Brawl and Tekken4: A Small Read

[MarKO X]

Smashville says hi.

regardless, its still a scrub cry. basically, every rule made directly because of MK is saying, "we know he's bannable, but we want to keep him in the game."

 

[Eddie G]

good point about MK, I don't understand pro-ban people who won't play MK out of pride or whatever. if you really wanted him banned you'd be helping his tournament placings as much as possible and annoying as many people with him as possible.

I mean he's never going to be nationally banned anyway but you should do anything you can to help your argument

Why should we even have to? He's already been dominating tournament placements with the players who already use him. Like Kewkky said, anti-ban is just clinging to their newfound crutch in the form of ADHD since their old crutch is (ironically) using MK more often now. Pound 4's results were Metaknight INFESTED, but suddenly people want to see that as null and void just because ADHD is a great player and managed to take first.

Somehow, in their minds, that is supposed to magically excuse the abundance of MKs in the rest of the top 10 results, when a ridiculous amount of MKs placing like that is the very same request for proof we've seen anti-ban make over and over and over again.

How the **** does that even make sense?

 

[WindMajor]

We can't even put a rule to limit all of MK's gay tactics. The only thing that we can do is add some sort of ledge grab limit (which we already have, and wasn't really enforced in P4), which sucks because it has to apply to all characters. There are some characters whose best ledge options are to hang on and wait for a decent opportunity, which means that the rule in a sense would hurt more than it would help. All it would do is remove obvious planking.

It doesn't really matter though because MK can air camp, and completely avoid the ledge. I can't think of an enforceable rule that could stop air camping.

 

[solecalibur]

We can't even put a rule to all of MK's gay tactics. The only thing that we can do is add some sort of ledge grab limit, but that applies to all characters. It sucks though, because there are some characters whose best ledge options are to hang on and wait for a decent opportunity.

MK on the other hand, can air camp, and completely avoid the ledge. The rule would limit other characters more than MK. I can't think of an enforceable rule that could stop air camping.

We did get rid of metaknight's inf cape and even if we could get rid of a move (IE nado) they are still gonna QQ about it yet ally gets pretty far in pound 4 without using nado

 

[Karcist]

Metaknight has made me want to quit going to tournaments a few times now.

 

[Kewkky]

So many posts in a single day of me posting the thread... I like the activity! It's MUCH more organized and at a higher intelligence level overall than all the other "MK blahblahblah" threads I've read before, they've all been lacking in actual info because their OPs would abandon the thread and leave everyone to talk to each other and go off-topic with nothing to talk about...

I've seen lots of people complain about how gay MK is, yet I've not seen anything done to lower his gayness. All I see are rules with holes here and there, and even TOs who don't enforce the stalling/ledgegrab rules when an MK does what he does best. I'm not exaggerating when I say that a couple of top MKs in Pound4's tourney weren't even all that "wow", and I was there to see it in person instead of through some videos. I have no idea how the thought of an MK gaining an advantage, then running away the entire match and keeping his advantage with an overpowered moveset and the ability to "stall without breaking any rules" is enjoyable at all. Play to win indeed, but the money gained in Brawl's slowly diminishing lifespan is less than the money players would gain from a Brawl with a longer lifespan.

It's completely stupid how such an overpowered character in comparison to the others is still allowed to run rampant through tourneys. TOs will always follow the SBR-B's recommendations, and they will practically never come up with solutions of their own. Xyro ran anti-MK tourneys for a while, and his attendance boosted according to his tourney results. It's true that in other locations anti-MK tourneys had less people, but it COULD be argued that those players also follow the SBR-B's recommendations, thus they don't go anywhere that might 'interfere with their knowledge of the current metagame'. Why play in a tourney without MK and get used to no MKs, when in bigger OoS tourneys there will be MK's? "We won't learn the MU if we spend all our time playing MK-banned tourneys"... I remember that sentence repeated quite a lot before.

How much longer are we supposed to wait before some serious consideration is given to the issue regarding MK? He's not broken, but he's such a good character that he's the overall best option for any situation. Every battle is an uphill battle against MK making him the perfect primary main for players, as well as the perfect secondary for players with an affinity to lower tiers. Brawl isn't a combo-oriented game, so beating MK is even harder than beating top tiers in other games... MK can do a hit-and-run strategy with nothing worse than a ~30% string at low %s, and high survival rate at high %s... He is also the best at gimping with his many jumps and semi-spike, along with his dreaded shuttle loop. He can punish characters in ways that no one else can punish him, making him the best option for beating just about everyone. Why learn a different character, if MK has the best matchup spread? Hell, the matchups tip even MORE in his favor thanks to the gay tactics implemented in his game, which only got WORSE since the last anti-ban debates were around, whom SPECIFICALLY told the pro-banners to 'hold their horses', that MK's hype will die soon and that his metagame had climaxed back then. I have no idea how his getting 'worse for everyone' is anywhere near 'climaxed'.

I know that there are some legit MK players who love the character for who he is and would never play gay... But is disappointing these players and forcing them to switch mains, worse than forcing the rest of the community to switch to a character that does well against MK due to MK being the center of the current metagame? I mean, Diddy and Snake are the only consistent 'viable' character right now, 2 characters that are arguably even against MK (Snake losing his 'even' MU more and more, the gayer MK gets), should we either decide if we want to main MK, or the two people who have an even-yet-slightly-disadvantaged MU against him? I see no reason why people should run the risk using Snake/Diddy when they could have the slight advantage... Which is what I've seen a couple of Snake mains do: change mains to MK, or learn how to use MK.


Either learn how to use MK, or get out of the tourney/learn how to lose... That's a statement that's been said a couple of times. Is this really how you guys want to talk to the people who are keeping Brawl alive? Do you people actually want to see the game literally infested by MKs? Never in Melee's lifespan has this problem ever surfaced to the point where a character takes 2/3 of the top spots in a national tourney... Not even other countries' metagames can do anything about it.

And yet we're here waiting on some action that will either come late, or never come... Why wait until our player-base dwindles before taking action, don't know. By that time, the players who left the game went back to Melee and won't wqant to return to Brawl, I see no victory there.

 

[Karcist]

good point about MK, I don't understand pro-ban people who won't play MK out of pride or whatever. if you really wanted him banned you'd be helping his tournament placings as much as possible and annoying as many people with him as possible.

I mean he's never going to be nationally banned anyway but you should do anything you can to help your argument

Wrong, maybe a lot of people don't find metaknight fun to play with, I know I don't.

 

[DFat2]

Seriously, 70% of the PR players that went to Pound 4 for Brawl decided not to play it anymore because it wasn't worth it. Ling Ling and Excel Zero both decided not to play brawl because no matter how badly the practiced the match up, Tornado + Shuttle Loop + DSmash = Too much work for no reward.

The hype every one had for Apex was gone because, frankly, the didn't feel like paying $600.00 + ??? to get beat by MK players. Zero and Ling got planked in teams as well and when the told a judge (not sure who) that they (the other team) had 105 ledge grabs, he told them that it didn't apply for teams.

Ling: "That was a stupid call because, if planking was allowed or there wasn't a limit for ledge grabs, any one could just pick two MK's and plank until the time ran out."

He's not gonna play Brawl anymore (ling); he's going to play full melee and if he does play brawl again, he said he was going to main DiddyK.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

You'd definitely get a bunch of new players going to tournaments with MK banned (and if they were advertised well too!). I don't even want to bother going to a tournament because of that bat thing.

The purpose of a multi-character fighting game is to use different characters to fight each other. Using the same one over and over would get stale quick, no?

 

[WindMajor]

Seriously, 70% of the PR players that went to Pound 4 for Brawl decided not to play it anymore because it wasn't worth it. Ling Ling and Excel Zero both decided not to play brawl because no matter how badly the practiced the match up, Tornado + Shuttle Loop + DSmash = Too much work for no reward.

The hype every one had for Apex was gone because, frankly, the didn't feel like paying $600.00 + ??? to get beat by MK players. Zero and Ling got planked in teams as well and when the told a judge (not sure who) that they (the other team) had 105 ledge grabs, he told them that it didn't apply for teams.

Ling: "That was a stupid call because, if planking was allowed or there wasn't a limit for ledge grabs, any one could just pick two MK's and plank until the time ran out."

He's not gonna play Brawl anymore (ling); he's going to play full melee and if he does play brawl again, he said he was going to main DiddyK.

Oh well that's just lovely. There goes my practice for Apex.......

 

[ETWIST51294]

Who does Ling ling play in Melee?

 

[xMPDx]

Seriously, 70% of the PR players that went to Pound 4 for Brawl decided not to play it anymore because it wasn't worth it. Ling Ling and Excel Zero both decided not to play brawl because no matter how badly the practiced the match up, Tornado + Shuttle Loop + DSmash = Too much work for no reward.

The hype every one had for Apex was gone because, frankly, the didn't feel like paying $600.00 + ??? to get beat by MK players. Zero and Ling got planked in teams as well and when the told a judge (not sure who) that they (the other team) had 105 ledge grabs, he told them that it didn't apply for teams.

Ling: "That was a stupid call because, if planking was allowed or there wasn't a limit for ledge grabs, any one could just pick two MK's and plank until the time ran out."

He's not gonna play Brawl anymore (ling); he's going to play full melee and if he does play brawl again, he said he was going to main DiddyK.

well, 70% of us dicided to quit brawl, but believe me 100% of us decided to play Melee. I cant say i dint have fun on P4 cause i did. However i dont mind if MK dont get banned, cause i believe he can be beat (without using any gay Tactics, like planking). But, while we let MK stay, we wont let any other characters develop, and that will cause the game to die.

Players are saying, "we play to win" I dont use MK and i play to win, but more importantly to have fun. Every melee player play's to win, but do they get pissed off because they lost to a character that does not have a bad match up?

I read on another thread M2K saying that DD kong destroys MK!? thats some BS and john's. You yourself once said, olimar destroys MK. Yeah i can see your mind games son.

At this pace, brawl wont last.

If MK gets bann, most MK mainers will quit or will not get Top placing at a tournament because they cant accept to play with another character that is not MK.

Kewkky great Thread

 

[link2702]

its pretty obvious that SBR are not about to ban him, becaause to them "unless we get that 2/3 of the vote to ban him we nawt gonna do it, even if the majority in fact does want him banned, instead we'll just make a bunch of rules to *try* to keep him in check that honestly can't be enforced very well" so, unless the TO's start taking it into their own hands to ban him in their tournies to see how things differ, brawl will die off due to overcentralization on him.


however this is honestly unlikely to happen since most TO's are scared to try anything other then the "SBR ABSOLUTE STANDARD"

besides, even if that 2/3 of the community finally agreed that he needed to be banned, the last vote, the SBR basicly said "this is the final verdict, he either stays by our rules, or goes"

meh....i pretty much have dropped outta brawls tourny scene myself anyway, i'ma seriously thinking about getting into melee's myself now.

 

[RATED]

I think that the SBR should check the situation another time. MK's metagame has become about planking and all that stuff. it makes the to die or the metagame to get "stop".

 

[hotgarbage]

Seriously, 70% of the PR players that went to Pound 4 for Brawl decided not to play it anymore because it wasn't worth it. Ling Ling and Excel Zero both decided not to play brawl because no matter how badly the practiced the match up, Tornado + Shuttle Loop + DSmash = Too much work for no reward.

The hype every one had for Apex was gone because, frankly, the didn't feel like paying $600.00 + ??? to get beat by MK players. Zero and Ling got planked in teams as well and when the told a judge (not sure who) that they (the other team) had 105 ledge grabs, he told them that it didn't apply for teams.

Ling: "That was a stupid call because, if planking was allowed or there wasn't a limit for ledge grabs, any one could just pick two MK's and plank until the time ran out."

He's not gonna play Brawl anymore (ling); he's going to play full melee and if he does play brawl again, he said he was going to main DiddyK.

Oh wow, that's....

 

[RATED]

Oh wow, that's....

yeah is , and that will happen to other places if MK continues without ban.

I am a Puerto Rican player too.

it will happen steady but surely.

 

[Kasht]

OK, so here is my take on the situation... The reason I compared Brawl with Tekken 4 is not because of how "broken" is Jin Kazama and how similar this character is to Meta Knight, because they are NOT!

I played Tekken 4 a lot and I used Julia Chang, which has been my character since forever. I could beat Jins all the time, but I was a top player then. The problem is the tournament scene, and this is where the comparison with Brawl comes into play.

I went to tournaments where 80% of the players either mained Jin Kazama, or used him as secondary once they lost the first match. Therefore, the game became really boring, and to the people who were around 2003 and 2004 know what I'm talking about. Who wanted to go to tournaments when they had no chance of winning due to Jin Kazama? Why would I use X character when the matchup is just so bad that any Jin Kazama user, even scrubby players, can beat me? What excitement is there in watching an EVO finals where out of the TOP 8, 6 players use Jin Kazama?

Pound 4 reminded me of those times... So many scrubby Meta Knights beating top players (with their mains) like -hilt- and his Olimar! Hilt's 2nd round pools had ALL MKs, so he did not make it out. However, this guy's Olimar is INSANE, one of the best!

In a nutshell, having MK around basically ruins any possibility for players using other characters and wanting to be the best with them. When you have a matchup that is almost impossible against scrubs mashing with MK, c'mon, who wants to keep entering tournaments?

The ratio of MKs in Brawl tournaments is only going to increase from now on, and the amount of Brawl players entering tournaments will keep decreasing. Unless there are some drastic changes to the game rules (yes, I'm still pissed off about Excel+Ling's team taking a loss even though the other team was stalling/planking) that make it fun and enjoyable to play at a competitive level, this is inevitable. It is very sad, but it's the truth. More people will slowly transition to Melee, and Brawl will experience a slow death until a newer, better Smash game comes out.

Kasht

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So many posts in a single day of me posting the thread... I like the activity! It's MUCH more organized and at a higher intelligence level overall than all the other "MK blahblahblah" threads I've read before, they've all been lacking in actual info because their OPs would abandon the thread and leave everyone to talk to each other and go off-topic with nothing to talk about...

I've seen lots of people complain about how gay MK is, yet I've not seen anything done to lower his gayness. All I see are rules with holes here and there, and even TOs who don't enforce the stalling/ledgegrab rules when an MK does what he does best. I'm not exaggerating when I say that a couple of top MKs in Pound4's tourney weren't even all that "wow", and I was there to see it in person instead of through some videos. I have no idea how the thought of an MK gaining an advantage, then running away the entire match and keeping his advantage with an overpowered moveset and the ability to "stall without breaking any rules" is enjoyable at all. Play to win indeed, but the money gained in Brawl's slowly diminishing lifespan is less than the money players would gain from a Brawl with a longer lifespan.

It's completely stupid how such an overpowered character in comparison to the others is still allowed to run rampant through tourneys. TOs will always follow the SBR-B's recommendations, and they will practically never come up with solutions of their own. Xyro ran anti-MK tourneys for a while, and his attendance boosted according to his tourney results. It's true that in other locations anti-MK tourneys had less people, but it COULD be argued that those players also follow the SBR-B's recommendations, thus they don't go anywhere that might 'interfere with their knowledge of the current metagame'. Why play in a tourney without MK and get used to no MKs, when in bigger OoS tourneys there will be MK's? "We won't learn the MU if we spend all our time playing MK-banned tourneys"... I remember that sentence repeated quite a lot before.

How much longer are we supposed to wait before some serious consideration is given to the issue regarding MK? He's not broken, but he's such a good character that he's the overall best option for any situation. Every battle is an uphill battle against MK making him the perfect primary main for players, as well as the perfect secondary for players with an affinity to lower tiers. Brawl isn't a combo-oriented game, so beating MK is even harder than beating top tiers in other games... MK can do a hit-and-run strategy with nothing worse than a ~30% string at low %s, and high survival rate at high %s... He is also the best at gimping with his many jumps and semi-spike, along with his dreaded shuttle loop. He can punish characters in ways that no one else can punish him, making him the best option for beating just about everyone. Why learn a different character, if MK has the best matchup spread? Hell, the matchups tip even MORE in his favor thanks to the gay tactics implemented in his game, which only got WORSE since the last anti-ban debates were around, whom SPECIFICALLY told the pro-banners to 'hold their horses', that MK's hype will die soon and that his metagame had climaxed back then. I have no idea how his getting 'worse for everyone' is anywhere near 'climaxed'.

I know that there are some legit MK players who love the character for who he is and would never play gay... But is disappointing these players and forcing them to switch mains, worse than forcing the rest of the community to switch to a character that does well against MK due to MK being the center of the current metagame? I mean, Diddy and Snake are the only consistent 'viable' character right now, 2 characters that are arguably even against MK (Snake losing his 'even' MU more and more, the gayer MK gets), should we either decide if we want to main MK, or the two people who have an even-yet-slightly-disadvantaged MU against him? I see no reason why people should run the risk using Snake/Diddy when they could have the slight advantage... Which is what I've seen a couple of Snake mains do: change mains to MK, or learn how to use MK.


Either learn how to use MK, or get out of the tourney/learn how to lose... That's a statement that's been said a couple of times. Is this really how you guys want to talk to the people who are keeping Brawl alive? Do you people actually want to see the game literally infested by MKs? Never in Melee's lifespan has this problem ever surfaced to the point where a character takes 2/3 of the top spots in a national tourney... Not even other countries' metagames can do anything about it.

And yet we're here waiting on some action that will either come late, or never come... Why wait until our player-base dwindles before taking action, don't know. By that time, the players who left the game went back to Melee and won't wqant to return to Brawl, I see no victory there.

Good ****, Kewkky.

I haven't touched vBrawl since I figured out how to get Brawl+ working, but I agree-MK sucks, ban him.

I have had the personal luck to play with almost exclusively casual scrubs. You know, the group which ragequits if you plank/aircamp them for 8 minutes. We use the SBR rules, but we have an honor agreement-you don't play gay. But it doesn't matter if you play gay or not; MK is obviously dominant on that level too.

I recall one problem being that MK is just so **** easy to pick up and **** with. Of course everyone is going MK, why spend 5 weeks learning bthrow CGs with ICs when you can spend 5 hours dair camping ICs instead?

Also, fun fact: I have never heard an argument from anti-ban which isn't appealing to the status quo, ad hominem (L2P), or a false comparison.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Instead of referencing Pound4 or other major tournaments, can pro-ban pull other tourney results from mid-attendance tourneys such as regionals and use them to find trends in the past?

I'm hearing the same arguments from a year and a half ago; just replace Pound4 with Genesis, or Apex, or WHOBO, or CoT4, and it's essentially the same. People only focus on the major tournaments and say, "MK is dominating the top spots, the metagame is centered around him," but don't reference the multiple other regionals or fairly large tournaments where the metagame is.

The only trends you'll be finding with national tournaments is that top players place in the top. Occasionally, some players get notably better or stop playing as much and get a little worse, but you'll consistently find top players in the top spots.

I don't have much of an opinion since I've been gone for half a year and don't know what tournament placings and attendance was like from August-January. However, I still see faulty arguments and the same argument pro-ban had since 2008, saying that Meta Knight will eventually dominate the metagame despite the lack of change I've seen in tournament placings since then. I'm not going to debate if it ends up in me copy-pasting myself.

Honest question: can pro-ban look at regionals and other decent sized tournaments (50-100+) and point out trends from the past that show that Brawl has shifted more towards MKs favor over time rather than vague descriptions and wordy, loose arguments? Thanks.

 

[xDD-Master]

One thing:
Think of how many people would REALLY quit Brawl if he would be Brawl.
Then think of all the people who already quit Brawl because of MK...

Another thing:
MK isn't broken enough to be banned, but he has already influenced the community to much as that we can have him still allowed. See above for example. See all those MK banned discussions/threads. Isnt this already enough to show how much MK splits the community into to sides? Do we really want a splitted community? Do we really want to get gayed by MKs anymore in tourneys just because it isnt unbeatable but still not fun to play? Do we want all those stress with discussing about MK, if we could have instead of that some nice days playing Brawl?

I love Metaknight, from playing the Kirby games when I was younger, Kirby's adventure really made me a fan boy of the series. I don't play him because he is the best... that's just a bonus. lol.

Banning MK wouldnt forbid you to play him anyway, friendlies, MMs if other person agrees, even tournaments who still dont ban him, as there are already MK-banned tournament nowadays... he would just be banned in the officiell SWF brawl rulesets... because most people want a tournament to be like that rules.

 

[AvaricePanda]

One thing:
Think of how many people would REALLY quit Brawl if he would be Brawl.
Then think of all the people who already quit Brawl because of MK...

Is it some hypothetical number you can know for certain but just assume?

Another thing:
MK isn't broken enough to be banned,

Hmm.

MK isn't broken enough to be banned,

So why ban him?

He isn't broken enough to be banned, you said it yourself. You shouldn't cater to the people who dislike MK if he isn't broken enough to be banned.

It's that simple.

but he has already influenced the community to much as that we can have him still allowed. See above for example. See all those MK banned discussions/threads. Isnt this already enough to show how much MK splits the community into to sides?

Sure, online. In-person tournaments don't break into fights because someone uses or counterpicks MK. MK doesn't split the community at all. It's brought up every time a national tournament happens, there's some poll, and a few days later everybody forgets about it and doesn't bring it up until the next national.

Do we really want a splitted community?

See above.

Do we really want to get gayed by MKs anymore in tourneys just because it isnt unbeatable but still not fun to play?

This is your opinion on what is fun and what is not.

This is a competitive fighting game.
You play to win.
If you are not playing to win, you have no business playing a fighting game competitively and complaining that it is not fun.

If you agree that a character is not broken enough to be banned, but ultimately say he should be banned because the game is more fun without him, then you're contradicting yourself. It's irrelevant that the game is more fun because that's not only an opinion, but that's not the goal of competitive fighting game players. The goal is to win, and if it's attainable with something not broken then it's perfectly legitimate.

Do we want all those stress with discussing about MK, if we could have instead of that some nice days playing Brawl?

An opinion. And read above.

Again, please bring something new to the table rather than re-posting what's been said for a year and a half.

 

[Kasht]

The issue is not about Meta Knight been broken enough or not...

The main issue is that less and less people are playing the game due to the Meta Knight gayness. More people are getting upset of losing to only Meta Knights in tournaments, which within the community, makes it seem an impossible matchup. Only a select group of TOP players, beat the semi-decent Meta Knights at Pound 4. Note how I said "semi-decent", because I didn't see Meta Knights like Mew2King's at the tournament, yet they were ****** and destroying all the TOP players who stayed faithful to their non-MK mains.

People need to understand that the number of TOP players is small and, although slowly growing, basically means that the people that attend tournaments are slightly above average players. If these people stop going to tournaments due to all the gay crap that Meta Knight has to offer, the game will eventually die, and then we will have only Melee, which is not a bad thing, Melee is a GREAT game!!!

Brawl is living a similar life as Tekken 4 did, having a character not broken enough to ban, but overpowered enough to provide an easy solution for TOP players and the average/casual player to WIN matches in tournaments. Only time will tell, and when that happens, don't forget that I SAID IT FIRST!

Kasht

 

[CRASHiC]

So why ban him?

He isn't broken enough to be banned, you said it yourself. You shouldn't cater to the people who dislike MK if he isn't broken enough to be banned.

It's that simple.

Then sir, don't ban items either. Items aren't broken, but they create an unhealthy atmosphere considered not fit for tournament play.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Then sir, don't ban items either. Items aren't broken, but they create an unhealthy atmosphere considered not fit for tournament play.

Broken enough to be banned.

Items are broken in the sense that they provide a non-competitive atmosphere because of the randomness of what the item is and where the item spawns. It makes the game less competitive and does nothing to the viability of individual characters; it just makes the game arbitrarily shift to a certain player's advantage.

This is irrelevant anyway; a rule choice is much different than banning a character.

The issue is not about Meta Knight been broken enough or not...

The main issue is that less and less people are playing the game due to the Meta Knight gayness. More people are getting upset of losing to only Meta Knights in tournaments, which within the community, makes it seem an impossible matchup. Only a select group of TOP players, beat the semi-decent Meta Knights at Pound 4. Note how I said "semi-decent", because I didn't see Meta Knights like Mew2King's at the tournament, yet they were ****** and destroying all the TOP players who stayed faithful to their non-MK mains.

People need to understand that the number of TOP players is small and, although slowly growing, basically means that the people that attend tournaments are slightly above average players. If these people stop going to tournaments due to all the gay crap that Meta Knight has to offer, the game will eventually die, and then we will have only Melee, which is not a bad thing, Melee is a GREAT game!!!

Brawl is living a similar life as Tekken 4 did, having a character not broken enough to ban, but overpowered enough to provide an easy solution for TOP players and the average/casual player to WIN matches in tournaments. Only time will tell, and when that happens, don't forget that I SAID IT FIRST!

Kasht

These are just vague statements without any factual back-up. Who, specifically, are these semi-decent MKs beating people they shouldn't be beating? How can you specifically prove less and less people are quitting due to MK based on tournament data?

Until you do that, it's impossible for me or many people to change my (their) mind(s). I can't associate much with Tekken 4, as aside from what the OP said I have absolutely no knowledge about the game.

The only evidence I see of any notable amount of people quitting due to MK would be Puerto Rico and how most of them are allegedly quitting for Melee, however I don't know too much about the subject so I can't say anything about it.

 

[CRASHiC]

Not all items do what you say at all. We have a recommended item list with plenty of items that don't drastically **** the flow of battle. And if you consider random to be broken, then ban Luigi because Luigi might misfire and suddenly gain a stock in a random event. Random may be looked down upon, but its not broken.

And no, its not just a rule choice. Items are an intricate feature of Smash the same way the items are, and its one we choose to ignore. It be like if we played on FD. Its why people joke and say

No Items
Fox Only
Final Destination

Banning a single character compared to how much else we've banned from this game that is a huge part is not that far away.

But your point remains, if something is NOT broken then it should NOT be banned, so don't ban items and let's all play with Overswarm's stage list.

 

[WindMajor]

Broken enough to be banned.

Items are broken in the sense that they provide a non-competitive atmosphere because of the randomness of what the item is and where the item spawns. It makes the game less competitive and does nothing to the viability of individual characters; it just makes the game arbitrarily shift to a certain player's advantage.

This is irrelevant anyway; a rule choice is much different than banning a character.

You can argue that Metaknight doesn't provide a competitive atmosphere because of his gay tactics. Actually, I already did in another thread. It's basically this:

Metaknight has no disadvantaged matchups. His most even matchup is against himself, while the others are at a slight disadvantage.
Metaknight has no bad stages. His opponents just have good stages.
Putting MK at a disadvantage is pretty much impossible, and he's the only character that can say that for himself. That's how he could ruin the competitive side of the game.

But then again, he's beatable, so as uncompetitive as he is, he just isn't uncompetitive enough I guess.

 

[DFat2]

Broken enough to be banned.

Items are broken in the sense that they provide a non-competitive atmosphere because of the randomness of what the item is and where the item spawns. It makes the game less competitive and does nothing to the viability of individual characters; it just makes the

And having to use the same character or to have to choose between 2 or 3 that stand a chance does? Items are random because if you where to charge a smash and a bomb-on would appear, it would loose you the game, right? Why not use the brawl plus hacks and ban trips. It's essentially the same mechanic - a random factor of the game which is generated by the random number generator that does something depending on the random number that appears when the Item is about to be spawned/you initiate a dash?

You've got random trips that, in such terms, could loose you the game. That situation is more likely to happen than the random bomb-on scenario, so you should drop the item's randomness deserving ban because it's brawl.

Items are broken in the sense that they provide a non-competitive atmosphere

So MK provides a Competitive atmosphere? He's bassically forcing you to either give the other player a win (assuming he's playing as gay as possible) or choose MK and out gay him.

I myself did not go to pound 4, but I see the argument from the perspective of the one's who did. You pay 600+ and expect to see some MK's, but you'd never think they would go as far as to win by 2% on time out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be allowed, but it certainly LIMITS your options on winning.

I myself was going to attend Apex 2 but seeing as everyone in PR decided not to travel anymore until something was done about MK, I don't see much option for me going in the future.

Now, A. P., I exhort you to pay to travel to Apex and to play against all the MK's that would be assinged to your pool and/or bracket. Not to get beat or out camped, but so you could see what the people that actually WENT had to go through, that is, if you didn't attend pound 4.

 

[DarkKnight xXx]

I thought u ppl said probanners were dumb, not the other way around. But all I see from the antibans is just rage and telling people to learn the matchup and that they are wifi kids even though they are tourney players that are probably better than you. Have fun with ur mk infested game until it dies...

 

[WindMajor]

I think what the Anti-banners really need is to pay $600 to lose to a planker.

 

[xDD-Master]

Is it some hypothetical number you can know for certain but just assume?

So, just say to me what you think how many people really would quit brawl if MK would be banned, I mean, REALLY QUIT...

He isn't broken enough to be banned, you said it yourself. You shouldn't cater to the people who dislike MK if he isn't broken enough to be banned.

Someone said it already, I think in another Thread, he is not broken enough to break the game, but he is broken enough to break the community, what he already did :/

Sure, online. In-person tournaments don't break into fights because someone uses or counterpicks MK. MK doesn't split the community at all. It's brought up every time a national tournament happens, there's some poll, and a few days later everybody forgets about it and doesn't bring it up until the next national.

It's true that people will quickly forget about it, but it isnt true that in offline battles people dont complain about MK. I was on a tourney, it was my first because we dont have much here, and about 1/3 were using MK, including myself (I won 3 of 4 matches I used him, I dont really play him that much that I even could call him a solic secondary LOL.

This is your opinion on what is fun and what is not.

This is like 90% of the brawl community what is fun and what is not, and planking is NOT. At least for the one getting planked.

This is a competitive fighting game.
You play to win.

So you cant play to win without MK or what ?

If you agree that a character is not broken enough to be banned, but ultimately say he should be banned because the game is more fun without him, then you're contradicting yourself.

Not only the game, the community is more fun, the discussions are more fun, even the people are more fun, and yeah, I'm 100% sure tourneys without hwhawhwhaahhwahaw are more fun, even for all those MK-addicts.

It's irrelevant that the game is more fun because that's not only an opinion, but that's not the goal of competitive fighting game players. The goal is to win, and if it's attainable with something not broken then it's perfectly legitimate.

OK so why did we ban MKs IDC? It isnt unbeatable at all, you just need to get the first %
But because this would make the game a lot stupier we banned it. And so we could do with MK as well, because if he gets the first %, against a few characters he already has a win, and that can be already done by people who play MK like 1 day, just because he is so ****ing easy (I won a tournament using MK only after I played him like 3 days... well it was online so it doesnt count right?)

An opinion.

So opinions doesnt matter or what?
Why do we even ban stages?
Because the opinion of a majority of SBR members found that stages banworthy.

Why did we ban items?

Why did we ban IDC?

Why do we have 8 minutes and 3 stocks?

Why did we decide that Bowser will win a match with his Side-B, even if the game decides to not do so? Is this broken or what?

It's just the opinion that it makes the game better, which all the above stated things really do (Not the stage thing, to many stages are banned)

What I really dont understand is, how people like to limit the game as most possible, how can someone be so much against viability and diversity in a game...

 

[solecalibur]

The playing to win term is associated with MK is because a lot of MK's are planking & scoorging etc and not many other players are camping at that level of competitive play

 

[xDD-Master]

The playing to win term is associated with MK is because a lot of MK's are planking & scoorging etc and not many other players are camping at that level of competitive play

Everyone that is at that level of competetive play will use MK wo plank & scoorge instead of using another risky character, so there arent others, maybe 2-3 exceptions (DMG & UTD Zac xD). MK is easy, hands down... I wonder if all these MKs would place that well if MK would be banned and they all would be using the best character then (Snake, Diddy, Wario, Marth idk)... I'm sure they wouldnt because the characters are harder to learn and they also have counters, at least slight disadventages

gn8

 

[MagicJosh]

But your point remains, if something is NOT broken then it should NOT be banned

That

Anyways, I really liked this read, and the comparison with tekken. Although it still (yeah, after all this time) is a little too early to REALLY be banning and whatnot. While there may not be a whole new change in the metagame that will change the MK MUs, there's always a chance the little findings might swing it a tad in favor of NOT banning him.

 

[HoN3Y64]

everyone is forgetting his sword is the motha****ing galaxia

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Here's a suggestion.

Let's get rid of all the rules to limit MK. No more planking ban, no more scrooging ban, no more IDC ban, etc. Anything that, however obviously, was put there to make MK a less viable character. Just remove it from the ruleset, and then wait a few months, see how healthy the metagame is.

I love hearing people say "We shouldn't impose rules on just Metaknight; he's either broken or he isn't". Okay, put your money where your mouth is, run high-level tournaments without the planking/scrooging rules. No matter how you put it, they're more or less there to limit MK, especially because MK is the only character that can truly counter other characters planking effectively. So let's get rid of those rules, and see how the metagame develops. Or... I liked the suggestion that MK can only CP neutrals, that was pretty good. Makes some of his matchups that are ****ed by gay stages more fair (try playing as snake on RC against MK), and makes certain stages more fair (Luigi's Mansion?). All in all, no rules on MK is a stupidly hypocritical argument.

 

[RATED]

MK must be banned look at this : how many people u know that changed his main to MK? just bcuz they needed a 2nd, started with him as a 2nd , then they saw that MK is pretty broken and they don't need his other main , and here they go with MK as a main when they did nothing with his mains apart from losing. then they get someone that beats his MK , they know the matchup so in order to that MK to beat that " someone" they plank and those stuff, then the other player keeps getting discouraged and start 2nding MK and here u know the rest of the story.


DO U PEOPLE WANT THAT? MK is a "free skill boost" to the player.

 

[King Funk]

MK must be banned look at this : how many people u know that changed his main to MK? just bcuz they needed a 2nd, started with him as a 2nd , then they saw that MK is pretty broken and they don't need his other main , and here they go with MK as a main when they did nothing with his mains apart from losing. then they get someone that beats his MK , they know the matchup so in order to that MK to beat that " someone" they plank and those stuff, then the other player keeps getting discouraged and start 2nding MK and here u know the rest of the story.


DO U PEOPLE WANT THAT? MK is a "free skill boost" to the player.

How about all the people who mained MK since the very beginning and have made names for themselves using the character? We can't just tell them "get a secondary, *****".

 

[AvaricePanda]

This is what I tried to avoid.

stuff about items

This is a completely different argument than what I originally posted. You took part of what I said and ran with it. I'll just say this now; I'm not an expert with items vs. non-items play so you can persuade me that maybe items being banned isn't the best thing. But for all intents and purposes I don't care, because this isn't relevant at all to what I was saying.

You can argue that Metaknight doesn't provide a competitive atmosphere because of his gay tactics. Actually, I already did in another thread. It's basically this:

Metaknight has no disadvantaged matchups. His most even matchup is against himself, while the others are at a slight disadvantage.
Metaknight has no bad stages. His opponents just have good stages.
Putting MK at a disadvantage is pretty much impossible, and he's the only character that can say that for himself. That's how he could ruin the competitive side of the game.

But then again, he's beatable, so as uncompetitive as he is, he just isn't uncompetitive enough I guess.

This has been said since 2008. This entire argument has been said since 2008. My main point wasn't to argue with pro-ban about their decisions, my main point was to try to make you bring something new to the table, because if you just go back to the other Ban MK polls, you will see 30 other people post exactly this, and 30 more people refute exactly this. There is no point of reposting it a second time.

So, just say to me what you think how many people really would quit brawl if MK would be banned, I mean, REALLY QUIT...

I don't know. It's a hypothetical number, and its pointless to bring up in a debate unless you can provide evidence of people saying they'd do so or that have already quit because of MK.

Someone said it already, I think in another Thread, he is not broken enough to break the game, but he is broken enough to break the community, what he already did :/

I responded to this. You just said the same thing you already said.

It's true that people will quickly forget about it, but it isnt true that in offline battles people dont complain about MK. I was on a tourney, it was my first because we dont have much here, and about 1/3 were using MK, including myself (I won 3 of 4 matches I used him, I dont really play him that much that I even could call him a solic secondary LOL.

I never said people don't complain about MK. I said that MK doesn't split the community in in-person tournaments. People don't yell or insult other people for using MK. The debates only really happen online, people don't actually care much in tournaments. Sure, it's kinda tense to lose to a planking MK, but it's the same way for a D3 that wall infinited you or CGd you to the blast zone.

You can't bring up the fact that you beat random people with your random MK. If these people aren't notable or good, it doesn't matter. Mediocre MKs do really well against mediocre players, yes, but the metagame isn't focused on low-level play.

This is like 90% of the brawl community what is fun and what is not, and planking is NOT. At least for the one getting planked.

So because a defeatable tactic (that you said was defeatable yourself) isn't fun, it shouldn't be left in the game? Great, so ban Falco's laser camping, Snake's grenade camping, Ice Climber's infinite chaingrabs, D3's chaingrabs, Diddy's banana camping, any characters match-up specific locks on any character, etc.

So you cant play to win without MK or what ?

That's not at all what I was saying. I'm saying that you play competitive fighting games to win. If you can do that legitimately without any character being broken, which you said yourself, then there's no reason to ban a character because they aren't fun.

Not only the game, the community is more fun, the discussions are more fun, even the people are more fun, and yeah, I'm 100% sure tourneys without hwhawhwhaahhwahaw are more fun, even for all those MK-addicts.

This is based on what? Just random statements? I wouldn't even say the discussions are more fun, because the discussions only happen after a national really, and then people like to bring up the MK issue again.

OK so why did we ban MKs IDC? It isnt unbeatable at all, you just need to get the first %
But because this would make the game a lot stupier we banned it. And so we could do with MK as well, because if he gets the first %, against a few characters he already has a win, and that can be already done by people who play MK like 1 day, just because he is so ****ing easy (I won a tournament using MK only after I played him like 3 days... well it was online so it doesnt count right?)

MK's IDC is unbeatable. The instant MK gets a percent lead, he wins. There's no questions about it. There's no characters that can work around it like planking, he doesn't have to watch out for regrabbing the ledge 40 times, he just wins. It's definitely unbeatable in practice.

I don't remember seeing a lot of discussion on what you could do to get around a planking MK. People just seemed to complain about it without trying to find a solution. Again, I've been gone for 5 months so I could be wrong, but there were hardly any "What can we do against planking?" threads in Tactical or individual Character discussions.

It was an online tournament, probably with absolutely no reputable players. Of course it doesn't count because it's not even near the metagame.

So opinions doesnt matter or what?

No. Factless opinions don't matter.

An opinion such as, "Norfair should be banned," can be backed up with evidence of how it favors a few characters too much and shifts match-ups too much.

An opinion such as, "Why stress about MK when we could just have fun playing Brawl?" is purely an opinion. What can you back this up with? You're assuming everybody stresses about MK, which other than the standard "I need to know this match-up level," is false, and you're assuming that nobody has fun playing MK, which is definitely false. It's your own opinion on what's fun and what's not, but you're assuming it applies to everyone.

Which is false. Opinions only matter if you can back them up with something.

Why do we even ban stages?
Because the opinion of a majority of SBR members found that stages banworthy.

An opinion provided with evidence of how leaving in the stages would overall be worse for the game.

Why did we ban items?

Look above.

Why did we ban IDC?

Because of the, opinion yes, of nearly all the SBR members that it's a clearly broken, instant-win tactic.

Why do we have 8 minutes and 3 stocks?

Because of the opinion of SBR members, provided with evidence (I can't speak for them though because I'm not in the SBR) that having an 8 minute 3 stock match would make for the most ideal competitive match.

Why did we decide that Bowser will win a match with his Side-B, even if the game decides to not do so? Is this broken or what?

If you're arguing that IDC technically isn't broken but this is, lol. And it's because it's a controllable and avoidable action. Bowser has a move that makes you both die, but because Bowser initiated the move it should be a kill for him.

It's just the opinion that it makes the game better, which all the above stated things really do (Not the stage thing, to many stages are banned)

The whole MK ban debate is an opinion. Match-up numbers are opinions, stage lists are opinions, nearly everything about this game is an opinion. The difference between, "Let's ban Bridge of Eldin," vs. "Let's ban MK because he isn't fun," is that you can back up your statement of banning BoE because of the large blast-zones and walk-offs. You can't back up a statement about having fun, because fun is something that's purely suggestive. I personally have fun fighting MKs, as do a lot of people. A lot of people don't. You can't use, "nobody thinks MK is fun," as an argument because that's just what you think.

What I really dont understand is, how people like to limit the game as most possible, how can someone be so much against viability and diversity in a game...

Because it's viability and diversity you can't prove would exist that you would get from banning a character you said was not broken, I'm all for it.

Everyone that is at that level of competetive play will use MK wo plank & scoorge instead of using another risky character, so there arent others, maybe 2-3 exceptions (DMG & UTD Zac xD). MK is easy, hands down... I wonder if all these MKs would place that well if MK would be banned and they all would be using the best character then (Snake, Diddy, Wario, Marth idk)... I'm sure they wouldnt because the characters are harder to learn and they also have counters, at least slight disadventages

gn8

Are you saying these MK mains aren't that good players and don't deserve the top spots, or are you saying they'd just have difficulty with another character?

If it's the former, you're basing this argument off of nothing and are pretty much saying, "Their wins are less important because they use MK." If it's the latter, obviously, because they've had to switch from a main they've used for months if not years to a new person, so it's clear they wouldn't do as well.

You're also implying that at top levels of play, a slight disadvantage like 45-55 will determine the winner of the game. That's also a silly assumption. Match-up numbers are suggestive as they are, and at top levels it's player skill which takes precedence over anything else.

I could go into more detail but there's no point if you obviously don't feel like reading what's been said about this subject 30 times in the past MK ban threads.

large, hypothetical, baseless loose story

Which doesn't matter because you haven't listed specific people who have done this.

I'm really not trying to debate, even though I pretty much am. I've been gone for 5 months and I honestly don't know what happened then. Has MK dominated more tournaments? I don't know. I could consider being neutral if pro-ban had a new argument, but they don't. Your argument, aside from a few national tournament results which only show top players getting the top spots, has been the exact same since 2008. In 2008 people were saying how MK will cripple the metagame, everything will be MK dittos, the game won't live until 2010, etc. Well guess what? It's 2010 and people are still saying the exact same things.

What's the point of posting something if 10 people a year ago said the exact same thing and 10 other people refuted the exact same thing? Is it because of laziness, and people just don't feel like searching back to previous ban debates? Or is it really because you think you'll persuade more people if you just keep saying it over and over again?

There is absolutely no point of there being another discussion if pro-ban says the same thing over and over again and expects people's opinions to finally change. Bring something new to the table. If you want to prove that MK is taking the top spots, do so with solid tournament results analysis, and not just nationals (which at this point seems lazy), I mean taking regions, seeing their larger or regional tournaments and seeing if over time the results have shifted.

But if you're too lazy to spend the time to read sections of the multiple past debate threads on his ban, look at the arguments, formulate your own opinion, and construct a clear argument as to why MK should or shouldn't be banned rather than spewing the same thing over and over again, you have absolutely no say on voting on an issue that will affect every single competitive Brawl player for months if not years.

 

[Kasht]

So many opinions in this thread, makes me wonder who of all the people posting actually travel to go to major tournaments!

 

[rvkevin]

I'm not too informed about other fighting games...but if Akuma was broken due to his aerial fireball or whatever it was, why didn't they just make a rule to remove the broken tactic instead of removing the entire character?