All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[ROB_[MCC}]

First of all, this is truly spectacular phanna. I think the new color/number system is very effective.

In terms of adding my two cents to any of the matchups, it has to be with YL vs. Peach. I main Young Link and have played Peach players many times. The match (as much as I'd like it to be) is not 5-2 in Young Link's favor. It is closer to even... I'd honestly say dead even, but people constantly say otherwise.

My one argument revolves around YL's killing moves. Young Link gets his kills from racking up damage and connecting with ethier his dair or dsmash... or ruining his opponent's recovery. However, against Peach, the only real threat is the dair due to Peach's excellent horizontal recovery. Peach is usually recovering from above the stage, so it becomes difficult to hit her with projectiles.

Reguarding Peach's dsmash - Young Link is notorious for CCing, which can lead to real problems. In addtion, Peach's dsmash slips under YL's shield very quickly and can really knock YL far from the stage. Young Links' horizontal recovery isn't very great, and so, he becomes vulerable at low percents.

Most battles I've been in with Peach come down to the final stock. I can't tell you the number of times a stichface has ruined my day. YL can't pull stichfaces...

Anyhow, I vote you at least consider a change to 5-3 in YL's favor, because right now it seems like Peach doesn't stand a chance... certainly untrue.

 

[pdk]

kudos, the new update is a huge improvement, though it still seems like pikachu doesn't **** puff enough for a 9

 

[Fletch]

kudos, the new update is a huge improvement, though it still seems like pikachu doesn't **** puff enough for a 9

Agreed, but the overhaul as a whole is very nice. Good work Phanna.

EDIT: Not saying I disagreed or anything, just wondering, why does Mario have a 2 stock advantage over Doc vs. Falcon and Ganon?

 

[Mogwai]

The color number scheme in the first post now is masterfully done, good work on listening to all the advice and finding an admirable middle-ground.

In terms of adding my two cents to any of the matchups, it has to be with YL vs. Peach. I main Young Link and have played Peach players many times. The match (as much as I'd like it to be) is not 5-2 in Young Link's favor. It is closer to even... I'd honestly say dead even, but people constantly say otherwise.

My one argument revolves around YL's killing moves. Young Link gets his kills from racking up damage and connecting with ethier his dair or dsmash... or ruining his opponent's recovery. However, against Peach, the only real threat is the dair due to Peach's excellent horizontal recovery. Peach is usually recovering from above the stage, so it becomes difficult to hit her with projectiles.

Reguarding Peach's dsmash - Young Link is notorious for CCing, which can lead to real problems. In addtion, Peach's dsmash slips under YL's shield very quickly and can really knock YL far from the stage. Young Links' horizontal recovery isn't very great, and so, he becomes vulerable at low percents.

Most battles I've been in with Peach come down to the final stock. I can't tell you the number of times a stichface has ruined my day. YL can't pull stichfaces...

Anyhow, I vote you at least consider a change to 5-3 in YL's favor, because right now it seems like Peach doesn't stand a chance... certainly untrue.

I think this is probably true, though the point about CCing varies from Y. Link to Y. Link. I think Rob has given a good reason for this to go down to 5-3 or 5-4 in Y. Link's favor, though I still think it's a good matchup for him.

kudos, the new update is a huge improvement, though it still seems like pikachu doesn't **** puff enough for a 9

I disagree with this statement. Pikachu has the best usmash in the game and puff has low verticle endurance. Add to that the fact that puff doesn't combo Pika very well, has trouble finishing him off due to his absurd up b, doesn't have any projectiles and can't really beat a well spaced uair, and you've got the best case of low teir countering the **** out of high teir.

 

[1048576]

Everyone who reads this needs to give Phanna some +rep right now. Thank you for bringing this to the smashboards community.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

awesome, us colorblind people are happy now!

 

[Virgilijus]

Excellent Job! Us non-color blind people are also happy

 

[Eggz]

Awesome, Gimpy is happy now!

 

[phish-it]

This is much easier to read than before.

I just want to touch up on the Pichu and Ganon match ups

Pichu vs. Fox: 2 Should be switched with Falco for reasons I’ve mentioned several times (Fox has an easier time killing pichu than Falco, Upsmash and Upthrow Up-air kill at like 50-60. Plus Pichu can edguard Falco’s poor recovery much easier than Fox’s. Not too mention, being the smallest character in the game gives the pokemon a slightly easier time avoiding lasers.

Pichu vs. Falco: 3 See above

Pichu vs. Jigglypuff 4, This is a very close match up. For one, if you look at much of an advantage Pikachu has on jigglypuff (which you have as a 9 for Pikachu) It would make sense for It’s counterpart to do at least OK in the same match. Pichu does well against Jigglypuff for some of the same reasons as pikachu: Powerful Up-smash, hard to edge guard etc. Being the smallest character and all makes it slightly easier to miss a rest, which Pichu can take great advantage of by charging the forward B, which can kill at 0% on Yoshi Story.

Pichu vs. Link: 2 Pichu really doesn’t have much in this match, except being difficult to hit with projectiles. Link can also kill Pichu from a grab at a range of percents with either d-throw-D-air, N-air (It kills Pichu) and even the legendary Up-B. Pichu’s hitbox is it’s body for the most part. Which is why long lasting large hitbox moves ie. Sex kicks tend to wreck him/her.

Pichu vs. Luigi 3 I’ll give this a 3 only because Luigi has some difficulty comboing Pichu, but makes up for it with his great priority and power. Pichu’s hitbox is it’s body for the most part. Which is why long lasting large hitbox moves ie. Sex kicks tend to wreck him/her.

Ganon vs. Marth: 5 This really should be labeled as even for various reasons. Sure Marth has a sword and can edgeguard Ganondorf well, but Ganon’s combos against marth when combined with his power are dangerous. According to Tipman’s Matchup guide this is even as well.

Ganon vs. Peach: 5, Another even matchup. These characters both can do a lot of damage to eachother just as badly. It’s also somewhat stage dependant. Again, according to Tipman’s Matchup guide this is even as well.

Ganon vs. Samus: 6 meh, I hate this match. But I do think it’s more even than a 7 in Ganon’s Favor. Once again this matchup is even in Tipman’s guide.

Ganon vs. Doc: 5 I don’t think Doc has clear advantage…

Ganon vs. Link: 5 The most epic matchup in the entire game. A Battle of Good vs. Evil, obviously it’s going to be close (even if Good always prevails)

Ganon vs. DK: 7 This is definitely not as easy as an 8 for Ganon, DK can combo the giant man quite well but can really defend all that well in return (crap shield). To top it off, Bum was messing Tipman up at MLG NY.

Ganon vs. G&W: 7 Again I don’t think this is a big of an advantage as an 8, but I could be wrong…. In a way this matchup is sort of like Ganon Marth. Because of G&W’s disjointed hitbox, he can keep the meat away with good spacing (and edgeguarding) but having such crappy weight combined with shield, rolls, and sidestep, it’s a lot more difficult.

Have fun while I spend my Christmas vacation writing my senior thesis.......

 

[Mcscruff]

definately an improvement, now theres better colors and theres numbers. good job.

 

[smashfan34]

great so far.

i like the new update it is real great. prefect, and easy to distinguish which is which. i would personally say sheik vs ic's is worse than 4-5 for sheik. ive always heard ic's counter sheik. and my friend that mains sheik, gets ***** everytime he plays a good ic's. +rep phanna.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i liked it so much i actually gave rep, i never give rep lol

 

[Sky2042]

Thank much for the numbers. It's a lot easier to understand with the numbers. Previously, I couldn't really tell what Roy had going for him, but looking at it with the numbers just shows that he can hold his own against most. Beats on a few of the lower tier, gets ***** by a few of the higher tier, and just generally is alright.

+rep from me now.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

lol roy is the worst character in the game, heres my "roy is the worst" chart to prove it

NOT worst characters: All characters but roy
Worst character: Roy
Cutest Character: Bowser

 

[Sky2042]

lol roy is the worst character in the game, heres my "roy is the worst" chart to prove it

I'm tempted to laugh, based on phanna's chart.

 

[BigRick]

I added all the points together for some characters and you could rank them in terms of matchups.

Max score would be 260
an average score should be 130

Sheik 187
Falco 176
Marth 175
Fox 171
Peach 161

I was too lazy to do it for all the chars, but I think it could be a nice addition.

Also, I've seen some scores that you gave for some matchups, and I think you went a little bit extreme on them. Please reconsider the scores for:

Peach vs Young Link - I'd say 5-4 for Young Link here, it's not a harder fight than Peach vs Sheik/Fox
Peach vs Falcon - I'd say 5-5, some say 5-4 in Peach's favor, some say it's in Falcon's favor... newayz, his combos hurt A LOT

 

[MetalLuigi1209]

Big Rick, I completed your scores if you don't mind.
Fox-171
Falco-176
Sheik-187
Marth-175
Peach-161
C.Falcon-157
ICs-163
Samus-156
Doc-143
Jigglypuff-137
Mario-136
Ganon-150
Link-118
Luigi-120
D.K.-108
Roy-105
Y.Link-120
Pikachu-121
Yoshi-108
Zelda-109
Mr.G&W-105
Ness-116
Bowser-68
Kirby-78
Pichu-78

PLEASE don't flame me if my math is incorrect, I cannot trust my calculator all of the time. I was shocked that Bowsers was lower than Mewtwos, since Bowser had a lot more 0s.

 

[marthsword]

fox vs link isnt 5-1 it should be 5-3. sheik is way worse of a matchup then fox, and you've got sheik at 5-2. link vs marth make even at least. link vs samus make it even at least. prolly should be links favor 5 to 4. link and ic's even or in links favor 5 to 4.

You seem like a biased link fanboy to me. And you've never been to a tourney.

Phanna, I don't think you should move fox vs. link up 1, it's well known that fox ***** link. I don't know if good edgeguarding on link's part is enough.

 

[Fonz]

Can't help but notice some of the peach matchups are a little odd. Peach loses to samus? News to me. Ylink ***** the **** out of peach? Much harder than fox or sheik? In fact ylink ***** peach as hard as peach ***** bowser apparently. Seems like too much weight is placed on the out of place low teirs that do better than expected against certain high teirs.

 

[marthsword]

lol roy is the worst character in the game, heres my "roy is the worst" chart to prove it

NOT worst characters: All characters but roy
Worst character: Roy
Cutest Character: Bowser

lol. I agree 100%, no joke. No one would believe me when I said Boozer was kinda cute...

EDIT: Woohoo! 500 post, Im an apprentice!

500 posts, 3 bars of rep (yes gimpy, and everyone else, I earned most of it, not just from my old sig) and a cool avatar. yay.

 

[BigRick]

I don't mind metal luigi, I already told that I was too lazy to do everything lol.

Gotta agree with Fonz here, Peach doesn't lose to Samus, hmm she doesn't lose to Link either.

At least 5-5 in those two matchups.

 

[Vall3y]

you should somehow try and give more weight to the matchups versus chars higher on last compiled list\the tier list.
lol@ gimpy's chart.
and lol@phanna reading 'falcon' as 'falco' in this post
http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=1980399&postcount=43

and say how much rep points is a rep bar anyway?

 

[Virgilijus]

Big Rick, I completed your scores if you don't mind.
Fox-171
Falco-176
Sheik-187
Marth-175
Peach-161
C.Falcon-157
ICs-163
Samus-156
Doc-143
Jigglypuff-137
Mario-136
Ganon-150
Link-118
Luigi-120
D.K.-108
Roy-105
Y.Link-120
Pikachu-121
Yoshi-108
Zelda-109
Mr.G&W-105
Ness-116
Bowser-68
Kirby-78
Pichu-78

PLEASE don't flame me if my math is incorrect, I cannot trust my calculator all of the time. I was shocked that Bowsers was lower than Mewtwos, since Bowser had a lot more 0s.

Speaking of which, where is Mewtwo?

 

[mood4food77]

just a little known fact, bowser is fox's 3rd worst low tier match-up, under ness and g&w, ness and g&w are at 4-6 deficits on fox while bowser is at a 3-7 deficit, and may i remind you that there is no such thing as a completely one sided match-up, as in your case a 5-0 match-up, both characters have a shot to win the match, just one has a greater shot which is why i prefer my adding up to 10 method over yours one character with 5

let's take 2 match-ups

pika vs. ICs
pichu vs. ICs

now both do horrible in the match-up, but since there is a shot for either character to win there is no such thing as a 10-0 or in your case a 5-0, so then we make them both 9-1 or in your case 5-1, but what else is there, pika does better on ICs than pichu does therefore changing pika's strength against the ICs to 8-2 but leaving pichu's at 9-1, but with yours, 5-1 would be for both of them because a jump from 5-1 to 5-2 is a huge jump, for something of this size, more numbers usually is better, it helps seperate match-ups more because there is no way that falcon and ganon do equally as well on sheik, if we use your one character with 5, they both would be at 5-2 but we all know that ganon does worse on sheik, with my method of always adding up to 10, we can seperate them having falcon at 7-3 and ganon at 8-2, it to me helps a little bit

i like the color-number combination much much better, and the fact you used A instead of 10


here's some info on match-ups that people are confused about

peach on samus, i would give 8-2 to peach, all of samus' projectiles are eaten by peach, samus has no CCC game at all, which is a big part of samus' game, and peach ahs turnips that are great at edgegaurding samus

sheik on ICs, 8-2 to ICs, ICs are teh only character to counter sheik because of teh CT

peach on ganon, 7-3 to ganon, ganon is one of the few characters who actually asks for peach to use the dsmash, and also on a stage with platforms, if ganon stays below peach most of the match, ganon basically will win, so ganon likes this match-up

ganon on g&w, uhhhh...i'll put 7-3 in ganon's favor, i lost to a g&w not too long ago but i never fought one till that point, and since g&w is light and dies at like 50% from ganon, i'll say it's edged towards ganon

that's all for now

 

[MetalLuigi1209]

Speaking of which, where is Mewtwo?

Hey I thought I did Mewtwo.... strange.... well anyways, Mewtwos sum is 81.
I just summed that up quickly in my head, so you may want to double check that.

 

[N64]

mood4food77, you fail to realize that the number system you are suggesting has the exact same number of choices as phanna's. The only difference is that phanna's makes sense and applies to the smash world. To demonstrate this, consider the following:

0-5 = 0-10
1-5 = 1-9
2-5 = 2-8
3-5 = 3-7
4-5 = 4-6
even = 5-5
5-4 = 6-4
5-3 = 7-3
5-2 = 8-2
5-1 = 9-1
5-0 = 10-0

Now, phanna's rating system shows the number of matches in a best-of-nine set (a larger set than I've seen at any tourney, btw) that each character can be expected to win, something pertinant to smash. Your rating system shows possible combinations of numbers that add up to 10.

The rating system is fine. This is the second time you've tried to have it changed, and the second time someone has had to explain the fallacies in this particular argument of yours. Please drop it.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

your bowser matchups are the matchups that are for a bowser that isn't good, thus making them useless xD

i still love the chart, just the idea of the chart, and it looks pretty too.

 

[Fletch]

here's some info on match-ups that people are confused about

peach on samus, i would give 8-2 to peach, all of samus' projectiles are eaten by peach, samus has no CCC game at all, which is a big part of samus' game, and peach ahs turnips that are great at edgegaurding samus

This is simply a ridiculous statement. As a Peach player, I HATE playing against Samus. The problem with her is her **** recovery; she never dies, and Peach does not have an easy time of killing her vertically. Same goes for Peach living against Samus, however, but I think Samus has an easier time killing Peach than vice versa. Sure Peach has turnips, but Samus can always catch them during her bomb jumping, and even use them to her advantage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQIjX4wgF3c). D-smash also isn't very deadly vs. Samus, Samus can punish Peach for trying to float-edgeguard easily. Peach also has a very hard time dealing with projectiles, and Samus' are no exception.

EDIT: I'll finish this match description later. URL fixed.

sheik on ICs, 8-2 to ICs, ICs are teh only character to counter sheik because of teh CT

Eh, I agree this needs to go a little more in ICs favor, but 8-2 seems a bit overkill. Maybe 7-3.

peach on ganon, 7-3 to ganon, ganon is one of the few characters who actually asks for peach to use the dsmash, and also on a stage with platforms, if ganon stays below peach most of the match, ganon basically will win, so ganon likes this match-up

I wouldn't say Ganon likes this matchup necessarily, as he is easily edgeguarded by Peach's turnips + float, even dsmash. Peach can also usually avoid Ganon's attempt to edgeguard with the uair due to her awesome Up+B. However, Ganon's strength can pose a problem for Peach with early KO's. I'd say leave this match as is, at most move it to even.

ganon on g&w, uhhhh...i'll put 7-3 in ganon's favor, i lost to a g&w not too long ago but i never fought one till that point, and since g&w is light and dies at like 50% from ganon, i'll say it's edged towards ganon

I would leave this as is, Ganon's range on his aerials and his overall strength and edgeguarding ability completely decimate G&W, the only good thing G&W has over Ganon is using his d-tilt to edgeguard, this matchup is definitely heavily in Ganon's favor.

 

[AThirdParty]

Ylink ***** the **** out of peach? Much harder than fox or sheik? In fact ylink ***** peach as hard as peach ***** bowser apparently. Seems like too much weight is placed on the out of place low teirs that do better than expected against certain high teirs.

Couldn't find the wording. Fonz is too right.

 

[phish-it]

Mood4Food, with your logic of 'every character has a chance to win' logic is kind of redundant.

If that were the case there would be no 5-0 and 0-5 matchups; which in return makes it less accurate, being that there are 2 less possible ratings.

We know every character can win any match but realistically:

Pichu Vs. Ice Climbers could be looked upon as .4-4.6 and is rounded to the nearest whole number; which is 0-5.

 

[marthsword]

your bowser matchups are the matchups that are for a bowser that isn't good, thus making them useless xD

i still love the chart, just the idea of the chart, and it looks pretty too.

Congrats on 3000 + posts. I'm an apprentice now.


Everyone, please + rep phanna, this chart is incredible.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

Nice list thingy...looks resonable.

 

[RockCrock]

DK should be atleast a 4 vs CF. DK can combo him like crazy, and his back airs can really screw up CF's ariel approach. Edgeguarding him is pie as well.

DK shouldn't be a 4 vs ICs. Unless the DK knows how to fight ICs, he isn't gonna do well. The fight is much different than a majority of his other matchups.

DK vs Doc+Mario: I feel that the Marios have quite an advantage over DK. Comboing them from the up throw can be very difficult, let alone getting the grab if they can space. Projectile spam will mess DK up. Edgeguarding him with back airs will ensure the kill.

DK vs Roy: I'd give DK a 6, he can combo him as well as Fox. Roy has a tough time doing anything. DK can out space him with tilts (i think). Both parties will generally have to edgehog for a kill if they can't land a KOing attack- edgeguarding is difficult.

YLink advantage over DK. Projectile spam, speed, Downsmash will own him.

Why does DK have such an advantage over Bowser? Not so much imo.

Ganon vs Samus: 7!? Samus doesn't have it that bad.

Gmang vs Doc: Aside from being chainthrown, I think Ganon can handle this matchup well. Mario's score is 2 points different? From what i've heard Mario does better vs Ganon.

CF has a 7 vs Doc but a 5 vs Mario...? Can't CF be chained by Doc as well as Mario?

CF vs Ganon should be even.

CF is definately not a perfect game vs Bowser. Not at all. Bowser can do some real damage to CF. Maybe a 7 or 8.

Marth a 6 vs Zelda? lol

OK Shiek vs Ganon. Sure Sheik can chainthrow and combo, but a 9? She is so light, Ganon can chain her, any of his moves can outspace a shield grab. Ganon players need to cry less.

Fox should have less of an advantage vs CF. And less vs Mario, and he's not perfect vs Bowser. Not all Foxes play lightning fast.

 

[Banksya]

that new graph is friggen sexy i must say, good job from a strictly coolness standpoint lmao

but yea so many people are giving their opinions but you should only be asking pro players privately if you have questions about matchups. what are you gonna do, have mood4food and rockcrocks list of counters? LOL

 

[choknater]

wow, i checked out the new updated chart. i'd disagree on a few, but this provides a LOT of info on tournament matchups. i <3 phanna for making this.

pikachu vs jigglypuff, peach vs young link.... the super low ratings seem inaccurate and out of place. but w/e, other than that i have no discrepancies. +rep to the creator.

 

[smashfan34]

reply.

You seem like a biased link fanboy to me. And you've never been to a tourney.

Phanna, I don't think you should move fox vs. link up 1, it's well known that fox ***** link. I don't know if good edgeguarding on link's part is enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smashfan34
fox vs link isnt 5-1 it should be 5-3. sheik is way worse of a matchup then fox, and you've got sheik at 5-2.

No I am not a fanboy, I have mained link for a while, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't take a genious to figure out, someone that's mained link, knows links matchups better than someone that mains marth . I was simply stating, fox is in no way as bad of a matchup as sheik, therefore either fox should be moved up from 5-3, or sheik should be moved down to 5-1. and in case you didnt notice phanna thought about it and changed fox vs link from 5-1 to 5-2, since he realized there is no way, fox does better against link then sheik.

And wtf is it with sheik practically being even with ic's. ic's favor 7 to 3. or 8 to 2.

 

[phish-it]

DK vs Roy: I'd give DK a 6, he can combo him as well as Fox. Roy has a tough time doing anything. DK can out space him with tilts (i think). Both parties will generally have to edgehog for a kill if they can't land a KOing attack- edgeguarding is difficult.

Should be more like a 7 in DK's favor. DK has an easier time edguarding Roy than Roy does DK. Since DK can hover far enough from the stage before finally grabbing the ledge with his up-B, and Roy really cannot jump out to edgeguard.

 

[Trespayne]

Great work on that chart, I bet it took a lot of time and I think you did a good job. I agree with a lot of the matchups too. Shiek definitely has the best matchups out of all people, and the chart shows that. I am suprised that falco overall had better matchups than fox. It seems like falco would be countered more, I know peach counters falco quite well in my opinion.

 

[Zink]

Ooooh, pretty! I think it's interesting that Fox is higher than Falco yet Falco has better matchups.
Are you working on that "best secondary" thing?

 

[Mogwai]

People heavily overrate the IC vs. Shiek counter. It's a soft counter at best, and I think that 5-4 IC is where it should be. It's acutally pretty hard to get that vital CG on a quick shiek that pesters you with needles and ftilts. I dunno, I'm not exceptionally well versed on this matchup, but I know it's a beating for ICs if you fail to get a grab before she gimps nana with a fair.

I think people are most likely right about Y Link vs. Peach being overrated on this chart. Pikachu vs. Jiggs on the other hand might be 1 lower for Pika, but it's surely still a beating. Whenever I play a Pika with Jiggs, it feels like fighting a fox that can't be uthrow -> rest gimped, or edgegaurded nearly as well, but is slightly less fast. Needless to say, that makes it pretty **** bad. Again, I'll leave this one to the experts, but I think Jiggs vs Pika should be 5-2 at worst for Pika. As for Y. Link vs. Peach, I'd say that 5-4 or 5-3 would be more apropriate, most likely 5-4.