Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Sails]

LOL this is ****ing ********

Reading the first couple page...I don't understand why people are open to completely changing the metagame through 1.1 Damage ratio to make the game 'more balanced'.
It would be a completely new game. Present tier list, 2 year MUs and data go out the window.

And what boggles me is that people are curious and want research into this.
Yet the MK ban situation has had mountains of research and evidence, and still nothing gets done. Do you really think this DR1.1 will be any different?
Remove MK and the game IS more balanced without having to implement this wasted idea and drastically changing the game. This community is willing to do EVERYTHING to achieve 'balance' but remove ONE character

Look at other competitive fighter communities and how they've had to adjust to patch updates. The community should be open to change, it's nice to have something new, especially since most of Brawls metagame has been explored.

 

[Flayl]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but setting to 1.1 doesn't make moves kill 10% earlier than they would in 1.0

For example, Bowser's UTilt kills Dedede on FD at 125 in 1.0
But it kills him at 105 in 1.1

105/125 = 84% not 90%

My opinion is that this changes the game a lot more than some people are speculating it will...

 

[iRJi]

What makes this really funny, is that not enough people from the BBR has said anything about this yet.

Shadowlink?

Overswarm?

Where is everyone? What are everyones views.

 

[Ripple]

My opinion is that this changes the game a lot more than some people are speculating it will...

probably true. characters than can rack up damage fast and have a strong moves that can somewhat kill in 1.0 will be the characters to rocket up the tier list.

peach, ike, diddy.... all will be unbelievably good in 1.1

while ICS will come CRASHING down

 

[Chuee]

I think we already concluded that Peach would be worse in 1.1.
How are ICs going down?
I don't see many things that are going to hurt them besides increased knockback getting them offstage earlier.

 

[Ripple]

I think we already concluded that Peach would be worse in 1.1.
How are ICs going down?
I don't see many things that are going to hurt them besides increased knockback getting them offstage earlier.

nooooooo..... someone else tested peach, I think SMFP and said all of her combos still work. that means she racks up damage just as fast as she oes now and she kills 15-20% earlier. peach has been buffed considerably

ICs gameplay turns to **** because they still have to changrab to the same % as in 1.0 because of the fear of breaking out. basically they have to do the exact same thing they do now but everyone else gets to kill them earlier

 

[C~Dog]

Don't ICs get to kill earlier with Smashes from CGs?

 

[Messatsu!]

Oct 30th: RGV/Kingsville tournament with 1.1

:]

 

[Ripple]

Don't ICs get to kill earlier with Smashes from CGs?

they can kill earlier, but that doesn't mean they can end the chaingrab earlier. popo's up smash is very weak actually for a smash attack, why do you think you see Ics players charge a full upsmash during a chaingrab?

they have to chaingrab to a certain % as to where it is almost physically impossible to break out. with 1.1, that doesn't change. they still need to chaingrab to that % so the opponent can't bust out before the smash hits.

they can probably go down 5-8% and just half charge a up smash but that doesn't make up for every other character being able to separate them and kill nana better now.

 

[Tristan_win]

...So how much does changing the damage ratio effect frame advantage for attacks compared to 1.0 at the same percentage?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

you actually die 20% earlier

again, if that really becomes an issue people can always move to 4 stocks

 

[Ripple]

ignore me, I have no idea

 

[Krystedez]

The whole thing of IC's crashing down; they'll suffer in the same regard as everyone else, it isn't just one character that will benefit/hurt from this.

I think 1.1 is a good idea, and 4-stock matches being back would be great. There are actually some things you can do in 1.1 like combos wise and hitstun wise that you otherwise couldn't do in 1.0 too.

It's like the poor-man's edition to Brawl + (otherwise known as the "melee" look alike, or half of what P:M is trying to accomplish.)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

probably true. characters than can rack up damage fast and have a strong moves that can somewhat kill in 1.0 will be the characters to rocket up the tier list.

peach, ike, diddy.... all will be unbelievably good in 1.1

while ICS will come CRASHING down

It also throws all the banana trip frame data out the window since everyone now has a longer trip animation. This might be a great for Diddy but it is still a huge change for people to get used to.

 

[SuSa]

This, actually.

Snake is actually one of Mario's easier top-tier match-ups. We actually need a re-discussion on that.

Only through Snake's general ignorance of the matchup.
How often do Snake's fight Mario again?

Being completely outranged by several attacks doesn't help you.
Being outcamped doesn't help you.
Being killed (roughly) 20-30% earlier

Spoiler

(your Fmash is strong.. haha)

doesn't help you.
Wracking damage slower than Snake (we have a large damage output) doesn't help you.

You guys are on Peach's level vs Snake, but lacking some of the tools she has; but with a large buff in KO power. That's just how your character is designed. And by no means am I saying your character is garbage. He just lacks the tools and range to be able to handle Snake very well.


Back when I played, I did my best learning the random matchups that weren't top tier. Why? Because if I ever ran into Edreese or Champ in tourney, I wanted to know how to handle Peach, to handle Fox, to handle Sheik. Vato is out here - I need to know Mario. I'm not going to drop a tournament set due to lack of knowledge and not knowing what shuts the character down. I'm going to lose my tourney sets because the other player is flat out better than me.

 

[KingJacob]

I have come to the realization that all infinites would be weaker simply because they can kill 0% anyway so killing earlier does not help infinites. Also pummels are slightly worse because you never get to the high percents where it is possible to pummel multiple times.

 

[SuSa]

After a certain point of time, you should only be getting like 2-3 pummels off anyways... hell, just getting 1 off should be a pain for most of the cast save Lucario and others with stupidly fast pummels...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't see a reason to change from 1.0 to 1.1, other than some people want it, I know we change game setting like items but this is just letting people kill earlier which buffs and nerfs character...but at the same time everyone else is getting the same changed.

I don't see how increased knock back adds combos either, smash logic tells me that quite the opposite would happen.

After a certain point of time, you should only be getting like 2-3 pummels off anyways... hell, just getting 1 off should be a pain for most of the cast save Lucario and others with stupidly fast pummels...

Only furrys in this game pummel fast.

 

[KingJacob]

Actually ness pummels fast as well. Also does everyone agree that all infinites would be automatically weakened under this system?

 

[EPsilon933]

I don't see how increased knock back adds combos either, smash logic tells me that quite the opposite would happen.

Someone mentioned that 1.1 also adds a bit of extra hitstun.

 

[Raziek]

Actually ness pummels fast as well. Also does everyone agree that all infinites would be automatically weakened under this system?

No?

Since, you know, DK still gets small-stepped, Grab Release infinites still work, and the ICs keep theirs.

It's no better than a selective ban that drastically changes the metagame.

 

[HeroMystic]

Only through Snake's general ignorance of the matchup.
How often do Snake's fight Mario again?

Being completely outranged by several attacks doesn't help you.
Being outcamped doesn't help you.
Being killed (roughly) 20-30% earlier

Spoiler

(your Fmash is strong.. haha)

doesn't help you.
Wracking damage slower than Snake (we have a large damage output) doesn't help you.

Your first, third, and fourth points are rather poor points.

Your first has some merit, but F-tilt isn't as awesome as initially thought (Vertical spacing) and U-tilt while broken can only really be busted out if there's an opening.

Your second point only applies if it's long range camping. Even then, Mario has FLUDD, which completely blows away grenades. This largely causes a stalemate and goes down to who is more sick of camping. Mid-range however Mario actually out-camps Snake. Fireballs are enabled to stop grenades dead in their tracks and the fireballs are more spammable than grenades.

Your third point is fine.

Your fourth point is rather silly. Snake only gets high damage through punishment and grenades. In this MU, Mario more or less does the same thing until Snake gets popped in the air, then Mario has a direct advantage. I'd call it even.

Am I saying Mario has an advantage? That'd be silly. But it's really no higher than 60:40 Snake. 55:45 is arguable. What hurts Mario this MU is he has a low margin of error while Snake has a rather high margin of error due to his weight.

But back to the original point: Snake isn't as awesome as one would initially think. He has plenty of holes in his defenses.

 

[SuSa]

Your first, third, and fourth points are rather poor points.

Your first has some merit, but F-tilt isn't as awesome as initially thought (Vertical spacing) and U-tilt while broken can only really be busted out if there's an opening.

Your second point only applies if it's long range camping. Even then, Mario has FLUDD, which completely blows away grenades. This largely causes a stalemate and goes down to who is more sick of camping. Mid-range however Mario actually out-camps Snake. Fireballs are enabled to stop grenades dead in their tracks and the fireballs are more spammable than grenades.

Your third point is fine.

Your fourth point is rather silly. Snake only gets high damage through punishment and grenades. In this MU, Mario more or less does the same thing until Snake gets popped in the air, then Mario has a direct advantage. I'd call it even.

Am I saying Mario has an advantage? That'd be silly. But it's really no higher than 60:40 Snake. 55:45 is arguable. What hurts Mario this MU is he has a low margin of error while Snake has a rather high margin of error due to his weight.

But back to the original point: Snake isn't as awesome as one would initially think. He has plenty of holes in his defenses.

No, we don't need to save Utilt for the KO on Mario until he's roughly at 80%~, in a 1.1 game we'd not need to save it at ALL. Practically all of our moves become reliable KO moves (except Jab, but that was never a reliable KO move to begin with)

Dair already kills much the cast at 70-80%~ near the edges on FD (the main time we use it), 20% less and we're seeing %'s in the mid 60's.

FLUDD is not as spammable as grenades, we shouldn't be using grenades when you are spamming fireballs. We should be cancelling or shielding your fireballs. Preferablly the cancel as it leaves more of our options open.

Peach is 40:60 with Snake, I feel the same way around Mario. Although I'd rather use the word Disadvantage than a matchup ratio.

Snake has holes in his defenses, and we're finally looking into holes in others offenses, using frame data. Hopefully this balances things out.

I'm actually learning quite a few things, and I learned many of our options are actually the same speed as eachother - helping my mixup game, and knowing what moves I can use dependant on my spacing as well.

 

[KingJacob]

"No?

Since, you know, DK still gets small-stepped, Grab Release infinites still work, and the ICs keep theirs.

It's no better than a selective ban that drastically changes the metagame."

Just because an infinite is still in does not mean it did not get weakened.... Think about it this way, lets say your goal the entire stock is to infinite your opponent, and if you land it you take the stock. In the original game, they would have to rack 100% damage on you before they can kill you, giving you ample time to land a grab before they can achieve that. However with 1.1 your opponent only has to deal 80% percent damage before killing you, giving you less time to attempt to grab them. Essentially
1 grab = death no matter the damage ratio, but the person who is attempting to kill without infinites has to hit less times to kill on higher damage ratios.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Someone mentioned that 1.1 also adds a bit of extra hitstun.

I noticed it added a little but I don't see how this makes lots of combos possible, if anything I think we would lose more than we would gain.

 

[Juushichi]

nooooooo..... someone else tested peach, I think SMFP and said all of her combos still work. that means she racks up damage just as fast as she oes now and she kills 15-20% earlier. peach has been buffed considerably

ICs gameplay turns to **** because they still have to changrab to the same % as in 1.0 because of the fear of breaking out. basically they have to do the exact same thing they do now but everyone else gets to kill them earlier

Also, Ripple. Peaches' offstage turnip game is a bunch better.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'm posting again solely so i can find my other post by going through my previous posts LOL

wwwwooorrrrdddd

 

[SuSa]

You didn't have to post to do that....

BUT OMFG ITS GIMPYFISH!

 

[Gimpyfish62]

also i still think this game shoudl be played with only 2 stocks.

 

['V']

Any possibility for a few extra combos would be just dandy for me.

 

[Raziek]

Selective weaking is STILL BAD. This is a global sweeping change that would change a LOT of the game balance, just because you guys don't like some of the "gay stuff like infinites".

 

[SuSa]

also i still think this game shoudl be played with only 2 stocks.

Go tell that to the Lucario mains.

 

['V']

Go tell that to the Lucario mains.

Tell them not to fall far behind. It's that simple.

 

[SuSa]

Tell them not to fall far behind. It's that simple.

It's not just that.

Lucario is weakened as he gets more stocks ahead, opening up some neat possibilities and combos when you're 3 stocking your opponent at 140%~ damage for example... also it weakens their ability to make comebacks from 0% 2 stocks behind.

Removing a stock is basically nerfing Lucario...

 

[Espy Rose]

Removing a stock is basically nerfing Lucario...

Which is fine, because having 3 stocks buffs Lucario.

 

['V']

Aww... I kinda feel bad for taking away their satisfaction of owning noobs even though they're capable of doing it anyway...

My bad. =P

 

[Gimpyfish62]

let it nerf lucario - if we started on two stocks nobody would be whining to make it 3 and you'd all just get used to it - it also buffs pokemon trainer

balaanncceee lol - anyway this isn't the thread for that - 2 stocks just makes this game somewhat bearable - it's not like people are killing themselves in brawl anyway - crazy gimps and things should have a wayyyy higher impact in this game.


buuuuttttt talk about the 1.1 thing. LOL

 

[SuSa]

@espy
Point taken, but I was talking about from the current metagame.

@GimpyHahaha... it does buff PT... if you start on Squirtle. XD

I'd honestly be more willing to attempt the 2 stock match thing.. faster games, higher punish for planking (if you **** up and die, ouuuuchhhh), and it doesn't effect me. =P

Might make matches more exciting to watch.... <_<

Screw the 1.1 thing, this is now about Gimpyfish and why he's been gone for months and out of every thread he posts in this one.

 

[•Col•]

How does this make nado a worse move? It doesn't have knockback until the end and it cannot be DI'd out of. So it only become even more impossible to punish.

There's slightly increased hitstun, so you can actually SDI out of the tornado fairly easily now.

And I wish people would stop saying how characters can kill sooner/die earlier for pro's and cons. EVERY character gets the same buff. The only character this will really affect is Lucario, because he won't live to higher %'s so he wont get a large Aura boost.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Which is fine, because having 3 stocks buffs Lucario.

kinda what i was trying to express lol