Backroom Reform: Current Topic -> Success?

[napZzz]

but you can simply avoid it by walking away from the moving edges just like moving away from the cars and moving away from the bombs on green greens or w/e other hazards their are right?

I mean, everything can be avoided. Lets just legalize every stage. Lets pu ton items too. Cuz you can just avoid them clearly.

 

[-Vocal-]

Alright, so I just played some money matches with a few friends of mine (a Pit main who is respectably skilled at the game, and two others a little above his skill level who main Metaknight and the other Marth) and some of our matches took place on Pokemon Stadium 2, PTAD, Green Greens, and Luigi's Mansion; and I must say...they're honestly not much of an issue at all, given a little open-minded observation. I'm neutral on Green Greens and Luigi's Mansion right now because I still need to play on those stages more and form a more complete perspective on them.

- Pokemon Stadium 2: The gameplay on Pokemon Stadium 2 closely resembled gameplay on Pokemon Stadium 1, and I play on the latter very often (it's my intended stage against MKs during stage striking), the air and ice portions (arguably the two most controversial forms due to their temporary effect on the physics of the characters) really do not degrade the quality of competition (or interfere with the aspect of competition itself, forgive my sub par wording) during a match. They both add another element for players to strategically use and watch out for, with no detrimental or broken factors included. In fact, I found the stage to promote even less camping and temporary halts to a match just from sheer stage layout alone, unlike its older counterpart. I really couldn't find anything wrong with the stage and it didn't grant either of us a significant advantage no matter what character we used from our respective pools, including my Metaknight. The stage, in my opinion, seems like a perfectly reasonable addition as a counterpick stage. Good choice, BBR.

- Port Town Aero Dive: You know...I'll admit that I used to refuse any association with this stage with a passion, just from my initial encounter with the stage's hazards. I didn't understand how to play on the stage correctly, but after a quick review of the detailed PTAD stage observation thread and how to avoid the hazards, I didn't get hit by any of the cars at all. I played on the stage a few more times to learn the order of the stage's transformations, and there are only a few portions that even present hazards, all of which are completely avoidable. This stage also adds an additional element to the gameplay: the "fight for the safe spot" factor, especially on the transformation that has the three platforms with the cars temporarily passing by underneath; both players must temporarily try to overtake the other and keep the safe spot for themselves. That's still competition, fighting to stay safe and put the other in danger/limit their options, plain and simple. After finally putting personal bias and beliefs about the stage aside, and actually researching it during gameplay, I didn't find it much different at all from playing on Mute City back in all of the Melee tournaments I went to. Mute City also had a specific concept about its layout. Both players had to fight to keep control of the edge-less platform during its floating duration, both players were susceptible to gimps and characters like Peach and Jiggs had an advantage because of their air-prone playstyles; they have an advantage there because it is a perfectly acceptible counterpick stage that just so happens to mold well with the way those characters play, that's perfectly fine, and by all means those players will utilize it if it's not struck by the opponent. I will give it a little more time, but as of right now I see Port Town as an acceptable counterpick stage. Those who do not understand...I'll be frank and say you need to play more Melee and/or try to become a little more mature when it comes to having a competitive perspective. It stretches far beyond your initial, possibly subconscious self-serving impression of what competition is.

I put aside any personal bias, tried everything out for myself, and can honestly say that I've overcome ignorance for the sake of enlightenment, and I'm glad I did. Thumbs up on those two stages, BBR.

I wanted to quote this. Here you see a man (a good player at that) who was staunchly against the stage, tried it, and found it to be competitive.

Also, you guys are derailing this thread: this is not about the stage list, this is about the way the backroom functions. Its functioning and its history of output are two different things, and this thread is not to discuss the latter unless it is accompanied by a suggestion for the first. Stay on topic or go to Pierce's new thread to discuss stages.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

@nappy

"I just dodged ur lndmastr d00d"

Edit:look at the above post too.

 

[napZzz]

anytime I can even make one legit point noone responds to it they just pick at another part of my post so why bother being serious

with this avoidable logic on stage hazards technically you can get by it all, but whats considered fair? In the past and what should be now something that can kill you at an unreasonable percent or do uncalled for damage at random times is not considered fair and shouldn't be allowed inc ompetitive play. Simply saying it can be dodge does not mean you wont be hit by it....it can and WILL happen at one point or another making game changing sways and unfair bull**** happen

the lava on brinstar is JUST pushing the limits, same with rainbow cruises stage design in general

 

[-Vocal-]

Stop discussing your theories about what is dodgeable and what should or should not be allowed, please, I beg of you. This thread is trying to discuss something else and it is a good topic - please don't distract from it.

And Nappy, go increase your post count somewhere else. (I say this since you explicitly said you're using this controversy as a method to increase your post count.) Seriously; post your ideas about BR reform or take it elsewhere.

 

[lordhelmet]

I'm sigging this

smoke on my brothers

a moving screen isn't considered a hazard by his rules cuz you can just avoid it by their logic you can easily jump around anything that gets in your way, right? oh thats right too bad there is another person attacking you and you aren't able to avoid all the stupid bull**** on stages like green grens and port town aero dive because you'll probably get hit into it. I just love having the lead and dying to a car at a low percent its fantastic

just sayin, this avoidable logic is stupid. Cuz technically, everything on any stage is avoidable LOL

but rapture. It moves so slowly. Clearly its avoidable

I was actually just playing on PTAD earlier today. I've already gotten CG'd into a car (then lost) and gotten knocked into cars plenty of times.

-

In KBizzles's post:

"fight for the safe spot"

Translation: Fight the stage. Isn't that what you're not supposed to be doing in competitive brawl?

 

[Chuee]

I was actually just playing on PTAD earlier today. I've already gotten CG'd into a car (then lost) and gotten knocked into cars plenty of times.

Here you see a man who was staunchly against the stage, tried it, and found it to be gay.

 

[-Vocal-]

Guys.

STAY

ON

TOPIC

PLEASE

Just because many people are up in arms about the ruleset does not give you a right to hijack this thread for your own purposes! GO DISCUSS PTAD ELSEWHERE.

Please, this just is not the place for it.

 

[napZzz]

I was actually trying to avoid being sidetracked in this thread, but sometimes when I see idiocy I just cant ignore it...

I was going to originally make this in the first place talking to ran about it on aim, but he did it before I could......he actually started making this soon after i mentioned it to him on aim <_< just leave it at that. Learn only to speak when you know whats actually going on

anyways, I think there should be a set standard to be allowed in BBR, not just looking smart with clean posts. You should be of a certain skill level, activity, and have recommendations by other good players. Figuring out how this would work exactly wouldn't even be that hard, maybe a top player from each state or a few from each region in whatever country you're looking at would be fine

No need for tons of random nobodies who love to make clean posts where they look like they know what they're talking about

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Anyone who's complaining abut PTAD needs to read this.

Now, back in topic. What I think should be done is remove the inactive users.

 

[-Vocal-]

I was actually trying to avoid being sidetracked in this thread, but sometimes when I see idiocy I just cant ignore it...

I was going to originally make this in the first place talking to ran about it on aim, but he did it before I could......he actually started making this soon after i mentioned it to him on aim <_< just leave it at that. Learn only to speak when you know whats actually going on

anyways, I think there should be a set standard to be allowed in BBR, not just looking smart with clean posts. You should be of a certain skill level, activity, and have recommendations by other good players. Figuring out how this would work exactly wouldn't even be that hard, maybe a top player from each state or a few from each region in whatever country you're looking at would be fine

No need for tons of random nobodies who love to make clean posts where they look like they know what they're talking about

I don't think right now there ARE a lot of randoms nobodies in it. I know you have a bone to pick with BPC, but you can also notice that he's not a member. If I'm not mistaken, the only people allowed are top players, notable TOs, and good players with a deep understanding of the game.

Anyone who's complaining abut PTAD needs to read this.

Now, back in topic. What I think should be done is remove the inactive users.

Here, here. I hear they're trying to do this, so props to them for getting it in gear.

 

[napZzz]

For a full set of what should happen to make this easy, heres what I think should happen

step 1-Remove all inactive members.
step 2-remove any players who dont have tournament attendance, rankings, or aren't power ranked, etc. No need for a player who isn't good to be in there, because EXECUTION/EXPERIENCE>THEORY
step 3-add in new players chosen by the few good ones left and overall suggestions by what I posted in my last one, top players ranking well in their own region, maybe asking TO's who they think would be good for the job.

step 4-work for this with a little more time until something works out, profit!

I feel like if you aren't of a certain skill, you cant really make statements on anything. You dont really know how the game works at a high level of play where things matter unless you can be there yourself...TO's aren't always the greatest players themselves but can be allowed for stage discussion and other things. I know its not ALL nobodies, but as far as I can tell there are plenty of ppl who are far from being bbr material

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

step 2-remove any players who dont have tournament attendance, rankings, or aren't power ranked, etc. No need for a player who isn't good to be in there, because EXECUTION/EXPERIENCE>THEORY

I disagree. It doesn't take a #1 spot to understand how a stage works, and for testing. All the experience can be done on the wii at your home.

 

[napZzz]

step 2-remove any players who dont have tournament attendance, rankings, or aren't power ranked, etc. No need for a player who isn't good to be in there, because EXECUTION/EXPERIENCE>THEORY

I disagree. It doesn't take a #1 spot to understand how a stage works, and for testing.

thats the problem. they've been going by standards like this for awhile and this is how the bbr ended up

I'm not implying the BEST players, but I'm saying they should take a player who has what the normal bbr standards are, except is of a high level of play. Its much better when it comes to voting over matters and discussing a ruleset

 

[AfroQT]

I still can't believe Distant Planet was legalized before weed.

Man of the hour.

 

[Black Mantis]

You really have to question the effectiveness of a group that is supposed to be the best and brightest at the game, has over 100 members, but only has 20 of them vote and pick horrible stages that favor the most broken character in the game that still hasn't been banned yet.


I stated this before and now I state it again.

 

[-Vocal-]

So Nappy, you would entirely ban Link mains from the BR? As far as I know, there aren't any ranked Link mains (I could be wrong), and even if there are, there will still be plenty of great minds that main Link because they like the character. Maybe they can play Falco great as well, and a Snake for dittos, but if they choose to play Link because they like him then they will generally not be showing up on rankings, and that's the flaw with your method.

I agree that tournament attendance should indeed be a requirement before even being considered for acceptance, but this ranking requirement is both unnecessary and misguiding: some of the best players there are (M2K, ADHD, Ally to name a few) would not be fit to make your rulesets by themselves, so rankings do not mean a player should be admitted.

And you can have a huge amount of experience without being ranked - your system favors high tier mains far too greatly.

edit @Mantis: which is why some of them should be removed. I'd be much more comfortable if there were only 35 members and 20 voted on a given issue, since not everyone should be taken as an authority on all matters, but this does not mean that should not be taken as authorities on others.

 

[demonictoonlink]

M2K is not the best Diddy. I am!

 

[Eddie G]

I was actually just playing on PTAD earlier today. I've already gotten CG'd into a car (then lost) and gotten knocked into cars plenty of times.

-

In KBizzles's post:

"fight for the safe spot"

Translation: Fight the stage. Isn't that what you're not supposed to be doing in competitive brawl?

Your competitive mentality is that of a player spoiled by the lack of unsophisticated requirements for decision-making, including elements that may not always be in your control (hazards/minor hazards).

Would you like a true piece of competitive advice? Don't initially hinder yourself before the match even begins and main a better character, or at least one suitable enough to not get chaingrabbed into a car. If you're playing Captain Falcon on PTAD against a character that is capable of chaingrabbing you, then you're already doing it wrong. Don't blame the stage, the cars are avoidable. Your opponent just took advantage of your poor character choice and put you in a position where you involuntarily got hit by the cars. In essence: no johns, Falcon.

I won't continue this topic in this thread, however.

 

[-Vocal-]

Whoa, I was just about to talk about stages some more before I caught myself ^_^

So backroom reform?

 

[lordhelmet]

Your competitive mentality is that of a player spoiled by the lack of unsophisticated requirements for decision-making, including elements that may not always be in your control (hazards/minor hazards).

Would you like a true piece of competitive advice? Don't initially hinder yourself before the match even begins and main a better character, or at least one suitable enough to not get chaingrabbed into a car. If you're playing Captain Falcon on PTAD against a character that is capable of chaingrabbing you, then you're already doing it wrong. Don't blame the stage, the cars are avoidable. Your opponent just took advantage of your poor character choice and put you in a position where you involuntarily got hit by the cars. In essence: no johns, Falcon.

I won't continue this topic in this thread, however.

LMAO

Way to assume dude. I was fricken using Snake.

*continues reading*

Also, Bubba the Link main is ranked

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I agree that tournament attendance should indeed be a requirement before even being considered for acceptance, but this ranking requirement is both unnecessary and misguiding: some of the best players there are (M2K, ADHD, Ally to name a few) would not be fit to make your rulesets by themselves, so rankings do not mean a player should be admitted.

Would Online Tournaments count as tournament attendence? I'm pretty sure there are some people who are really smart, just can't go to tournies. OTs fix that.

 

[Eddie G]

The answer is simple. Keep the people who contribute something worthwhile around, and dump the dead weight. Everyone (top players included, they're not special) needs to be able to post more than simple one-liners and be able to post with an open mind/acknowledge another person's perspective while they discuss topics. That's how I'd run the operation, at least. People need to earn respect, not demand it.

@ Lordhelmet- You didn't clarify, so I went by what I saw. Well if you're Snake...don't get grabbed, or use your nades a little better to prevent those grabs next time, anything to prevent the situation from occurring, had you anticipated the current stage layout and if it was a portion with the hazards present. You getting knocked into a car by your opponent is no different than MK scoring a shuttle loop or uair kill off of the lava popping you up on Brinstar. I recommend you learn the stage some more.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Lol, picking a better character than Snake to avoid getting chaingrabbed into a car.

/looksaboveSnakeonthetierlist

I see what you did there....

 

[-Vocal-]

Would Online Tournaments count as tournament attendence? I'm pretty sure there are some people who are really smart, just can't go to tournies. OTs fix that.

No. Online tournaments should not count in the least. For one, there is no tournament environment - there aren't matches going on around you, you don't get to size up competition, and you don't know what it feels like. For another, it's very different to fight someone online than it is to fight someone in person sitting right next to you, not to mention an audience makes a difference as well. I feel that a BR member should know how tournament attendees experience tournaments in order to understand their mindset. Knowledge is not the only thing that matters.

 

[Eddie G]

Lol, picking a better character than Snake to avoid getting chaingrabbed into a car.

/looksaboveSnakeonthetierlist

I see what you did there....

Last I checked, Snake likes to get chaingrabbed. Just ask CO18. You're welcome to try and be cute some more.

Oh and...

or at least one suitable enough to not get chaingrabbed into a car.

Read a little more carefully, please.

@Thread- Whoops, got tempted into talking about stages again. Sorry about that.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Last I checked, Snake likes to get chaingrabbed. Just ask CO18. You're welcome to try and be cute some more.

@Thread- Whoops, got tempted into talking about stages again. Sorry about that.

Oh, of course, Snakes love getting chaingrabbed into cars that kill them at 40%. What was I thinking.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

No. Online tournaments should not count in the least. For one, there is no tournament environment - there aren't matches going on around you, you don't get to size up competition, and you don't know what it feels like. For another, it's very different to fight someone online than it is to fight someone in person sitting right next to you, not to mention an audience makes a difference as well. I feel that a BR member should know how tournament attendees experience tournaments in order to understand their mindset. Knowledge is not the only thing that matters.

Remind me, where does the enviornment come into play when making a list? When it comes down to it, brawl is all about the matches.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Remind me, where does the enviornment come into play when making a list? When it comes down to it, brawl is all about the matches.

The matches without some third-party variable like internet lag present to skew the results.

 

[Eddie G]

Oh, of course, Snakes love getting chaingrabbed into cars that kill them at 40%. What was I thinking.

I'm sure it's no more satisfying to lose a stock anywhere else. Your point?

Oh wait, more stage johns. Yes, pick MK, Peach, Jiggs, anyone that is better capable of avoiding a chaingrab, or who can't even get chaingrabbed at all. You guys have been spoiled into thinking that most/all of the viable roster should be competent on just about any stage. It doesn't work that way in Smash, guy. Have you ever played Melee? Have you ever been a spacie main on Mute City against a Peach or Jiggs? It's still legal, and we deal with it. You should too; stop letting your competitive perception be babied by artificial simplicity, it's extremely scrubby (no offense).

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

The matches without some third-party variable like internet lag present to skew the results.

Internet la doesn't help or hurt anybody. It just makes the match more annoying.

And why does everyone seem to think "Internet=lag. That place sucks."?

 

[-Vocal-]

Thanks Daomar; I was going to tack that as the obvious answer at the end of my post but forgot about it. I don't want to hear ANYTHING about how it can be adjusted to - there will always be lag and, as great of a learning tool as it can be, it will always be different. Even if you don't agree with my other points, lag nullifies online tournaments as a reliable source of experience.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

That only applies to serious lag, which then you should quit and try again. Minor lag is not a reason to call a method "unreliable"

 

[DaomarIsBear]

That only applies to serious lag, which then you should quit and try again. Minor lag is not a reason to call a method "unreliable"

Yes, yes it is.

 

[-Vocal-]

That only applies to serious lag, which then you should quit and try again. Minor lag is not a reason to call a method "unreliable"

Yes, yes it is.

Yes, yes it is. Slight lag can skew matchups quite drastically - I don't need to inform anyone of wifIke. Even aside from that, just the very fact that the game is played on an entirely different timing system than irl makes a difference. This point is not debatable.

So to relate this back to the thread's topic: wifi gameplay is not an adequate source of experience for admission to the BR. I don't think it was before anyways

 

[clowsui]

Actually, KB...Mute and Floats aren't legal in Melee any more

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Internet la doesn't help or hurt anybody. It just makes the match more annoying.

You hear that sound? That is the sound of your credibility dying.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Lol, I've been hearing that sound in every thread he posts in.

 

[-Vocal-]

You hear that sound? That is the sound of your credibility dying.

I was trying to give you a chance to recover it, as I hate to keep people down for things they say...but I'm afraid the Colonel is right. No one will listen to you if you continue to say that lag does not always matter.

Anyways, while making myself a sandwich, I had a thought.

There is a lot of talk about how people don't like the BBR and that it should be reformed, right? One of these main arguments is that the inactive people should be removed. Ok, let's say those 80 or whatever people were hypothetically removed: we would still have this ruleset. This is the product of those willing to put in the time and effort to debate about AND test things, and saying that their work is terrible simply because there are other, less motivated individuals associated with them is not fair. Perhaps you can say that there are others that should be admitted in the BR to make "better" decisions, but there are two issues here: first, you cannot get rid of those already active, many of whom apparently support these stages and rules; second, you cannot assume that allowing more competent members into the BR would have produced a different result.

Let us take this last point a bit further. As mant BBroomers have told us, there have been several heated debates when making decisions about this ruleset, sometimes many for one seperate aspect (as they had 3 discussions just for Pirate Ship). We have also heard that during this debate, people were convinced by different sides and sometimes changed their minds.

You have not seen their discussion, so for you to say that someone who is currently against a stage would still be against it had he been present for their discussion is both presumptive and arrogant - arrogant for thinking that everyone in the BR is incapable of thinking and that you are better than them.

I hope this makes you think.

 

[fUddO]

I keep seeing the "voting mandatory" catchphrase popping up. How would this cover the BBRoomers who followed and participated in the discussion, and failed to come to a conclusion, or as some people already pointed out, people like M2K and Ally, who are extremely valuable when it comes to the discussion of character capabilities, but generally have an agenda when it comes to stuff like stage lists?