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A message to Smash Tournament hosts

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AlphaZealot

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How can you say that when you readily admit tournaments that aren't that big don't deserve a sticky?

In a given month there are typically between 30-40 Brawl tournaments. In that same month, typically 1, maybe 2, of those tournaments get a sticky (this would be with or without the "URC Rule").

You can't "bully the entire community" when almost the entire community wouldn't even be eligible for a sticky anyways.
 
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I don't think he is partially responsible for anything, he is responsible for EVERYTHING!

He organized a tournament, promised payouts and didn't pay out anyone. People lost a lot of money going to this event, and a lot of time training for it because they were expected returns from their investments. Plank denied them that. For that fact alone he should be shunned from the community until he pays back what he owes.

People are gonna keep stealing money from the community until someone makes an example out of them. Honestly someone from the community should have sued him, even if they didn't win the case it'd; probably scare the **** about anyone who wants to steal from the community again. It's people like you who makes this **** easier for TOs.
Plank relied on lots of Smashers to book lots of rooms and we didn't do that. We failed Plank like Plank failed us. He made a tough choice. Either owe $10,000 to Smashers or $10,000 to the hotel. The hotel would easily sue plank and he'd have to pay back that money + legal fees (and interest). Whereas for Smashers, no one sued, lol. Besides, Smashers not booking enough rooms caused this problem

If you were Plank, who would you give that $10,000 to? Could you afford it?
 

Strong Badam

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How can you say that when you readily admit tournaments that aren't that big don't deserve a sticky?

In a given month there are typically between 30-40 Brawl tournaments. In that same month, typically 1, maybe 2, of those tournaments get a sticky (this would be with or without the "URC Rule").

You can't "bully the entire community" when almost the entire community wouldn't even be eligible for a sticky anyways.
You're still avoiding the issue. The sticky rules are fair enough; only major tournaments that are expected to have relevant results are warranted a sticky. The mandatory Unity Ruleset use if a tourney is to be stickied, however, is not. The community decides what tournaments they should go to, not the URC.
 

AlphaZealot

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Plank relied on lots of Smashers to book lots of rooms and we didn't do that. We failed Plank like Plank failed us. He made a tough choice. Either owe $10,000 to Smashers or $10,000 to the hotel. The hotel would easily sue plank and he'd have to pay back that money + legal fees (and interest). Whereas for Smashers, no one sued, lol. Besides, Smashers not booking enough rooms caused this problem
I do think plank made the correct decision from his personal standpoint.

However:

In no way should there be any mention of blaming Smash players for not booking rooms. That is absurd. It is called poor planning/decision making. The Smash community is poor and they stack hotels. Every TO knows this, trying to use that as a cop-out? Blaming the community? Really? It isn't the organizer's planning fault but instead, the participants? No. That is messed up.

You're still avoiding the issue. The sticky rules are fair enough; only major tournaments that are expected to have relevant results are warranted a sticky. The mandatory Unity Ruleset use if a tourney is to be stickied, however, is not. The community decides what tournaments they should go to, not the URC.
If the community decides, then what difference does a sticky make?
 

PEEF!

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I can't tell if you're joking or just not smart. If would be someone like Dr PeePee or Ally who were owed over 1000$ from this event. It's a legitimate cases. I've seen cases on Judge Mathis won with a lot less.




How about every 80 or 100 person tournament? Or how about any tournament that would be stickyed if it had followed the URC rule set. What you are doing is a disgusting abuse of power, don't pretend that you aren't bullying the entire community to follow your rule-set.
I was kidding on the first part.

The second part I didn't say so don't put my name in the quote there and make it seem like I said it.

BTW AZ, you sound like you absolutely know that what you are doing is wrong. StrongBad is totally right.
 

-ShadowPhoenix-

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I've seen cases on Judge Mathis won with a lot less.
rofl
one time i saw an old guy who sued his neighbor for $1 because he wouldnt keep his lawn mowed...

of course he lost >.>

If the community decides, then what difference does a sticky make?
wow you're stupid
strongbad is completely right...
**** you stupid mlg *******
 

Mew2King

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a lot of smash TOs suck. winterfest, activegamers, Snes, and pound5 owes me over 6k

and yeah AZ, it's pretty obvious what you/Unity are doing is abusing your power to force people to make it a standard. You're essentially forcing people to do it, or punishing them otherwise. That's why you are making only Unity tournaments have a sticky. That's ****ed up, and a total abuse of power.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Lmfao @ AZ BLATANTLY avoiding the issue. Even the biggest ****** can tell that you're abusing your power. Just how stupid do you think people are?

:059:
 

Jolteon

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If the community decides, then what difference does a sticky make?
This is just avoiding the point completely. If, in theory, the sticky did not make a difference, then there would be no point stickying any topics whatsoever. You are indirectly affecting attendance for any TO with a good tournament that does not wish to run your rule set. That is not fair.
 

AlphaZealot

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Here is how to explain the sticky thing, as I've also done in the past in numerous places, most notably the vVv Directional Influence podcast.

Stickies are a Smashboards resource for the community. The question with the stickies are: what is best for the community. That is largely why Apex is stickied (plus its a Melee national which would deserve a sticky in its own right) because it would be a disservice to the community to otherwise not. When I say disservice, I don't mean "a small setback", I mean it would potentially cause problems with Apex (sponsors may wonder "why are you not stuck?") and it is a huge tournament, likely the biggest of the year. It is unique here.

What most of you are not seeing is why the sticky rules are good for the community. First, the overarching goal is to get tournaments to use the same ruleset. We are closer now to this goal than at any point ever in the history of the Smash community. If you want to know why this goal is good for the community then you can start to question the standards that exist in any community or game. Without a universal ruleset Smash has always been amateur hour. I'm still trying to get guys like MLG to consider picking up Smash again, but things like a universal ruleset need to be in place before it really even starts to become likely again.

Second: yes, it is a means to an end. It is a little harsh, but the reality is that it is meant to promote the community standard. You can pretend that Unity isn't standard, but I can point to countless weekends in the past few months (going back to May) where over half of the tournaments (and sometimes way more) are Unity events. Most weekends no other ruleset even repeats. It is not fair to players to have to travel to nationals and every national has a different rule, creating a home field advantage. It is terrible when people go to tournaments and don't have a clue what ruleset they are encountering. If you have actually been an active member of the Smash community for the last 3 years you have undoubtably been to a tournament and said "wait, that stage is on?", "wait, infinites are banned/allowed?", "wait, there is/is not SD rules". Again: amateur hour.

Creating a universal ruleset is a paradigm shift in the way the community operates. Will the sticky rule always exist? Probably not, it is a purpose for a transitionary period and as more and more TO's join together in the URC and work toward a single goal the purpose of the sticky rule will eventually not be needed.

Stickies are an incentive, not a right, and there have been many reasons tournaments have been stuck/not stuck in the past beyond simple thoughts like attendance. Charity events that had low attendance have been stuck. Tournaments that were suppose to be huge like GAMME were not stuck because the TO didn't look credible - yet based simply on interest it probably should have been. Some tournaments don't get stuck because there are too many tournaments already stuck or the tournaments at that point in time are pretty high quality (example, in the summer tournaments usually have more attendance, whereas in September/October they usually do not, so you would need less people in those months then you would in the summer if you were strictly going by attendance for stickies).

In summation (TL/DR):
-URC is meant to better the community in the long run
-Sticky's are a facilitator of adoption but not the single force
-The use of sticky's as a privilege with rules has always been in place
-The question really is weighing on a scale: On one hand the idea that stickies should be available to all regardless of what type/rules of tournament they run (people didn't want EVO2k8 stuck, btw) and the good that brings the community VS the goal of having everyone use the same ruleset and the good that brings the community.
 

Mew2King

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of course people are gonna use unity when you make ******** rules that cater to the "majority" of people even if it's completely unfair to the minority with no compromise at all, AND threaten them to having to use Unity or else they can't get stickied and who knows what else in the future. You can say all the excuses you want, but what is really going on is you're just abusing your power to try to make everyone follow rules the way YOU (and your biased committee) want them to be, and that is really really unfair.
 

Heartstring

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have a recommended ruleset, sure i can follow that.
dont force it AZ, dont be forcing things. this is a game which happens to have a big enough following to host tournaments so people can see whos the best. its not a government
stickies should go to massive events that we know are going to get large numbers, apex, SIIS, WHOBO, BBI, etc. are deserving of stickies. not whoever follows the recommended ruleset as the sole reason
its essentially blackmail, stop
 

AlphaZealot

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Anyone is allowed on the committee if they run a decent number of tournaments and have influence in their area. I would love to have some people on the committee who currently aren't, but most of those names refuse to do anything other then their own opinion on rules, and when it comes to making something universal you have to find compromise.

Frankly M2K you would probably be complaining regardless of the sticky issue, and in the end even without sticky's the TO's in the URC run so many tournaments it would effect you regardless.

stickies should go to massive events that we know are going to get large numbers, apex, SIIS, WHOBO, BBI, etc. are deserving of stickies. not whoever follows the recommended ruleset as the sole reason
its essentially blackmail, stop
It is not the sole reason, the ruleset + numbers + legitimacy + timing are all factors. Believe me I understand your point with the forcing things route and I'm starting to access other options going forward. However, I don't work with only short-term goals, if/when the sticky thing is rescinded, it will be part of a broader long term plan. I also have a feeling that if/when it is one day gone, that many of the people complaining will still be complaining.

The complaints are usually a distraction from the real reason they are upset, which is typically: they don't like X rule. Don't like X rule? Try to say the committee is biased. Or that the sticky thing is unfair. Or that non-TO's should have a say in things. Etc. When one issue is dealt with another will crop up - that is always the nature of the Smash community.

What I would really love is for the top-20 to 25 TO's to all come together and agree to use a single ruleset. However, some of those TO's, as I've already noted, will not under any circumstance run anything other than exactly what they believe.
 

Luigisama

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well there really is no way of telling if Stickys affect toureny attendance or not. Also it is pretty obvious no one is being forced to use the Unity ruleset. Especially since it's not like a TO is going to get shut down by the BRC while they are running the tourney. I'll lol so hard if this happens
-TO is running his tourney.
-A BRC member is in attendance
- BRC member says "what is the ruleset for this tourney?"
- TO says "not unity ruleset"
_ BRC says " I can't let you run this tourney because it is not following unity ruleset". *Tourney is stopped and everyone in attendance went for nothing*

^This isn't going to happen. The only thing that should come to mind is with people being aware that they don't have to run this ruleset at every tourney and ban mk it might divide the community. idk just as an example Absolute mk haters will only attend Unity ruleset tourney/ mk banned and refuse to attend mk legal tourneys. Vice versa Someone who mains or doesn't care about mk's cheapness only attends mk legal tourneys. I'm not sure what else could occur.
 

Heartstring

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It is not the sole reason, the ruleset + numbers + legitimacy + timing are all factors. Believe me I understand your point with the forcing things route and I'm starting to access other options going forward. However, I don't work with only short-term goals, if/when the sticky thing is rescinded, it will be part of a broader long term plan. I also have a feeling that if/when it is one day gone, that many of the people complaining will still be complaining.

The complaints are usually a distraction from the real reason they are upset, which is typically: they don't like X rule. Don't like X rule? Try to say the committee is biased. Or that the sticky thing is unfair. Or that non-TO's should have a say in things. Etc. When one issue is dealt with another will crop up - that is always the nature of the Smash community.

What I would really love is for the top-20 to 25 TO's to all come together and agree to use a single ruleset. However, some of those TO's, as I've already noted, will not under any circumstance run anything other than exactly what they believe.
ruleset shouldnt be a factor at all
heres something that needs to be translated to you, because it appears to have missed the cloud you like to sit on:
you are not driving this ship, nor is your commitee. the scene is driven by the actions of every single contributing member of this community, regardless of how insignificant they may seem. to put yourself on a pedestal and claim that you are 'the head of smash community growth' is incredibly conceited and isnt what is wanted nor needed.

Every single member is important, every decision made by every person, whether to change mains for whatever reason or to even decide on if their money can cover the price to get to the tournament, everything that is done drives this scene in a different direction, and it helps to make the community grow and find the best method of doing things.

but trying to force a ruleset on hosts, are you not effectively being detrimental to the growth of this community by trying to retrict it? i know for certain i would have never hosted a tournament if i had to abide by the rules of the unity ruleset. i am glad i hosted before it was even invented. Yes, my event flopped in a sense. i lost a large amount of money. but the experience and knowledge i gained from doing this was irreplacable. along with the knowledge that my fellow players learnt about our small community, this one single tournament helped to teach the uk community that they needed to leave the capital city more to support other events, and it taught me that i need to advertise my event much more than i did originally if its going to receive the amount of coverage i need to not make a loss.

by restricting the ruleset, you deter TO's from hosting more events and-as such-you slow down the growth of the scene. As far as im concerned about this matter. You're wrong

But, what do i know? im only a one-time host.
 

AlphaZealot

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I'm not really sure where your rant about me is coming from. However, if you are under the impression that everyone is equally important: you are wrong. They are not. A TO does more for a community then most people. Do people have to attend tournaments for the TO to even matter? Yes. But where one person is simply a participant, the other is a leader/coordinator/etc and usually puts significantly more planning and work into an event, as well as potential financial issues (look at plank). Since you have run an event you know this to be true.

Everyone does contribute. Not everyone contributes equally.
 

Heartstring

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I'm not really sure where your rant about me is coming from. However, if you are under the impression that everyone is equally important: you are wrong. They are not. A TO does more for a community then most people. Do people have to attend tournaments for the TO to even matter? Yes. But where one person is simply a participant, the other is a leader/coordinator/etc and usually puts significantly more planning and work into an event, as well as potential financial issues (look at plank). Since you have run an event you know this to be true.

Everyone does contribute. Not everyone contributes equally.
yeah, TO's do more and i totally agree there. but would someone continue to host if people didnt bother to do their own legwork and get to the event aswell as help spead news of an event? or course not. everyone plays a significant enough part.
what im getting at is that youve come under the illusion that youre the big fish in the community pond. come on im talking man to man now. dont you see that youre essentially being detrimental to the community by enforcing laws onto it? you call yourself head of smash community growth but surely that means you should be trying to make it grow faster! a farmer doesnt spray his crops with bleach and keep them from receiving water and sunlight. he puts pesticides on them and builds intricate waterways to make sure every single crop gets what they need to grow to their potential. if you believe this hierarchy youre implanted into your own mind then look at how your 'lessers' are taking this change in methods. its obviously not helping, so surely its time to change direction?
 

AlphaZealot

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Your argument is that the sticky rule is stunting growth and stopping people from hosting tournaments: I don't see it, there is no evidence of that. Even if there were evidence, it would be hard to pinpoint the cause: is it the sticky rule? MK? Just an old game? etc. Ultimately as I have already mentioned having a standard/universal ruleset in the community (at least the NA community) will allow for more growth in the future then continued fragmentation.

I've never stated, really, anything about myself in any of this. The "Head of Smash Community Growth" title came from the GM of Smashboards over a year ago, and like every title that has ever appeared under my name: I have never written a single one of them (aka the many custom titles you see around). All of them have been assigned and/or automated. You and others have asked questions for which I have answered and I explained the long-term plan and purpose of both having a united front for the ruleset as well as how the sticky helps achieve that goal. I have also explained that the sticky issue will be re-evaluated going forward.

The hierarchy already existed: all the URC is, is an organization of that hierarchy toward a shared goal. I have never used words like "lessers" or anything of the sort. Somehow you seem to believe there is some ego-centric driven goal here where there is no such thing.
 

ihatejuice69

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Cutting through the bull****, stickies serve a single purpose, which is allowing more people to see the more popular tournaments which they might be interested in.

This thing about how you want to centralize the ruleset so that MLG will look at picking up Brawl again is ridiculous. There is nobody working at MLG tallying up all of the stickied and non-stickied tournaments to see what rulesets are more common.

To put it simply:

Tournament A is very big, expects 500 people, does not use URC ruleset.

Tournament B is smaller, expects 200 people, uses URC ruleset.

Even though tournament A is bigger, you will ENDORSE tournament B OVER tournament A, simply because YOU prefer what the TO is doing, despite the fact that TO A put in a LOT more time and effort to facilitate more people. And that is ****ed up.
 

Heartstring

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Your argument is that the sticky rule is stunting growth and stopping people from hosting tournaments: I don't see it, there is no evidence of that. Even if there were evidence, it would be hard to pinpoint the cause: is it the sticky rule? MK? Just an old game? etc. Ultimately as I have already mentioned having a standard/universal ruleset in the community (at least the NA community) will allow for more growth in the future then continued fragmentation.

I've never stated, really, anything about myself in any of this. The "Head of Smash Community Growth" title came from the GM of Smashboards over a year ago, and like every title that has ever appeared under my name: I have never written a single one of them (aka the many custom titles you see around). All of them have been assigned and/or automated. You and others have asked questions for which I have answered and I explained the long-term plan and purpose of both having a united front for the ruleset as well as how the sticky helps achieve that goal. I have also explained that the sticky issue will be re-evaluated going forward.

The hierarchy already existed: all the URC is, is an organization of that hierarchy toward a shared goal. I have never used words like "lessers" or anything of the sort. Somehow you seem to believe there is some ego-centric driven goal here where there is no such thing.
of course you dont see it, its your own idea, no-one ever wants to think that they were wrong at any point, myself included.
and you seem have to growth confused with attendance. they are related but not the same. by growth of a community, it should mean the maturing of the scene.ano old reject can get people to come to events (myself as an example, i suck at this game but ive managed to introduce about 10 people to the offline scene since i started attending). but pulling typical politician stunts, its not going to allow it to grow normally.

if you want people to start believing in your 'position' then listen to the people, the majority of people here that think something overwhelms the URC's opinion by sheer numbers. if you want people to start believing in you then abolish the sticky rule, now. you do that and people might begin to listen a little more before flying in with hatred. you have to remember that you have to give before you can receive, the method used to implement the urc and the language style is akin to dictatorship

and with this im going to bed, im trying to use my best debating efforts and its 2am. its not happening
 

Mew2King

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Dude regardless of how you put it, you shouldn't be FORCING your ruleset among other players. It should be a recommended ruleset, not have ANY additional punishments like oh, if you don't run unity then YOU GET NO STICKY. That's a punishment for now following you guys like obedient dogs
 
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Wow, I just realized how similar this is to politics. Especially around the theme of a more or less central controlling power.
 

Master WGS

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Wait, not that I think they're right with what they're doing, but aren't the popular tournaments the ones that would get stickied? You know, the ones that'll be on the top of the page regardless?
 

Sinji

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Tournament organizers need to have independence. The fact that people listen to organizers is ridiculous. In my tourneys down here, we play based off of what all of the players feel comfortable about. We legalize Corneria, Mute City e.t.c as counter picks. Seems fair. Everyone wins. They say "the votes count", but in this case it is wrong. Essentially, the majority of players wanted to ban MetaKnight because they blame his tools and attributes in the game. They do not understand the character as much as metaknight mains. The hypocritical players that are now defending the fact that metaknight is banned should feel ashamed. Just because the votes are clear that metaknght should be banned shouldn't mean he should be banned. Think outside of the box users. For example. Hypothetically speaking if they ban Kongo Jungle 64, does that mean we shouldn't play on that stage in local tourneys? We are all in the motion and we need to think outside of the box. This is for both the Melee and Brawl community. I can see the corruption from both sides.
 

Hax

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Well if you still expect him to pay back an insanely large debt that the community is at least partly responsible for, then you're really just not being reasonable. People try to get DJ and PB&J banned because they are able, but not willing, to pay back their debts. Plank is willing, but not able to pay back his debts, and he is no longer a threat for other players to lose their money. Whereas DJ and PB&J have shown a pattern of behavior where they consistently borrow money and don't pay it back, and allowing them to attend tournaments would allow this behavior to continue.
you don't know anything. in a conversation I had with plank ~2 months ago (i was finally able to catch him on AIM) he said, word for word, "i don't owe any of you people anything LMAO". plank has no intentions of paying anyone back..

as for the rulesets, lol @ enforcing a uniform one. let TO's come up with their own stage lists, ESPECIALLY when MBR members who know nothing about smash are standardizing stages like brinstar and rainbow cruise

for those who don't know jungle japes is a legal teams stage in the new melee ruleset coming out this month LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
 

Battlecow

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Not that my opinion matters at all, but Plank CLEARLY owes people money, and I'm WTF'ing hardcore at the number of people who defend him. Smashers crammed into hotel rooms? Yeah? Did he say beforehand, "If you guys cram into hotel rooms, I'm not paying anyone any money"? Do we even know if the hotel took his entire $10,000 (how the **** could there be that much of a disparity between what Plank expected and what happened?)
 

JPOBS

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How can you say that when you readily admit tournaments that aren't that big don't deserve a sticky?

In a given month there are typically between 30-40 Brawl tournaments. In that same month, typically 1, maybe 2, of those tournaments get a sticky (this would be with or without the "URC Rule").

You can't "bully the entire community" when almost the entire community wouldn't even be eligible for a sticky anyways.
I've never seen such blatant avoiding of the problem. Why don't you just man up and admit you're full of s***.

All you have to do is get rid of the stupid rule about "support URC or u will neve rget stickied" and everyone will be happy. Let tournies be stickied on their own merits (like it always has been), and not whether they have a certain ruleset.
 

frotaz37

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you don't know anything. in a conversation I had with plank ~2 months ago (i was finally able to catch him on AIM) he said, word for word, "i don't owe any of you people anything LMAO". plank has no intentions of paying anyone back...
Taking quotes out of context is pointless, especially if it was an argument (which judging by your views on the situation, I imagine it was).

Legally, he's absolutely correct. Whether you like it or not. Yeah it sucks but smash tournament hosts aren't signing a contract that says they will give money to anyone, just as the participants aren't signing contracts that say they are guaranteed money.

And suggesting that every TO absolutely MUST NOT allow him to enter their tournaments is completely ridiculous. I sympathize with the kids who didn't get paid but think about what you're asking. It's totally nuts dude.
 

Mew2King

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you don't know anything. In a conversation i had with plank ~2 months ago (i was finally able to catch him on aim) he said, word for word, "i don't owe any of you people anything lmao". Plank has no intentions of paying anyone back
wow
....................

I've never seen such blatant avoiding of the problem. Why don't you just man up and admit you're full of s***.

All you have to do is get rid of the stupid rule about "support URC or u will neve rget stickied" and everyone will be happy. Let tournies be stickied on their own merits (like it always has been), and not whether they have a certain ruleset.
also DO THIS and you won't piss everybody off NEARLY AS MUCH @ Alphazealot

(and similar stuff, in other words, leave it at RECOMMENDED RULESET, instead of FORCING it upon everyone)
 

KageMurphy

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How does this guy not understand favoring your rule set for stickies is not going to be well received and ****ed up? Everyone really should ignore these clowns.

:017:
 

Keitaro

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Blah blah blah. Bicker bicker.

Tired of it. Even when I try to avoid the debates I still see it. Worse is when people post it on facebook.

Inb4thendont****ingclickit
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
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Messages
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The sticky thing seems to be a bit much. The way I see it, Smash World Forums is simply a venue through which players can get involved in the tournament scene, based on the kind of tournaments they want to attend, that is, what kind of ruleset they are willing to play by. If they can't find the kind of tournament they want to attend, they may not attend any tournament. The salient point is that ruleset success should be driven by player demand and for that system to function, the SWF staff needs to be disinterested when deciding what rulesets they promote. The Unity Ruleset as a prerequisite of being promoted by SWF removes disinterest from the equation. This is unique from the GAMME scenario, where there were concerns whether the tournament would even occur. If two equally reputable TOs host Unity and non-Unity rulesets, but the non-Unity tourney gets more demand, then that demand won't be reflected in which tournament gets promoted.

Essentially, all rulesets should be treated equally by the SWF staff. If the URC wants to create a more well-policed community, and if that idea gains traction, and generates higher demand as a result, then they deserve to get promoted. But right now, it's premature to give the Unity Ruleset viability that it has not established.

Now, if the URC wants to start up their own website for promoting tournaments with their ruleset in them, that's totally their call, and I encourage them to do so. But SWF is not their own promotional venue. It is at its core player-driven, and IMO it should remain that way.
 

-Ran

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Baton Rouge
The URC was the brain child of JV, Brawl Back Room Leadership, and the rest of the Smashboards administration. To be blunt, Smashboards is the URC's website. Not that we own it [MLG does], but rather that we are a part of it.
 

vVv Rapture

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Writing Team
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I remember people calling the recommended ruleset a joke and not worth having. So I can understand the push for a unified one. And I've said my comments about this already numerous times on DI, I don't want to be redundant.

But yeah, just saying.
 
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