Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Raziek]

I'm seriously baffled at how many people are supporting this, but temp banning MK is an unspeakable heretical crime.

WTF Smash community, you make no sense.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm seriously baffled at how many people are supporting this, but temp banning MK is an unspeakable heretical crime.

WTF Smash community, you make no sense.

LoL this is so true.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I'm seriously baffled at how many people are supporting this, but temp banning MK is an unspeakable heretical crime.

WTF Smash community, you make no sense.

I believe it is since one is a character specific change and the other is a global change.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Not all of us are against a temp ban.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I believe it is since one is a character specific change and the other is a global change.

What is a more drastic change though?

 

[z00ted]

Peach is like high tier with this ratio.

 

[Xebenkeck]

The therory craft in this thread is ridiculous, multi-hit moves are not instantly DI able, you still have to be good at di to even get out, they still work.

Secondly someone said the knockback affects characters equally which is a lie, every move has a set amount of knockback and set amount of growth, only the set knockback moves are affected, a easy way to prove this is with Ness. AT 2.0 Ness fthrow is an instant kill because ness fthrow has a high set knockback and a very low growth. AND ness bthrow at 2.0 doesn't instantly kill because it has a very low intial knockback, and a ridiculous growth rate, therefore it is largly unaffected by the damage ratio. So every character will have there own changes, some more than others, which is what needs to be tested.

HAving to relearn the game is a stupid argument, no matter the damage ratio each characters stratagies will remain in tact, falco will still lazer camp, fox still plays hit and run, marth still will space like a *****, none of this will change, the only thing that will change is the risk reward value of moves, which isn't relearning the entire game like some are saying.

Also going back to my second point, mmultihit moves almost always have low intial knockback, this is why zeldas usmash will still work at 2.0, fox's dair isn't changed much if at all at 1.1 in terms of its combos and knockback for example.

Many things are still intact despite what people think, ganons chain chokes and combos are not affected. grab releases aren't, pika dthrow on fox works but only till 40%, ike's jab, etc.

I will also add jab locks are gone and tornado is no longer spammable

PS-i played melee exclusivly at 2.0, ffa because that is how i played before i found competetive smash, so i know a bit about its mechanics.

 

[Thinkaman]

Secondly someone said the knockback affects characters equally which is a lie, every move has a set amount of knockback and set amount of growth, only the set knockback moves are affected, a easy way to prove this is with Ness. AT 2.0 Ness fthrow is an instant kill because ness fthrow has a high set knockback and a very low growth. AND ness bthrow at 2.0 doesn't instantly kill because it has a very low intial knockback, and a ridiculous growth rate, therefore it is largly unaffected by the damage ratio.

Actually growth is affected the same. This is the opposite of what I initially thought and told to Ren when he first mentioned it to me. I researched it before posting in this thread.

Note that Ness b-throw is an intant-kill at x2.0 knockbakc at around 40% damage on most characters.

HAving to relearn the game is a stupid argument, no matter the damage ratio each characters stratagies will remain in tact, falco will still lazer camp, fox still plays hit and run, marth still will space like a *****, none of this will change, the only thing that will change is the risk reward value of moves, which isn't relearning the entire game like some are saying.

It's important not to exaggerate this side of it either way. A lot changes, but not everything and most of what changes doesn't change all that much. It's still a broad, global shake-up of most decisions in the game to some degree. Dismissing that or exaggerating the amount of change is creates are equally stupid.

(That's not addressed to BestNess, but to everyone.)

 

[Xebenkeck]

Note that Ness b-throw is an intant-kill at x2.0 knockbakc at around 40% damage on most characters.

I think that just proves what i said, ness backthrow at 0% at 2.0 goes significantly farther than at 1.0, but isn't instant kill, so it make sense that it kills at 40% because i believe
knockback = Intial Knockback+(Growth X Percent). Ness bthrow should kill at 40% because it multiplys the growth of bthrow to 40% then to the intial knockback(which is significantly higher), so the killing power would be significantly better.

Ness bthrow kills at roughly 120% at 1.0, so it makes sense that it kills at 40% at 2.0

At least i think this is how it works

I should add that the reason tornado is nerfed is because it has very little growth.

 

[Judo777]

The therory craft in this thread is ridiculous, multi-hit moves are not instantly DI able, you still have to be good at di to even get out, they still work.

Secondly someone said the knockback affects characters equally which is a lie, every move has a set amount of knockback and set amount of growth, only the set knockback moves are affected, a easy way to prove this is with Ness. AT 2.0 Ness fthrow is an instant kill because ness fthrow has a high set knockback and a very low growth. AND ness bthrow at 2.0 doesn't instantly kill because it has a very low intial knockback, and a ridiculous growth rate, therefore it is largly unaffected by the damage ratio. So every character will have there own changes, some more than others, which is what needs to be tested.

HAving to relearn the game is a stupid argument, no matter the damage ratio each characters stratagies will remain in tact, falco will still lazer camp, fox still plays hit and run, marth still will space like a *****, none of this will change, the only thing that will change is the risk reward value of moves, which isn't relearning the entire game like some are saying.

Also going back to my second point, mmultihit moves almost always have low intial knockback, this is why zeldas usmash will still work at 2.0, fox's dair isn't changed much if at all at 1.1 in terms of its combos and knockback for example.

Many things are still intact despite what people think, ganons chain chokes and combos are not affected. grab releases aren't, pika dthrow on fox works but only till 40%, ike's jab, etc.

I will also add jab locks are gone and tornado is no longer spammable

PS-i played melee exclusivly at 2.0, ffa because that is how i played before i found competetive smash, so i know a bit about its mechanics.

Interesting. Wouldn't MK's Shuttle Loop be ridiculous tho? Cause it has very high base knock back? Also learning the risk reward values for moves and learning when they are safe is a humongous part of the game. People are still always learning what moves can punish what and what moves cant be punished on proper spacing. Thats like one of the biggest parts of smash.

 

[Chuee]

I think it's funny how this was introduced to remove certain things we though made the game less balanced.
Yet D3 can still smallstep CG DK
All GR infinites/CGs still exist
ICs infinite still exists.
So basically we remove 1 infinite from the game with this and turn it into a smallstep CG, remove 2 long CGs (pika & wario) that only worked on a small amount of the cast, remove CGs/low % combos that were never even bad in the first place, and increase knockback?
lol

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

in something like what chuee said, if people have so much of an issue with small step chain grabs, just ban them like the (b)east coast does.

Why the global change.

My personal other main change would be to change the counterpick list for the East coast to not have both Brinstar and Rainbow.

 

[Ripple]

Interesting. Wouldn't MK's Shuttle Loop be ridiculous tho? Cause it has very high base knock back? Also learning the risk reward values for moves and learning when they are safe is a humongous part of the game. People are still always learning what moves can punish what and what moves cant be punished on proper spacing. Thats like one of the biggest parts of smash.

the onlt thing people will relearn is that faster/weaker moves will now have more reward. and slower stronger moves will ave an insane reward.

also, EVERYTHING IS AFFECTED THE SAME. EVERY MOVE'S KNOCKBACK IS INCREASED BY 20%!

NESS' B-THROW IS **** AT 0%, AND 120% OF **** IS STILL ****. NESS' F-THROW AT 0% IS AWESOME, AND 120% OF AWESOME IS EVEN MORE AWESOME.

HOWEVER

NESS' B-THROW IS AWESOME AT 100%, AND 120% OF AWESOME IS STILL AWESOME. NESS' F-THROW AT 100% IS ****, AND 120% OF **** IS EVEN MORE ****.

also, please stop talking raziek and almostlegendary, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. people are still behind the MK ban, we have done all the research we can do on the subject besides gather more and more tournament results. only 55% of the community wants him banned which isn't a majority and the BBR is not behind it so people deal with it. and not EVERYONE is behind this, people re just interested in the idea of BALANCE.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

All GR infinites/CGs still exist

part of that is simply the design flaw for the characters in question, they just happen to release in such a way that other cast members can take advantage of such effects. Goes to show how pro active hal labs was in game balance.

Spoiler

they werent at all hint

 

[False]

This is definitely an interesting thought, but unfortunately this suggestion has no future. It'd change the game-play drastically and we all know MLG hates making a new rule set.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

It'd change the game-play drastically

looks like someone didnt read the whole thread

 

[Chuee]

Pretty sure GR stuff makes up more than 10% of the gay stuff people complain about though.
OP says 1.1 suposedly removes 90% of the gay stuff in brawl.
ICs infinites are still here. I see people complain about that.
MK is still just as gay. I see a lot of people complain about him.
GR shenanigans are still here. See people complain about this.
The only things I see people complain about that 1.1 removed are.
D3 infinites. Removed his only true infinite and turned it into a smallstep (lol)
Pika's CGs. Sortof gay, but only on a few characters
Wario's Dthrow CGs. Same as pika's except it works on less characters.

 

[DarkPikmin]

guys just play brawl minus

 

[Vyse]

Not much to chime in with but;

btw peeps if you've played 1.1 already you'll notice that alot of low tiers seem viable now and that this makes the roster have more variety in competitive play. For right now we need to do more testing before seeming becomes believing

Saw this a few pages back. Keep in mind we all thought the same thing when Brawl first came out.

My personal thoughts are:

1) That unless it stops planking, there's no reason to change.
2) People are used to 1.0 damage even before they know there is a competitive scene.

Heavy Brawl would be amazing. lmao.

 

[AllyKnight]

D3 can still CG and Falco can't. other than that it's like the same.

 

[jbandrew]

I think this should be tested... I'm going to play with my friend like this and see how it works out. This sounds like it can make alot more characters viable, but it also sounds like it'd make people play gayer. hmm.

 

[Ripple]

I think this should be tested... I'm going to play with my friend like this and see how it works out. This sounds like it can make alot more characters viable, but it also sounds like it'd make people play gayer. hmm.

see here's my thoughts, people won't plank at all because while you're on the ledge you are vulnerable (nobody can PP). why would you ever risk going off stage and avoiding all conflict while the opponent is assumingly on stage and throwing projectiles that are 20% stronger? you make 1 mistake against snake and you are dead. what a waste of a stock. you might as well attack them.

 

[Raziek]

1) That unless it stops planking, there's no reason to change.

This times 1000.

 

[jbandrew]

see here's my thoughts, people won't plank at all because while you're on the ledge you are vulnerable (nobody can PP). why would you ever risk going off stage and avoiding all conflict while the opponent is assumingly on stage and throwing projectiles that are 20% stronger? you make 1 mistake against snake and you are dead. what a waste of a stock. you might as well attack them.

This is true... this would essentially stop MK from running away a little more and actually force players to fight each other! It basically makes landing a hit more rewarding and deadly.. which is how this game was meant to be played; you're meant to HIT each other.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I've been playing 1.1 today and it plays dramatically differently than 1.0 in practice. It's hard to explain, you just have to try it for a few hours.

 

[Ripple]

I've been playing 1.1 today and it plays dramatically differently than 1.0 in practice. It's hard to explain, you just have to try it for a few hours.

mind telling me anything specific? I'm working on this with ren

 

[Renegade TX2000]

yo ripple i'm up for playing a few

edit:::

Hey supermodel from paris what's ya aim?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

First off, I get a "slow melee" kind of vibe with it. A lot of things truly combo that didn't before and vice versa. Shieldstun is higher, so shielding isn't as safe. For instance, as Captain Falcon I was unable to grab Sheik OOS when he jabbed me.

Things stop combo-ing at around 40-50%. At 70%, you have to start worrying about dying, because depending on the character you're up against, it's arealistic possibility. It is also possible to live to 130% or higher, if you avoid kill moves well, which is possible because Brawl is still relatively campy.

Projectiles are much more effective due to the slightly higher shieldstun and hitstun.

Gimping is really really easy and effective.

Squirtle is A tier.

I dunno, you can IM me if you want to talk about it at "risemix." I'll be up for a while. We can also try a few on wifi if you want.

 

[Dabuz]

IDK about 1.1, I played it, doesn't seem to change much, some characters are more viable (like shiek, mario, DK, in general characters that have good offstage games or lack low knockback move followups) and some characters actually lose some viability (olimar, ZSS, pretty much anyone that relies on move follow ups, abusing long range attacks, and on DIing up in order to recover; because of added hitstun).

It changes a lot of low % grab combos and reduces a good amount of follow ups, but greatly increases the reward of going aggro and trying for offstage gimping. I wouldn't mind seeing how this would change the competitive scene but its too early to say if it would make brawl a better or worse competitive game.



edit: also, anyone wanna friendly with 1.1 for a little on wifi? hit me up on aim: dabuz3

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS is way better, dabuz.

 

[Ripple]

AIM doesn't work for me for some reason. skype does though.

panda.besar

also, olimar is better imo

 

[Dabuz]

supermodel...oh yeah, forgot the hit stun makes her stun things last longer

and no, olimar is much worse, he loses 0% guaranteed combos, added hit stun and knockback makes performing DI necessary to survive...much less effective, he actually loses some good follow ups, all he gains is an absurdly powerful upsmash

i wouldn't be surprised for lucario to lose a bit of viability, he will be killed even earlier, and the knockback increase won't make it up for him, i doubt he still has a fair WOP, once again, it will be harder for him to recover with more hitstun, his grabs at low % won't put opponents in as bad of positions because they will be farther away


also, still searching for someone with aim to play me >_>

 

[jbandrew]

supermodel...oh yeah, forgot the hit stun makes her stun things last longer

and no, olimar is much worse, he loses 0% guaranteed combos, added hit stun and knockback makes performing DI necessary to survive...much less effective, he actually loses some good follow ups, all he gains is an absurdly powerful upsmash

i wouldn't be surprised for lucario to lose a bit of viability, he will be killed even earlier, and the knockback increase won't make it up for him, i doubt he still has a fair WOP, once again, it will be harder for him to recover with more hitstun, his grabs at low % won't put opponents in as bad of positions because they will be farther away


also, still searching for someone with aim to play me >_>

Maybe u need to re-invent his combo with this new ruleset? I mean i'm sure Olimar still has SOMETHING that links. like okay maybe his grabs cant combo but I'm thinking that with this added knockback Usmash to U air can combo. And we all know how nasty U air is when its an electrical or fire pikmin -___-

 

[Dabuz]

Maybe u need to re-invent his combo with this new ruleset? I mean i'm sure Olimar still has SOMETHING that links. like okay maybe his grabs cant combo but I'm thinking that with this added knockback Usmash to U air can combo. And we all know how nasty U air is when its an electrical or fire pikmin -___-

actually upair combos better in 1.0 brawl, 1.1 adds to much knockback, all i have out of grabs is uptilt...which doesnt' combo to upair anymore and only does like 10%

also, yellow upair in 1.0 brawl is only 14% damage fresh...just has stupidly big range, red upair fresh does 24% :3

 

[Mota]

How many frames of hitstun is actually added?

 

[JOE!]

anyone wanna test this out with me on wifi?

Vey interested on what this could yield...

 

[Dabuz]

anyone wanna test this out with me on wifi?

Vey interested on what this could yield...

have you been lookign at my posts, i want to test this out on wifi...aim=dabuz3

 

[JOE!]

I dont have AIM tho <.<

 

[Dabuz]

*sighs* add my FC, letsa go!

 

[Two-Ell]

I've tried this out with SFP. Eh, other than me dying earlier and killing a bit earlier nothing much changes for Peach. Like San says in his posts essentially my play is pretty much the same. Yes some new strings come in here and there and some old ones don't work(or maybe not as well). I can't really name new strings off my head. You'll be a bit hardpressed to get a multi Dair string like Dair>Dair>Uair. You're going to be one Dair shortened. Back air still links to fitlt(lower mid percents) and you can still tilt from a Dthrow (lower mid percents also). It's possible to keep alive as high as probably around 135%(give or take a couple percents), but under really gay circumstances I think one time I died in the mid 70s lol. She can get popped into the air ALOT in some MUs it gets annoying, but damage racking is such an easy task sometimes. Comebacks after a bad stock aren't hard to come by and Sweet-spotted Usmash can take even Snake out under 100%. Some of you guys think Peach is worse off and I think someone said she'd be like 'high tier'. At this point I'm not really sure I can't truly say which I'd agree with. I don't really imagine the pros and cons for her in 1.1 to outweigh each other by much(in either quantity or quality).

[/Peach]

There are some low tiers that I think actually do benefit though. Samus I feel does. Extra hitstun helps a lot with linking. It's much easier to follow jabs with tilts too. 1.1 helps with the usually crappy knockback on missles/chargeshot a bit. A Link main that's also played with SFP also finds he can string much better in 1.1(I think I saw him mention Dsmash>Uair? Lol I dunno). Watching some streamed replays I've seen him repeatedly jab cancel(not unlike Ike) to around to around 30%. Link basically turns into an Ike with projectiles. Jab cancel can be followed up with Utilt if the opponent DIs up and Dsmash if not. There's a high chance either will land. His ground level rang knocks you into tumbling onto the stage and gives him a chance to read get ups for a free ftilt/dsmash. There's also the Lack of Falco CG. He simply goes too far for chain them to 45% as usual.(I don't remember if it worked at all or not. I know I failed at an attempt at a low %). It makes me wonder what the difference in the MU will be. Of course all this does not erase the issue of horrible recoveries and gimping.

As for my current stance I'm kinda neutral on this all in all. At first I had the typical reaction I'm sure most had as "..What the hell? No". Now though posts like Pierce's and playing it myself makes me believe it should be given some more testing.Everyone is bound to look at this and choose sides a bit selfishly(too harsh?) depending on what exactly happens with their character as a result. This is natural ofcourse. I take Illmatic's position in that honestly if this does prove to aid adequately in balance I'd be will to accept. This needs some testing in an offline competitive environment like a side tourney. My primary interest is how all this will pertain to MK.