Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[B.W.]

It wouldn't be a problem. We'd still have the DI to get out of combos so 0-death wouldn't be possible due to higher damage giving more knockback. And DI is active during hitstun so you couldn't start a combo with one thing, then use anything to keep it going. You'd still have to be creative to keep it going.

 

[MuBa]

I think all we need is to just tweak the hitstun, dash dance, and L-cancel (or Magus's version) code and we'll be on our way to have a good Brawl+ game.

It'll be a great combination of 64's floaty physics and Melee's freedom of movement which in itself becomes a unique game. If people call it Melee 2.0, then let them. As long as they like the game and it's fun to watch/play that's all it should matter.

Guys I believe we're getting close to the ideal Brawl+ game we've been trying to look for.

 

[B.W.]

Thing is, l-cancel wouldn't matter for some characters because the lag from their aerials are so small they really don't even need the l-cancel, and that makes it quite unfair for those that have to have button press to cancel their moves.

I would say we might as well just half time everything, but the disadvantage would still remain as the half time for some of the characters would be longer than the half time of the characters already short laggy attacks.

I think I explained that correctly.

 

[Sanu]

Good stuff guys. Not sure if this has been brought up... but THIS should be the next hack you work on. Keeping the running momentum when you do an aerial move. When running an doing an aerial attack in normal brawl, your speed dies and you slow down to walking speed... all while being in the air of course.

Once that hack is created (and the DD hack, probably), it will definitely be perfect.

 

[OrieL]

I don't post on these boards as much as I lurk... But I read all 40 pages... and I'm really excited for brawl +.

One thing I noticed is that WD is the way to go. The approach game becomes SO much better and you can combo so much more with JUST wavedashing. When you add L cancel into the mix it makes it even better. IMO, the best part about those two hacks is that they change the game enough so that major depth is added... But it still feels like brawl and not melee. With that being said... I'm against taking wavedashing out, It seems like something brawl needs; and there's no way I can be biased because I didn't play melee competitively. I can barely WD consistently. I don't really think Hit stun is the way to go with brawl... there are too many moves that'll greatly benefit from hit stun.


All in all I like that this is happening.

 

[Discolicious]

I don't know about you guys but I'm having so much fun with Ike and DK while shield canceling. It's
unbelievably dirty (very unfair for characters like Lucario) and the tiers would flip topsy turvey. Also I was pretty much a perfect wavedasher in melee and I seem to ALWAYS shield dash in brawl (the shorter distance one that ends in shield) any tips?

 

[Makkun]

I don't know about you guys but I'm having so much fun with Ike and DK while shield canceling. It's
unbelievably dirty (very unfair for characters like Lucario) and the tiers would flip topsy turvey. Also I was pretty much a perfect wavedasher in melee and I seem to ALWAYS shield dash in brawl (the shorter distance one that ends in shield) any tips?

Instead of wavedashing with L/R and holding your stick diagonally down, use Z and keep your stick perfectly horizontal. Perform the wavedash with VERY fast timing, almost press jump/Z at the same time, very similar to JC grabbing in Melee.

 

[Discolicious]

kk thx one sec ill try that

 

[Makkun]

kk thx one sec ill try that

Also, remember that with Z, you should be able to let go of the button much faster. Make sure to tap Z as quickly as possible without holding it for too long.

 

[Discolicious]

ok thats pretty sick just wavesmashing back and forth with TL but TL seems to be the only one I can get. Is the timing different for each character?

Edit: your Z method can't really work for any character with a tether grab because it has a tendency to zair...just a thought

 

[Team Giza]

I think all we need is to just tweak the hitstun, dash dance, and L-cancel (or Magus's version) code and we'll be on our way to have a good Brawl+ game.

The shielding system is actually the major issue with the game. D: Since shieldstun is so low and people can drop their shields almost instantly it gets rid of the usage of a lot of options.

 

[Yeroc]

Aye, and Z doesn't work for uphill WD's either because you'll probably upsmash. Make the transition to R (or change your Z button to Sheild and use something else for grab). Unless you used R to WD in Melee. Then I don't know what to tell you. :\

Edit: Giza, that's why I'm currently favoring the S-cancel code. Ridiculously broken offense to counter ridiculously broken defense.

 

[Stormblast]

Do want JP or PAL codes! ;_;

 

[Discolicious]

Aye, and Z doesn't work for uphill WD's either because you'll probably upsmash. Make the transition to R (or change your Z button to Sheild and use something else for grab). Unless you used R to WD in Melee. Then I don't know what to tell you. :\

Edit: Giza, that's why I'm currently favoring the S-cancel code. Ridiculously broken offense to counter ridiculously broken defense.

Yeah melee had some good shield pressure tactics but this game kind of lacks thats why I really like s-cancel. Anybody with two people nearby able to test who can shield grab who first with an s-canceled aerial? (s-canceling has like instant frame shield grab upon landing)

Oh and Yeroc, any insight into what the Broom thinks about Brawl+?

 

[kupo15]

See here is the problem with Brawl. It is programmed so that you cant combo. Not only by the air dodge system but the moves are just not programmed to keep ppl close. Every move acts like a powerhouse in a way that sends ppl out far enough that it makes comboing impossible. They are programmed in a way that resets the momentum every hit. The proof is in that hitstun code did not solve our combo problems.


Look here. 64 had the same problem with their moves sending ppl away too far. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEec8yifjDw Notice at the very beginning, Falcon's Dthrow sends fox away just as far as brawl does? Now look at the difference with melee here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3zIGvc5DLk&feature=related This is just one example but see how melee's moves are programmed for comboing by keeping the opponents closer? This is why melee's hitstun system (which is now brawls) worked well in melee. Also I think that the fact that melee is less floaty helps you stay closer to the opponent as well.

64 solved its problem with longer hit stun so naturally, the solution to solving the combo problem in brawl is more hitstun like 64. These examples show that brawl and 64 are more similar than brawl and melee.

I think this should be the basis of our combo system then add things as needed to help.

If this isnt proof, maybe Ill make a vid comparing the same moves throughout all three showing the differences.

 

[zxeon]

What version of Smash 64 was that? the american version had different sounds for when you hit people.

 

[kupo15]

that had to be Japan

But can you see that if 64 didnt have the type of stun it had, that the combo game would suffer tremendously? I think they had a great hitstun balance, the problem was that the defense system was weak.

 

[B.W.]

It was Japan.

And Kupo is right.

This idea is definitely worth a shot.

 

[Makkun]

If longer hitstun doesn't work in the end, what about reducing knockback as well?

 

[B.W.]

Depends how much you want it reduced. We do have damage ratio which alters knockback in game. But if we want knockback less than when you put it on 0.9 you'll need a code.

 

[MBlaze]

If longer hitstun doesn't work in the end, what about reducing knockback as well?

Or both? I wonder who's gonna make these codes and how long will it take. x_x

Epic vids btw and great idea.

 

[Makkun]

Or both? I wonder who's gonna make these codes and how long will it take. x_x

Epic vids btw and great idea.

That's what I meant, which is why I said "as well."

 

[Revven]

that had to be Japan

But can you see that if 64 didnt have the type of stun it had, that the combo game would suffer tremendously? I think they had a great hitstun balance, the problem was that the defense system was weak.

Here's the thing though, what separates Brawl from 64 isn't just hitstun, it's the fastfall. In Smash 64, the fastfalling is incredibly fast where as in Brawl it's extremely slow and has a slight delay after you've done a shorthop (i.e: I short hop and for like one second I swear I can't fastfall as early as I'd like to) thus 64 gains more combo potential because you can get to the ground faster and follow where your opponent DIs. Also, almost EVERY move in the put you in the tumble, why even Pika's Utilt at such low percents (I believe at 20% or even 30%) put you into a tumble. Where as all the moves in Brawl that are similar to that are weak hits and therefore don't juggle like they did in 64 and Melee.

Then there's the throwing and no wall techs. The great part about 64 was the fact that you could combo off of walls and walls were HUGE set ups for combos on certain stages. Throwing was ridiculous. Of course this is all common knowledge I'm mentioning you probably already know.

The BEST option I can think of after we have the hitstun code with about the same length as 64's is to make weak hits put you into the tumble. They don't put you into the tumble into later percents if I'm not mistaken, so, if we (in this case PW ) could somehow make it so weak hits put you into the tumble THEN we would have more combos than what we would have without it. They put weak hit attacks in there probably for people who DID want combos and could use them as set ups, as we've seen with the Brawl meta game this is true, a LOT of the weak hit attacks are used for set ups (i.e Fox's dash attack into Utilt or Pika's Utilt). If the weak hits were made to put you into the tumble, then DDD couldn't CG and neither could Falco (if I'm right his Dthrow is a weak hit too, correct?) Then and only then would you have Smash 64 hitstun completely. Smash 64s hitstun doesn't work well without these two factors.

1) Faster fastfalls
2) Weak hits putting you into the tumble at lower percents

Then I believe you would achieve what you're thinking of. Then again, I think that Smash 64 hitstun is a bit too much for Brawl but, for experimental purposes, I do NOT mind pursuing this idea if the changed hitstun code (when it comes out) doesn't help at all.

Edit: OR alternatively, like Magus420 proposed, DI weak hits.

 

[Makkun]

I think it would be easiest to make it so weak hits put you into tumble at lower percentages... however I wonder if this would require an extremely long code for EVERY single move in the game... I hope not.

 

[Lawlb0t]

I like the flip flop of the tiers with this. I can see DDD being useless, lol.

 

[Kyd]

MK pretty much gets no benefit either, he maintains all his stuff from before but gains nothing

 

[Makkun]

I like the flip flop of the tiers with this. I can see DDD being useless, lol.

I dunno about with L-canceling, but with S-canceling, I'd be willing to say that DDD becomes top, easily. I haven't played against any good MKs or Snakes but I think even an S-canceling DDD would stomp on their faces. Or just dair them to death. (:

 

[kupo15]

Right, MK's combos are vertical and without good DI its hard for MK to combo horizontally.

Then I believe you would achieve what you're thinking of. Then again, I think that Smash 64 hitstun is a bit too much for Brawl but, for experimental purposes, I do NOT mind pursuing this idea if the changed hitstun code (when it comes out) doesn't help at all.
.

Falco400: Yup, your right. The reason why I think 64 hitstun isn't too much because as you said, brawl is floatier and also, knockback is higher than 64. The **** weak (flinching) hits really mess brawl up because instead of them going into the tumble like 64 so that you can stay close as you increase their percent, they are going nowhere until about 50% depending on the move. At that point, one hit sends them too far away to make up for the distance they went.

So yes, maybe we can fix flinch hits and definitely faster FF or something but we need to lay the groundwork first, 64 hitstun. I wonder if that can be included in the hitstun code or if it has to be a separate one.

 

[thesage]

Kupo you also have to realize that in your example that was Falcon's f-throw (there weren't such things as u-throws or b-throws), and throws were much more powerful in that game.

What really nerfed combos from 64 to melee was the fact the DI was improved by a lot. So I guess I could live to having 64 like hitstun since the DI is better. I don't really know that much yet since I haven't actually played brawl+ yet but we'll see.

Besides, the hitstun code is moot until airdodging out of stun is removed, which I don't believe has been mentioned to have been programmed.

I'm going to get the homebrew channel sometime this weekend to see if this works.

What I really want to see from this is cc'ing, djc(won't happen), and hitstun solved.

 

[kupo15]

right, thats what i ment, Fthrow in 64. No air dodge out of hitstun has already been made, although its buggy so its being fixed. We need to add like a universal 60 frames of hitstun to the tumble immediately after hitstun.
So every move that puts one in the tumble is 60 frames + the normal programmed frames of hitstun for variation.
We would need to test how much is appropriate.

But yea, throws were over powered but the over powered throws compare nicely to the perc at which moves in brawl put you in the tumble. Imagine if 64 had brawls hitstun (with the code). Combos wouldn't exist really. Also, it takes so **** long to recover from ground moves and threads we need the extra hitstun to cover that

 

[thesage]

right, thats what i ment, Fthrow in 64. No air dodge out of hitstun has already been made, although its buggy so its being fixed. We need to add like a universal 60 frames of hitstun to the tumble immediately after hitstun.
So every move that puts one in the tumble is 60 frames + the normal programmed frames of hitstun for variation.
We would need to test how much is appropriate.

But yea, throws were over powered but the over powered throws compare nicely to the perc at which moves in brawl put you in the tumble. Imagine if 64 had brawls hitstun (with the code). Combos wouldn't exist really. Also, it takes so **** long to recover from ground moves and threads we need the extra hitstun to cover that

60 frames sounds like a little too much. We have to program this for brawl's moveset, not 64's moveset. Again I have no idea how the hack feels as I haven't played it yet. I'll see if it's at a smashfest this weekend.

Are there any combos with the new codes?

 

[kupo15]

no, not really. 60 maybe a lot but I would like to start there and work our way down. With brawls overpowered defense, id rather start out having too much hitstun than not enough

 

[SketchHurricane]

I also think Kupo was on the right path in pointing out Brawl's defense vs 64's offense. Even hitstun equal to 64 would probably be passable, since we already have a lot more defensive options to prevent run-away offense . Better DI, better shields, air dodging, not to mention spot dodging...all these defensive options would counter any run-away offense we might create with codes, don't you think?

I'll mess around with the hitstun code tonight or tomorrow. But don't you guys think you should be PM'ing Phantom Wings with all this info? Or whoever else is actually hacking?

Kupo, I don't think it would be out of line to create a new thread to showcase your argument for a more 64 oriented hacking approach.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'd imagine that something close to 60 frames wouldn't be that bad, actually. It sounds like a lot, but with brawl's slower gameplay, it really will probably not be that bad. I get the feeling that we won't be going below 40 frames, actually.

Also, this thread needs to get added to the first post: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201239
Gravity mods still need to be discussed.

 

[Revven]

But don't you guys think you should be PM'ing Phantom Wings with all this info? Or whoever else is actually hacking?

Chibo already sent a PM to PW about what to change and how to possibly make the code shorter in lines. I also posted to PW about making a Hitstun modifier so we can just change the amount of frames on our own without having to ask PW about changing the hitstun length each time it isn't right or isn't enough (so we aren't bugging him).

 

[Fletch]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but are there plans to remove the auto-sweetspot while recovering? That might annoy me more than anything else in Brawl along with lack of DD.

 

[leafgreen386]

There's a chance of that happening if it doesn't screw over tethers AND if we also have enough code space left over after everything else, which we probably won't.

 

[zxeon]

One possible solution to the flinch problem is to use the animation replacement code to change all the flinch animantions to tumble ones. It's worth a try. I'd do it if I had the code.

 

[leafgreen386]

One possible solution to the flinch problem is to use the animation replacement code to change all the flinch animantions to tumble ones. It's worth a try. I'd do it if I had the code.

Woah. This actually sounds like it might be a viable solution... especially if we're using a secondary code that adds stun to the tumble animation. This could work out really really well. If you find the code or know where to look for it, be sure to post, because this sounds like it could be our magic solution.

 

[Starscream]

There's a chance of that happening if it doesn't screw over tethers AND if we also have enough code space left over after everything else, which we probably won't.

I really hope we can find space to disable the auto-sweet spotting. I honestly think it really ruins edge guarding.