Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Dabuz]

ok, so after playing anti, joe, and renegade in this, i have pretty much solidified my opinion on 1.1. 1.1 seems to make the risk/reward system more balanced, edge-guarding is now easier and worthwhile, with characters like MK actually being possible to edgeguard (solely due to increased hitstun making it less likely for mk to recover too high).

But the fact of the matter is that more multihit moves can be DIed out of is a turnoff, recoveries for some characters are now ****ed, and this will reduce legal CP stages if stages are affected by 1.1. in the end, this will probably do no more than change balance and not actually make brawl more balanced, and there will be less gay **** for people to whine about. (CGs/infinites come to mind)

The main questions/ concerns are: does mk get even better or worse from 1.1? and does snake become too strong or does he become balanced because knocking him offstage makes him a lot easier to kill?

while i noted more cons than pro, the pros i feel outweigh the cons, the real deciding factor for me is how does this affect MK in comparison to the metagame, and how much of the community would be in support of this, i'd give this about 2 months more of testing before making a final community decision, so about a week after the end of the current mlg circuit is when the community consensus should be made

also, we need more high/ top level players testing this out, as far as i know, the only top level players to have even tried this and make any comments/ opinions are: anti, ally, and DEHF, step it up players! Only a small group of people are taking this seriously ATM. Otherwise this will just fall into obscurity, if any of you people know top/high level players, get them on this ****!



~~~~message approved by dabuz

 

[JOE!]

Also, something to look at: "flubbed/weak" hits of moves

Was playign around with Yoshi (my on again, off again main of sorts) and his Nair is just *that* much more awesome now that the sex kick portion does more KB/stun...

 

[solecalibur]

I'm seriously baffled at how many people are supporting this, but temp banning MK is an unspeakable heretical crime.

WTF Smash community, you make no sense.

This
You just post what I think most of of the time

I still dont think this will become into effect , way to many changes to the game
"gay" is gone but welcome to competitive gaming , I'll def still try this but for the metagame to really develop and see who is broken and who isnt , who gets nerf'd and who has a broken combo , and metaknight

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm seriously baffled at how many people are supporting this, but temp banning MK is an unspeakable heretical crime.

WTF Smash community, you make no sense.

Change inside the game's mechanics that rebalances certain things >> outside rule that removes the most popular character in the game

 

[JOE!]

*crunches numbahs*

so, from the snake data Dribble got, it seems that Snake dies 19% (not in-game %) earlier...

Even though there was variation in the % between 1.0 and 1.1 kills, it is a close enough margin to wonder if that applies globally?

 

[Sharky]

why is something like this getting so much support? o.O

 

[z00ted]

Because alot of top players were interested in it near the OP.

 

[Two-Ell]

Lol that's not my reason for interest. I just played it and honestly it didn't feel like a bad idea to test. This and yours might be the two primary reasons though Ill lol.

 

[Life]

I played it with a couple CPUs, and at first it didn't seem different.

Then I realized.

Sonic can kill now.

Nothing more I say on the subject should be taken seriously as I'm bound to be massively biased.

 

[B!squick]

A majority of tournies aren't going to change the ratio, so why should any? Wouldn't it feel weird to play in another tourny using the normal ratio and vice versa? It's not the same game with higher damage. Are we just going to split the community into 1.1 and 1.0 players? Will 1.1 blend?

 

[HeroMystic]

A majority of tournies aren't going to change the ratio, so why should any? Wouldn't it feel weird to play in another tourny using the normal ratio and vice versa? It's not the same game with higher damage. Are we just going to split the community into 1.1 and 1.0 players? Will 1.1 blend?

The first step is always doing something different. If 1.1 proves to be viable and/or better than 1.0, then it'll grab people's attention. This goes with just about any type of change.

Brawl+ got a large amount of attention while it was still up, and the only reason why it didn't get bigger was because it was a mod. Changing the damage ratio is way more legit.

I'm neutral on the matter until things get thoroughly tested per character. I doubt this'll change planking or cause Metaknight to drop from S-tier, but it could cause the gap between tiers to lessen.

 

[etecoon]

meta knight would never drop from S tier even if he were factually significantly worse than a few other characters, he's in peoples heads too much. we already see this with snake where diddy and falco are clearly better than him but they haven't established themselves deep within peoples psyches the way snake did in 2008. MK will always be brawl's boogeyman : p

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

meta knight would never drop from S tier even if he were factually significantly worse than a few other characters, he's in peoples heads too much. we already see this with snake where diddy and falco are clearly better than him but they haven't established themselves deep within peoples psyches the way snake did in 2008. MK will always be brawl's boogeyman : p

how is diddy and falco clearly better than snake? the fact that the top snake outperforms the top diddy and the top falco should say something.

 

[Tesh]

MK is good at too many things to be taken down by a global rule change. Next stop...handicap settings.

 

[B!squick]

Well, besides killing and dieing sooner, it wont affect Bowser. Jab cancels may very well be affected, but few Bowser players use it anyway.

 

[etecoon]

how is diddy and falco clearly better than snake?

better frame data, better stage control, better trap evasion, snake's weakness vs edge and juggle traps being probably the biggest factor. he may live until 160%+ consistently but every time he goes into the air you should be dealing way more damage to him than most other characters anyway. his camping game is also very reliant on the opponent approaching him more so than diddy or falco, grenades are very easy to avoid if you aren't trying to close distance at the same time, snake is easier to time out

the fact that the top snake outperforms the top diddy and the top falco should say something.

it says that ally is a better player than them and that snake is still viable


on the subject of 1.1, I have to say it's pretty fun so far but that might be because it's newish where as I've had 2 years to get sick of 1.0 lol

 

[Flutter NiTE]

my votes as far as MK:

Go with 1.1 DR change, or ban the B Button

 

[B!squick]

Sadly gents, this isn't a tier list discussion.

 

[etecoon]

Sadly gents, this isn't a tier list discussion.

it's relevant if you want to make the argument that you're changing the game for balance reasons

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Sadly gents, this isn't a tier list discussion.

True, stay on topic so we can get this in the 4.0 ruleset

 

[B!squick]

Balance doesn't matter. If it did, Bowser would still get auto wins from a Bowser-cide and a ledge grab limit would be in effect.

But I digress.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Balance doesn't matter. If it did, Bowser would still get auto wins from a Bowser-cide and a ledge grab limit would be in effect.

But I digress.

The good news is, we aren't changing this for a specific character, we're changing it because the game overall feels and plays better. Frankly it feels less buggy and weird, multi-hit moves connect more easily unless DI'd out of (which is easier), edgeguarding is easier and players die early. My average game in 1.1 is 4 minutes or less.

This is all opinion of course, but much of it is the very reason people hated brawl in the first place when it came out. If anyone would have pointed out that 1.1 did this stuff in the first week, we'd probably be using it now (granted, that's a week).

 

[B!squick]

One thing that doesn't win this idea points is that it's been brought up in the past. Also, I don't think frame data gathers are going to support starting over from scratch unless there happens to be a nice easy formula to figuring out new hitstun.

Has anyone from the BBR posted their thoughts on this?

Great sig SFP, by the way. That's totally something I'd expect Inui, the best Ike player, to say.

All in all, I'm all for getting rid of infinites and making the games go quicker. I just may try it if I ever get around to setting up my own tourny.

 

[HeroMystic]

One thing that doesn't win this idea points is that it's been brought up in the past. Also, I don't think frame data gathers are going to support starting over from scratch unless there happens to be a nice easy formula to figuring out new hitstun.

Has anyone from the BBR posted their thoughts on this?

If I remember correctly, the idea has always been immediately shut down until now. Persistence is key to change. I can see the Smash Researchers wallowing in despair though.

Pierce7D(the sexiest BBRoomer) commented in saying he's all for testing, but not implementing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Random thoughts: at low percents Jigglypuff is seriously very scary. You can weak fair them to about 75% toward the blast line (true combo) and then either footstool or strong fair them for a gimp.

Characters with follow-ups are NOT nerfed except in very special circumstances. Follow-ups are actually easier before 50%, and after 70% you're pretty close to death anyway. In melee, it wasn't the hitstun (mostly) that made combos possible (there's actually not that much more than 1.1 brawl although there is slightly more) it was the fact that air dodging sent you into freefall and you couldn't airdodge during the tumble animation. Think melee or smash 64 where combos stop being as realistic near death because every attack is launching you outwards.

When 2link said the hitstun helped Samus' projectiles a little, he wasn't kidding. Each projectile is scarier, and knocks you back to very uncomfortable places. They're as easy as ever to power shield though. Samus' jab combo now links (yay), and she kills pretty early, which is a surprise.

Ike is craaaazy. There's so much more than consistent jab->utilts. He just destroys you on a read or two.

Snake is very polarizing, so I'll confirm here that he does seem to kill very early. This isn't actually a problem to me, since early deaths from hard hits happened in Melee pretty frequently and no one complained, and also because Snake's downsides are very profound in 1.1. This makes him a character with hard strengths and weaknesses that good players will need to learn to take advantage of or avoid. His up tilt kills at around 75% on lights, which is yes pretty early. However, his poor landing game is more evident than ever and off-stage he is practically minced meat. Plus, Snake himself now dies earlier as well.

Peach is great. Down Smash's individual hits now link a little more easily, forward throw kills at around 140-150 from the edge, which is pretty late but it basically gives Peach a move that is guaranteed to kill eventually with no set-up or hard read (just a grab), something she definitely needed. Turnips have more hitstun just like all projectiles and have awesome set-ups (especially into usmash from a glide toss!). Peach's edgeguarding is better than ever.

Luigi's jab->up+b now works consistently on most of the cast and kills at around 40%. Luigi is very deadly in general with nice low percent combos and a fsmash that can cell from the edge of stages at like 60% with surprise DI.

There are weird things with Mario's cape... will most more about that later. Mario's dtilt is safe on hit and combos to utilt.

 

[Dabuz]

one thing i feel is worth noting, the increased shield knockback makes a few more attacks safe on block, IDK exactly who is affected by this, but its a big enough difference to keep in mind

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

one thing i feel is worth noting, the increased shield knockback makes a few more attacks safe on block, IDK exactly who is affected by this, but its a big enough difference to keep in mind

Yeah I said this earlier, shieldstun makes shielding less safe. Sheiks' jab is safe on block I think.

Charizard is another big winner. His fair gimps SO WELL and he kills SO EARLY, he's a total monster, but is easy to hit. Think Snake, I guess.

Ivysaur has even improved, with her moves linking a little better together and her projectile gaining some hitstun.

Squirtle is awesome, better than ever for reasons that are likely obvious. Amazing gimp potential from squirtle. Fatigue's effect is lessoned overall because kills are so much earlier anyway.

Fox is awesome, nair->fsmash true combo is too good.

 

['V']

I'm gonna experiment with this setting at a tourney later today. I might have a few results to share.

 

[Dabuz]

anyone feel like this seems to be a soft-core brawl-?

 

[EPsilon933]

anyone feel like this seems to be a soft-core brawl-?

Nah, to me it feels like a combo-less version of Melee.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth can ken combo jigglypuff (and other lights) at early percents.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

This is such a good idea...

Nado is nerfed

CGs are nerfed, if not gone.

Nado is nerfed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nado is only nerfed in the sense that initial DI is way more effective, right?

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Nado is only nerfed in the sense that initial DI is way more effective, right?

pretty much, they have to go in the air with Nado just to keep them in, depending on who they are against though. Fast fallers / heavies, not so much.

 

[Matt07]

Mario's dtilt is safe on hit and combos to utilt.

There is a use for d-tilt !

 

[Ripple]

careful with who you say is "better" SMFP. everyone SEEMS to get better( besides the chaingrabbers), but others are going to benefit much more.

 

[Exalted]

I wanna try this out with someone over WiFi.

(lolwifi)

 

[Renegade TX2000]

careful with who you say is "better" SMFP. everyone SEEMS to get better( besides the chaingrabbers), but others are going to benefit much more.

what he said, it's just with whatever low tiers that are mentioned in the future for 1.1 have a better chance at winning.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Played with 1.1 with Mikeray on Wifi.

It was fun. Hard to tell what's really different better from just a few friendlies on Wifi where I was going random *** characters most of the time. Snake can be a monster, but I honestly enjoyed it.

 

[solecalibur]

This is such a good idea...



CGs are nerfed, if not gone.

I think Marth is the only one that D3 cant grab , I know falco loses a couple people to CG and I think pika can CG also

what he said, it's just with whatever low tiers that are mentioned in the future for 1.1 have a better chance at winning.

If everything is so easy to SDI , Ness is getting nerf'd pretty badly