Ok, sooooo... lots of discussion happening, eh? First of all, Vyse asked me to respond to the below post specifically, so I'll start with that:
I hate how turning items on could solve so many problems, but also change the game quite a lot as well.
There are so many random aspects and properties in this game (Turnips, waddle dees, 9-Hammer, misfires, tripping and moves that cause tripping, etc) that I'm beginning to believe Item standard play, by creating a universal set of possible, random attacks given the right situations, would help balance the game rather than unbalance it.
Vyse, I congratulate you! I've been dealing with items for over 2 years now. I've had Yuna, RDK, mods, BR member, top players, nobodies, and everyone in-between give every sort of argument for, against, neutral... but never before have I heard something as purely INSIGHTFUL as what you just said:
"A universal set of possible, random attacks"
That's EXACTLY what items are supposed to do! They don't just randomize: they STANDARDIZE! How brilliant! Imagine: the greatest hurdle to competitive fighting game design, by the very admission of game designers themselves, has always been reconciling balance with uniqueness. On one hand, if every character is the same, there is pure, ultimate balance. After all, what is a more balanced matchup than a ditto? But that's no fun! There's no evolution, no change, no progress, no difference... If every match ends up playing out the same, who would play at all?
On the OTHER hand, you have each character playing COMPLETELY differently... but that's a problem, too! Take Guilty Gear, where every single character operates on a totally different set of mechanics... imagine how LONG and how HARD you'd have to work to balance so many mechanics that work NOTHING like each other. How do you measure the relative worth of all those parts? Even worse, how do you anticipate the myriad of possible combination of moves for all the possible combinations of scenarios for all the possible combinations of characters... My head hurts just thinking about it. Something is BOUND to go wrong, and when it DOES, you end up having Ganon v ICs.
But... how about the happy medium? Give each character their individual capabilities, but bind them all together with a universal set of mechanics. Keep them unique, but give them concepts that can be anticipated, controlled, reacted to no matter WHICH characters are playing... Brilliant! You run into the risk of players forgoing the individual characteristics of each character in favor of the (possibly) better universal mechanics...
But, you take them away periodically! It's the perfect system! Create a cycle to the match! For a while, you have to rely on your individual strengths, for a while you can lean on the universal tactics, back and forth, back and forth... It makes the matches dynamic! It's like only being able to periodically shield or airdodge. Only those moves are TOO basic, TOO universal. You ALWAYS need those, so... VOILA! Items. Periodical offensive tools used to standardize an otherwise unruly cast and an otherwise unruly game.
"A universal set of possible, random attacks"
I think we may have just hit something important. I think there's more to items than even I had thought possible. Especially considering all of the universal ATs that can only be performed with items: the various glide tosses, instant throws, z-drops... Oh, yes, I think we've missed quite a bit.
I hate the idea of having two players at high percents on their last stocks standing at opposite ends of FD, and then having something like a Green Shell appear next to one of them to give them the edge, but I'd rather be outplayed that way than having a trip punished by an infinite chaingrab.
What people forget is that NO MATTER WHAT, item play always gives players a chance to respond. Even if your opponent gets an item spawn that's random and (what some might say) undeserved... he still has to USE it, and this game gives you SO MANY ways to muck up that usage. Seriously, in item play, SHAD is just OVERPOWERED sometimes.
EDIT:
Here's another way to look at it.
Situation A: Metaknight has a percent lead and is planking you.
Situation B: Metaknight has a percent lead and an item just appeared at his feet.
Which situation would you prefer to be in?
I'd rather him have the item. At least I can
steal the item; I can't stop PPlanking.
Also, something else to comment on: the ISP thread, in particular, hasn't specifically tested items, in general or specific ones, against PPlanking. That being said, I can comment on a theoretical basis. When an item is thrown, the hitbox stays out until either the item comes to COMPLETE rest, or the item goes away (falls off the stage, "times out" and fades away, is used up, etc.). It could be THEORETICALLY possible to hit MK during that ONE crucial frame of invulnerability with the lingering hitbox of a thrown item, but we've TRIED that with other projectiles. Grenades, bananas, turnips, bombs, arrows, missiles, boomerangs... everything this board has attempted to use has failed.
Part of the reason is that any THROWABLE projectile can be simply CAUGHT by MK. Remember, aerial moves can CATCH projectiles, if timed properly. His U-air can just catch anything thrown down at him. If that's to work, the item would have to be large enough to have a hitbox PAST his U-air on that one frame. A Beam Sword or Cracker Launcher perhaps. We also have to remember that the hitbox of his U-Air can clash with certain items and prevent them from ever reaching MK. The best method of approach would be to throw something at him from the SIDE, have the item bounce off the stage wall and linger in MK's area before it falls.
...of course, YOU try jumping laterally out from the stage against MK. See how it works, having MK between you and the stage.
Oh, and sorry for the tone of this particular post; I've been watching a LOT of Doctor Who today, and I have David Tennant on the brain... Feel free to read this post in David Tennant's voice.
