A Complete Guide to DI and Survival (updated Mar. 6th 2009)

[rPSIvysaur]

eff... I thought this was the bowser frame data thread lol

 

[yoshq]

so snakes should now air dodge, jump, and upb? or just jump upb? (to cancel horizontal momentum) and i was assuming the same thing applied to diagonal momentum, but i'm getting a hint that these are 2 different things?

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

Air Dodge and Jump. Up B doesn't extend Snake's life at all. For diagonal it was recommended that Snakes use Uair and fastfall, but it depend on how "diagonal" your flight path really is

 

[JRC LSS]

For Snake's horizontal momentum cancelling, use airdodge to jump. For vertical, just do any aerial (doesn't matter which) and fastfall. For diagonal you just need to make a quick decision whether you are going to die vertically or horizontally. I guess if you were really unsure you could fastfall a bair and then jump since bair isn't that bad for horizontal momentum cancelling and the fastfall would help you out for the vertical.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

For diagonal, you'll want to DI up and FF your aerial so you head towards the corner in a curved shape, lengthening the distance that you travel, letting you live longer.

 

[Yikarur]

for vertically momentum canceling dair is one frame better than any other aerial.

 

[infomon]

for vertically momentum canceling dair is one frame better than any other aerial.

For.... who? Or is that for anyone? like, Dairs can activate earlier in hitstun than other aerials?

 

[Yikarur]

no but dair has the fast fall in the first frame of dair.
every other aerials has the fast fall in the second frame of aerial because of how the game reads the C-Stick.

If you hold down and doing bair with the C-Stick the games reads the following:
"left+attack"
"down" (fast fall)
if you use dair it'll read like the following:
"down+aerial" (fast fall)

so dair fast falls one frame earlier than any other aerial.

 

[Flayl]

What's the weakest 1-hit USmash in the game? I've tested FF'ing FAir and using C-stick Dair as Bowser and I died at the same %s to Jigglypuff's USmash.

 

[Yikarur]

testing it the normal way is really random. You can do an aerial from frame 26 of hitstun. You can't buffer it and I don't think you always hit frame 26
and why do you use bowser? use a character with a significant fast fall (Dedede, Snake). It's easier to see the difference there.

 

[Flayl]

I tested for bowser (about 3 weeks ago?) because I was working on Bowser's metagame obviously

I'm not doubting your word or anything, I just want to be sure that the 1 frame difference doesn't matter for Bowser.

 

[cHp]

What's the weakest 1-hit USmash in the game? I've tested FF'ing FAir and using C-stick Dair as Bowser and I died at the same %s to Jigglypuff's USmash.

Knockback-wise I think White Pikmin Up Smash lol?

 

[Yikarur]

ah kay, 1 frame is really like nothing. o:

 

[Jar'd]

Snake pivot's at his neck when he does a backair, so that might be the best for Vertical momentum canceling. Not sure how that compares with an extra frame of fastfall.

 

[MK26]

no but dair has the fast fall in the first frame of dair.
every other aerials has the fast fall in the second frame of aerial because of how the game reads the C-Stick.

If you hold down and doing bair with the C-Stick the games reads the following:
"left+attack"
"down" (fast fall)
if you use dair it'll read like the following:
"down+aerial" (fast fall)

so dair fast falls one frame earlier than any other aerial.

Arent you able to buffer the aerial? If so, that would allow you to effectively fastfall and do any aerial at the same time.

 

[JRC LSS]

The whole "hurtbox alignment" theory for Snake's momentum cancelling is completely bs. Bair is just as good as any other aerial. Apparently it's actually one frame worse than dair, but that basically doesn't matter.

 

[Yikarur]

Yeah the hurtbox stuff is wrong. You only die to a blastzone if a specific bubble (which should be in the center of the char/speculation) that doesn't change touches the blastzone.
Bair is Snakes least lasting aerial so it's the best choice for horizontal/diagonal momentum cancel, if you get hit vertically dair should be better (framewise and because Snakes fast fall is one of the best) but if you know you aren't really going to die you should still use bair because you regain control faster.

and no you can't buffer the aerial in hitstun.

 

[JRC LSS]

Yeah the hurtbox stuff is wrong. You only die to a blastzone if a specific bubble (which should be in the center of the char/speculation) that doesn't change touches the blastzone.
Bair is Snakes least lasting aerial so it's the best choice for horizontal/diagonal momentum cancel, if you get hit vertically dair should be better (framewise and because Snakes fast fall is one of the best) but if you know you aren't really going to die you should still use bair because you regain control faster.

and no you can't buffer the aerial in hitstun.

Actually airdodge is better for Snake's horizontal momentum cancelling. It's shorter in duration than bair and you can also do it sooner than any aerial after being hit.

 

[Yikarur]

thats a misconception and is situational too.
Of course airdodge finishes sooner but you don't have the massive fast fall Snake has.
The fast fall guarantees better survival chances over all.

DI/Survival in Brawl has 2 concepts.
First is too try to get the longest flight distance from the point of being hit and the blast zone.
Second is to use the hitstun canceling least lasting move to regain control earlier and possibly use your double jump to reduce momentum.

Now when you get hit by a killmove and you have the feeling for it and you know you're not going to die anyway you can airdodge and DI more diagonally to regain control faster.
but if you get a massive hit thats reallly hard to survive DIing to the celing close to the corner and using fast fall bair is always the better bet.
if you use bair + fast fall to momentum cancel you're flying path becomes curved instead of straight in one direction, airdodge does not have this effect because you can't fast fall your airdodge.
in this way you lengthened your flying path and has a greater chance of survival too.

Conclusion:
you can airdodge at lower kill% where you're sure you won't die anyway but at really high% bair + fast fall is always better if you DI is good enough.

 

[infomon]

Actually airdodge is better for Snake's horizontal momentum cancelling. It's shorter in duration than bair and you can also do it sooner than any aerial after being hit.

Yikarur: he said horizontal. In which case, I agree with him.

With regards to DI, then yes, aiming for the corner is relevant. But after you've already been launched... the fastfall only affects the vertical component of your trajectory, not the horizontal. If you're only worried about the horizontal killzone, then the fastfall is irrelevant.

At least, that's according to my (extensive) tests (but that was before the hacking scene had matured).

Edit:

you can airdodge at lower kill% where you're sure you won't die anyway but at really high% bair + fast fall is always better if you DI is good enough.

I agree with this too. With perfect DI and assuming you're Snake (no "brake" move), then you want to DI towards slightly higher than the corner, so that the fastfall will lower you to be aiming for the corner. (Unless Snake's jump/specials give him more momentum-cancellyness than I think? or unless he has an item maybe too.)

But that's not what JRC LSS was talking about.

 

[Yikarur]

"horizontal momentum canceling" is the general term, if should be actually diagonal momentum canceling because you're not going to DI so that you're flying horizontal. (horizontal is bad)

 

[JRC LSS]

Yes, you should be DIing up/towards a corner, but if you're hit at very horizontal trajectory (something like fox's down smash) or if you missed your chance to DI, then horizontal momentum cancelling becomes relevant. If you are heading towards the horizontal blast zone your best chance for survival is to airdodge and then jump towards the stage.

 

[Yikarur]

I don't think that you have time to decide "oh I DI'd wrong, I have to use airdodge" xD but yes you don't want to aerial + fast fall if you fly that way lol

 

[san.]

You have sufficient time to decide whether to air dodge or aerial+fastfall in most cases. 1st signal is what move you get hit by.

2nd is the way you DI. For characters who has their best horizontal momentum cancel as air dodge, they DI up on most attacks outside of strong upsmashes anyways for the better vertical momentum cancel. There aren't too many moves that kill horizontally even when DIing up.

 

[Grox]

Great job on the guide.