A Complete Guide to DI and Survival (updated Mar. 6th 2009)

[BSP]

Don't know if this is in the guide, but maybe it should mention that aerials that normally affect your falling speed WONT help you momentum cancel. People with any stall then falls should be aware of this.

 

[RATED]

I love this guide, btw why this isn't stickied? this should be

 

[swordgard]

I love this guide, btw why this isn't stickied? this should be

A) Not enough people ask to sticky
B) Theres still more to DI which i havent correctly explained but would if they wanted to sticky it.

 

[RATED]

^ ah ok, thanks for the guide then, I learned to DI , SDI , etc with this guide.

 

[Nanaki]

Shamelessly bumping for great justice.

This thread is too win.

 

[Mota]

Shamelessly bumping for great justice.

This thread is too win.

Thanks for bumping, this has helped a lot.

 

[Roxas1988]

Gotta say this guide was goos in getting my DI better. These are some of the most important guides out right now. My characters all depend on DI to survive. But yea thanks again for this epic guide!! Definetly worth the bump!!!!

 

[Atlasmist]

quick thanks 4 a good tread

 

[KillerJawz]

This is a really good guide, very impressive, but one thing you may want to correct is the Samus data, her fastest aerial is uair, not bair.

 

[yoshq]

BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Grenade Throw/Up Air


what does this mean? to break momentum you can either grenade throw or upair before fast falling?

 

[infomon]

BCDI:
Fastest Aerial: Grenade Throw/Up Air


what does this mean? to break momentum you can either grenade throw or upair before fast falling?

Wow that's wrong and misleading.

I'm willing to accept that Snake's Up-Air is the fastest of his aerials (I haven't checked his frame data myself but w/e)
If a Snake is headed straight upwards, then he should probably Uair and immediately tap down to fastfall it.
(Although, if you're headed straight up, you don't necessarily care about using the aerial which ends the soonest. But you might, like to avoid a follow-up attack or smthg, so w/e.)

But Snake's aerials are slow compared to his airdodge. AND you can airdodge earlier in hitstun than you can use an aerial. So more often than not, I see Snakes airdodge to escape hitstun, followed by their midair jump to avoid the side killzone. (I'm not sure if his up-B helps or hinders or whatnot.)

The only problem with airdodge is that you can't fastfall it.

But what's this about item-throw? As with airdodging, you also can't fastfall during your item-throw animation. But item-throw animations are fast; really fast -- faster than all your aerials. Furthermore, there's this AT few ppl ever use -- you can cancel the starting frames of your airdodge with an item-throw... and you can start an airdodge earlier in hitstun than you could start an aerial (or item-throw)! So if you have amazing techskill, and you're holding an item when you get hit, it's best to airdodge as early as possible in hitstun, cancel the airdodge with your item-throw, and then use a Jump or Special towards the stage (one that actually helps; some Specials just launch you away from the stage when you try to use them to momentum-cancel lol).

The thing is, that's true of *all* characters (that item-throws are fast, if you happen to have an item). Snake just happens to have grenades more often than anyone else lol.

So in Snake's case, afaik, his best momentum-cancelling options are this:
- If headed straight up (you didn't DI very well, did you): use an aerial and fastfall it. You might as well use your Up-Air since it'll end earliest. This is what you should do even if you're holding a grenade (uhh assuming the grenade won't explode... and actually, even then it MIGHT be optimal to cancel an airdodge with the grenade-toss and then fastfall, I'd have to do a bunch of frame-data tests to determine which is better -- or maybe you'd like to do them and post the result here!!?? cuz that'd be super cool)
- If headed towards the side kill-zone and you're holding a grenade, airdodge and cancel your airdodge with the grenade-toss and then jump towards the stage (and maybe up-B right away, tho I'm not sure about Snake)
- If headed towards the side kill-zone and you don't have a grenade, airdodge and jump towards the stage
- If headed toward the corner, you'll have to make a judgement call.

HTH!

 

[uhmuzing]

A) Not enough people ask to sticky
B) Theres still more to DI which i havent correctly explained but would if they wanted to sticky it.

Well, it should be Stickied. Its obviously very helpful and informative about a staple part of the game.

 

[.decoy]

So in Snake's case, afaik, his best momentum-cancelling options are this:
- If headed straight up (you didn't DI very well, did you): use an aerial and fastfall it. You might as well use your Up-Air since it'll end earliest. This is what you should do even if you're holding a grenade (uhh assuming the grenade won't explode... and actually, even then it MIGHT be optimal to cancel an airdodge with the grenade-toss and then fastfall, I'd have to do a bunch of frame-data tests to determine which is better -- or maybe you'd like to do them and post the result here!!?? cuz that'd be super cool)
- If headed towards the side kill-zone and you're holding a grenade, airdodge and cancel your airdodge with the grenade-toss and then jump towards the stage (and maybe up-B right away, tho I'm not sure about Snake)
- If headed towards the side kill-zone and you don't have a grenade, airdodge and jump towards the stage
- If headed toward the corner, you'll have to make a judgement call.

HTH!

just a disclaimer i am summarzing the info posted by susa and swordgard in susa's thread about di'ing as snake. when reading the following information, know that snakes airdodge lasts 40 frames (invincibility lasts til the 32nd), bair lasts 42 frames and upair lasts 47 frames.

if you are sent upwards you must bair + ff. bair is snake's fastest aerial (check susa's frame data). you don't use upair because it extends your hurtbox past the blastzone, killing you earlier than bair would have.

for some reason swordgard has discovered that fastfalling reduces horizontal knockback. take it as it is. please. with this understanding the best choice for horizontal knockback is to upair (as it doesn't extend your hurtbox across the side blast zone as bair would) then fast fall then second jump as soon as you are able to. you could airdodge but then you can't fastfall. upair being only 7 frames longer than airdodge, it was concluded that if you fastfall during upair and until you can second jump you reduce knockback more than airdodge + second jump.

on the note of items....it is unlikely that snake will be holding a grenate as, when hit, it often explodes.

if by some chance it doesn't then yes, throw it. no need to airdodge first. the throw itself is what does it, and airdodging first gives no frame advantage to my knowledge. correct me if i'm wrong. anyway, if im not, the throw ends then you jump. and yeah that works **** good. usually you won't be holding one though (the above explosion).

SuSa's thread on di as snake - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244091
SuSa's thread on frame data - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242407

 

[Redshad0w13]

i beleive snakes bair prevents him from dieing faster then his uair even tho uair is faster

 

[MysteriousSilver]

i beleive snakes bair prevents him from dieing faster then his uair even tho uair is faster

Any actual basis for that?

 

[yoshq]

Thank you decoy, I believe that information should be in the first post although I have no idea if the author is updating it or not. Also, this should DEFINITELY be stickied.

 

[.decoy]

Any actual basis for that?

it depends on the direction which you are sent. read my post above yours, or the threads i lynxd in it.

 

[infomon]

know that snakes airdodge lasts 40 frames (invincibility lasts til the 32nd), bair lasts 42 frames and upair lasts 47 frames.

Ah. As I'd mentioned, I hadn't looked at Snake's framedata myself. You are correct (assuming SuSa's correct lol).

if you are sent upwards you must bair + ff. bair is snake's fastest aerial (check susa's frame data). you don't use upair because it extends your hurtbox past the blastzone, killing you earlier than bair would have.

Cool. This should be put in the OP, then.

for some reason swordgard has discovered that fastfalling reduces horizontal knockback. take it as it is. please.

No. I did a lot of experimenting on this and never found any horizontal effect to fastfalling. I looked through your references and only found this:

It appears Fastfalling affects horizontal momentum as well, so while leaving you in a slightly worse position it is still good to fastfall, then second jump when able to.

Er, being able to fast fall reduces horizontal knockback too for some weird reason i believe. I have never actually done exact testing on that part of DI, guess i should.

So no, I'm quite sure this theory is false until someone can reliably demonstrate otherwise.

on the note of items....it is unlikely that snake will be holding a grenate as, when hit, it often explodes.

True; that's another reason it should be removed from the OP.

if by some chance it doesn't then yes, throw it. no need to airdodge first. the throw itself is what does it, and airdodging first gives no frame advantage to my knowledge. correct me if i'm wrong.

Correction: you are wrong.

Video demonstration: [Airdoding sooner than aerials in hitstun]

Discussion thread: [Item-Throw-cancelled-Airdodge Momentum-Cancelling]
^^ sigh, noone ever noticed/cared about that thread, even though it's a neat AT that applies to all characters and requires mad techskill (altho you need to be holding an item).

 

[.decoy]

so youre saying that you can airdodge before you can throw an item, but you can cancel said airdodge with a throw? if i am understanding you correctly then yes that is definitely the best.

 

[infomon]

Yep, that's right
pretty crazy, eh!?

good luck actually pulling it off tho lol

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Wait, is this also for Melee?

 

[BSP]

No, melee has actual hitstun. The DI part is in melee too, but I'm not sure about tap and Smash. I know the momentum cancelling is not in melee.

 

[B!squick]

Question: When using an aerial to get out of the first part of hitstun, do auto cancel frames matter?

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

"But first, now that you know that you will not after a horizontal or vertical hit when you take into account post DI"

This sentence makes no sense to me, you will not what? It's like the sentence is lacking a verb,

 

[llamapaste]

This should be stickied.

 

[yoshq]

I know, right?

 

[Ol-Jeb]

Fantastic! This info is very technical, but I'm sure it'll help me improve! Thank you for putting this up ^_^

 

[RATED]

I have two questions :

1st: about QCDI , if I know when the tornado when I will be at the end of tornado( when I about to PopUp) I can do down left, down , down right. so I can fall down and tech it ?

2nd: about Peach's Dair : I have a problem trying to SDI this move, what's the best direction to SDI it?

 

[Lucario1337]

Wow this might take me a while to learn...

 

[Nike.]

This really needs a bump because smashers STILL can't DI correctly. Real nice refresher.

 

[z00ted]

nike with the one year bumps

hype

 

[Jar'd]

After getting hit, you can airdodge after 14 frames, and do an aerial after 26 frames. It's not always best to do an aerial.

Best momentum canceling options.
More in depth description.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[-Mars-]

For characters like Ike and Snake that don't have fast aerials that end quick right? But for most characters it's better to do a quick aerial and fastfall correct?

 

[infomon]

For characters like Ike and Snake that don't have fast aerials that end quick right? But for most characters it's better to do a quick aerial and fastfall correct?

Yeah pretty much. Unless you're only worried about the stage ceiling (vertical killzone), in which case the fastfall is more important. Unless you actually have enough time to airdodge and then use a "brake" move (e.g. G&W bucket, wario's bike), but that situation (in which airdodge->brake would be optimal) would be rare.

 

[yoshq]

luigi is the fastest at momentum cancelling aside of mk (smirk).

so according to this, snake mainers need to start air dodging when knocked sideways? what do they do after that, ff second jump?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You do you fastfall a double jump? ~.~

When they're knocked sideways (things that have horizontal knockback, not things that send to the corner) you should probably jump or special (depending on special e.g. bucket braking) to stop the knockback momentum from pulling you to your death.

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

I thought it was tested that FF and aerial when sent horizontally doesn't help, it just puts you in a worse position.

That's the result of my testing and the Snake board's testing.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

We just said that.

 

[Zatchiel]

So... Air-dodging after knockback is better for come characters?

I normally try to momentum cancel > jump > same aerial as used previously (fastest) when I get sent horizontally. This isn't frequent, as I normally try to go at a diagonal trajectory when I get hit :/ I don't normally FF if I get hit sideways, especially with Snake or Ivy.

I still miss what this thread used to be, though I've been subscribed to this for at least a year now.

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

We just said that.

Fastfalling something was mentioned (a jump?) and I said FF doesn't help you when sent horizontally.