BBR Recommended Rule List v2.0 & General Ruleset Discussion

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Lol Corneria is banned. Thank goodness, that was a rubbish stage for Peach xD

Isn't Norfair considered a bad stage because of the ability to plank like crazy? Hmmm...

Interesting to see that Japes is still there xD

 

[Meleeruler]

The list looks good to me.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Fastyouwish:

As Ankoku said, Bowser's claw is addressed in order to remove the influence of port priority on the result of the match. .The other suicide moves do not factor in port priority so we didn't feel the need to address them quite so urgently. They are being discussed and may be revised into further updates.

 

[Poltergust]

Oh, I like this stage list! I knew that Corneria had to be a banned stage. And it's nice to see Rainbow Cruise stay strong in the counterpick list, even though there was no re-vote for it. ^_^

(I still don't get why most people ban RC in Florida. It makes no sense. <_<)

 

[EdreesesPieces]

The reason I voted against Corneria is a combination of the following: ((Keep in mind, its not ONE of these things on their own, but the combination of ALL of them that had me vote against it)

A) The stage encourages excessive levels of camping. NOT only this, but the fact that the campee is in a seriously disdvantaged position trying to get the camper. If you hide on the upper left portion of the stage, you can just wait for someone going around the fin and have a ridiculous advantage as they have to use their recovery getting around (you are basically in a position of edgeguarding them). If you are camping below the fin, you can plank on it, and unlike real planking, you don't lose a stock if you mess up, you just fall. The combination of lots of camping and the camper having a seriously massive advantage is a huge deterrent to the competitive worth in the stage.
B) The hazards are very involving and often decide the match, from the beam on the left end, to getting stuck on an R-wing, to slippy and star wolf shooting at you. Three different hazards.
C) Wall infinites are easy to set up
D)Ledge invincibility is easily abused on the fin part.

Quite simply a stage that has ALL of these is just a stage I don't consider a stage that is evaluating real competitive play between two players.

These are NOT reasons why I'm against it:
-Small blast zones
-That some characters are better than others on it

 

[Ruse]

So, some stages got moved around. Thanks a lot, SBR. Really.

 

[bobson]

B) The hazards are very involving and often decide the match, from the beam on the left end, to getting stuck on an R-wing, to slippy and star wolf shooting at you. Three different hazards.

Are you serious? I've never seen ANYONE die from getting stuck on an Arwing, and I play with horrible, horrible players. The beam on the left is incredibly obvious and you should only ever be hit by it if you're forced into it or camping on the laser. I don't see how you could possibly say that the hazards on Corneria "often decide the match."

 

[Asdioh]

Skyworld 0-12-8 >>> 0-0-16



Stages become Starter stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that each stage is overall a fair stage with only minimal advantages and disadvantages given that has an overall low number of hazards, ineffective hazards, or basic hazards that can be predicted and implemented into a strategy.

Stages become Counterpick stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that they are not an overall fair stage in that they give specific advantages and disadvantages to certain types of characters, so much so that it can influence the match directly. Or, that the stage has hazards that disrupt play to such an extent that it cannot be assumed the player can avoid them with minimal effort or the hazards have such incredible damage and knockback that they can directly influence the outcome of a match.

Stages become Banned stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that they are not a fair or competitive stage at all, in that certain characters can easily have a near 100% win rate against others at top level play or that a large majority of the cast cannot actively be played on this stage, or that the stage simply requires such a radical change in gameplay that players cannot be reasonably expected to adapt (such as the Cave of Immortality in Hyrule Temple). Hazards can also cause a stage to be banned if they are random in nature and thus directly disrupting gameplay on a consistent basis, or if they are so powerful and/or unavoidable that they directly determine the outcome of a match on a consistent basis.

I guess, by looking at these criteria, I can see why Skyworld is banned. I'm surprised it was unanimous, to be honest. It was banned because certain characters have a near 100% win ratio, and other characters are nearly unplayable? Has this been proven anywhere? It obviously has no deadly/random hazards, it just emphasizes stagespiking and wallteching more than any other stage in the game.

I wouldn't really know by testing though, since this has been banned at almost every tournament I've seen.

And by these definitions, Corneria sounds more like a Counterpick than a Banned. Though I do agree it should be banned; every match I see or play there becomes a campfest.


I'm wondering why some of the stages weren't discussed.

I'm also wondering why those "joke votes" were included in the public release of this... very professional

 

[Turbo Ether]

I like the stage list, too bad my region won't adopt it.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm not sure if I agree with all the reasons why Corneria was banned... but Jigglypuff certain isn't complaining!

Whoa.

Whoa.

All my life, in Melee and Brawl, my personal ban has ALWAYS been Corneria...

Now I can ban ANOTHER stage?!?!

Mind-blowing...

Also, I can't remember how many minor changes were made to the rest of the rules, but they are in a very presentable and easy to read/understand state now. Great job.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Are you serious? I've never seen ANYONE die from getting stuck on an Arwing, and I play with horrible, horrible players. The beam on the left is incredibly obvious and you should only ever be hit by it if you're forced into it or camping on the laser. I don't see how you could possibly say that the hazards on Corneria "often decide the match."

That's such a minor detail of my arguement. Fine, I stand corrected. "Sometimes decide the match" The entire list of reasons I gave combined still warrants a ban in my eyes. But really, out of 20 tournament matches I've seen on that stage, either the blast shot or the lasers or an R-wing have taken a stock of at least one player about 10 of those which I considered often. But rather than argue this point I'm just going to make the point that the banning stands even if it occurs "sometimes" rather than often.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think the camping and the extreme bias for/against certain characters/matchups (all mostly relating to the "corner") are the best argument against the stage. I'm still not sold on it being a solid enough argument to warrant a full ban...

...but I'm still delighted! :D

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Stages are MUCH better in my opinion.

 

[TP]

Actually, it's because Bowser's Claw relies solely on controller slot, while Ganon's Aerial Flame Choke does not.

It does not rely solely on port, but port is still the most important factor. The other factors are rarely on issue. More importantly, tournaments everywhere consider a ganoncide a victory for Ganon. Popularity of a rule should lead to a rule's inclusion.

 

[AOB]

Most of the members of the SBR did not know Ganon was a playable character until this post.

Wait a minute. Since when can you play Ganon?

 

[Meleeruler]

He's that racist character.

 

[Plum]

The G&W main in me cries seeing Corneria on the ban list. With most places I go to banning Green Greens, that just leaves me with Cruise, and that just gets banned against me anyways :\
I'm going to have to learn to love some new stages.

 

[Deathcarter]

Woot, Pirate Ship is not banned! Ike can still go to his true home.

 

[Smasher89]

When I see the list I get to think about having some extra otherwise campbanned stages in teams competive play.
As i read here corneria often becomes campfests in singles , but what if it were allowed in teams? would it be overcentralizing the metagame with snakes and G&Ws playing on that stage, or can characters like fox and pikachu be useable on it too?

Same goes for Bridge of Eldin where people like to ban it because of chaingrabs/matches taking more time due to players not knowing at which % they can KO their opponent.
I guess I can agree that D3/IC's probably is too good at the stage, even though Metaknight would have a hard time against Shiek(to not even say BAD MATCHUP?!) and D3 against Fox...

Another stage that for some reason seems to scream autoban is the snake stage, and I agree that it probably won´t work in singles, but it might have some potencial in teams, it brings strategys like when to destroy the wall and similar things.



I could list more stages that probably could fit better in teams then in singles but I more hope that you get my idéa and it maybe starts some discussions in SBR.

 

[Kain6th]

How often do they vote on this? 6 months like the Tier list?

 

[Mr.E]

I should hope Japes never finds itself banned, being just about the only competitive stage with a high ceiling makes it a necessary counterbalance to the lower-ceiling stages more commonly accepted (like Halberd). The only other stage with a high ceiling is Luigi's Mansion which, unfortunately, I expect to eventually be banned by all the whiners who cry about every stage that isn't Smashville or FD. (And FD really isn't even that neutral...)

Hey AZ, did you come up with that after C4 Galore? I heard Cake talking a lot about how good Norfair might really be for Diddy.

"The ruleset mentions Bowser's Claw, but not Ganon's Aerudo. Why is that?"

Actually, it's because Bowser's Claw relies solely on controller slot, while Ganon's Aerial Flame Choke does not.

I disagree with this reasoning. Yes, the game deciding victory based on controller port is stupidly arbitrary. You know what? The game deciding victory based on character size/weights for all the other potential suicide kills is equally stupid. For example, why should a suicide with Ganon be a "sudden death" for him against Ike but a loss against Jigglypuff?

The only reason I feel still justifies Bowser getting a special exception here is that his suicide kill is also the only one based on relative damage between the opponents. Bowser is not likely to be able to force a suicide kill and win unless he is already in the lead, else the opponent will have greater control over the Flying Slam and be able to direct Bowser to land back on-stage. If they have a stock lead, they can simply force the suicide and win that way as well. Other suicide kills work regardless of percent. (e.g. You jump in front of Ganondorf recovering with Flame Choke. You're dead no matter how big of a damage lead you had.) It's not broken but it's pretty lame.

"Because it's janky" is apparently an acceptable, quantifiable reason to ban a stage now.

I think Meta Knight is janky. I think Ice Climbers are janky. I think Dedede's chain grabs are janky. I expect to see all these banned in the future.

I guess, by looking at these criteria, I can see why Skyworld is banned. ... It obviously has no deadly/random hazards, it just emphasizes stagespiking and wallteching more than any other stage in the game.

I liken Skyworld to Luigi's Mansion, with a destroyable "cave of life" and emphasis on wallteching present. The difference here is that, unlike on Luigi's Mansion, you die if you don't tech. It's also flat-out ******** that somebody can attempt to recover to the ledge but end up destroying that floor tile with their recovery and falling to their death anyway. (Or, in the case of MK, he can Side-B into the bottom of the floor and magically pop through it...) It might be worth considering G&W's broken-*** DThrow here too. I'm not surprised it was given the axe but I am surprised the votes were unanimous.

 

[PK-ow!]

Norfair rocks: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230510

I'm not convinced the setup is broken.
Of your four winning matches you cite, one is Ice Climbers, who scarcely had much chance there to begin with. One is in a Loser's bracket. And the one against ZSS made Snakeee look like he either did not know or totally forgot how to play on Norfair.

But this is all small talk. The real matter is: You need to actually show the counterpick throwing a tournament into upset. It's not enough to point to some matches in which Diddy *****, I would have to see a tournament visit in which one has decided to CP to Norfair w/ Diddy throughout their matches, except for in a handful of cases - which you are allowed, such as your "not MK and Olimar" admission - and then gets as far as a money finish at least, but only being allowed losses to the people in attendance whole echelons better than him.

That is, in short, someone deciding beforehand to do this to **** a tournament, and then showing a proof of concept - of the overcentralizing that would emerge if others simply imitated and improved - by, in fact, ****** it.


Or maybe this is what you did. You giving a context for the videos was sort of incomplete.

oh, but this is all just giving you that the strat is 'simple'*, which on the face of it, to me at least, does not at all seem true.

*simple in the sense: that judgment calls and adaptation and yomi and that whole package are not demanded by it, or they are reduced in relevance by the power level of it.


And now to lead a man out of the darkness toward the light:

I disagree with this reasoning. Yes, the game deciding victory based on controller port is stupidly arbitrary. You know what? The game deciding victory based on character size/weights for all the other potential suicide kills is equally stupid. For example, why should a suicide with Ganon be a "sudden death" for him against Ike but a loss against Jigglypuff?

The only reason I feel still justifies Bowser getting a special exception here is that his suicide kill is also the only one based on relative damage between the opponents. Bowser is not likely to be able to force a suicide kill and win unless he is already in the lead, else the opponent will have greater control over the Flying Slam and be able to direct Bowser to land back on-stage. If they have a stock lead, they can simply force the suicide and win that way as well. Other suicide kills work regardless of percent. (e.g. You jump in front of Ganondorf recovering with Flame Choke. You're dead no matter how big of a damage lead you had.) It's not broken but it's pretty lame.

No, it's about controller port. Controller port is a rock solid reason to step in and substitute for the game mechanics with a rule set, because a game mechanic that decides factors because and when you have to plug in the controllers is unfair.

Saying that Flame Choke behaves weirdly on Jigglypuff from Ike, while I'll agree with you, is not a statement that is allowed to go as far as one about a port mechanic. It's strange, but it is what happens when one player chooses Ganon and the other chooses Jigglypuff. They both know this will happen, and in that sense are on fair ground. It is consistent, it is fair, and it is how the game works.

You can't alter how the game works without a necessitating reason. Controller port favoritism is a necessitating reason. A discriminating behaviour of one character's move against between other characters is not.

 

[Mr.E]

And "that" is what happens when one player chooses controller port 1 and the other chooses controller port 4. They both know this will happen, and in that sense are on fair ground. It is consistent, it is fair, and it is how the game works.

The fact is we are choosing to ignore how the game rules a match in the case of a Bowsercide ending it but not for any other form of match-ending suicide kills. What makes the controller port method of deciding any worse than whatever other stupid measures the game uses in other cases? (I'm not even sure the other suicide kill methods have been analyzed extensively enough to determine the exact criteria for a win/loss/draw, other than knowing Ganondorf's always makes him tie or lose. Is anyone certain controller port doesn't sometimes also affect their outcomes?) Ganondorf gets especially shafted since his Side-B is a viable recovery move. Where other suicide methods must be done intentionally, a crafty opponent can jump in front of a Side-B recovery attempt to force Ganondorf to accidentally suicide... and make him lose.

All players know the potential result of a Bowsercide in advance, so that's not a good reason for the rule. We have a rule for deciding port selection in case of a dispute. Don't get Port 1? Too bad. Now you know you're going to lose if you Bowsercide to end the match, so just don't do it! Controller port favoritism, as you call it, is also a major player in Snake match-ups, yet we have no special rule that always allows Snake to have Port 4 against a non-Snake opponent so he isn't the one sent flying by explosions during a grab. Bowser is simply getting special treatment he doesn't deserve.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Hey AZ, did you come up with that after C4 Galore? I heard Cake talking a lot about how good Norfair might really be for Diddy.

I first started realizing it after I noticed that...well I didn't lose there. After beating Snakeee I began to suspect that all the thoughts of Diddy being bad there may be wrong. Since no one allows my favorite CP of PTAD anymore I had to look elsewhere, Norfair seems an unlikely favorite, I've been using it here and there ever since. C3 (not C4 Galore) was the first tournament I used it as my prime counterpick. I told Cake about it at Lucario is Pawsome (I think, maybe it was a later tournament). He ended up finding out roughly what I discovered: its a really good Diddy stage.

I'm not convinced the setup is broken.
Of your four winning matches you cite, one is Ice Climbers, who scarcely had much chance there to begin with. One is in a Loser's bracket. And the one against ZSS made Snakeee look like he either did not know or totally forgot how to play on Norfair.

But this is all small talk. The real matter is: You need to actually show the counterpick throwing a tournament into upset. It's not enough to point to some matches in which Diddy *****, I would have to see a tournament visit in which one has decided to CP to Norfair w/ Diddy throughout their matches, except for in a handful of cases - which you are allowed, such as your "not MK and Olimar" admission - and then gets as far as a money finish at least, but only being allowed losses to the people in attendance whole echelons better than him.

At the C3 tournament where I CP'd Norfair against Meep, I actually wanted to CP Norfair every single set I played. The problem though was that by the time it got to be late in the tournament, word had spread that I was CPing Norfair and everyone started to ban it against me (Candy and G-reg both banned it against me IIRC). Sigh. I ended up being 5-0 for the day on Norfair (including 1 match in doubles where I encouraged Forte to CP there because we would win, against his better instincts as well-it took some convincing). In the last 4 months I've only lost on Norfair once (a match I've shown) and I think my overall record there is something like 20-1 in this time frame. Also, at the C3 tournament, I had to beat Esoj to place in the money, for game 3 I told him we were going to Norfair. He switched to MK. Before we even played I knew I had already won.

 

[D1]

Even though its listed under optional rules, why was the prohibition of modded Wiis or pirated copies of Brawl even mentioned?

Just wondering not sparking up an argument or anything.

 

[The Sex Puma]

Ah yes, quite the serendipitous prestidigitation.

 

[Snakeee]

Good ruleset, but we need to figure out a consistent rule on stalling that works. I don't think grabbing the ledge for a while is necessarily stalling. The way I use that is mainly to throw my opponent off on how I'm going to recover from the ledge.

wait....actually looking at the stages and wtf o_O.
Pirate Ship, Distant Planet, and Luigis should not be on.
And Halberd should no way be neutral

EDIT : PS2 is a really gimmicky stage too, and I don't think it should be allowed

 

[infomon]

I've yet to ever see anybody play on PS2, lol.

Then there's no evidence that there's anything wrong with it.

Also I killed somebody with Kirby's up-b once. We both died and he got the win. It was judge as "It was not a sucidal move" so he got the win. I dont agree with this. We both died at the same time, and I did the move that killed us.

How do you know you both died "at the same time"; and that you didn't actually hit the killzone first?

Also, I'd really like to hear what the full reasons were for some stages; Norfair and Luigi's in particular.... C/B seems pretty extreme.

 

[SmashBro99]

Maybe you guys will do stages better next time, oh well.

 

[cgpr4life2]

Why isn't the kirbycide addressed. There was a dispute in the tournament I was in yesterday because I kirbycided with higher percentage. We both died at the same time and people argued that the suicider gets the win while others argued that lower % wins. In the end it was decided that I (suicider) got the win. However a universal rule for this should be applied.

 

[TP]

Maybe you guys will do stages better next time, oh well.

That's unhelpful. 5 stages got banned, banning like 10 at once would be extreme IMO.

Why isn't the kirbycide addressed. There was a dispute in the tournament I was in yesterday because I kirbycided with higher percentage. We both died at the same time and people argued that the suicider gets the win while others argued that lower % wins. In the end it was decided that I (suicider) got the win. However a universal rule for this should be applied.

You should always ask the TO about such scenarios BEFORE the match.

 

[cgpr4life2]

You should always ask the TO about such scenarios BEFORE the match.

I would have if I wasn't sure that I had seen the rule on the tournament page on AIB stating that the suicider gets the win. Yet, it was argued because the TO had that lower percentage wins on the tournament page here. A mistake on their part for having to different rules on two different sites making it really confusing on who should win.

 

[Dream Chaser]

In regards to Bowsers suicide ruling, Bowsers should have priority in controller slots to help reduce confusion (assuming that the victory from Boswer suicide is infact determined by controller slots).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

While I agree that the new ruleset is a lot better than the older one I'm still not convinced. The most important thing for a stage ruleset is consistency, something the new ruleset still lacks tbqh. There is no sense in banning Corneria if you allow the Pirate Ship for example. Votes like that are still somewhat based on opinons of individuals and make many decisions look like fake compromise. I don't think that a stage ruleset should work that way. Either ban all hazardous/gimmicky stages or none of them. But don't ban Corneria for its wall infinites when Pirate Ship has hazard that can kill you, deal heavy damage or at least make fighting hardly possible. It just doesn't make sense. That way many TOs will continue to use their own stage ruleset for their tournaments instead of the "official" one.

My suggestion would be to use two different stage rulesets for the TO to choose: A strict, conservative one with few stages ans only 1 stage ban and a more liberal one with many stages but 2 stage bans.


A would look like this:

Starter:
Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination

Counterpick:
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Pokémon Stadium 1
Frigate Orpheon
Delphino Plaza
Battleship Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Brinstar


B would look like this:

Starter:
Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshis Island (Brawl)
Pokémon Stadium 1

Counterpick:
Frigate Orpheon
Delphino Plaza
Battleship Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Brinstar
Pokémon Stadium 2
Pictochat
Rainbow Cruise
Distant Planet
some other stuff

That way you have two rulesets, both of which fulfil the most important factor for a ruleset: consistency. The TO can decide - based on the opinions of the entrants - which ruleset he will use for the tournament and there won't be complaints about single stages anymore.
That's what I think it should be like.

One thing I forgot to mention: PS1 is a lot better starter stage than Lylat Cruise is. It might have more gimmicks but it doesn't influence match-up's as much as Lylat Cruise does and it's also more likely to be picked as the starter stage than Lylat Cruisse, which always gets banned first anyways.

 

[Xyless]

Even though its listed under optional rules, why was the prohibition of modded Wiis or pirated copies of Brawl even mentioned?

Just wondering not sparking up an argument or anything.

Modded Wiis isn't uncommon in the Smash community, nor is pirated copies of Brawl (for texture hacks). However, I'm assuming you're asking what's wrong with them, and not "why are is it being mentioned?" (which I just answered).

The problem with modded Wiis is the fact that you don't know if it will affect the gameplay. This is far more true with the pirated copies of Brawl (which is for both gameplay and legal reasons), as a pirated copy of Brawl could have anything on it, which could change how the game works. And since there's no way of actually testing the disk, it's far easier to just use a legal copy of the game.

 

[Xyless]

One quick question about that, though. Does the modded Wii include the involvement of the infinite instant replay code? I would assume that would be up to the TO, right?

 

[TP]

There is no sense in banning Corneria if you allow the Pirate Ship for example. Votes like that are still somewhat based on opinons of individuals and make many decisions look like fake compromise.

This is inaccurate if you look at how the voting went. Corneria got 15 for ban and only 3 for counterpick, Pirate Ship got only 3 for ban and 15 for counterpick. They weren't even close to each other, according to nearly the entire SBR. I see no bias.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

Are the changes to the suggested rules v1.0 limited to stages only? Or is there any other difference?

 

[huafei]

Wow! I’ve never heard of this before and I think they’re awesome!

 

[Kinzer]

Something about D3's infinites, if that counts.

Otherwise I think anything outside stage selection has more or less remained the same.