalizing on it. And an SD to end the game? Okay, man.

The Bayo pick was a surprise, but Leo likes to pick things based on capricious feelings, so whatever. He's been practicing with her, and with Mistake and Lima, so it's not a surprise that he does pretty well. Falln is also shaky when it comes to Bayo, which I believe Leo witnessed in person. Falln got infamously 3-0'd by Mistake in the recent past, and I doubt he was expecting a Bayo from Leo.

From then on, we got Leo doing what he should have been doing with Cloud: making it impossible for Rosa to get away from the ledge without taking damage. He eliminated Luma almost every single time Falln got up, as well.

I don't really think much else of this. The hand wringing across Twitter for this set is... bizarre. You have a Ryu almost make top 8, Captain Falcon and Corrin making it, and ZSS sending two elite Bayos to Losers. But we are gonna lose it because Leo picking Bayo for two games signifies the beginning of a top player exodus to Bayoville? Nah.

I understand it sucks to see Falln get wiped, and I was rooting for him too, but good grief.

Yeah the "Smash 4 is dead" chants were pretty deafening. Strange considering that almost none of the sets served to prove that Bayo ruled over the cast with an iron fist. Like even in the set that Brosinex got 3-0'd in vs Tweek's Bayo, 2 out of those 3 games were last stock last hit, right down to the wire.

Oh yeah, and because of that one set that Leo played Bayonetta in, now he's just another Bayo main. Forget about his history of playing Cloud, Marth, Meta Knight, none of that **** matters. He's a filthy traitor to our community and belongs on a cross.

Fatality beating Salem? Cosmos beating Tweek? Nairo beating Zack and Salem? Who gives a ****, Bayonetta is *killing* the game. We need to ban her NOW, end of story. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

/s

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

So, my safe prediction turned o
ut to be correct. I'm surprised Salem is out, but whatevs.

A few player focused hot takes on some matches going into top 8 tomorrow:

Tweek vs Cosmos
You should notice something right off the bat with this match: Tweek rarely uses Witch Twist. He used it about 2-3 times a game. Why? Well, he plays with Cosmos all the time, and Tweek has mentioned that Cosmos SDI knowledge is really good. And you can see this play out. Cosmos got out of a combo and hit Tweek with a Nair, Cosmos got out of a combo right after ABK, and only took 14%, while also landing first, and then killed Tweek with Dsmash when he landed.

Tweek clearly wanted to use it sparingly, when it would be most likely to catch Cosmos off-guard and reduce the chances that he could mitigate its effects. It was a decent strategy, but not being able to utilize Bayo's second best tool as much clearly limited him.

Cosmos needs to learn to use Counter more. Yeah, it's frame 7, but other than Wtw, Bayo has no move faster than frame 7, and they all have lingering hitboxes, should she choose.

MKLeo vs Falln
We didn't see the first game, but the second was more Leo playing uncharacteristically sloppy and Falln capitalizing on it. And an SD to end the game? Okay, man.

The Bayo pick was a surprise, but Leo likes to pick things based on capricious feelings, so whatever. He's been practicing with her, and with Mistake and Lima, so it's not a surprise that he does pretty well. Falln is also shaky when it comes to Bayo, which I believe Leo witnessed in person. Falln got infamously 3-0'd by Mistake in the recent past, and I doubt he was expecting a Bayo from Leo.

From then on, we got Leo doing what he should have been doing with Cloud: making it impossible for Rosa to get away from the ledge without taking damage. He eliminated Luma almost every single time Falln got up, as well.

I don't really think much else of this. The hand wringing across Twitter for this set is... bizarre. You have a Ryu almost make top 8, Captain Falcon and Corrin making it, and ZSS sending two elite Bayos to Losers. But we are gonna lose it because Leo picking Bayo for two games signifies the beginning of a top player exodus to Bayoville? Nah.

I understand it sucks to see Falln get wiped, and I was rooting for him too, but good grief.

Leo definitely played worse than usual, which is surprising because he is usually very consistent with his gameplay.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Leo definitely played worse than usual, which is surprising because he is usually very consistent with his gameplay.

Haha funny joke. 65th at Civil War and EVO 2017, but 1st at Genesis 4, GameTyrant Expo 2017, and 2GG Championship. Doesn't exactly scream "consistency".

 

[Frihetsanka]

I noticed something when watching Cosmos vs Tweek: Cosmos was willing to give up many juggle situations in order to not trigger Witch Time. His MU knowledge vs Bayonetta is clearly very good (and I think it's an even MU as well, probably one of Bayonettas hardest), and the Bayonetta players seem to struggle dealing with him.

A possible consequence of banning Cloud in doubles could be that some Cloud players decide to main Bayonetta instead, since she'd be a better pick for both doubles and singles. I don't think MkLeo will do this though, and Tweek was already moving in that direction even before Cloud got banned (in some tournaments).

 

[Iridium]

The invasion of the witches has begun, *shudders*.

At least one is guaranteed to fall now, being Zack or Tweek, and Leo can most likely take out Mistake if he gets past Nairo. But if VoiD and Brosinex won each of their sets, this Top 8 would look more diverse.

 

[The_Bookworm]

AGAIN (in case you are serious with your comments, although I think not) IT WAS FOR ONE SET. Leo is unlikely to pull her out, considering how difficult the Rosa matchup was. He doesn't want a repeat of Midwest Mayhem and lose to another Rosa.

 

[Iridium]

Does anybody know Leo's record against Nairo. While there is a low chance of him pulling out his Bayo, has he struggled against Nairo, or always has been even?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Does anybody know Leo's record against Nairo. While there is a low chance of him pulling out his Bayo, has he struggled against Nairo, or always has been even?

Leo hasn't struggled too much against Nairo. afaik their record against one another is pretty even.

 

[Iridium]

Leo hasn't struggled too much against Nairo. afaik their record against one another is pretty even.

Interesting. Well, I still see either taking this tourney, although one will have to make a losers run.

 

[WiFi]

Corrin definitely goes even with Bayonetta. I think that while the number of Bayonettas is going to increase over time, the number of counter-strats against Bayonetta will also grow. I personally believe Bayonetta goes even with these characters: Pikachu, Marth, Corrin, Bayonetta, Diddy, and C. Falcon. Bayonetta only loses to Sheik and Cloud, and even then, I'd probably say Cloud goes even with Bayonetta.

Bayonetta also isn't as bad as people think. I've been playing a lot of Brawl and DBFZ lately, and Brawl MK and Android 16 make Bayonetta seem well-balanced. Android 16, in particular, had Leffen and Mew2king say that he had one of the poorest designs of any fighting game characters. And Leffen plays Fox in Melee and Mew2King is a MK main.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is a bit off topic, but while top level Bayo has increased in results, lower level Bayo's results are starting to drop off in lower levels of play, at first at the start of the year, then a little more after RHS and BSD released their Bayo counterplay videos. In the end, the Bayo players with the most skill will be the Bayo players that will thrive in the current metagame. It is about time that the witch actually acted like the best character instead of only one of them winning majors like in 2017.

Corrin definitely goes even with Bayonetta. I think that while the number of Bayonettas is going to increase over time, the number of counter-strats against Bayonetta will also grow. I personally believe Bayonetta goes even with these characters: Pikachu, Marth, Corrin, Bayonetta, Diddy, and C. Falcon. Bayonetta only loses to Sheik and Cloud, and even then, I'd probably say Cloud goes even with Bayonetta.

Bayonetta also isn't as bad as people think. I've been playing a lot of Brawl and DBFZ lately, and Brawl MK and Android 16 make Bayonetta seem well-balanced. Android 16, in particular, had Leffen and Mew2king say that he had one of the poorest designs of any fighting game characters. And Leffen plays Fox in Melee and Mew2King is a MK main.

I actually think Corrin and Marth slightly wins against Bayo, due to the number of options they have against her. Brawl MK and Android 16 does make her seem well balanced LOL. I am anticipating a nerf from her in the Smash Switch nevertheless.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

This is a bit off topic, but while top level Bayo has increased in results, lower level Bayo's results are starting to drop off in lower levels of play, at first at the start of the year, then a little more after RHS and BSD released their Bayo counterplay videos. In the end, the Bayo players with the most skill will be the Bayo players that will thrive in the current metagame. It is about time that the witch actually acted like the best character instead of one player winning majors like in 2017.

I actually think Corrin and Marth slightly wins against Bayo, due to the number of options they have against her. Brawl MK and Android 16 does make her seem well balanced LOL. I am anticipating a nerf from her in the Smash Switch nevertheless.

Bayonetta will probably get the meta knight treatment in transition to smash switch. Maybe some changes to her moves and such.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bayonetta will probably get the meta knight treatment in transition to smash switch. Maybe some changes to her moves and such.

I would hope so, although SSB4 MK was initially upper mid tier until he was buffed in game updates.

 

[WiFi]

This is a bit off topic, but while top level Bayo has increased in results, lower level Bayo's results are starting to drop off in lower levels of play, at first at the start of the year, then a little more after RHS and BSD released their Bayo counterplay videos. In the end, the Bayo players with the most skill will be the Bayo players that will thrive in the current metagame. It is about time that the witch actually acted like the best character instead of only one of them winning majors like in 2017.

I actually think Corrin and Marth slightly wins against Bayo, due to the number of options they have against her. Brawl MK and Android 16 does make her seem well balanced LOL. I am anticipating a nerf from her in the Smash Switch nevertheless.

Android 16 is a Cloud with lots of super armor mixed with Smash 64 Pikachu. Yeah, Bayonetta doesn't seem as bad. Although, I can't see Bayonetta hogging the results as a solo main due to her not being as easy or dominating as Brawl MK.

 

[The_Bookworm]

WERE DID THE FIRST SET GO?!? THAT WAS A 5 MINUTE SET FATALITY!!!

 

[JB333]

Fatality just 3-0’d Larry Lurr... his demon... It wasn’t even close... WHAT IS HAPPENING

 

[Iridium]

Fatality 3-0 Larry Lurr in probably the quickest and most one-sided 3-0 I have ever seen. Fatality really was trying to speedrun him so bad, and succeeded. He fights the loser of Cosmos and Mistake next.
Tweek 3-1 Captain Zack in a somewhat enjoyable set. It's so scary to think of Tweek being the best Bayo (game 3 ending as some evidence), but Mistake still challenges him at this point.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Fatality swiftly 3-0 Larry Lurr!

That is heavilly lopsided though. C. Falcon is a very explosive character

 

[The_Bookworm]

Fatality 3-0 Larry Lurr in probably the quickest and most one-sided 3-0 I have ever seen. Fatality really was trying to speedrun him so bad, and succeeded. He fights the loser of Cosmos and Mistake next.

Most likely Mistake, considering how well Cosmos is well versed in the Bayo matchup.

 

[Nah]

I actually think Corrin slightly wins against Bayo, due to the number of options they have against her.

please elaborate