Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[5ive]

Happy with the Pika changes, but still no Deadlands X_X.

 

[shanus]

Try out the slower one 5ive, see if it makes you happier :-P

 

[PKNintendo]

NO!!! PK Flash was nerfed. Why!!!

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Why was the angle of ivysaur's down throw changed? is it because it links into up b (and at higher percents, a DJ sweetspot up b?)

 

[Sails]

Overall quite pleased with this nightly change list. Good job! :bigthumbu

 

[weinzey]

whoah, lot of stuff going on in the new nightly.
few questions:
why buff wolfs recovery(his weak point)
why nerf robs kill setups (he isnt really considered good and that really hits him hard)
why the angle change on lucas dthrow? and is upthrow meant to kill now?
and why so ****ing many nerfs on luigi? admit it, u cant bear that he's good

edit: can we expect a pal port?

 

[PKNintendo]

What was wrong with PK Flash? I mean the speed buff, made it good. Without I would put the move below Melee Kirby. Seriously guys, when was this discussed?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

um, about luigi, his nair was TOO powerful. It had tons of hitstun, and killed at ridiculously low percentages. The power reduction is just making it less cheap.

 

[Sails]

What was wrong with PK Flash? I mean the speed buff, made it good. Without I would put the move below Melee Kirby. Seriously guys, when was this discussed?

It was made 50% bigger in a tradeoff. It doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me...

 

[weinzey]

um, about luigi, his nair was TOO powerful. It had tons of hitstun, and killed at ridiculously low percentages. The power reduction is just making it less cheap.

i pretty much agree with that, but there are like 5 other nerfs in there... why not take it step by step?

 

[PKNintendo]

It was made 50% bigger in a tradeoff. It doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me...

It was ALWAYS 50% bigger. It also had a 25% speed buff. Which was removed without any discussions. Bleh. My motivation to use the move is complete gone...



I wish more discussion were put into this besides users claiming the move is to cheap. (geez)

Edit: Or was it made 50% than before.

0_o

 

[Jimbo_G]

Can I get a HELL YES for the Wolf Up-B Buff! I was wondering if that was ever gonna be looked at.

I do have to ask though, why the nerf on Luigi's Down-Air? I never considered that having anything unusual about it.

The Mario Back-Throw buff is well appreciated though. It's original angle was far too high.

I'm looking forward to testing this out more!

 

[shanus]

Magus made all the changes to luigi, said it was awesome, I'll ask him to post.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

My guess is that luigi's kinda more balanced out now, per se.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ack, a PKT1 speed nerf too? What happened? I wouldn't mind the removal of infinite PKT1 if it was still as fast.

PK Flash isn't nearly as fun/good at all. It's like Melee's PK Flash which was a so-so move.

PSI Magnet is better though.

 

[weinzey]

-Dair meteor KBG to 7 from 100, BKB to 63 from 20, 1.4x size, Dmg to 8 from 11

maybe its a typo and kbg is 70? i dont think an easier to land meteor is a good replacement for a strong meteor.

Upthrow BKB to 72 from 70, KBG to 38 from 72, Angle 100 from 90

isnt dthrow still the better combo move and upthrow thus kinda useless, or am i misinterpreting?


edit: plz also explain why rob deserves nerfs
really small kbg on dthrow defined his grab game. and a stronger uthrow is almost mocking rob, now that u cant land a nair out of dthrow (not sure if thats di proof though)

editedit:

Ivysaur
-Downthrow angle to 85 from 80

does that mean dthrow>uair is now a true combo?

 

[Plum]

All I have to say is that I personally love Weegee's Nair right now.

Magnus might come in here to prove me wrong (the man is so smart with his Smash ) but Nair to Up B is even easier to pull off. (too good XD)
I don't know if that was its intention, but with only a decrease in KBG I'm finding myself just landing it at a bit higher percents then I would have prior. And the weak hit is still the same, which means all the weak Nair combos are still so sexy.

I'll miss how brokenly strong his upwards Fsmash was, but it still plenty of power.
That's kind of all I have right now on Weegee, but I'll get back on him later in the week.

But I will say good job to Magnus for making his changes seem so seamless (at least to me).

And I <3 Boozer's crawl so much. Now I'm just going to wait for Falco to face Boozer on WWR and see how much fun he has >:V

 

[PKNintendo]

Eh back.

The new psi magnet is nice, but to justify a sizeable nerf to PK Flash (Speed!!!) and
PKT1 25% speed up?

Can a compromise be done on PK Flash? (smaller hitbox/faster speed)
Like it's, 25% bigger and 25% faster?

PS: Also PKF is glitched, and the opponent (even CPU's) can easily get out.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

how is PKF glitched? they simply smash DI out of it. That is no glitch.

 

[PKNintendo]

how is PKF glitched? they simply smash DI out of it. That is no glitch.

No, you see sir, they get of out it way to early. (I had a cpu leave me at 10% from 0%!)

PS: Down and Upsmash are useable now!!!

 

[The Cape]

Ivysaur D throw angle change now make D throw to uair a legit combo as DI made the move completely useless before.

ROB changes were for this reason:
D throw has more KBG so that D throw > Nair works on FFers and Heavies only at KO percents but U throw was given more so that it kills floaties easier.
Basically it forces you to consider your options considering your opponent. Not really a nerf, just gives him more depth.

Luigi was rebuilt to be just as good, but have more mixups and ideas in his game, as Shanus said: Magus will post about it.

As for Ness, he is a great character as he is built now with a huge variety of playstyles while in the last nightly his playstyle was being pushed towards a few choice moves and actually lessened his depth. We tried to keep (and even increase) his depth with what we have here, while also making him a better character overall.

Also, Bowser is the BOMB!

 

[shanus]

Eh back.

The new psi magnet is nice, but to justify a sizeable nerf to PK Flash (Speed!!!) and
PKT1 25% speed up?

Can a compromise be done on PK Flash? (smaller hitbox/faster speed)
Like it's, 25% bigger and 25% faster?

PS: Also PKF is glitched, and the opponent (even CPU's) can easily get out.

PKF is deefinitely harder to SDI out, I haven't seen any glitch and played with it for a while today. Also, toy with the magnet more, I doubt you have seen its full potential yet.

 

[CountKaiser]

Eh back.

The new psi magnet is nice, but to justify a sizeable nerf to PK Flash (Speed!!!) and
PKT1 25% speed up?

Can a compromise be done on PK Flash? (smaller hitbox/faster speed)
Like it's, 25% bigger and 25% faster?

PS: Also PKF is glitched, and the opponent (even CPU's) can easily get out.

PK Flash is fine. The only speed ups to it were the startup and cooldown. Making it have less cooldown is useless, as it's suppsoed to be an edgeguard, and the startup buff wasn't very noticable, nor is it that gamechanging. Neither was the pkt1 speed increase.

Stop whining about PK Flash already.

 

[PKNintendo]

PKF is deefinitely harder to SDI out, I haven't seen any glitch and played with it for a while today. Also, toy with the magnet more, I doubt you have seen its full potential yet.

Well, you see let me describe it to you guys.


Okay

N=Ness
O=Opponent
__=Stage
->=PKF bolt
II=The fire pillar


N--> O
N--> I0I

The opponent rises upwards and escapes the move quickly. I've only tested against CPUs.
and Shanus, why was a PKF speed nerf warranted, and why weren't we notified in advance?

It could be just me.


Oh Ho ho!!!

I completely disagree about your point about PK flash.

I'd agree with this if it weren't for the part that the move is laggy as **** anyway.

No need to change it.
The startup and cooldown buffs were amazing. Completely unnecessary to take out. Even Viet agree's with me.

I've suffered the wrath of PK Flash from trying to Micheal Jackson him in vB. But it's still not something that needs to be changed considering how the move itself is probably only a placement higher than Melee Kirby. =V

The startup allowed it to get to it's second phase quicker. I hate it now that it takes longer to reach to opponent offstage.

The ending lag doesn't make Ness a sitting duck. Why was it nerfed Shanus?

PK Flash is fine. The only speed ups to it were the startup and cooldown. Making it have less cooldown is useless, as it's suppsoed to be an edgeguard, and the startup buff wasn't very noticable, nor is it that gamechanging. Neither was the pkt1 speed increase.

Stop whining about PK Flash already

If they were useless why were they removed?
I thought that were great additions to Ness movesets. It allowed PK Flash to be much more practical, and allowed PKT to be used to juggle (or semi juggled)

Edgeguarding with PK flash is harder, and PKT juggling is impossible. (not to mention the lag is annoying)


@ Cape. Removing things made Ness worse! I know it sounds brutish and sarcastic but it's true.

 

[weinzey]

ROB changes were for this reason:
D throw has more KBG so that D throw > Nair works on FFers and Heavies only at KO percents but U throw was given more so that it kills floaties easier.
Basically it forces you to consider your options considering your opponent. Not really a nerf, just gives him more depth.

sry, but imo thats very wrong. not being able to kill as early isnt more depth, its a good old nerf (nair should still kill quite some percents earlier than uthrow. i cant test it though).
also, why was the angle of his dash attack changed? if u dont want to combo into itself (which i can understand) increase the kb, but rob's da was a setup for utilt>uair and for usmash.
and he basically got nothing in return...

 

[camelot]

Wtf happened to Charizard's u-smash? It says it's supposed to link better, but I can't even hit with the second hit, unless the first one misses and they're above me. And, both hits only do 5% each.

 

[shanus]

Well, you see let me describe it to you guys.


Okay

N=Ness
O=Opponent
__=Stage
->=PKF bolt
II=The fire pillar


N--> O
N--> I0I

The opponent rises upwards and escapes the move quickly. I've only tested against CPUs.
and Shanus, why was a PKF speed nerf warranted, and why weren't we notified in advance?

It could be just me.


Oh Ho ho!!!

I completely disagree about your point about PK flash.

I'd agree with this if it weren't for the part that the move is laggy as **** anyway.

No need to change it.
The startup and cooldown buffs were amazing. Completely unnecessary to take out. Even Viet agree's with me.



The startup allowed it to get to it's second phase quicker. I hate it now that it takes longer to reach to opponent offstage.

The ending lag doesn't make Ness a sitting duck. Why was it nerfed Shanus?





If they were useless why were they removed?
I thought that were great additions to Ness movesets. It allowed PK Flash to be much more practical, and allowed PKT to be used to juggle (or semi juggled)

Edgeguarding with PK flash is harder, and PKT juggling is impossible. (not to mention the lag is annoying)


@ Cape. Removing things made Ness worse! I know it sounds brutish and sarcastic but it's true.

Because if the move is harder to SDI, then why should it be that much faster? All of these notifications you ask for are us developing a nightly build. I also think you seem to have a freak occurence on your hand, as I'm pretty solid with SDI (as isTheCape), and the initial hit should hold in significantly better, and the later hits should be easier to pop out of. It builds up more damage than before, easily. It might not hold the entire time, but it for instance holds FF'ers so much better than before.

 

[Lil'E]

Why was PKT1 slowed down? You can't do anything but recover(LOL) with it now.

Using the Super Armor from Ness's new PSI Magnet causes him to get pushed ~3/4 the distance of FD if used against Squirtle's Up-B. Maybe others but I didn't test it thoroughly with other multi-hit recoveries. It does the opposite of what it is supposed to do. Pushes Ness instead lol.

I'm glad the bat now only makes the ping at tipper.

His super armor seems so hard though. I can do Olimar's almost 100% of the time. I can barely pull off Ness's.

I must admit... I'd rather have kept the old Ness. Just gonna take some time getting used to this.

 

[PKNintendo]

Because if the move is harder to SDI, then why should it be that much faster? All of these notifications you ask for are us developing a nightly build. I also think you seem to have a freak occurence on your hand, as I'm pretty solid with SDI (as isTheCape), and the initial hit should hold in significantly better, and the later hits should be easier to pop out of. It builds up more damage than before, easily. It might not hold the entire time, but it for instance holds FF'ers so much better than before.

Yeah probably. I faced against Ivysaur only.

But you still didn't explain to me why PK Flash and PKT had to be nerfed. I really want the explanation...

Why was PKT1 slowed down? You can't do anything but recover(LOL) with it now.

There are 2 possible reasons.

1. The move was cheap.

Which incidently, it clearly wasn't. People claiming it to be had clearly not played against Ness extensively.

2. They forgot the implement them?
I really miss PK Flash's speed up.

If the reasoning for removing it was
''It made no difference''

What was the point? I mean the players who enjoyed... can still enjoy, while the players who ignored it can ignore it.

 

[shanus]

sry, but imo thats very wrong. not being able to kill as early isnt more depth, its a good old nerf (nair should still kill quite some percents earlier than uthrow. i cant test it though).
also, why was the angle of his dash attack changed? if u dont want to combo into itself (which i can understand) increase the kb, but rob's da was a setup for utilt>uair and for usmash.
and he basically got nothing in return...

Downthrow Nair is a legit combo on a substantial portion of the cast, and still is. The change was meant to make it so it was a bit less potent in that (he is clearly a top 10 character) where he has a bit more variety in throw options in his game. His f and bthrow are both good, but his downthrow was a pretty overwhelming option given its set ups to uair, fair, nair, etc.

This new change gives more life into uthrow and hopefully will see it used more often for greater mixups.

Regarding DA, it won't self link nearly as much anymore unless they DI up. With that said, it links better into edgeguards as well, so its not really much of a nerf.

 

[PKNintendo]

As for Ness, he is a great character as he is built now with a huge variety of playstyles while in the last nightly his playstyle was being pushed towards a few choice moves and actually lessened his depth. We tried to keep (and even increase) his depth with what we have here, while also making him a better character overall.

Well...

Fair WAS OP. Good thing it was changed. There was nothing wrong with PKT.
You didn't see players worth their salt spamming it. Nor did you players spamming PK Flash.

What makes me mad was the fact that PK Flash went from being a good edgeguard (for me) To being merely decent and sometimes mediocre.

I can live with PKT1 speed up, but Brawl + PK flash was amazing for several reasons.

 

[shanus]

Yeah probably. I faced against Ivysaur only.

But you still didn't explain to me why PK Flash and PKT had to be nerfed. I really want the explanation...

Thats why, with the knockback boost on Ivysaur for fire damage :-P

PKT, alright. SO PKT1 endlag was cut in the previous versions due to removing the special fall animation. What happened was that the move normally functions as this:

PKT1 is actionID 11A. It then proceeds into 11B which has about 5-8 frames of lag which then goes into specialfall. (PKT2 also goes into 11B at the end). When we removed the specialfall type, we removed the entrance into 11B and had it go directly into normal fall. That is why it had like no endlag before, but has it again now. The move still has utility, but also is significantly less spammable than before as well. We give more options, and in exchange, made them less ridiculous.

PK Flash change was fairly negligible. I for one didnt think the speed change needed to be removed, but in playing with it, I actually didn't see much of a change. I believe only a few frames were added in that different actionIDs start between the startup and when the projectile is first visible. This means you, the end user, shouldnt see that big of a difference. Whatever utility it had before, it probably still has now.

Edit: We found we made a mistake with Charizard upsmash, we copy pasted twice and led to fail!

 

[PKNintendo]

Thats why, with the knockback boost on Ivysaur for fire damage :-P

PKT, alright. SO PKT1 endlag was cut in the previous versions due to removing the special fall animation. What happened was that the move normally functions as this:

PKT1 is actionID 11A. It then proceeds into 11B which has about 5-8 frames of lag which then goes into specialfall. (PKT2 also goes into 11B at the end). When we removed the specialfall type, we removed the entrance into 11B and had it go directly into normal fall. That is why it had like no endlag before, but has it again now. The move still has utility, but also is significantly less spammable than before as well. We give more options, and in exchange, made them less ridiculous.

Spammability is poor way to play but I more or less agree..

PK Flash change was fairly negligible. I for one didnt think the speed change needed to be removed, but in playing with it, I actually didn't see much of a change. I believe only a few frames were added in that different actionIDs start between the startup and when the projectile is first visible. This means you, the end user, shouldnt see that big of a difference. Whatever utility it had before, it probably still has now.

I completely and utterly disagree. With the idea too. So if I think an idea's pointless, you just chuck it? I KNOW you had a reason for dealing with. My problem with it was that it was 25% speed increase, quite large, and it did feel different for me.


The new PK Flash horizontal movement is slower.
But I digress, why was it removed? If you didn't notice a difference, why change it?
The user's who DID notice would still appreciate it. Your effectively screwing them (and me) over.

It just doesn't make sense to me.[
10 characters.

 

[JCaesar]

But I digress, why was it removed? If you didn't notice a difference, why change it?
The user's who DID notice would still appreciate it. Your effectively screwing them (and me) over.

It just doesn't make sense to me.[
10 characters.

Because Mario can't walk.

Due to too many frame speed changes. Pointless ones need to be removed until we get the new engine.

 

[PKNintendo]

Because Mario can't walk.

Due to too many frame speed changes. Pointless ones need to be removed until we get the new engine.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3162166


PS:Do you guys think you'll be able to add it back in the new version?


PS2:

PKT1 is actionID 11A. It then proceeds into 11B which has about 5-8 frames of lag which then goes into specialfall. (PKT2 also goes into 11B at the end). When we removed the specialfall type, we removed the entrance into 11B and had it go directly into normal fall. That is why it had like no endlag before, but has it again now.

So your saying that the previous update (which stated that it was 25%) was a lie to hid the fact that it was utter luck that we Ness mains got the buff?

 

[Swordplay]

Edit: NVM

Apparently fixed 7-20 changed something......

Will repost once I get a chance to test (wii is down)

 

[Shell]

whoah, lot of stuff going on in the new nightly.
few questions:
....
why the angle change on lucas dthrow? and is upthrow meant to kill now?
....

Throw mods were something we were planning for Lucas for a while now.

The U-throw is supposed to kill now, yes. It'll kill Mario on the middle of F.D around 148% with DI. However, Lucas has an incredible pummel, so if you can land a nearly guaranteed 4 pummels (12%) on him at high percents, the actual killing percent is 136% as of when you grab him, plus or minus depending on your opponents break out skills.

The d-throw was tricky. As you're probably aware, it stops setting up for anything good by 40-50ish% on many characters... and that's his best setup throw. Now, the problem with just decreasing the KB growth on it is that if it's much less, you can land a guaranteed U-smash on a disturbingly high amount of the cast into mid-high percents. The only way to make the move better is to change it. I suggested making it more of a tech-chasing move, as that will play to his ground strengths. Shanus came up with the throw in the set, and although I haven't tested it extensively yet, I think it will compliment his game quite nicely.

 

[Alphatron]

The old fair Ness had outranged Zelda's fsmash. Gonna try out the new nightly soon.

 

[stingers]

Lucas' throws are useful now? I can dig it

 

[Shadic]

I'd really like Sonic's level back on the Stage Select screen, at least SOMEWHERE. Kinda lame that Bigblue is up there, but Green Hill isn't.

And am I correct, or are Hannenbow and Green Hill the only removed stages? If so, wtf.