BBR Recommended Rule List v2.0 & General Ruleset Discussion

[PK-ow!]

At the C3 tournament where I CP'd Norfair against Meep, I actually wanted to CP Norfair every single set I played. The problem though was that by the time it got to be late in the tournament, word had spread that I was CPing Norfair and everyone started to ban it against me (Candy and G-reg both banned it against me IIRC). Sigh. I ended up being 5-0 for the day on Norfair (including 1 match in doubles where I encouraged Forte to CP there because we would win, against his better instincts as well-it took some convincing). In the last 4 months I've only lost on Norfair once (a match I've shown) and I think my overall record there is something like 20-1 in this time frame. Also, at the C3 tournament, I had to beat Esoj to place in the money, for game 3 I told him we were going to Norfair. He switched to MK. Before we even played I knew I had already won.

Aha, you're right. I actually forgot about that, the CP ban.

. . .

This is actually in your favour. Here's what you could do. If people really are CPing Norfair preemptively against you - using their one CP - that does, if you're right, demonstrate that your actions were centralizing to some degree.

To prove that it is overcentralizing would be to exploit that people have used up their CP and do something else now that wouldn't work otherwise.

Off the top of my head, I dunno, going Falco on Jungle Japes? I'm not super good so I can't say, plus it was your argument anyway, so you figure something out.

EDIT: Actually, to put this down, for my record-keeping purposes: If you end up really putting people in a bind with your CP-exploiting strategy, making them cornered - flanked as it were - then you've shown... well, something you're doing is really good. However if people come to accept one of the doors as the better way out, end up mostly taking that, and do okay, then my skepticism wins out.

I'd say "Best of luck," except we don't want luck to be a factor, do we?

 

[Dream Chaser]

I'd say "Best of luck," except we don't want luck to be a factor, do we?

Luck is always a factor, even if its just that you were lucky for you that that the opponent made a mistake. There is always luck because you cannot control the opponent and, not knowing what they are doing or planning, you have to try to act, perhaps banking on them doing a certain thing.

On a side note, I take it that the SBR has no official stance on the DDD standing infinite issue.

 

[Waffle Can]

I liken Skyworld to Luigi's Mansion, with a destroyable "cave of life" and emphasis on wallteching present. The difference here is that, unlike on Luigi's Mansion, you die if you don't tech. It's also flat-out ******** that somebody can attempt to recover to the ledge but end up destroying that floor tile with their recovery and falling to their death anyway. (Or, in the case of MK, he can Side-B into the bottom of the floor and magically pop through it...) It might be worth considering G&W's broken-*** DThrow here too. I'm not surprised it was given the axe but I am surprised the votes were unanimous.

Good question. I'm wondering about the unanimous vote myself... if its any indication from those in my region- its because it seems just about everyone is biased against it and john's about it to no end.

And just a side note, if you space your recovery on Skyworld, pretty much any character can recover without destroying the platform in question. (Knowing exact distance of a recovery move/where the "sweet spot" would be. Akin to sweet spotting it in melee.)

 

[sasook]

"Counter/Banned
Distant Planet (moved from C)
Green Greens
Luigi's Mansion (moved from C)
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island (Pipes) (moved from C)
Norfair (moved from C)"

>.< dang it! Those are 2 of my favorite CPs!

"Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria (moved from C)
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone (moved from C)
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit (moved from C/B)
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Onett (moved from C/B)
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Skyworld (moved from C/B)
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware"

Darn.....that was another one.

"* Pirated copies of Brawl or modded Wii consoles will not be used for tournament matches."

Not even ones with the "no tripping" code? Or just standard music/texture hacks?

Green Hill Zone 0-17-3 >>> 0-3-19
Yoshi's Island (Pipes) 0-15-6 >>> 0-10-19
Norfair: 1-27-0 >>> 0-16-10

Can I just ask, what was the reasoning behind these? Or are you not allowed to reveal it?

Old vote tallies (stages that were not revoted on)
Battlefield: 47-0-1
Final Destination: 26-2-1
Smashville: 24-0-1

O_o

Who voted to have these banned?

 

[Kinzer]

No modifications that alter gameplay is what I think they're trying to get across...

However I don't think anybody is going to baw if you have no-tripping/infinite replay/texture/music hax.

 

[infomon]

However I don't think anybody is going to baw if you have no-tripping/infinite replay/texture/music hax.

Except me. as much as I hate tripping.... it affects decisions I make in-game, and can make some chaingrabs that are used against me less effective. Since I practice with tripping on, I expect to play with tripping on in tournaments.

The rest are cool tho. Infinite replays and music hax all day.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I prefer no texture hacks, personally.

 

[Kinzer]

Quiet Infzy you don't count, you're the worst Sonic player ever.

Trash talking aside: <3 and can you honestly say gameplay would be affected since it's a matter of luck that cause tripping?

If we had a situation where something as say like the conclusion of a grand finals set is ended by one opponent getting REALLY unlucky and tripping into something, I bet there would be something going on after. On One hand you can't deny that if it hadn't happened, you would've gotten something else, and I feel some justice should be done, but on the other hand I can't deny that luck is always a factor (even if you can't tell exactly how much of it you got to work with) and even though (it) would really suck/s if it happened to you there is nothing but you could do except make a more aerial-oriented plasytyle for next time around...

Eh but why do I give a d***? At least you can't trip SDRing!

 

[ANTi_]

Halberd for starter would be amazing.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'd like to point out, to the people complaining about Norfair dropping and to the comment about Halberd being a starter, this is what the SBR stage list looks like if you remove the ambiguous sections and group the stages by simple majority.

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl] (37-0-0)
Battlefield (47-0-1)
Smashville (24-0-1)
Final Destination (26-2-1)
Lylat Cruise (16-9-0)
Halberd (18-16-0)
Pokémon Stadium 1 (16-14-2)

Counter

Castle Siege (5-9-0)
Delfino Plaza (6-20-0)
Brinstar (1-20-0)
Frigate Orpheon (1-29-0)
Rainbow Cruise (0-30-1)
Jungle Japes (0-14-1)
Pirate Ship (0-15-3)
PictoChat (0-25-9)
Pokémon Stadium 2 (0-24-11)
Norfair (0-16-10)
Luigi's Mansion (0-11-8)
Distant Planet (0-15-11)

Banned

Green Greens (0-6-9)
Yoshi's Island [Melee] (0-10-19)
Port Town Aero Dive (0-12-23)
Hanenbow (0-5-16)
Mario Circuit (0-5-19)
Onett (0-3-14)
Corneria (0-3-15)
Big Blue (0-3-17)
75m (2-2-24)
Green Hill Zone (0-3-19)
New Pork City (2-1-20)
Rumble Falls (0-3-21)
Shadow Moses Island (1-1-20)
Summit (0-2-20)
Mario Bros. (2-0-22)
Flat Zone 2 (1-1-22)
Bridge of Eldin (0-2-25)
WarioWare Inc. (0-2-33)
Spear Pillar (1-0-31)
Skyworld (0-0-16)
Temple (0-0-16)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (0-0-19)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 (0-0-21)

If I were going to interpret their stage list as a rigid suggestion for a single list, this is what I would interpret it as (I know PS1 is actually 50/50 with those ban votes, but I can only interpret anyone wanting to ban PS1 as joke voting). While I personally would really love to pretend they made a typo and accidentally inverted the positions of Corneria and Pirate Ship, otherwise it seems like a pretty good compromise list between the people who want to ban everything and the people who want to allow everything. It has the desirable 7 stage striking and a set of counterpicks that isn't too radical and should require some real effort to abuse but gives players a lot to work with. If you worry about Norfair being there suddenly destroying your ability to pick it, it sounds like more a sign that your local TOs are running stage lists right of center, not that the SBR list itself is suggesting they ban Norfair. In my experience, it's because the people who favor such lists are more vocal about it. Complaining at them to cut it out would probably be the most productive thing. If you could convince them to go so far as left of center, the SBR list very quickly gives you Yoshi's Island (Melee) back even.

I can't deny that I have the fear of a "creep" effect wherein no one takes stages banned on this list seriously anymore while still pushing to ban more stages, resulting in lists 3.0, 4.0, and beyond just becoming more and more restrictive. It's why I really wish everyone could come together on a list like the one I posted above and just run with it; keeping going with the stage loss until we only have 8 stages or something like that would be pretty awful. At the least, some sort of guarantee that, if more stages are banned, equal numbers of stages will be unbanned would be nice. Like, if we really have to lose Luigi's Mansion, let's bring Port Town Aero Dive mainstream, that sort of thing.

 

[infomon]

can you honestly say gameplay would be affected since it's a matter of luck that cause tripping?

Yes. Chaingrabs that require a dash are guaranteed without tripping, and aren't guaranteed otherwise; so some character strats have developed entirely around this.... it's harder to do small-step chaingrabs in the circumstances where those are available as an alternative; and there are some chaingrabs / tech-chase traps that only work with a dash.. so the tripping balances those techs vs. others. I conscientiously base some of the way I play around knowing that I may randomly trip; I would dash-dance sporadically a lot more if it wasn't inherently risky. A sonic that constantly dash-dances can be reeeally frustrating btw.

Edit: <3

 

[JayBee]

the threat of tripping is always there, but seriously, you're gonna let tripping alter your whole game plan? you can't. i do a lot of dash dancing and movement based things, even though i know i may trip. but honestly, the number of times most people lost due to just tripping is very low. it has happened to me though...

 

[Chris is me]

Can someone explain to me how Pictochat provides enough character bias that it becomes Counterpick? It provides very, very little and has very even matchups for most characters. Even the occasional wall doesn't last more than a few seconds. The hazards aren't enough random / luck to ban it, so why counterpick?

 

[Mr.E]

PictoChat isn't a counterpick because it provides specific character advantages but because its transformations and hazards are somewhat more disruptive to normal play than the neutral stages.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Actually, it's because Bowser's Claw relies solely on controller slot, while Ganon's Aerial Flame Choke does not.

In the event of a dispute, controller ports will be selected by Rock-Paper-Scissors.

In team matches, the ports will be determined in a 1221 fashion; whoever wins the RPS will choose first, then the opposing team will get their ports, and then the teammate of the RPS winner will get the last port.

If a game ends with Bowser doing his suicide klaw and it ends in sudden death, the sudden death will be ignored and that game will count as a win for Bowser.

I'm not sure if I get this.

Okay, so the rules say that the controller ports will be determined by Rock-Paper-Scissors, and yet If a game ends with Bowser's klaw, Bowser wins?

Wouldn't that be just like saying, if two Links (or anyone else, for this matter) grab at the same time, the one who grabbed first should get the grab?

That's what it seems like to me.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Why isn't Green Greens, and Distant Planet Counter picks? The stage layout for those stages are great for CPs.

 

[Kinzer]

Probably that nobody likes the stages.

I don't feel like giving the full details, but I could see where some people could come from if they explained why both stages should be maybe a counter.

 

[bobson]

Why isn't Green Greens, and Distant Planet Counter picks? The stage layout for those stages are great for CPs.

Because no one likes them.
Any reasons beyond that are just fluff.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Green Greens is cool, but Dedede's down grab is the primary reason this stage is banned, along with a few others stages.

 

[bobson]

Green Greens is cool, but Dedede's down grab is the primary reason this stage is banned, along with a few others stages.

Break the blocks. Problem solved.

 

[Solid Jake]

I have to say, im surprised at luigi not being banned, and halberd as a starter

 

[darkNES386]

In regards to player stage bans:

When the striking system is used... and a player wants to ban a neutral... which order do these occur in? Wouldn't a requested ban neutral count as the first stage that player strikes?

I've had to deal with final destination being banned.

 

[Hylian]

In regards to player stage bans:

When the striking system is used... and a player wants to ban a neutral... which order do these occur in? Wouldn't a requested ban neutral count as the first stage that player strikes?

I've had to deal with final destination being banned.

You strike before you ban. That way even if a neutral is banned it won't make you use an even number of stages in the stage striking process.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

My disagreements with the stage list have been made a hundred times over.

Well, we're making progress. Just Japes and Pirate Ship left to go, though I'd like to see Pictochat eat the dust as well.

I've yet to ever see anybody play on PS2, lol.

I've counterpicked PS2 a couple times. There was one tournament where I played as Lucario and teamed with a Pokemon Trainer and we counterpicked PS2 for lols...

Are you serious? I've never seen ANYONE die from getting stuck on an Arwing, and I play with horrible, horrible players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8PMZLgR0OI <-- 3:12

Modded Wiis isn't uncommon in the Smash community, nor is pirated copies of Brawl (for texture hacks). However, I'm assuming you're asking what's wrong with them, and not "why are is it being mentioned?" (which I just answered).

The problem with modded Wiis is the fact that you don't know if it will affect the gameplay. This is far more true with the pirated copies of Brawl (which is for both gameplay and legal reasons), as a pirated copy of Brawl could have anything on it, which could change how the game works. And since there's no way of actually testing the disk, it's far easier to just use a legal copy of the game.

Not to mention a scenario I've thought of when modded wiis first started to become commonplace. What if someone mods a character that isn't common to be just slightly better? Enough to give a significant advantage but not enough to be noticeable. Like if someone changed the hitstun on a couple of Mario's attacks just enough to give him combos that he didn't have before, or the knockback on a few moves just enough to kill 10% sooner than they otherwise would have... Better to just use a legal copy of the game with a direct boot.

Can someone explain to me how Pictochat provides enough character bias that it becomes Counterpick? It provides very, very little and has very even matchups for most characters. Even the occasional wall doesn't last more than a few seconds. The hazards aren't enough random / luck to ban it, so why counterpick?

A few of the hazards have walls, which allow for wall combos while they're up. The whale, with a character like Olimar, Toon Link, or Pit in the center of it allows said character to projectile camp for a short time while the opponent can't reach him at all until the whale disappears. (when it spawns, if you're not in the center of it, you can't reach the center. Projectiles can go out, but not go in) And a few of the hazards deal enough damage that the stage shouldn't be neutral. It's a good counterpick though.

Why isn't Green Greens, and Distant Planet Counter picks? The stage layout for those stages are great for CPs.

They are C/B, which means that they are sometimes counterpicks, up to the host's discretion. You are better off asking a tournament host why he plans to ban it.

In regards to player stage bans:

When the striking system is used... and a player wants to ban a neutral... which order do these occur in? Wouldn't a requested ban neutral count as the first stage that player strikes?

I've had to deal with final destination being banned.

LOL, someone else bans FD besides me?

Anyway, if they ban FD (or another starter) before going through the stage strike process, remind them of the rules at that tournament. If all else fails, just use that as their first strike. They're supposed to strike beforehand, but not all tournaments use a strike system for the first match, and players familiar with tournaments that use the random starter system that most Melee players are familiar with would probably announce their ban first.

 

[KevinM]

I still think Rainbow Cruise could have a strong argument to be neutral.

Edit: Ehh I guess not so much in brawl carry on.

 

[shanus]

Not to mention a scenario I've thought of when modded wiis first started to become commonplace. What if someone mods a character that isn't common to be just slightly better? Enough to give a significant advantage but not enough to be noticeable. Like if someone changed the hitstun on a couple of Mario's attacks just enough to give him combos that he didn't have before, or the knockback on a few moves just enough to kill 10% sooner than they otherwise would have... Better to just use a legal copy of the game with a direct boot.

Players cannot modify the individual hitstun of a move. Its global or bust. However, the hitstun permove can be modified only through significant changes by manipulating the individual knockback of a specific move. To do this, the player would need direct access to in game data which can only be obtained by hackers with a USB gecko, and they would need to learn how to manipulate a few tricksy codes to get this to work. Overall, the likelihood of this is very slim, and the easy fix is for the TO to walk around and load up codes with their SD card and then walk away. Players can then insert their SD card with their own textures after the game is loaded and all is honky dory.

Hope this helps.

 

[AlKrauser]

HaHa! my thread did have an effect! Corneria finally got banned!

 

[Wolfenpilot687]

This is bull****. All the stages that make you show skill in the game are banned. The ones where characters have a slight advantage are in. They left this to "pro" gamers to choose, eh? Pretty obvious. ¬_¬

 

[Kinzer]

^^

What is that I don't even.

 

[Iwan]

A lot of people have a problem with Green Greens for some reason, and honestly, it's mostly the east coast :/; the West coast has it in tournament play all the time in NorCal, OR, and WA (not every time, but often).

It's a good counter pick stage for a lot of characters, and unless you're....not too bright -_-.....you aren't going to get KO'd by bomb blocks or "under the stage" gimps. Those things only happen to the players who aren't accustomed with the stage.

As for japes, I have no idea why anyone thinks this stage is warranted for ban (again, on the east coast). Nothing random happens in this stage, as the klap trap (klappy )....comes every 10 seconds.

It's not random, but on a 10 second timer. So many people don't know that lol. As for the river, you can survive a fall even on the left side of the stage, as long as you time your jump correctly.

Also a really good counter pick stage.

 

[A1lion835]

I'm mostly alright with this, but a few things...

1. Why do some stages have more voters than others?

2.

Voting Changes:
...
Halberd: 18-16-0 >>> 18-16-0

O_o

3. Why put Distant Planet as a cp? The left (walk-off) side is instadeath if D3/IC's grabs you, the stage generates items, there's 2 KO hazards...

4. Why not ban weegee's? It's basically Cave of Immortality all over again, some chars have infinites, and busting the stage down only lasts for...a small amount of time.

5. I forgot Onett existed until I looked at this O_o

6. YI(Pipes) should be banned...chaingrabber's paradise AGAIN, and the short blastzone to the left doesn't exactly help make it less banworthy.

No sarcasm, these are just things I was wondering about, no matter how I made it sound. I'm pretty sleepy right now...even though it's not even 1 yet...johnjohnjohn.

 

[Flayl]

I'm mostly alright with this, but a few things...
3. Why put Distant Planet as a cp? The left (walk-off) side is instadeath if D3/IC's grabs you, the stage generates items, there's 2 KO hazards...t

There's 1 KO hazard and you have to be pretty stupid to get into any of the situations you mentioned. Show me a match with people who aren't complete newbies that actually fall into the bulborb's mouth. Also periodic rain stops people from camping the left side of the stage.

edit: Forgot to mention the items have no knockback and are fixed spawns.

 

[bobson]

3. Why put Distant Planet as a cp? The left (walk-off) side is instadeath if D3/IC's grabs you,

Don't stand on the left and taunt while they grab you.

the stage generates items,

OH NO, ITEMS!!

there's 2 KO hazards...

There's one, and if you get hit by it, you are an idiot.

6. YI(Pipes) should be banned...chaingrabber's paradise AGAIN,

Break blocks, stand on left.

and the short blastzone to the left doesn't exactly help make it less banworthy.

It doesn't help make it any more banworthy, either.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

6. YI(Pipes) should be banned...chaingrabber's paradise AGAIN, and the short blastzone to the left doesn't exactly help make it less banworthy.

MK's worst overall stage, no one will cares about CGs lolol...

 

[Airborne]

i have one question about the koopa claw suicide rule with bowser:
would this rule also include ganoncides?
i never have seen any input about how that would turn out. =\

 

[Solid Jake]

i have one question about the koopa claw suicide rule with bowser:
would this rule also include ganoncides?
i never have seen any input about how that would turn out. =\

That would make sense to me, yeah.

 

[thataintflaco1338]

Jake, your sig is really ****ing nuts. Sorry.

In otherwords, this list is much much better

 

[PathToEternity]

I'd like to address the issue of Bowserciding.

All of the other suicides the game decides on its own, regardless of port. None of them ever go to Sudden Death (that I see). If any of the others could go to sudden death, I could understand removing the rule. If the Bowsercide randomly awarded wins or losses to Bowser or his opponent, then the rule wouldn't even exist. The issue is that the game oddly assigns the winner based on controller port. In each of the other suicides, the one who initiates the suicide can lose the match, but not with Bowser.

I would not mind seeing Ganonciding added to the rule, because it cannot be escaped from. I do not think Kirby or DeDeDe should be added, because their suicides can be escaped from (and often are). If this happens under/offscreen, but above the blast zone, then it skews results; a player who can escape and recover should be awarded a win for doing so. Bowser and Ganon cannot be escaped.

Finally - and this needs a little research - I recall reading a thread a few months ago stating that the Japanese disk always awards the Bowsercide win to Bowser, regardless of controller port, but for some reason it does not on the American disk. If this is true, then it further strengthens this rule. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

 

[TP]

All of the other suicides the game decides on its own, regardless of port. None of them ever go to Sudden Death (that I see).

A ganoncide does go to sudden death based on controller port... usually. In special cases (against certain chars or from very high up) Ganon outright loses.

 

[PathToEternity]

I stand corrected then, and would advocate adding him to the Bowser rule.

But still not Kirby or DeDeDe.