Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[The Truth!]

Ripple I thought it was cool, gj.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

after people asked no one cares about my kill % comparisons

DDD killing lucario at 130% with a fresh dtilt is pretty gay bro

i do like your throw charts gonna make my own now im so inspired by yours brb

DDD bthrow----fresh killed jiggs at 125%

 

[bigman40]

Assuming we're not attempting to balance the game, the reason for 1.0 over 1.1 would be because its an established standard.

Its not an options thats similar to balanced brawl, its a half-way attempt or worse. It harms specific characters and still doesnt remove the most egregiously gay parts of the game. Changing it wont balance the game, itll simply shift the balance to favor different characters, by the looks of it those that can kill early and have powerful singular hits. Remove combos, die earlier, suffer more for one hit strong attacks

Spoiler

...and its no wonder you see lots of Ike and DK mains in favor of this...

.

What I dont understand is if youre really so concerned about balancing the game, why do it in such an unbalanced way? Just make rules that eliminate the gay things you dont like. Its a much more affective way of doing what youre intent on accomplishing. And for anyone concerned with adding unnecessary rules 1.1 really does not balance the game, it replaces gay with gay, and doesnt even eliminate the worst gay.

Also the only national tournament that hacking would affect is MLG.

Using a hack does affect our national tourneys that isn't MLG. You're limiting outside players by forcing them to play with hacks by illegal methods deemed by Nintendo. I'm fairly sure no one wants to create a wall for newcomers by forcing them to hack their Wii to play tournament standard brawl. You're also limiting the supply of Wiis that can be used.

I really don't care what people will choose to do with this. We know CGs will be slightly less affected (Pika affected the most), and this is more or less a concern to move MK from his S tier pedestal and make him more vulnerable. However, people won't make this happen because no one wants to change and "attempt" to see what happens (aka temporary use). TO's already have power to choose their rules; what makes people think it would change now? People that were stressing for a MK temp ban still haven't gotten it, and even then, TO's have to actually "use" them to make anything happen.

 

[Ripple]

you don't set it at 1.0. It already is set at 1.0

fail argument is fail.

we don't set it as 2 min with items, its already set as that

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Here is what I don't understand. Why do you think the damage ratio should be 1.1?

 

[Ripple]

Here is what I don't understand. Why do you think the damage ratio should be 1.1?

I don't approve of it yet. thats why I'm gathering data. it it shows to have a healthier metagame (by which I mean more diversity without breaking some characters) then I MIGHT support it for competitive play. but for right now, I just support it if you want to have more fun while still playing brawl

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't approve of it yet. thats why I'm gathering data. it it shows to have a healthier metagame (by which I mean more diversity without breaking some characters) then I MIGHT support it for competitive play. but for right now, I just support it if you want to have more fun while still playing brawl

I see no problem with that. I just don't want to see this become the standard all of a sudden with out any warning like the LGL(not that the LGL was a bad thing).

 

[Thinkaman]

after people asked no one cares about my kill % comparisons

I appreciated it Ripple! It showcases the math that 10% increased knockback means a 20% increase in knockback distance. This is an important concept to be aware of.

Anyone know how this would affect ZSS's d-smash and paralyzer? I know from experience that they are easily screwed up.

 

[Espy Rose]

Umm...
I think the LGL IS a bad thing.

All it is, is unnecessarily prohibiting a technique that's not even broken (except Meta Knight's via frame data), which in turn hurts characters who can effectively utilize non-broken ledge camping (G&W/ROB/Pit), while buffing up other characters who absolutely suck against ledge campers (Falco).

I feel that LGLs are unjust. If you're going to create a rule that buffs and nerfs characters in such a manner, then you might as well allow Ganondorf's little "punch-time" rule too, since that rule does pretty much the same thing.

 

[Ripple]

I appreciated it Ripple! It showcases the math that 10% increased knockback means a 20% increase in knockback distance. This is an important concept to be aware of.

Anyone know how this would affect ZSS's d-smash and paralyzer? I know from experience that they are easily screwed up.

I didn't even notice that. interesting..... that would kinda explain why moves with knock back growth seem to be so much stronger

 

[xxpatgxx]

Besides probably losing 10% survivability(which actually isn't too meager), I don't see why we couldn't test this out.

Edit: It's actually 20%

 

[Ripple]

Besides probably losing 10% survivability(which actually isn't too meager), I don't see why we couldn't test this out.

you actually die 20% earlier

 

[Renegade TX2000]

die 20% earlier and rack up dmg faster with alot of moves like ikes fair does 15% and his jab does 18% if all 3 hits connect. Characters will have to learn to make less mistakes in mu's like mk he can't afford to make hardly any mistakes anymore cause if he does he'll regret it rather then 1.0 mk that could DI to 150% and give you the finger.

edit***

alot of characters such as mk has to play a high risk/high reward in version 1.1. rather then low risk/extreme reward like 1.0 was delivering.

 

[ANTi_]

It's the same thing.

Only thing that'll get me mad is dying at 90 to Snake uptilt.

EDIT : And i might lose to dabuz more now lol.

 

[JOE!]

@ BBrawl requiring Hacking:

all you need is an SD card, no actual "hax" required

 

[A2ZOMG]

I find it funny the people who keep saying Snake is broken in this....when he's clearly worse. I'm looking at you SuSa!

Tell me a move that Snake actually has an easy time landing if you have any idea how spacing works. He has...F-tilt? Even that's questionable since the majority of the cast outmaneuvers him just fine. Everything Snake does is punishes. Yes his punishes are mad gay, but the point is he hits you only when you let him. Or if you just suck and pick someone awful like Ganon.

His recovery is CLEARLY nerfed. More moves that can hit him out of cypher, easier to get Snake offstage in the first place, C4 recovery is much riskier. And all the characters who do just fine outspacing him now have many more options for killing him without worrying about stale moves being a huge detriment to their playstyle.

All Snake is in this game is a high risk high reward character. Yeah you can't ever get lazy against him. But consistency is much more punishing against him now, and that part of the equation makes Snake clearly worse, since he thrived on being able to not get killed by 90% of the moves in this game.

Probably the best thing going for Snake is his improved Jab? Otherwise the game engine changes don't actually give him anything new.

 

[SuSa]

Utilt > Ftilt, except in terms of speed (2 frames, oh noes)

Utilt outranges many characters (looks at Mario)
It also gets rid of his projectile. (Looks at Mario)

You bait, and we just sit there putting pressure on you with grenades. You eventually are forced to approach, we utilt.

I think me and you need to have another brawl soon....I'll promise to restrict myself to 5 offensive moves. Grenades, Ftilt, Utilt, Dthrow, and C4. No aerials allowed. Period, not even to DI with.

EDIT:
WRONG. The same amount of moves hit him out of cypher. It's based on damage, not knockback.
C4 Recovery is just as risky - just adjust to the new tech time.

Snake doesn't have to worry about staling utilt so much, Nair and dair have become powerhouse KO moves (they already are), and Dtilt is about the level of Snake's old utilt but with better horizontal reach and 4 frames less endlag.

I'm looking into Snake's frame data compared to other characters to find Snake's possible options when hit with any single one of an enemy characters move. Determining which ones we can punish on shield, blah blah blah. I expect this to lead to some new discoveries we may not have known about before... even if they require frame perfection to pull off.



EDIT2:
I still wuv you A2 <3

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't main Mario in Brawl, but I probably wouldn't mind facing you in 1.1 after I check up a few KO percents and get a feeling for how early Up-smash, B-throw, and other random stuff kills you. I don't really care how early Snake kills me since it's really a question of how badly I screw up.

And in your given scenario, I could basically just run up and try to powershield before I move into U-tilt range, and we already know that grabbing is generally a weak option for directly walling approaches. Plus my F-smash outranges your U-tilt, and given I'm the one baiting your U-tilt, I could probably kill you at like 90% with it.

 

[Ussi]

Ren said moves do more damage % now, so more moves should knock Snake out of cypher

 

[A2ZOMG]

For Mario's case, mainly weak B-air is now better for edgeguarding Snake from what I see. Since Mario's weak B-air does exactly 7%.

And you're still awesome in my book SuSa. But I'm pretty certain I've gotten a lot better at the Snake matchup since the last time we met.

 

[X-FACTOR]

Interesting topic, I'd like to see this in effect for a bit, just to see how things turn out.

 

[SuSa]

Mario dies at Snake's utilt at 108% with perfect DI. Take 20% off that, you're looking closer to 80% with perfect DI.

Ftilt is 23%, grenade is 16% you're already 1/2 dead. [and if moves are doing more damage now?... over half dead from two moves]

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It seems like death percents are closer to melee. 80% isn't even really that early in melee. I'm not sure that this is even relevant, I'm just pointing it out.

Incidentally I'm kind of in love with 1.1 gameplay. Games are faster, slightly more aggressive (despite what THinkaman said), and a little more balanced (not a ton more, just a little). I can get behind that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario (or pretty much anyone who spaces intelligently) dies to Snake when he tries to get too fancy. Percent is pretty irrelevant, since Snake racks KO damage on people stupidly easily through random punishes anyway. Stale moves is never a problem for Snake even in regular Brawl, chasing down an opponent who is camping on a lead however is a problem especially on platformed stages.

On the other hand, Mario now I believe has much more legit Jab cancel combos on Snake (keep in mind Mario's Jab is 1 frame faster, and Snake can't shieldgrab between hits), KOs Snake at around 135% with uncharged D-smash and U-smash, probably around like 110% with charged Up-smash.

I'm not calling a ratio, but I'd say the matchup is around 5-10 points better for Mario.

And as for Melee, it should be noted that surviving to high percents in Melee isn't actually that hard. A lot of stocks that come down to spacing wars will see characters that live from like 160-180, and if you're heavy or on DL64 or both, beyond the 200s provided you DI hits very intelligently.

 

[SuSa]

How, and why, is Mario that close to Snake to be able to land a jab? If anything you'd get a bair off as an aerial from a bait.

Also, it's still roughly 1 full ftilt and another 10%~ move less than it already was. If you get hit by just 2 grenades, and 2 ftilts. Your stock is pretty much as good as gone.

Meaning you get 4 mistakes per stock, no more. No less. And these don't even have to be mistakes.

If you get dthrown - so hope you, you better not get tech chased. Each grab is roughly 10% added to your death toll, or we can choose to just shield and try to get an ftilt off (practically guarenteed on Mario) and add 35%~ from one grab. 1 grab = half dead.

That 20% is a lot more vital for Snake than Mario. As you stated, Snake has no problem wracking the damage - it's the consistancy of which his moves require for you to wrack damage is the problem. If I have to deal 30%~ less, that's insane

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol snake isn't as good as your implying him susa i'm telling you this straight up

 

[-Ran]

I feel bad for Wario. He'll still get grab released, but now he's going to die so much sooner. I'll do some actual testing tomorrow, but something tells me Jnig isn't going to like dying at 50-60% from a tippered F-smash from Marth.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

you don't set it at 1.0. It already is set at 1.0

Bad logic is bad. The default doesn't matter; the default is that we as players can change the settings if we want.

Here is what I don't understand. Why do you think the damage ratio should be 1.1?

Because by inherently changing the settings in the gme, you can get a more balanced, more fair game without the need for random, out-of-game rules. Same reason I think stock count should be 1, and food should be on.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fast characters like Pikachu and ZSS can combo much more easily in 1.1. I can chain uair at 0% like forever. ZSS' jab actually combos.

I hypothesize that the difference between the e4all demo and vBrawl as it is today (one of them anyway) is a lower damage ratio. A lot of interesting design decisions we couldn't figure out seem to disappear when 1.1 is on.

 

[B!squick]

Ugh, why does this have so many pages? This is a bad idea, let it die.

 

[HeroMystic]

lol snake isn't as good as your implying him susa i'm telling you this straight up

This, actually.

Snake is actually one of Mario's easier top-tier match-ups. We actually need a re-discussion on that.

 

[Allied]

Snake is booty LOL

 

[Exalted]

Lawl, Ganon would do so much damage. Gonna try it out now and stuff now.

 

[-LzR-]

How does this make nado a worse move? It doesn't have knockback until the end and it cannot be DI'd out of. So it only become even more impossible to punish.

 

[Juushichi]

just thought I'd give everyone an update as to a few "kill" throws/moves % comparisons

keep in mind that the following character is attempting to kill snake WITH DI on FD

--------------------------------------------------------- DR 1.0 -------------------- DR 1.1

Ness B-throw ---------------------------------- 158% ------------------------- 132%

Lucas D-throw ---------------------------------200% ---------------------------160%

Snake up-tilt ----------------------------------145%-----------------------------117%

Ganon Murder stomp ----------------------117% ----------------------------95%

Oh ****.

And then I realized that it was Snake on FD that this was happening on. This is kind of a big deal (in a good way).

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Faster kills, weaker kill moves get buffed more than strong kill moves. I like this idea. Why isn't this tournament standard yet? ;3

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I feel bad for Wario. He'll still get grab released, but now he's going to die so much sooner. I'll do some actual testing tomorrow, but something tells me Jnig isn't going to like dying at 50-60% from a tippered F-smash from Marth.

No way; Wario lives at ~100% from it with 1.0 ratio. He'll be fiiiiine.

 

[Sails]

Full support of more time and effort put in to this. I'd like to attend a 1.1 tournament test to see how that goes too.

 

[Allied]

going to propose this at a tournament see what happens

Maybe if i can get data that ROB is 10x better in this Chibo will host it

THATS RIGHT NAMESEARCH IT CHIBO

CHIBO
CHIBO
CHIBO
CHIBOSEMPAI
CHIBOSEMPAI

CHIBO AT THE CLUBS

 

[Mota]

LOL this is ****ing ********.

Reading the first couple page...I don't understand why people are open to completely changing the metagame through 1.1 Damage ratio to make the game 'more balanced'.
It would be a completely new game. Present tier list, 2 year MUs and data go out the window.
This is brought up and there's so much interest that people are talking of side events specifically to test this. If only people were as interested as..

And what boggles me is that people are curious and want research into this.
Yet the MK ban situation has had mountains of research and evidence, and still nothing gets done. Do you really think this DR1.1 will be any different? EDIT: There will be people for and against it. Will all regions and countries use this, Japan? EU? Australia? Unlikely all regions will implement it, unlikely all countries will implement it. there goes nationals and international participants. Reminds me of the MK dilemma, one region bans MK, but that only isolates them from the majority who don't, disadvantaging their home players, resulting in going back & forgetting about the whole thing.

I CANNOT understand how the community is just dandy with testing this, but 90% of regions refuse to test MK bans.

Remove MK and the game IS more balanced without having to implement this wasted idea and drastically changing the game. This community is willing to do EVERYTHING to achieve 'balance' but remove ONE character

If people are still looking for a change 3 years into the game I highly suggest they start playing a new one.