• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

BRAWL+ Character Ratings

Status
Not open for further replies.

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
*gpa info snip*
this is all fine and dandy, but it'd be better if you didn't GPA-ize both categoryies. One is obviously for Defense and the other for offense. If you merge them both, you make characters seem better than they actually are, because characters with high offense are granted a good GPA and the other way around with high defense and low offense.

Make a GPA for Defense, and a seperate one for Offense.

Also, according to this, Marth is the best character in the game, with Snake being second, and MK being third. Therefore if we should ne nerfing anyone, it should be Marth. :p
And this is exactly why, you should make two difference versions, becase Marth does not warrent a nerf. Snake and MK are still better characters.

I'm not saying this due to Bias of Marth being my main, but I'm saying this because it doesnt seem logical. a character with a sub-par to mediocre defense and superb to great offense, will look better than he actually is because of the method you use.

That, and this list isnt finalized, so until its finalized, saying which characters should be nerfed or not is just asking for trouble.
 

Finns7

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
896
Jiang wtf I thought you where playing around...Ganondorf can punish one wrong move and in 3 hits you have 80 percent lulz.......links survivability should be higher than D, Id rather be link than fox, falco, Ivy hell alot of chars. With proper DI and skill it should be C. Setups should be higher.................

You know what nevermind.......... When the KB code comes out just decrease dthrow grab kb and increas upb KB

/Link
 

CountKaiser

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
1,370
Location
In space
Jiang, wtf? G&W deserves at least a C in zoning. His fishbowl and turtle all serve to deter all but the longest range attacks and stronger projectiles. His dtilt is also great for keeping people at bay.
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,716
Location
Chicago
On a side note. I think you can expand the "out of sheild" to pressure.

Out of shield is just one variable of being able to deal with pressure. But id like to hear other opinions as well.
 

KarateF22

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
244
Location
North Carolina
Lucario needs an A+ for followup, his fair can almost infinitely combo, nearly all of his low knockback moves combo at low to mid percents and he has a uthrow chaingrab on most of the cast.... which gets progressively more deadly the faster you fall (it absolutely ***** fox, takes him to 80% or more).

Due to the fact that he can literally fair chain someone to the blast line and then recover with extremespeed, he should also get his finishing upgraded to B. His ability to KO at astonishingly low percents with a well executed fair chain makes his finishing capability very good. For example, i once chained someone with a uthrow to utilt to fair chain from 0%, the fair chain carried the opponent with its low knockback to the blast line and killed them. he can potentially do this to everyone.

His punishing MAY or MAY NOT require an upgrade.... its hard to tell. he can punish with his grab at low to mid percents by setting up for chaingrab or uthrow to utilt spam and possibly fair chain follow up. Havent fought enough people yet to tell. ATM i do think its more of a B though.... lucario's grab game got a lot nastier with the hitstun increase.

His approach is where is should be.... he has some options, like his aura sphere, but he isnt an almighty burst through all defenses fighter. Ill look more into it though.

Ill post later on defense once ive examined it more.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Some Lucas advice:

I think his survivability is mediocre (C), not bad -- huge double jump AD (sometimes to tether) is a pretty solid recovery, his PKT2 has surprising range and and its ending DI is decently mindgameable if not sweet spotted, and he has average weight. He's certainly not as bad as link (D).

Follow ups is now a C, not an F. His now faster Utilt can lead to at least one arial, and can generate Nair/Uair/Utilt combos at percents below 70. With momentum he can actually link Fairs together

Finishing is at least C, maaaybe B. F-smash is a fantastic kill move -- fast and decent range killing between 85% and 100% depending on location/opponent. D-smash also kills at mid-low percentages and is a great anti-sweetspot guard. Lastly, momentum makes offstage fairs a more reliable kill option.

The other characters I've been playing a lot recently (Mario, Ganon, Squirtle, Falcon) all look right on.
 

RyuReiatsu

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
408
Tell that to Metaknight.

Plus, aren't we talking about B+ here?
Yes, but I'm showing his potential in vB, they're taken out a lot of aerial lag and gave him a longer recovery. He's improved and they might improve him even more.
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,716
Location
Chicago
That style of play is completely useless in brawl+. We have hitstun now. That kind of camping is hardly viable.

And besides. Snake is one of the few exceptions where Link could actually compete with on VB. He'd get destroyed by any other character.

Plus that's japan.

Having 3 projectiles means crap if they are bad. I mean if you still get out camped by ROB's 2 projectiles and Falco/Pit/+others 1 projectile when you have 3..... LOLZ @ Terrible moveset. (If Link could glide toss with bombs he might have a chance but he can't)

Recovery and air lag were only a portion of what made Link bad........It's his knockback that completely ****s him over. Almost all of his moves have enough knock back so that Link can't combo with his crappy 2nd jump. The only thing Link can do at low percents is zair combo's that are followed up with a dash attack or U-tilt U-tilt U-tilt and maybe a U-air. At the same time, none of them are really good at killing except for dair. Only thing you can combo into for a kill consistently is a D-throw to U-air and grabbing for Link is risky cause of punishment. That being said, Links finishing moves are D at best. Almost all moves are moderate knock back with no setups...

Get over it Jiang is right.

Add that all up and your a girl as you claim.
 

Finns7

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
896
I reallllllllllllly dont agree with some things but w/e....

Thats the only true way to play Vbrawl at high lvls of play.



Ganondorf should be raised in the punishment category.

Finisher for Link is a C, He can survive better than D (based off you saying marth and mario are higher).

All link needs to complete him is a upb buff....He is viable now in the right hands, but the upb buff completes him.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,051
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Sonic's categories do not seem very accurate. I would increase Zoning and Finishing at least a bit.

Maybe a C for Zoning, D for Finishing. Not great, but there are a fair number of characters I would consider worse than Sonic overall, as opposed to only 1.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Iowa
I think Snake's follow-ups should be B. His ftilt sets up for techchasing if you just use the first hit. His mortar slide and dash attack are excellent chasers for both comboing and techchasing. His DAC into utilt goes into any aerial, and that move is really easy to land. His Bair also actually ends pretty early, and is sometimes chainable. Not to mention all his explosives have hitstun, which is great for dodging grenade explosions then punishing for the kill. Also if your fast enough you can drop > regrab his grenades with an aerial to follow up with those. He has the potential to pressure insanely well combined with his stage control tactics(Mines etc.).

Just my opinion from trying him out for a while.
 

GimR

GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
5,602
Location
Maryland
NNID
VGBC_GimR
Kirby has really really good zoning


G&W is EXTREMELY GOOD at zoning


They both have D's on your list
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
Ganondorf has great punishment, with his Flame Choke especially. It leads into immediate techchasing, and with a faster Choke it only gets better. Plus, it's easier to use dair from it with less lag. Also, he can still punish grounded approaches with AC dair, his punishing is up there with some of the best, as he can practically kill you from every mistake you make.

Also, his zoning definitely improved... With a faster jab and a super-hitbox dtilt, he can definitely keep opponents at bay fairly well. Not B-level, but D in the very least.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
Let me take a try at this -

:wolf: [Wolf]
(Survivability - F )
(Resilience - F )
(Out of Shield - C )
(Zoning - B )
------
(Punishing - A )
(Approach - B )
(Follow-Ups - A )
(Finishing - B )

- Survivability -
I'd say Wolf is very much like Fox in a sense. Wolf's recovery is terrible, worst than the other spacies to a notable degree. His side-B can make opponents wary of his attempt to get back on stage, but if he's forced to recover low or if his opponent is competent and can perfect shield his side-B sweetspots, every time he is on the ledge he will struggle more than most characters in this game.

Let's not forget his ledge options aren't too amazing either. What is it...ledgehop laser, reflector if they're too close, fair which can still be punished due to landing lag, bair walljump on Battlefield only...err, anyway, ledge jump is like his best option, combine this with the fact that he sucks at recovering...yeah, he's deserving of the grade.

- Resilience -
Honestly, he's a spacie. Like a spacie, he's bound to get punished like hell once he makes a mistake. He's very prone to getting juggled. If he's in that position, generally he has dair and reflector...that's it. Sword characters will devastate Wolf from below.

- Out of Shield -
I guess his options really haven't changed from vB to B+. His bair is still good, personally I love his Usmash due to its suctioning properties and how it sets up juggles (it's basically Marth's Usmash). Fair is still good although it seems it won't autocancel anymore (which is fine, everyone considered his bair was much more important I assume).

Nair *could* be used, but really if they're on you like that you should Usmash them. Due to Auto L-cancels, dair is okay for anyone still in lag and "mis-spaced."

His grab range is poor but his grab jabs are insane, plus his throws are pretty good with the added hitstun. All of them lead to a poor position or even a combo opportunity. However, all his moves have trouble punishing any who space somewhat decently, and mostly those that are short. His best move: bair will probably have to be FF'd to reach a character like Kirby. In that time Kirby would probably be ready to wreck you again.

- Zoning -
His bair is like one of the best zoning tools in the game that's melee-based. It's similar to Marth's fair. Unlike Marth's fair though, it lacks a low-swooping hitbox for those that are short. However, you can bait an approach then punish with the *lolwut* fsmash. His laser is a slow moving projectile that can annoy your opponents as well. It does well as an anti-air projectile as well. Momentum really helps him out, as his aerial momentum was still pretty good in vB.

-Punishing-
All his moves are excellent punishers. Fsmash has great range and can kill due to a lack of move decay. Dsmash has amazing KO potential and can set up for edgeguards...as well as be an edgeguard itself. In CQC, he has jab combos, and Reflector, which if not properly DI'd can lead into Fsmash or Dsmash. On the edge, ftilt is a great move for latching out to those trying to grab the ledge horizontally (it can be angled for varying purposes). His dair is similar to Capt. Falcon's, it sets up for stuff that can kill, as well as be fake chains on those who cannot tech in time.

-Approach-
His approach game is pretty good, although again his issue with reaching short people, while small (lolpun), hurts his approach game a bit, as he will have to FF. Technically fsmash could be an approach move, but it's not really as safe as bair; the same applies to fair and grabs. I personally would rather zone then punish mistakes like that than outright approach.

-Follow-Ups-
I think this is where Wolf *shines* the most (punsaredumb). Almost every move of his can be followed up somehow. If in doubt, bair. Fair starts juggles, and can end them. Uair keeps them up in the air. Dair sets up for about anything aerial-based. Dash attack can set up for an aerial. Usmash is a combo starter, and can kill as well. Dtilt > Fsmash or tech chase, etc.

-Finishing-
Like Marth, Wolf benefits a lot from the removal of move decay. Almost all of his bread-and-butter moves can kill, but in vB they were used too much to do so. Bair, fair, Usmash, Dsmash, Fsmash...they can all kill. He is also a great edgeguarder, so yeah...he's amazing. Blah, blah, blah.

I might do TL later, here's my grade thoughts though -

:toonlink: [Toon Link]
(Survivability - C )
(Resilience - B )
(Out of Shield - C )
(Zoning - B )
------
(Punishing - A )
(Approach - B )
(Follow-Ups - B )
(Finishing - B )
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,716
Location
Chicago
all considered in survivability.

I'm still in favor of changin OOS to "dealing with pressure* but w/e

@Finnz...That would help....a lot...but hes still like one of 2 D characters where as everbody else is at least C. His overall knockback needs to be completly revamped.

and why you guys made Link's up B better I don't know but it helped a little. . a Lot of VB players would tell you that its not Links up B that sucks, it is his second jump. It limited his recovery and restricted any combo range he has which is a significant factor in B+

(but I suppose all that is my personal opinion)
 

Adetque

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 21, 2009
Messages
149
Aren't they aiming for no tier list? Aren't they trying to make all the characters equal?
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
We're shooting for a pretty level tier list (if you can call it that), but that's only so possible. This list will help newer players find characters that fit their styles as well as help us identify potential problem characters. It's not really a tier list at all since it doesn't account for matchups or (nearly non-existent) tourney results.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
True balance is somewhat accepted to be an impossibility. Some characters will always have more superior matchups than others.

We strive to make it so that every character has the potential to win a tournament. That said, a fundamental component of Brawl (and Brawl+) is that of counterpicks. I honestly don't think a player should be expected to be able to win a tournament by using only one character.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
Premium
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
3,458
Location
Rochester, NY
I am in a fair agreement about the offensive options of G&W but for the defensive aspect I have to disagree...

Survivability: his weight means nothing in terms of survivability. Bucket braking lets him live to absurd percents for the second lightest character in the game.

Resilience: Agreed.. light and pretty floaty so combos against him aren't much of a worry.

OOS: I would agree on this one. His Up B is great out of shield in terms of a get away move and can put him in good position an aerial if he cancels it into it. Other then that he doesn't have much... His grab range is abysmal and if he is pushed back at all then a grab is out of the question and unless he is shielding a very laggy attack he can't really get a tilt in before the opponent can just avoid it.

Zoning: He is crazy good at this! Insane range and hitboxes that don't even make sense on all of his moves. He doesn't have the range as something like Link's Zair but he gets the job very well. Even if the opponent can react to what G&W is doing they are going to have a hard time getting anything through unless their named Marth or MK (invincibility frames on very quick Up B's that can go through things like Bair) He doesn't have a projectile game to control the stage but he dominates the immediate space around him and he is a great character at putting you in that space. Is he the best? No, but I wouldn't say D.

One last thing..
Finishing: B? He is a killing MACHINE. He rarely has a single issue with killing, the exception being Wario who is floaty and heavy enough to cause issues. Even with that, G&W can force you into a kill move. Dthrow causes automatic tech chases which leads to Usmashes and his Usmash insane; if the opponent doesn't tech it is a free Dsmash. He isn't a character who has to rely on punishing to get a kill either. Things like Nair will guarantee a smash if you fast fall it so G&W lands before the knockback hit of Nair.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Pardon my ignorance,but I wasn't aware G&W could bucket brake too effectively in Brawl+.

Doesn't that involve bucketing after you're out of hitstun? Which would now take place after you've lost most of your momentum anyways (or you're dead already)?
 

CountKaiser

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
1,370
Location
In space
Plum, bucket braking doesn't work in B+ because you can't cancel hitstun early.

I agree with your comment on Zoning, though.
 

Samuelson

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
1,754
Location
Not at Kinko's straight flippin' copies
Nobody is good OoS in this game? What about Marth, MK and Samus's Up B's. I would think that they would still be pretty good in Brawl+ even with hitstun. I don't understand why Bowser would have the best OoS options...
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,318
Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
[Link]
(Survivability - D )
(Resilience - D )
(Out of Shield - D )
(Zoning - C )
------
(Punishing - D )
(Approach - C )
(Follow-Ups - C )
(Finishing - F )
Why am I not surprised? I was beginning to think that maybe I was crazy and I may have forgotten how to play Link or something, but no. Link is still terrible in Brawl+. He has some of the wimpiest KO moves in the game, he's easy to ledgeguard and everything else is very mediocre.

If we could, I would make him have average Finishers (buff Up-B please), but I also wish to do something about his zoning. He was known for his zoning in Melee and his Boomerang provided good zoning in 64, I don't understand why Sakurai made all his weapons suck.
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
Why am I not surprised? I was beginning to think that maybe I was crazy and I may have forgotten how to play Link or something, but no. Link is still terrible in Brawl+. He has some of the wimpiest KO moves in the game, he's easy to ledgeguard and everything else is very mediocre.

If we could, I would make him have average Finishers (buff Up-B please), but I also wish to do something about his zoning. He was known for his zoning in Melee and his Boomerang provided good zoning in 64, I don't understand why Sakurai made all his weapons suck.
I saw this coming... and jiang has made it unavoidably clear to you people. Link is NOT tourny viable .. he is NOT as good as some of you say he is. He has terrible kill moves and hardly any combos with hitstun where it is now. Please PLEASE fix him... one thing that would make him so much better it to up HIS individual hitstun just a little to give him back some of his combos he had 2 or so months ago. This might not even be enough seeing as how he had combos and a great kill move in melee and he still sucked.

Something must be done when the nessasary codes are created. Hopefully what shortfuse is working on will work and we will have the codes to make him better (and others)

I said I wouldnet ***** about link anymore until tounys, but I'm sorry. I didn't make any promises.
 

SSJ5Goku8932

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
1,783
Location
Texas
Nobody is good OoS in this game? What about Marth, MK and Samus's Up B's. I would think that they would still be pretty good in Brawl+ even with hitstun. I don't understand why Bowser would have the best OoS options...
Fortress comes to mind.Not to mention that Bowsers Shield is like, one of the best in the game.That thing could eat a whole Mach tornado in Brawl.
 

Samuelson

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
1,754
Location
Not at Kinko's straight flippin' copies
Fortress comes to mind.Not to mention that Bowsers Shield is like, one of the best in the game.That thing could eat a whole Mach tornado in Brawl.
Everybody's shield can eat a whole mach tornado in Brawl as long as they tilt their shield up...Fortress is good OoS i will admit but Marth's Up B is beastly and MK has SOOOO many options OoS. Better versions than Bowser anyways...maybe there was some code that made Bowser better OoS or something?
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
Bowser does not have the best OoS in the game. He's a massive target, and Fortress is his only saviour outside of maybe grab or Nair.

Meta Knight, amongst a few other characters, have far superior options out of their shields.
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
8,075
Location
Dedham, MA
Question:

what exactly can we *do* to characters in the making of Brawl+?

can we change frame data? Priorety? Power?
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,318
Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
we can change the frames that do not affect hitboxes (in case of hitboxes, only the frames after the hitboxes can be modded) and we are testing the code to modify knockback.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
We can change move speed, weight, and in the near future move knockback and damage.

Priority is actually more of an arbitrary concept constructed from a variety of factors, most of which would be difficult to change, with the exception of damage, which effects part of what determines overall "priority." I'd leave this one alone.

Edit: Beaten to it. The forums are alive tonight.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom