BBR Recommended Rule List v2.0 & General Ruleset Discussion

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Not wanting any hazards at all though? Completely anti-brawl. I would have trouble naming stages that don't have hazards in some form. FD, BF, Temple, and...

 

[-Vocal-]

It's an opinion vastly different from yours. So what? I believe that some hazards are fine in a competitive environment just as you do, but not everyone automatically thinks that way. Try to convince him that he should think otherwise, but don't belittle him for holding an opinion.

edit: Or (just thought of this) you could just ignore him ^_^

 

[Jack Kieser]

-Vocal-, you're not understanding something. If I think Chess could be more competitive with some random chance, then my opinion IS AT ODDS WITH THE GAME, as the game was designed to eliminate random chance. If my opinion is at complete odds with the game, yeah, I should just play another game. It's like blaming Mass Effect for being a shooter, or Pokemon for having critical hits. If you don't like the MOST BASIC ELEMENTS of a game, play another game.

Stages that affect the match in various ways are a part of Brawl, simple as that. We could reduce the stage list to only FD, and the stage would still affect the game. FD is ground-based, which would artificially buff ground-based characters like D3, Falco, ICs, and Diddy. And, it STILL has the **** lip. Yes, I know, you should play around it, but the point is that Street Fighter doesn't have stages with a fruit cart on the ground that you have to play around, or something equally as intrusive. Stages in ANY other competitive game are irrelevant; just pick random and let the game load, because it doesn't matter. Stages are a BIG part of Brawl, and to say that stage hazards are automatically bad just because YOU don't like them is at odds with the whole POINT of the game.

It's like blaming Brawl for being a fighting game.

So, yeah, he should just go play Street Fighter, because if the hazard gives you warning and you still get hit, YOU WERE OUTPLAYED. Deal with it.

 

[-Vocal-]

You're misunderstanding two things about my position. First of all, save your words about hazards; in case you missed me saying it the first time, I'M ON YOUR SIDE. Second, your chess example is not valid. That game is played exactly as it was created, nothing removed. Competitive Brawl is different. The community has both removed items (not talking about ISP), certain stages, and certain strategies (standing infinites come to mind) to create what they believe is a competitive ruleset. We play the game within the rules that we've created - they did not exist before the community created them, and they were created by people stating their opinions. So how can you ridicule this guy for holding a different opinion when opinions are what the entire competitive Brawl scene has been built upon?

Tl;dr You and I hold an opinion of how the rules of the game as it was created should be changed; he holds a different one. Don't tell him he's wrong for holding an opinion.

stillTL;stillDR Be civil

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, first of all, I don't see how I'm not being civil. My position isn't all rainbows and bunnies, but it's not like I'm calling anyone names or I'm saying things without having a reason to back it.

Secondly, not all opinions are created equal. Hell, if all it takes to make a position valid is to say "Well, that's my opinion, and everyone is entitled to their opinion", then my opinion is that Smash is more competitive when played with Flowers, Heavy, 2x speed with only fire flowers active on Shadow Moses. That's my opinion, and everyone has their opinion. Forget that it's pants-on-head ******** and that I can't support it. It's an opinion, and opinions are untouchable.

I'm not telling AtticusFinch that he can't have an opinion, but if he wants to post in the BBR ruleset DISCUSSION thread, he should be able to back it up and protect it from an onslaught of other opinions and philosophies. BPC and I aren't going to pull punches just because he has an opinion. Now, if Atticus wants to defend his opinion and explain why its ok to ban essential and hard-wired facets of the game for no other competitive reason than "we don't like that", he can feel free. And if he has an amazing argument for his position, I'll gladly congratulate him on it and switch positions.

But, this is a discussion thread. We'll discuss his opinion, and he may not like it.

 

[-Vocal-]

When he said that he believed that Brawl should be played without hazards, BPC instantly said "Go play SF" as though playing Brawl without hazards is not a point worth being discussed. "Go play SF" is not discussion, it's dismissal.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The entire position of "I want to play against you, not the hazards" is a position of dismissal. First of all, no one has EVER proven that position to be the ONLY, or even the BEST, way to play a competitive game. He didn't back up the position at all, he just said, "I want to play against you, not the hazards". But, the hazards are a BIG part of Brawl. A BIG part. That's like saying "I want to play against Ryu, not his hadouken". He asserted, for instance, that "having an advantage on a level just by it's design(Not hazards) is acceptable", but he didn't explain why hazards AREN'T part of the design of the level in the first place! It's a complete dismissal of hazards because, essentially, he doesn't "like" playing with them.

But, if he doesn't like hazards, than Brawl isn't the game he should be playing, because hazards are as much a part of the levels as getting knocked off is a part of getting KO'ed. It's like complaining that you have to get the opponent's health bar ALL the way down to KO him in SF. It's like saying you don't like headshots not giving OHKO's in Halo. It's like saying rooks are a ******** part of Chess. You don't like it? But... it's part of the game.

If you have a position THAT invasive of the game itself, you had better have some **** good logic behind it. Unfortunately, all we got was that statement of "I want to play against you, not the hazards"... hence the dismissal.

 

[-Vocal-]

You missed my point. Items were a BIG part of Brawl. Until we removed them. Do you see what I'm saying now? We've removed a lot of things that were big in the game; he just prefers to go a step further. So what? I disagree, but I'm not going to tell him he shouldn't play the game; I'm just going to say to him that he should step outside of his comfort zone.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, you know my position on items: just like most stages, we jumped the gun. But, the mistake YOU'RE making is that you're assuming that the decision to remove this, that, or the other was a JUSTIFIED decision in the first place. I'm not. I'm working off of the premise that this community has done some pants-on-head ******** things in the past; just because we've done ******** and unjustified things in the PAST doesn't mean we should continue to do ******** and unjustified things in the FUTURE.

Our telling him "the go play Street Fighter" is our way of "tough love", as it were; the harsh language is SUPPOSED to wake him up and make him (and others) think about how dumb it is to ban things without a good reason, and "I don't prefer to play with that" is NOT a good reason. It never was, it isn't now, and it NEVER will be. People can play semantics and bull**** all they want, but banning anything without a COMPETITIVE reason is bad for the game. Period. End of discussion. It leads you into these very problems, where we have EC v Everyone else, or we have characters becoming artificially buffed due ONLY to the ruleset or stage list, or we have characters being artificially NERFED, or we have balance issues, or camping issues, or WHATEVER.

I am a firm proponent that most of the balance issues we have today are of OUR OWN DESIGN. And banning stages because "[he] doesn't like them" isn't helping. This might sound harsh, and it's understandable, but honestly, if it comes down to either:

A ) harming the game because of unjustified bans, either directly (in terms of depth) or indirectly (by reinforcing bad habits in the community)

or

B ) having that one guy not play

...guess which one I'd choose.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You missed my point. Items were a BIG part of Brawl. Until we removed them. Do you see what I'm saying now? We've removed a lot of things that were big in the game; he just prefers to go a step further. So what? I disagree, but I'm not going to tell him he shouldn't play the game; I'm just going to say to him that he should step outside of his comfort zone.

We haven't removed items from the game. Stop claiming this. The game gives us the option to turn them off, we used that.

 

[Jack Kieser]

BPC, I'm going to steal a quotation from AA from the thread in your sig. I hope you don't mind.

I usually try to be more diplomatic than BPC is being in this topic, but the basic message here about how banning stuff that you can't be sure is broken is scrubby is probably a good message. I wouldn't dream of "telling people how to play" in the sense that if they want to play on only Final Destination or with all items on or with permanent super spicy curry mixed with coin mode, I don't mind (and no one should mind). There is a point though in condemning bad policy as people try to apply it to a tournament setting; when someone goes out and makes sure Pokemon Stadium 2 isn't legal at some tournaments because he thinks the stage is "dumb" or "gay", he's not just deciding how he and his friends are going to play but limiting how we all play. That's less okay.

 

[Pierce7d]

That's an EXCELLENT quote Jack. However, I still feel the need to say that playing on simpler stages is proven to be a viable option for competative play. It doesn't even remove any "key" elements of Brawl, though I will grant that dynamic stages are a trademark of Smash. To maintain what many people (including myself) continue to be an important part of Brawl, we try to diversify the stage list. However, we don't necessarily need diverse stages, and it's perfectly okay to want to play Brawl, while not liking the dynamic stage aspect, even on a competitive level.

In the end, these things ARE matters of opinion, so the community should decide them. I strongly wish that the public had more of a voice in the BBR, but from observations on the public, I do agree with the need to have a slightly more educated and exemplary body to make some of the decisions we must. Unfortunately, not even everyone in the BR understands how to shape healthy competition.

In the end, I think it would be best for the public to elect a small percentage of the BBR.

 

[-Vocal-]

Pierce, thank you; all I was trying to say was that it was just an opinion. As far as the decisions, I'm not so sure on that point; I probably wouldn't be too helpful in electing members of the BBR to make decisions because I'm not familiar with most of them, not sure how everyone else on this site is ^_^

And Jack, I would not have had any qualms if BPC had just quoted that from the beginning, because that's having a discussion.

 

[ADHD]

Jack Keiser, BPC, Raziek, and Overswarm would have the BEST round of Mario Party everrr!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Jack Keiser, BPC, Raziek, and Overswarm would have the BEST round of Mario Party everrr!

And ADHD and Orion still really wish ad hominem was actually a valid form of argument!

If you don't think that items, or moving stages, or randomness within our reaction time is competitive, then go play street fighter prove it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It doesn't matter, BPC, because it's all a matter of preference. It totally DOESN'T make you scrubby and anti-competitive to hack out parts of the game with no other justification than "I don't like that". That's...

...all the proof they need.

YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

EDIT: It's also nice to see ADHD trolling threads again. And by "nice", I mean "not nice". And, post 2,000! Yay!

 

[ADHD]

And ADHD and Orion still really wish ad hominem was actually a valid form of argument!

If you don't think that items, or moving stages, or randomness within our reaction time is competitive, then go play street fighter prove it.

No, believe me I'm smart enough to stay out of this thread. I'm going to let the theory-crafters (who haven't gotten the point yet after everyone has ignored them) continue to spew the same old until they leech on like parasites to another gaming community, perhaps.

For example, Jack Keiser, imagine how good of a player you would be if you sucked up that our ruleset isn't changing, mained metaknight, watched & studied Mew2King's videos, and practiced this game equally for the amount of hours you resided here preeching about items and Shadow Moses. I gaurantee, that by now you'd indefinitely be makin dat $$$.

I remember one year--maybe even two years--you were the great crusader of the items ordeal. Let me ask you, have you accomplished anything? Anything at all? I really am interested to hear the response.

BPC, your endless debating is futile, when you are not exactly (well, I shouldn't say that, NOT AT ALL) part of the competitive community. So why do you continue to sit on your pedestal trying to change the way a separate body plays Brawl, when you are not part of that entity? I could realistically cut you some slack for your efforts if you were able to experience the rulesets you were promoting, but you can't, and never will.

TL:DR version: You are hindering this community from advancing to real issues at hand, whether you believe it or not. We (the ones that indeed do actually practice this game) would prefer it if we did not return to the primitive state of early Melee. Thank you veddy much.

 

[Jack Kieser]

For example, Jack Keiser, imagine how good of a player you would be if you sucked up that our ruleset isn't changing, mained metaknight, watched & studied Mew2King's videos, and practiced this game equally for the amount of hours you resided here preeching about items and Shadow Moses. I gaurantee, that by now you'd indefinitely be makin dat $$$.

First of all, dude... how many times have you namedropped me in a thread before? KIESER. It's not that strange of a spelling. Two: there's a reason I have the blue "Tournament Director" name. Smash is fun, but I don't have the hand/eye coordination or muscle memory to play top level matches. I came to terms with that, and I enjoy just playing friendlies and hosting tournaments.

Also, I've never said Shadow Moses wasn't a dumb stage.

I remember one year--maybe even two years--you were the great crusader of the items ordeal. Let me ask you, have you accomplished anything? Anything at all? I really am interested to hear the response.

I'd say I accomplished quite a bit. First of all, no one, and I mean NOBODY, thought that a working items ruleset could be feasibly made. Now, the only people who think that are the people too biased to try it. Enjoy it or not, it works, and that WHOBO tournament proved it. On a personal level, I've grown quite a bit in the understanding of the mechanics of this game, something that's, you know, kind of important for a TO. Second, I was NEVER the "great crusader of items". I was arguing for majority rule, with minority rights. The items things was just a side-bet between Yuna and me. It was the means, but not the end. Again, personally, I'm very grateful for it because it was a mega-project that helped get me out of a pretty serious bout of depression. So, yeah, I'd say I accomplished a lot.

TL:DR version: You are hindering this community from advancing to real issues at hand, whether you believe it or not. We (the ones that indeed do actually practice this game) would prefer it if we did not return to the primitive state of early Melee. Thank you veddy much.

You, ADHD, would prefer it if we had a nice, big rule that stated "ADHD wins all cash prizes from now on". You, the player, shouldn't matter at all in the creation of the ruleset because you have a conflict of interest. Any rule that helps you is good, and any rule that doesn't is bad. I'm not saying you do this consciously, but that's how humans operate. If I had my way and I could rebuild the community, I'd make the BBR have a membership of NOTHING but TOs, and have a separate "Smash Consultant" role for top players. Top players could comment on the discussion, but they couldn't actually vote on the rules or make/propose any rules themselves. Players are too biased for that.

I have much more detailed posts about the conflict of interest between players and the rules of the game in other threads, but if you want, I can explain it to you in more detail.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No, believe me I'm smart enough to stay out of this thread. I'm going to let the theory-crafters (who haven't gotten the point yet after everyone has ignored them) continue to spew the same old until they leech on like parasites to another gaming community, perhaps.

Yeah, and Sirlin was totally a leech on the SF community when he posted a massive game design theory blog that basically defined competitive gaming for years to come.

BPC, your endless debating is futile, when you are not exactly (well, I shouldn't say that, NOT AT ALL) part of the competitive community. So why do you continue to sit on your pedestal trying to change the way a separate body plays Brawl, when you are not part of that entity? I could realistically cut you some slack for your efforts if you were able to experience the rulesets you were promoting, but you can't, and never will.

1. I play wifi. CONSTANTLY. Like, hours a day, usually against people who are several degrees better than me because I know getting ***** is better than winning-you learn more. I bug people who are better than me to help me find out where I am lacking (which is annoying because most of them on smashboards are not from the EU). I am doing everything in my power to get better. I can take stocks off of players who are legitimately really good (NEpro, AKA Mikeray, for example-he's pretty far up on the PR both in new england and AiB).
1a. I am consistently encountered by idiots who, playing as diddy kong or falco, find it perfectly fine to pick FD game one, and then another time if they lost, and another time, and then AGAIN after winning on it the last game, and then ragequit if I pick a stage like PTAD or Norfair bawwing about the stage being unfair; this issue is therefore not nonconsequential to me.
2. When I'm back from my summer vacation, I'm going to be starting a scene in my local area. A competitive scene. Didn't you notice my thread? And I'll be ****ed if you expect me to recommend a ruleset to them that clearly can't be supported by any real arguments!
3. It's certainly not for lack of trying. If there were any tournaments closer to me than like Berlin, I would go! But I'm not in tournament central (bavaria ****ing blows for brawl), and I do not yet have a driver's license or a job to back up my traveling.
4. Ho hum. (yes, those are all individual links)

TL:DR version: You are hindering this community from advancing to real issues at hand, whether you believe it or not. We (the ones that indeed do actually practice this game) would prefer it if we did not return to the primitive state of early Melee. Thank you veddy much.

Real issues? What real issues? What issues are more critical than "75% of the community is made up of gigantic scrubs and they are forcing their playstyle and rulesets on us" at the moment? And do you really think this is stopping metagame developments? If we had our way with the stagelist, it would open up a ridiculous amount of room! Like people finding out "holy **** the limited ground chars are absolutely obscene on obscure counterpick X, Y, or Z for some reason" (like, Diddy I can imagine being absolutely incredible on PTAD. Double nanner lock doesn't kill you at 50 normally). Or people needing to find strats against tactics by other characters that were developed on obscure counterpick stages. You're the one limiting the metagame, not us.

 

[Jack Kieser]

<3's for BPC. Yay for discussing the ruleset in the ruleset discussion thread.

 

[DunnoBro]

It's funny how ADHD gets@people for just trying to have fun.
Go back to losing to ally plzkthx.

And don't talk about things you obviously know nothing of, ADHD.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, this is the best part about Ally and M2K compared to ADHD. They don't try to join arguments where they obviously have no clue what the hell they are talking about and couldn't formulate arguments beyond "you are dumb" if they did.

 

[DunnoBro]

Uhm, they generally just don't join arguments at all.
Especially ally lol. He's pretty casual, for one of the most pro people EVER.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Ally needs not talk with all the dickriding he gets from every other random ever.

Me being one of them.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ally needs not talk with all the dickriding he gets from every other random ever.

Me being one of them.

I don't even... know how to respond to this.

 

[ADHD]

Uhm, they generally just don't join arguments at all.
Especially ally lol. He's pretty casual, for one of the most pro people EVER.

Ally agrees with generally most of what I say, especially about stages. At a certain point Elliot gave up. He can be pretty cocky, and Jason? lol

He's the most biased of us all..

 

[DunnoBro]

What does that have to do with anything?
I didn't say if he agreed, or disagreed with anyone. I just said he generally stays out of arguments.

Way to derail the topic even more, bro.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Just stop replying to ADHD; it's harder for him to troll the topic if you do.

 

[DunnoBro]

Mah bad.
2 nub u c.

 

[ADHD]

What does that have to do with anything?
I didn't say if he agreed, or disagreed with anyone. I just said he generally stays out of arguments.

Way to derail the topic even more, bro.

Aight brah.

cuz randoms who combine pokemon with gaming characters for avatars are so important to me. In fact, I am going to fuse a jinx with ganondorf and set it as mine, eat a ****.

 

[Player-1]

jynx's evolution IS ganondorf, wyatt...dont u know nething?

 

[DunnoBro]

Only male Jynx's evolve into a ganondorf, dude.

...

Spamming aside, i wonder why all NJ players are such bad trolls?

 

[ADHD]

Only male Jynx's evolve into a ganondorf, dude.

I'm pretty sure Jynx has a bigger **** than ganondorf, she is much darker after all.

Are you getting this Hylian?

 

[Player-1]

if male jynxs evolve into ganondorf then that must means female jynxs evolve into britney spears!

 

[ADHD]

...

Spamming aside, i wonder why all NJ players are such bad trolls?

I'm sorry our smash scene is not up to par with Idaho's trolling.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

The best part about ADHD's trolling is that he's better at this game than you could ever fathom being, and he doesn't give a ****. About anything.

 

[Orion*]

If you don't think that items, or moving stages, or randomness within our reaction time is competitive, then go play street fighter prove it.

you actually have zero idea what your talking about LOL.

1. I play wifi. CONSTANTLY. Like, hours a day, usually against people who are several degrees better than me because I know getting ***** is better than winning-you learn more. I bug people who are better than me to help me find out where I am lacking (which is annoying because most of them on smashboards are not from the EU). I am doing everything in my power to get better. I can take stocks off of players who are legitimately really good (NEpro, AKA Mikeray, for example-he's pretty far up on the PR both in new england and AiB).

i dont think you understand the skill gap between mikeray and a top player >_>. you can take "stocks" off of a average snake LOL.

also, wifi LOL good ****. wifi is good for learning, and thinking will transfer into irl play. however you cant learn how to adapt properly to a lot of situations, especially proper punishing through Just playing wifi. your lack of inexperience really shows

heres a good example. A LOCAL YOSHI/MK IN MY TOWN i decided to apprentice. I played him twice a week for a lot of hours during the school year. he really started to show improvement but hes Very incapable of placing in money in good regions.
4th on the ladder is a top player from mexico (wario i forget his name) and wins tournaments out there. my local friend beat him in grand finals recently and made 250$ when he went to mexico for summer vacation

Real issues? What real issues? What issues are more critical than "75% of the community is made up of gigantic scrubs and they are forcing their playstyle and rulesets on us" at the moment? And do you really think this is stopping metagame developments? If we had our way with the stagelist, it would open up a ridiculous amount of room! Like people finding out "holy **** the limited ground chars are absolutely obscene on obscure counterpick X, Y, or Z for some reason" (like, Diddy I can imagine being absolutely incredible on PTAD. Double nanner lock doesn't kill you at 50 normally). Or people needing to find strats against tactics by other characters that were developed on obscure counterpick stages. You're the one limiting the metagame, not us.

LOL IRONY

 

[Mr.-0]

<3's for BPC. Yay for discussing the ruleset in the ruleset discussion thread.

Lol if it wasn't for me, this probably wouldn't have been here yet. And for the record guys, I agree with ADHD. By the way, ADHD, at fusion, i was the person who typed TALK TO ME ADHD!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

you actually have zero idea what your talking about LOL.


i dont think you understand the skill gap between mikeray and a top player >_>. you can take "stocks" off of a average snake LOL.

Probably not. But he's at least decent in the sense that he's on the NEPR, and the point is I'm getting people like him and others to play me so I can try to spot my weak points.

also, wifi LOL good ****. wifi is good for learning, and thinking will transfer into irl play. however you cant learn how to adapt properly to a lot of situations, especially proper punishing through Just playing wifi. your lack of inexperience really shows

heres a good example. A LOCAL YOSHI/MK IN MY TOWN i decided to apprentice. I played him twice a week for a lot of hours during the school year. he really started to show improvement but hes Very incapable of placing in money in good regions.
4th on the ladder is a top player from mexico (wario i forget his name) and wins tournaments out there. my local friend beat him in grand finals recently and made 250$ when he went to mexico for summer vacation

I know.

LOL IRONY

Not seeing it.

 

[Mr.-0]

BPC didn't respond to me . And niether did ADHD... . I honestly think that items and the ability to deal with a random event that pops up al ot and could give a player a distinct advantage are alien to the rest of the game, and distract from the rest of the game, and therefore should be banned. I mean, think about it. An item pops up next to you . You go and grab it. Your opponent does the same. Number one, stopping what you're doing and dashing to and picking up an item has nothing to do with and is alien to the rest of competitive brawl. Plus, add up all the seconds you and your opponent would waste getting items total. Like, a half a minute. That distracts, big time, from the rest of competitive brawl. I'll post more later. AND ADHD TALK TO ME!

On a side note, I bought Starcraft 2 yesterday and I really like it.